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anitaParticipantDear Alessa:
Good to read your response.
I was wondering đ¤, when you say:
“Everyone is different… Who is to say what is right or wrong?”-
Do you mean that there is no objective right and wrong? That right and wrong is all subjective?
đ¤ đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHi Peter:
I need time to process the Form and Love points in your 2 recent posts. From initial reading and using my phone (so, no researching things), “The quiet courage to embody (Dharma)” stands out.
Which I believe you have done again and again in these forums. I’ve seen honesty, transparency and openess in your replies, again and again.
As far (or as close) as I can go, I ask myself: how can I embody the principles (Form) I believe in, how can I be more transparent? what am I still hiding?
About “deserved shame”- I have learned that shame for many people, maybe most (or all?) is so difficult to experience that when it comes to hoping to influence a person (a “sinner” in Christian terms) to awaken and be/ do better- shame needs to be applied in the smallest quantities. Too much and it turns people away from any possible Awakening.
I hope đ I am making sense, Peter?
đ¤ đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHey Confused:
Before I read your recent post I came across something online that made me think of you, it said: “Fantasy is safe; real love is risky… Real love requires honesty, courage, being seen and letting go of control… In Fantasy Love, the other person becomes a symbol, not a human being.”
You wrote somewhere in this thread in regard to the relationship with her: “the only stress was taking the trip to meet this girl.”
Peace and Fantasy coexisted in the 8-month long distance between you and her BEFORE you met her for the first (and only) time.
Then within the short 3-day visit, Reality interrupted Fantasy (first stress) and you’ve been distressed ever since.
Within the short 3-day visit, she wasn’t comfortable being physically intimate with you and you shared with her, during those 3 days, that you had doubts about her and the relationship.
I can’t find the post where you shared the above, must have been a very short description of those 3 days. I did find this quote: “I visited her once in the country she is studying”, and my Jan 3 post to you:
“THREE DAYS in real-life connection is just.. not much more than fantasy and make-believe. I mean, REALLY, you were in her real-lifeâs presence, and she, in yours- for parts of a THREE days segment of time. What would that be.. 15 HOURS?”
There was never a real-life honeymoon phase where the two of you felt comfortable and sure about the relationship.
In your most recent post less than 4 hours ago, you wrote: “I feel like I will blow my chances of building something with a great person”-
You often referred to her as “great”, a vague, non-specific, non-personal term fitting a fantasy figure.
Something else I noticed upon re-reading is in regard to what you wrote here (and please feel comfortable to not answer if it’d distress you too much): “I was the one she (your mother) was leaning on while confessing her issues with my father, relationship things and dislikes, to which I would only respond ‘just break up’ because that was the only thing making sense to me at the age of 11.”- sounds like emotional incest. Did you ever feel that way?
Continued quote: “… Since I am a male, I would fight back and things would escalate pretty badly, especially after my body started developing and I was able to overpower her.”-
There were physical fights between you and her… how did those fights look like? Feel like? (Again, please feel free to not answer if it’d distress you too much)
đ¤ đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHey Confused: I am working on a reply for you but it will take some time because I am (again) rereading your past posts.
anitaParticipantThank you, Thomas đđđ
Commentary by Hogen Bays, Roshi of the Great Vow Zen Monastery on âIf You Love, Love Openly” (from 101 Zen Stories):
1. Zen is about openness, not secrecy: The monk wanted to hide his desire. EâShun refused secrecy.
Her public question â âIf you love me, why not embrace me here?â â exposes the monkâs shame and fear.The commentary explains that Zen practice encourages transparency, not hiding parts of ourselves.
2. Desire isnât the problem â hiding it is:
The monkâs desire is human. The problem is that he wanted to act on it in secret, outside the community, outside honesty.
EâShunâs response cuts through the secrecy. She forces the monk to see his desire, his fear, his attachment to reputation, his internal conflict
Zen uses moments like this to reveal what weâre clinging to.
3. She exposes the monkâs attachment to image: The monk wanted to appear pure, to appear disciplined, to appear above desire. But he also wanted the nun.
EâShunâs public challenge shows that he cared more about how he looked than about truth.
* Zen teachers often use shock or directness to reveal hypocrisy.
4. Her response is compassion, not cruelty: The commentary emphasizes that EâShun wasnât humiliating him.
She was offering him a chance to be honest, drop pretense, face his desire openly and see his own fear.In Zen, this is considered a gift â a moment of awakening.
5. The teaching: Love that hides is not real love- If the monk truly loved her, he would not need secrecy.
He would not be ashamed. He would not fear being seen.Her challenge shows: his âloveâ was mixed with desire, fear, and ego, he wanted her privately, not openly
and he was attached to the fantasy, not the realityZen points us toward love that is honest, open, and free of clinging.
In one sentence: The commentary teaches that true love and true practice require openness â not hiding, not secrecy, and not clinging to an image of purity.
End of commentary.
Any comments on the commentary Thomas, Peter, Alessa.. anyone? (I don’t understand the “he was attached to the fantasy, not the reality” part).
đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantHey soon 2 B Clear Confused, I hope?
Yes. I do think your mother being in your dream had a play in you feeling like you did when you woke up.
I don’t underestimate the power of a.. distressing, hostile mother in her boy’s or girl’s mind and life.
Maybe ending things with her is a good idea then.
What you need most is peace of mind.
How about letting her go, close that chapter? I mean.. you only met her once. For overall THREE DAYS. T.H.R.E.E days only?
đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantSorry for so many “let’s say”, lol
anitaParticipantHey Confused:
Hmm đ well, seems to me that it may be best at this time to take let’s say a 2-months break from her, a no- contact 2 months, let’s say and set a time to connect again. Let’s say on March 10. And No Contact no matter what until then.
During those 2 months have a low pressure routine existence. Doing about the same things every day. Give yourself a rest.
The “I don’t want this girl” is a powerful message. Maybe you should respect that message, at least for a good two months?
đ¤` Anita
anitaParticipantDear Kane/ Anyone who may be dissociated, overanalyzing and enmeshed with family:
We begin to break this pattern when we finally see it for what it is â a way we learned to survive, not a reflection of who we truly are.
Once we recognize that weâve been carrying everyoneâs emotions, shutting down our own feelings, and relying on thinking instead of feeling, we can start separating ourselves from the family roles we grew up with.
We slowly remind ourselves that other peopleâs choices and emotions arenât our responsibility, and we let ourselves feel small emotions again without fear.
We allow anger to exist as a normal signal instead of something dangerous, and we practice noticing it without pushing it down or exploding. Little by little, we reconnect with our own emotional world in ways that feel safe and manageable.
As we grow, we start building a life outside the family â friendships, interests, goals â and each new connection helps loosen the emotional knot that kept us tied so tightly to the people who raised us.
We practice tiny boundaries, like taking space or saying no, and each one helps us feel more like our own person.
Over time, the overthinking becomes less necessary because weâre no longer trying to solve every feeling with logic.
With support from people outside the family, we begin to develop selfâworth that isnât based on fixing others.
Breaking the pattern is slow, but every small step moves us from survival mode toward a life where we can exist as ourselves, not just as someone sacrificing themselves for everyone else.
Anita
anitaParticipant* Healing is In the Connecting (used my phone)
anitaParticipantDear Bea:
I like the sound of it, Healing is on the Connecting. Sounds like a good title for a book about connecting.
Connecting with people â¨ď¸ who are rrally okay with who you are, people with whom you feel safe and therefore free to be yourself- that’s majore when it comes to healing connections, connections that really heal.
Lots of people don’t feel comfortable just being themselves when it comes to romantic+ relationships.
đ¤â¨ď¸đ¤ Anita
anitaParticipantDear Kane:
In your yesterday’s post, you shared (at the age of only 19 or 20) that experiencesâgood and badâhave shaped you. They hurt you, but they also taught you that everyone deserves love, guidance, and the chance to grow.
Your challenges taught you how to pursue your purpose better and how to stay steady while doing it. Your hardships broke you down but also built you up.
Now you feel more real, more yourself. You’ve regained a lot mentally and emotionally, and you’re still growing.
You still carry your past and your scars, but you no longer let them hold you back. You feel in control againâlike you did as a child, but with the maturity of an adult. You want people to know that the fight is worth it. You offered support to anyone who needs advice and you thanked everyone who supported you before.
Thank you for sharing all this and offering support and guidance to others. I am glad to read about your progress!
In your first thread on Nov 1, 2024 (at the age of 18), you shared that you learned early on to shut down your feelings so effectively that you barely felt anything unless you forced yourself to, that your childhood situation pushed you to grow up fast. There, you learned extreme emotional suppression as a coping mechanism, that you tried to explain every feeling logically, to understand every cause and effect.
You described your emotions at the time as chaotic: wanting to laugh, cry, scream, hurt yourself, hurt others, disappear, and you didn’t know what to do with those feelings.
Your family situation was a major source of pain. You said you loved them, that you wanted to leave them, that theyâre dysfunctional, that arguments hurt you deeply, and that you canât live with them or without them. You were considering letting yourself feel anger fully for the first time, because you thought it might break the emotional âfreezeâ you were stuck in.
In further posts you shared that the negativity in your home was â10 to 1â part of daily life, you had to tune it out to survive. You said you couldnât handle emotional pain, so, you tried to understand the reasons behind your familyâs behavior. You became âundecidedly obsessedâ with analyzing everything.
You cared too much and felt responsible for everyoneâs happiness. You cared more than anyone else in the family. You felt you couldnât be happy unless they were. You shared that when you tried to express emotions, your body flooded with stress, your thoughts became âcrazed and rushedâ, and you feared you might do something you’d regret. So, you built your âsystemâ (Mechanical Morality) to contain it.
You added detail about what your home life was actually like: the arguing was originally between your parents, and then they spread to everyone in the family. Your father was aggressive and cursed a lot, was in and out of the family home, and for much of the time, you grew up in a singleâparent (your mother) household with 7 kids. It was âa sole parent and her kids (7, me included)â Grandparents raised them early on but not during adolescence.
Your mother didnât know how to handle the situation and didnât know what to do to be effective. Your family members didnât reflect on their actions, didnât understand consequences and had let problems grow for years.
You felt forced to care for them more than they cared for themselves. You said that you didnât choose to care this much but you did and it held your life back and adapted by becoming numb until the arguing didnât hurt anymore and your âstandard of living became like them⌠unconsciousâ, feeling like a spectator in your own life.
You wrote about your family situation: “no one to watch over, no one to teach, no one to listenâ- which is what you offered readers in these forums back in your Nov 27, 2024, thread titled “Advice; Here to give it” as well as in your 5th thread yesterday.
My input today:
*** You adapted to a stressful, chaotic, unsafe home by becoming numb and analytical (same as I did). The two- numb & analytical- are connected. When someone grows up in a stressful or emotionally unsafe environment, the mind tries to protect itself. It has two main tools: shutting down feelings and thinking harder. Those two can end up working together in a loop:
1. Numbness/dissociation is the bodyâs emergency brake. When emotions become too overwhelming, the brain can turn down the intensity of feelings, disconnect from the moment and âfreezesâ. This isnât a conscious choice. Itâs a survival response.
If a child grows up around conflict, unpredictability, or emotional pain, this can become a habit. The brain learns: âFeeling is dangerous. Better to shut it off.â
2. Overâanalysis becomes the replacement for emotion. Once emotions are muted, the mind still needs a way to make sense of the world. So, it switches to the tool that feels safer: thinking.
Overâanalysis becomes a way to predict danger, a way to understand peopleâs behavior, a way to feel in control and a way to avoid feeling helpless.
For someone who grew up in chaos, analysis becomes a shield: if you can explain everything, you donât have to feel it.
3. The two reinforce each other. This is the loop:
Pain â numbness â analysis â more numbness â more analysis
Why? Because the more you analyze, the less you feel; the less you feel, the more you rely on analysis to navigate life.
4. Why this happens in childhood? Because kids donât have adult coping skills. If they canât escape or fix the situation, they survive by shutting down emotions, becoming hyperâaware and trying to understand everything.
A child in a chaotic home often becomes: the âobserverâ, the âproblemâsolverâ, the âlittle adultâ
5. The cost: in adulthood (when you’re away from your family of origin) this leads to emotional numbness, difficulty knowing what you feel, overthinking everything, feeling disconnected from yourself, burnout, intrusive thoughts and a sense of being âmechanicalâ.
Itâs not a flaw â itâs a survival strategy that outlived its environment.
*** Enmeshment and emotional numbness/overâanalysis fit together almost perfectly, like two pieces of the same puzzle:
1. Enmeshment forms when a child becomes emotionally responsible for the family. In an enmeshed family, the child learns: âTheir emotions are my responsibility.â, âIf they fall apart, I fall apart.â, âI have to hold everything together.â, âI donât exist separately from them.â
This creates a deep emotional bond that isnât healthy â itâs built on fear, obligation, and survival, not choice.
For you, Kane (and for me) this started very young. You felt you had to protect everyone, understand everyone, and absorb all the pain in the house.
2. Anger becomes dangerous in an enmeshed system. When a child is enmeshed, anger feels like betrayal. Or something that will be heavily punished. So, even though the family hurts the child, the child thinks: âIf I get angry, Iâll lose them.â, âIf I pull away, theyâll fall apart.â, etc.
So, the anger gets pushed down. But it doesnât disappear â it turns inward or leaks out as intrusive thoughts, resentment, or emotional overload.
3. Emotional numbness becomes a survival strategy. When you canât express anger, canât leave, and canât change the situation, the mind protects itself by going numb.
4. Enmeshment creates a painful contradiction: âIâm furious at them for hurting me.â, âI canât leave them because theyâre all I have.â This creates guilt, confusion, selfâblame, emotional overload, fear of abandonment, fear of independence, fear of losing control.
So, the person becomes stuck â unable to pull away, unable to stay without suffering, and the child never learned to exist as a separate person
How are you doing at this point, Kane, in regard to enmeshment (or any of the topics I brought up right above that you’d like to share about)?
Anita
anitaParticipant* you were there in my mind’s eye, Tee, as I was typing the above, made possible by you, Tee, by your input, by your support đđđđ¤đ¤đ¤đ§
anitaParticipantAA: I love you, LGA, GA I am here for you, here with you, here on your side, loyal to you, forevermore
You can trust me. I will never give up on you, never will forsake you.
I am here, not asking for anything, just wanting you to be YOU, your special, precious .. you.
LGA (or GA): Really? Really, someone to really love me.. after all these years (tears in my eyes)
What do I need to do.. ???
AA: Nothing, no price to pay. You are the lovable little girl who never had to do anything to buy love, to become worthy of love. You already are, always have been, from the very beginning.
LGA: I can relax, RELAX..?
I can BREATHE?
AA: Yes, you can breathe. You can relax. You are loved. I love you.
LGA: Forevermore?
AA: Forevermore, I promise, every day, every hour of every day.
LGA: And she . What about .
AA: She is gone. No access to my little girl Anita, not even a peep. Nothing.
LGA: All this, that time.. ALL THAT TIME,??
AA: All that time has ended. You are now loved forevermore, every day, every day and night forevermore.
(Later)
anitaParticipantTo this very day, I automatically expect people, particularly (!) women to turn against me anytime. I don’t think: “these are women like my mother, so I expect them to hurt me, to turn against me.
It’s without thinking.
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