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anitaParticipantHello yet again, Confused:
I would like to reply more thoroughly tomorrow, Mon morning (it’s late Sun evening here), but thoughts that cross my mind this evening are:
“Having the warmth in my memories but not being able to feel them is killing me because I did feel amazing with her”- from my experience, too much of “the amazing” I felt was wishful thinking, as in someone was just about making it all-good for me forevermore.
“U just ride the waves and let it pass until u manage it easier every time?”- not really, it’s more like I expect way less from people, no longer expecting to be rescued by anyone (nor do I expect to rescue anyone), understanding that people are struggling much like I do. That we all struggle.
Now, what can we do to help each other as equally (more or less) struggling individuals vs ‘How can you rescue me?’
I hope I just made sense. Please let me know. I’ll reply further tomorrow
š back to you,
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHello again, Confused:
The fact that your body responded well to her in person, and that you still want clarity, connection, and honesty, shows that the real you is still there. You didnāt lose your feelings ā theyāre just buried under stress, fear, and pressure. They can come back when your system feels safe again.
It also makes sense that the conversation about moving countries hit you hard. Thatās a huge thing for anyone, and even more so for someone whoās sensitive to change and uncertainty.
Youāre not alone in this. Many people with similar histories experience the same pushāpull, the same shutdown, the same confusion. And they do get better with time, understanding, and the right support. Youāre already doing the right things: being honest, setting boundaries, getting therapy, and trying to understand yourself instead of running away. Thatās strength.
I too lived in a chaotic, violent, unpredictable home and was dissociated/ shut down, living in a fog, exhausted a lot of the time, probably more than you. What a relief it is for me that now, it’s a thing of the past. I’m still anxious (it’s built into my body), but I am no longer Confused. I’ll be glad to share more about how it’s been for me, just let me know.
Give yourself some grace, Confused. Youāre not losing your mind ā youāre healing old patterns. And healing can feel messy and scary, but itās still healing. Your feelings can return. Your clarity can become more than ever. Your sense of connection can return. Nothing is āoverā just because youāre numb (or even repulsed) right now.
Youāre doing better than you think. One step at a time is enough š
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantDear Alessa:
Went on a 2nd walk with Bogart. Right now he’s chewing on a new bone toy and loving it. (No taproom today or tomorrow).
Thank you for writing me a note even though you’re really tired. I hope you have a restful sleep before the morrow.
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantJames, Oct 14: “My Dear Friends, To find out actually what takes place when you die you must die. This isnāt a joke. You must die ā not physically but psychologically, inwardly, die to the things you have cherished and to the things you are bitter about… To die is to have a mind that is completely empty of itself, empty of its daily longing, pleasure; and agonies…
“Death is a renewal, a mutation, in which thought does not function at all because thought is old. When there is death there is something totally new. Freedom from the known is death, and then You are truly living…
“‘(Life) doesnāt work according to your expectations. It has itās own flow…
“Die to live fully, freely. Even smell of roses will be completely different.”-
I think I am getting it, understanding in a deeper way than ever before. Actually I didn’t understand at all when I first read these words right above.
To let go or loosen the hold likes and dislikes, preferences, desires, wishes and bitterness .. and expectations; die to the ego and surrender to the flow of life, the flow that’s so much deeper and calming than the agitated ego.
Thank you, James. I would like to continue to quote from your messages and process over time.
šš¤š Anita
anitaParticipantDear Confused (Part 2/2):
People with disorganized attachment are more likely to experience dorsal vagal shutdown in relationships.
What is the ‘dorsal vagal shutdown state’?- This term is relatively new (mid-90s). It comes from the polyvagal theory of the nervous system.
The Freeze response to perceived danger = ‘I canāt move.’ (tension, alert immobility)
The Dorsal vagal shutdown = ‘I canāt feel.’ (numbness, collapsed immobility; the deeper version)The dorsal vagal shutdown state is the bodyās emergency powerāsaving mode when something feels too overwhelming to handle. When something feels too overwhelming or impossible to escape, the nervous system slows everything down ā emotions, energy, heart rate, and awareness ā to protect you. Itās the bodyās way of ‘turning down the lights’ so you donāt feel the full impact of the stress.
In this state, people feel: emotionally numb, disconnected from themselves and others, unable to feel love or joy, exhausted, foggy, spaced out.. like theyāre watching life from far away. The heart rate slows, breathing becomes shallow, the thinking brain goes offline, the body releases natural numbing chemicals, the system shuts down. Itās a survival reflex ā the same one animals use when they āplay dead.ā
*** The trigger for you was likely the conversation about moving countries. You described a very specific moment: she asked if you could move to her country. She didnāt mention moving to yours and she gave an example of a failed LDR. For someone with abandonment fears, this conversation can feel like pressure, threat of loss, fears of making a lifeāchanging decision which may be the wrong choice, fear of sacrificing too much, fear of feeling trapped in a real-life situation or relationship.
Your nervous system likely interpreted this as something like ‘This is dangerous. Too much risk. Too much uncertainty’, which led to the dorsal vagal shutdown state. The body said ‘This is too much, I’m shutting down!”.
* LDRs involve big future decisions. Someone eventually has to: move countries, leave family, change jobs and uproot their life. For someone with abandonment fears or disorganized attachment, this is massive pressure.
* * * From what you shared about what she said to you, she framed the future in a oneāsided way. She talked about you moving, not the two of you discussing options. She used an example of a failed LDR which can feel like a subtle warning or pressure. She didnāt reassure you- She didnāt say: ‘Weāll figure it out together’, ‘Weāll explore both options.’ ‘Iām open to moving too.’ Instead, she put the responsibility on you. āwell, you never askedā is defensive, not collaborative. So, yes, her comments were a legitimate trigger.
Perhaps you should have a calm (as much as possible), honest and open conversation with her about this..?
Your question: āIs this real or am I blocked?ā- The answer (in psychological terms in my best understanding) is: you are blocked. Not suddenly ‘over’ the relationship.
*** Coming out of the dorsal vagal shutdown state is not a mental decision ā itās a physiological thawing process. The nervous system has to slowly shift from ‘collapse’ back into ‘safe connection’ when you feel that you’re not in danger anymore. I imagine that having an honest, open conversation with her where (and if) she doesn’t get defensive, doesn’t come across as threatening (mentioning failed LDRs), and sharing responsibility/ being collaborative, and reassuring- will help!
Also helpful: having a calm environment, reduced pressure or conflict overall. positive, supportive connections with people, a daily routine.. exercise, particularly gentle movement like stretching, yoga or Tai Chi.
Coming out of freeze or shutdown is like a frozen lake slowly melting. Itās not instant. Itās not a choice. Itās a process you can trust if you understand how it works.
I hope this is somewhat helpful š
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantDear Confused:
The experience you described (I researched it this morning), is indeed a classic for a dissociative shutdown triggered by attachment stress.
Everything you describes fits a pattern:
* Sudden emotional numbing
* Loss of feelings for everyone, not just the partner
* Depression (not leaving bed, barely showering), apathy, inability to enjoy anything
* Cognitive fog (missing words, feeling āfrozenā)
* Rumination and panic about the loss of feelings,
* History of chaotic or frightening childhood attachment
* Fear of abandonment
* A triggering conversation about major life changesWhen someone truly falls out of love, they still feel joy in other areas, still feel connection to other people and emotional warmth. But you say that you feel apathetic towards everyone right now, not just her.
Thatās emotional numbing.
You wrote: “How does my body relate this relationship to the one with my mother? I canāt comprehend that, I saw no similarities there..”
You childhood experience is not only relevant but extremely relevant to what you described. You mentioned a childhood of violence, chaos, unpredictable affection and emotional instability- This is the exact environment that creates disorganized attachment, hypervigilance, fear of abandonment and dissociation (emotional shutdown under stress) as a coping mechanism.
Children in chaotic homes often learn to shut down emotionally when things get overwhelming. This pattern often reappear in adulthood ā especially in intimate relationships.
You wrote, “I am disorganized attached”. Attachment styles form in childhood based on how caregivers respond to us. Disorganized attachment develops when a childās caregiver is frightening, unpredictable, chaotic, sometimes loving- sometimes harmful and emotionally unstable.
The child faces an impossible situation: ‘The person I need for safety is also the person I fear.’ So, the childās nervous system becomes confused about how to connect. In adulthood, this often shows up as: * Intense fear of abandonment (you mentioned “the fear of abandonment”) * Craving closeness but panicking when it appears * Sudden emotional shutdowns * Difficulty trusting stability * Feeling unsafe in love, and * Dissociation during emotional intimacy.
Itās the nervous system trying to protect someone who grew up in emotional chaos.
– I will continue in the next post.
š¤ AnitaĀ Ā
anitaParticipantThe plot thickens.. I’ll process what you added and reply Sun morning (It’s Sat night here).
anitaParticipantDear Alessa:
“I am a proud mama. 𤔠thumbs up for mama Alessa š¤š¤š¤!
“I think itās understandable to be angry about not getting an apology after all of that abuse.”- that ship (the apology ship) has shipped long, long ago.
“In my experience, people who donāt want to acknowledge the severity of the pain theyāve caused have a difficult time apologising. True remorse means feeling the pain. For people who are so triggered by pain, they try and avoid it preferring to live in the comfort of denial. And yet, it cannot be denied entirely. I believe these things eat away at them and further their self-hatred. š¤”-
I understand the difficulty in self-reflecting and holding oneself accountable. I understand that bad people have their own struggles. By bad, I mean people who repeatedly harm FOR DECADES, blaming their victims.
“I donāt view intrusive thoughts as a genuine threat. Please donāt worry, talking about these things isnāt upsetting me”- Thank you š
“Iām sorry that your mother threatened you like that. Mine did too. It is a terrifying experience to feel like your life is in danger with your own mother. Things should never be this way. š¤”- Yes, things shouldn’t be this way.
šš¤š Anita
anitaParticipantDear Alessa:
Well, Bogart and I went on our very first walk together late morning, 3.5 miles (about 5.5 km) up and down the hills around here. Bogart did very well, he peed and pooped 3 times (first time in a couple of days, I was worried), he rolled on the grass and had the time of his life! Then took him to the taproom and he did very well reciprocating people’s warm welcomes. I wish there were dog visitors there this evening, so that he’d have dog time, but there weren’t any (very slow there this evening).
Yes, I agree, itās not good to hit a child. Yes, she was wrong.
“I remember you said that she identified with villains on tv. Iām curious what she felt about protagonists? I only ask because Iām trying to get a sense of the twisted logic. Itās okay if you donāt want to talk about that. I donāt want to make you uncomfortable. š¤”-
Thank you for your sensitivity, precious, positively special Alessa. I’m impressed that you remember what I shared so long ago. Yes, she admired successful villains and looked down on protagonists who were less attractive/ less powerful than the villains. She admired POWER.
The accurate framing would be that.. good people need each other to help each other. The enemy are those trying to divide, to antagonize, to accuse and tear down people who are already struggling. People who are taking advantage of honest people struggling- so to tear them down so to feel superior.
“It is heartbreaking to hear how much you were controlled. Not allowed to talk to others, not allowed to express pain when hurt. Not even allowed to dress. A prisoner in your own body. š¤ Iām so sorry for all you suffered. š¤”- Thank you so very much, Alessa š¤š¤š¤
“You are free now. Perhaps the opposite of what she wanted is a kind of freedom from her? š¤”- Autonomy, Agency, Independence, Self-Determination. Yes, Alessa, all of that. How dare she HUMILIATE me as much as she did..? How did she dare? (Well, she did, simply because it was easy, no one to stand up for me.
Freedom from her equals freedom from being humiliated, shamed, guilt-tripped.. freedom from being shamed extensively- not to Correct, but to Enjoy, as my shame/ pain was her pleasure, her vengeance!
š¤š¤š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantDear Alessa:
Thank you for your two messages, this one and the one you submitted in my thread. I want to respond to both later tonight. I am looking forward to doing so!
š¤ š¤ š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantThank you, James. I would like to process your input over time further tomorrow morning.
šš¤š Anita
anitaParticipantHi again, Confused:
About the How (continuing my last post to you): When the brain senses danger ā emotional or physical ā it first tries to protect you with FightāorāFlight. But if the situation feels impossible to escape and there’s no way to fight the source of danger, the brain flips into a Freeze or numb state. (Fight, Flight and Freeze are the 3 responses to danger in the animal world)
Chemically, stress hormones like cortisol surge and then drop, the brain releases natural painānumbing chemicals, and the thinking part of the brain goes quiet. At the same time, the nervous system slows the heart rate and breathing to conserve energy. This combination makes you feel far away, disconnected, or unreal.
Itās not a choice ā itās the bodyās builtāin way of protecting you from overwhelming feelings by temporarily turning down your awareness. When the body senses safety again, the nervous system slowly āturns back on,ā and you begin to feel present and connected once more.
– Now, what’s the danger that caused the recent dissociation? Could be a memory of danger that was triggered. You mentioned “violence and arguing constantly” in regard to growing up with your mother. Not something you were able to run away from because you were a minor stuck living with her (the Flight response was not available to you),and I assume you didn’t Fight her, at least not successfully, so gone was your Fight option. What remained was Freeze response (dissociation) .
I would like to read your thoughts about this..?
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHello Confused:
“that changed in one morning and I don’t understand why and how.”-
Yesterday you wrote: “In my case too, the relationship with my mother was very chaotic, violence and arguing constantly, throwing some awkward affection here and there, then rinse and repeat. I cant remember if I was dissociating when I was a kid”-
My best guess is that the dissociation you’re currently experiencing is your body remembering (and re-experiencing) the dissociation you felt a lot of as a child, felt and forgot that you did.
The “why”- because you need to heal as much as possible from the chaotic relationship with your mother.
I’d like to write more later about the “how”. Please feel free to offer me your thoughts about what I wrote here.
š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantDear James:
I want to process and study your short but strong answer thoroughly, including what you shared previously:
At death- my ego, personal identity, psychological self; my mind, beliefs, experiences, memories, fears, desires.. the sense of “I”- all these disappear. There’s no continuation of me.
That absence of self ā the total emptiness ā the “Nothing left”- is not a loss but a liberation. In mystical traditions (Sufi, Zen, Advaita), ānothingnessā is not negative. It is pure freedom, pure peace, pure being- the end of illusion, the end of suffering.
* In Advaita, it is the return to Brahman (pure consciousness). In Buddhism, it is nirvana ā the extinguishing of the individual flame.
* In Sufism (Islamic Mysticism, a mystical tradition within Islam) ā FanÄā means the annihilation of the ego. It is followed by baqÄā ā abiding in God. Famous Sufi expressions: āDie before you die.ā (Meaning: let the ego die so the True Self can awaken.)
āWhen I vanished from myself, I appeared in God.ā= When the ego disappears, what remains is the divine reality. Not a personal God in the sky. Not a deity with a personality. Not a separate being. In Sufi mysticism, āGodā (Allah) is: the One reality, the infinite, the source of all existence, the ocean into which the wave returns
So āappearing in Godā means: The individual self dissolves into the infinite. Itās the moment when: the boundary between āmeā and āthe worldā dissolves, the sense of separation disappears, only unity remains
A metaphor: Imagine a wave on the ocean. The wave thinks it is separate. It has a name, a shape, a story. But when it collapses, it returns to the ocean. The wave āvanishes from itselfā and āappears in the ocean.ā
The wave (individual self) rises (lives) and falls (dies). When it falls, the wave disappears. But the ocean (impersonal being) remains. The wave was never separate from the ocean in the first place. Death is the wave returning to the ocean.
In simple terms, the personal self ends, the impersonal reality (you called it “pure consciousness”) remains, and that impersonal reality is freedom.
Here is a collection of.. The Best of James’s, I’ll call it: “Stillness is the absence of mental chatterāthe ever-present silence, untouched and eternal. Therefore, Stillness is the end of grasping. Grasping means reaching, clinging, holding to thought, desire, fear, or hope. When the grasp relaxes, mind becomes quiet, like an open hand.” (Aug 27, 2025)
“Radical acceptance is not passive. It is the deepest strength. When fear comes, you donāt resist it; you let it be seen. When anger arises, you donāt judge it; you allow it to pass like a cloud. Even danger, even uncertainty, welcomed without resistance, they lose their sting. The paradox is: by accepting everything, the heart opens completely, and care flows naturally. You donāt ‘try’ to care love, compassion, and right action simply arise.” (Aug 28).
“For me, love is the complete acceptance of everything and anything exactly as it is.” (Sept 1)
“I see bad people like babies. They came into this world completely pure, like clean water, innocent and untouched. Everything they becameātheir personality, their habits, their ways of thinkingāwas shaped by their environment, family, society, and life circumstances… The person I see now is just the result of everything around them, not something they consciously chose in the beginning. Understanding this doesnāt mean I approve of harmful behavior, but it allows me to look at them without hatred or judgment.” (Sept 1)
“Love is the highest and purest service we can offer to humanity. Itās not about recognition, reward, or doing things for showāitās about giving, understanding, and being fully present for others. When we act from love, every small gesture, every word, every act of kindness becomes meaningful. Helping others with love is not just about changing their lives, it transforms us as well. Love sees beyond faults, beyond appearances, beyond judgment. It connects us to the essence of people, to their struggles, their joys, their humanity. When we serve from love, we serve without expectation, without ego, without thinking ‘I am doing something great.’ The act itself becomes the gift, and the impact spreads silently, like a ripple in water. In this way, love is not just an emotionāit is the truest service we can offer to the world.” (Sept 1)
“When the so-called self dissolves, something different happens. The body and the universe are no longer two. In that, there is no cold detachment ā the body inevitably becomes an instrument of Love. Compassion, care, listening, and presence are no longer choices of the ego, but the natural action of Life itself… So yes, the memories, the scars, the stories remain in the body, but without identification they donāt rule the being. They are seen, felt, and even shared with tenderness, yet not carried as a burden of ‘me’.” (Sept 3).
“Every breath is heaven. Every fear is hell. Heaven and hell are words, stories, warnings, not geography. Life itself is the teacher, and every moment is the lesson.” (Oct 6)
There’s more to quote, but I’ll stop here. I want to reread the above and continue to process later. Thank you, James. I am feeling more of an appreciation to your wisdom today than I ever felt before and I want to apply it more, much more, in my daily living in the forums and in real-life.
ššš š¤ Anita
anitaParticipantIn regard to her message, “you all are perpetratorsā- I tried to be on her side by never trusting anyone/ be against everyone (and therefore, be WITH her), but no matter what, I was never allowed to be WITH her. No matter how much I rejected everyone, I was not to be one with her-
It never happened that I was one with her, as a team of two.. no matter how much I desired it to be that way.
As she experienced it, I was Always Enemy, NO MATTER how much I desired it to be otherwise. She just wouldn’t let anyone in as a friend or ally.
In her world there needed to be just one good, victimized entity (herself), and everyone else (her daughters, her grandchild)- terribly inadequate disappointments.
She’s been nothing but a terrible person to those born to her and who loved her the most. She was the WORST to those few who loved her the most, and in so being, she destroyed SO MUCH in those few who loved her the most.
Anita
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Though I run this site, it is not mine. It's ours. It's not about me. It's about us. Your stories and your wisdom are just as meaningful as mine. 