Hello James and Thomas:

Here’s what AI (Copilot) says about your latest exchange: “The Core Disagreement- Thomas: Fatalistic, mystical, deterministic. Believes destiny is fixed, enlightenment is emptiness, and God’s call cannot be resisted.

“James: More open, relational, and gentle. Believes God invites freely, people have choice, and living in harmony with the universe is beautiful.

“By the end, they’re not really debating ideas anymore — they’re accusing each other of lying, which shows the conversation broke down.

“In plain terms: Thomas says ‘God’s call is irresistible, fate is fixed, and true freedom is dropping the mind into emptiness.’ James replies ‘No, God invites freely, you have choice, and living naturally with body and mind is beautiful.’

“Then they start calling each other liars because they can’t reconcile their views.”

Personally, I (Anita) 👍 James’s views over Thomas’s 👎, but I won’t call either one “a liar”..

So, “Real Spirituality” requires 2 boys NOT fighting on the playground.. ?

Anita

Hi Peter

No worries ❤️ It’s okay 😊

Sorry I have been so busy. I don’t have a lot of time to reply to messages.

I really appreciate your thoughts and agree with many. Thank you for sharing! ❤️

The only thing that I would add, is a willingness to suffer. To let all arise and pass in its natural rhythm.

❤️

Hi Thomas

I understand you my friend! ❤️ My husband being Buddhist, my own experiences of meditation through him and his teacher.

I enjoyed the flag, wind mind metaphor. All of the above. 😊

Settling of the mind and body is a beautiful thing. Bringing the gifts of meditation, outside of meditation is a wonderful thing. ❤️

I daresay that none of us here can claim to be enlightened. Still it is nice to share, connect and get to know one another. 😊

You are you, James is James, Peter is Peter, Anita is Anita and I am me. I’m thankful that we are all here learning from each other. ❤️

Hello Everyone:

From Free Will in Necessity and Contingency (planksip. org):

“The human experience is a constant navigation between what must be and what might be. At the heart of this navigation lies one of philosophy’s most enduring and profound debates: the struggle between Fate and Free Will, framed by the powerful concepts of Necessity and Contingency…

The concept of Fate posits a predetermined sequence of events, an inescapable destiny that unfolds regardless of individual desires or efforts. It often implies a cosmic blueprint, a grand design, or an inexorable chain of cause and effect that dictates every outcome…

Deterministic Worldview: Philosophical fatalism is closely allied with determinism, the view that all events, including human actions, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. If every event is the inevitable consequence of prior events, then where does choice fit in?

In stark contrast stands Free Will, the cherished belief that humans possess the capacity to make genuine choices, to initiate actions, and to steer their own course. It is the feeling of agency, the conviction that ‘I chose this,’ that underpins our sense of moral responsibility and personal achievement.

Many philosophers argue that Free Will is a prerequisite for morality. If we are not free to choose between right and wrong, how can we be held accountable for our actions?

Self-Determination: The idea of self-determination, of shaping one’s character and future through conscious decisions, is a powerful motivator and a cornerstone of human dignity.

To fully appreciate the debate between Fate and Free Will, we must understand the fundamental distinction between Necessity and Contingency. These concepts provide the philosophical framework for discussing the nature of existence itself.

Necessity refers to anything that must be the case, that cannot be otherwise. An event is necessary if its non-occurrence is impossible, either logically, physically, or metaphysically…

Contingency, on the other hand, describes events or states of affairs that may or may not be. A contingent event is one whose non-occurrence is possible; it depends on other factors, and its opposite is conceivable. While not purely random, contingent events often involve elements that are not strictly predetermined, leaving room for possibility, chance, or genuine choice.

The existence of contingency is crucial for arguments supporting Free Will. If our choices are genuinely contingent, then they are not necessitated by prior causes, allowing for genuine agency.

Ancient Perspectives on Fate and Will-… Stoics like Epictetus and Seneca emphasized the freedom of our internal will – our ability to choose our attitude and response to events, even if the events themselves are fated. Amor fati (love of one’s fate) was their path to tranquility.

Aristotle: In his Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle explored voluntary and involuntary actions, laying groundwork for understanding choice. He acknowledged that while some things are necessary, many human actions are contingent, dependent on deliberation and choice, thus affirming a degree of will…

Baruch Spinoza: A radical determinist, Spinoza in his Ethics argued that everything in the universe, including human actions, follows from the eternal and necessary nature of God (or Nature). Free Will is an illusion, born of our ignorance of the true causes of our desires. True freedom lies in understanding this necessity…

* Fatalism: Events are predetermined, All events are ultimately necessary. (Ancient Greeks, some religious views)
* Determinism: All events are caused by prior events. All events are necessary consequences. (Spinoza, Laplace)
* Libertarianism: Humans have genuine free will. Human choices are genuinely contingent.(Kant, many contemporary philosophers)…

The debate over Fate vs. Free Will, and the underlying framework of Necessity and Contingency, carries profound implications for how we live our lives and understand our place in the cosmos.

Moral Responsibility: If all our actions are fated or necessitated, can we truly be held responsible for our choices? The concept of justice, praise, and blame hinges on the belief in genuine will.

Personal Growth and Effort: Why strive for self-improvement or pursue difficult goals if the outcome is already written? The belief in contingency fuels our ambition and effort… Conversely, Free Will allows us to actively create our own meaning and purpose…

Conclusion: An Enduring Inquiry- The tension between Fate and Free Will, illuminated by the concepts of Necessity and Contingency, remains one of philosophy’s most fertile grounds for inquiry. There are no easy answers, and perhaps, no single definitive resolution. Instead, the journey through these ideas forces us to confront fundamental questions about causality, human agency, moral responsibility, and the very nature of reality. Whether we lean towards the comforting order of necessity or the empowering potential of contingency, this enduring debate continues to shape our understanding of what it means to be human, to make choices, and to live a life imbued with purpose.”

I definitely want to think about this debate further. But for now, I am definitely a big fan of Free Will but I realize that awareness of what’s behind our feelings, preferences, actions.. even our thinking (that which we haven’t chosen) is necessary for the exercise of Free Will.

For example: a child abused by a parent may grow up to be a people pleasing adult. The people pleasing is not free will, it’s a consequence of the unchosen circumstances & other people’s behaviors.

To change this behavior, the person needs to be aware of where it came from and imagine a different way. The people pleasing is a Necessity (cannot be otherwise) until awareness kicks in and the people pleasing becomes “Contingency” (can be otherwise).

Anita

Hi everyone

I wonder if all these labels are simply the mind insisting on complexity, a restless attempt to weave patterns where simplicity already breathes. It forgets the subtle truth: the raft must be left behind before the shore can be touched.

Then I wonder, does the mind truly forget, or does the self know, deep down, that stepping off the raft would resolve the questions… only to find such a step too frightening?

For a lifetime I have lived in thought, circling the same waters, repeating the same motions. And know I’m surprised to admit that these games of the self interest me less and less.

The student asked, “Is the shore reached by words?”
The master replied, “Words are the raft.”
The student pressed, “Then must I carry them forever?”
The master said, “Step off before you arrive, or you will never stand.”