Dear Tee:

Change of plans, I do have the time to read and respond.

It happens in mornings that when I see your name as having posted in this thread, I need to check to see if you’re still supportive of me, if you’re still kind to me, or if you changed and there’s criticism or approval coming at me. It’s the habit of not knowing which I will get growing up (inward), the soft, affectionate mother at times, or the Monster.

“I’m happy to read that you’re gaining more and more clarity regarding covert narcissism, and that you won’t allow yourself to be gaslighted anymore”- in progress healing, and it’s accelerating most recently, here, in communication with you, because of you 🙏 🙏 🙏

“Great! Yes, covert narcissism is very tricky – it presents very differently than grandiose narcissism. They’re not the bragging and self-aggrandizing type, which people usually associate with narcissism, but almost the opposite: the meek, shy, self-deprecating (at least in public).

“At home they’re not meek and shy at all, but they nevertheless play the victim and guilt-trip those who love them (I almost wrote “their loved ones”, but you corrected me last time: it’s the people who love them – not whom they love).”-

Yes, exactly, that’s how she was.. and to think that you corrected “loved ones” to “those who loved them” makes me smile appreciatingly 😊

“Yes!!! So good to hear this! 🎉 (this is supposed to be confetti emoji – hope it turns out well when I post it:) ) ❤️”- cute (another 😊), ❤️

“Well, I’m not a mother, but I think the only time when it’s appropriate for a parent to touch their child’s genitals is when they’re a baby or a toddler and they’re changing their diapers or bathing them. I read somewhere that when the child can go to the toilet on their own, that’s when they can be entrusted to clean their private parts themselves.”-

When I read this earlier this morning, I remember something I forgot.. I was an older child, maybe 8.. way, way after going to the bathroom on my own. Maybe 10, maybe older. I remember having to call her name so that she’d come in and wipe me. I can’t tell you the extent of the shame. But I had to, that’s what she said I had to do.

As I wrote right above “wipe me”, it’s more like wipe “it”. My body felt like an “it”, a shameful it. Everything about it was shameful.

… My goodness, Tee, I am thinking that I had one of the sickest mother-monster in the whole wide world.

The squashing of my autonomy in each and every way: feeding me, wiping me, washing me, dressing me.

I remember lying down in bed on my back, after those showers, lying flat, and she would put the pajamas over my feet, legs and then, I knew (because she told me so earlier) to raise my behind so that she could slide the pajamas up.

And the top of the pajamas- I would raise my arms so that she’d slide the top over and push it down.

I remember this one neighbor, Rosie. She was present during one of those times she dressed me, an adolescent or older (arms up and sliding the pajamas downward), and she said, she cried in an alarmed voice: “BUT THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR HER!” (her exact words, translated).

I remember this like it was yesterday. Because no one said something like that before. The mother responded, saying with a smile, contentment, satisfaction.. confidence: “She likes it!”, as she continued to dress me.

Okay, I had a heavy-duty, seriously perverted mother-monster. It was never as clear to me as it is now!!!

But like I said before, back then, a child was her mother’s property to do with it as she’d like.

I remember the same neighbor Rosie, when her sister came to visit her from the U.S., her sister, Rita, had a son, 11 years old at the time, I think (I was 13). So, Rita and son were in Rosie’s house, and she was beating her son mercilessly. You could hear the son’s muffled cries and the sounds of whatever she was using (a belt, I think) to beat him. You could hear the sounds outside the closed door.

Her sister was given the privacy to do as she wished to her son, her property- in her sister’s house. I was standing right outside the closed door with Rosie and others. I was horrified. Everyone waited quietly until Monster-Rita was finished beating her son, and opened the door. And when it was opened (I don’t remember this part), but I am sure nothing was said or done about any of it.

Taking a moment to calm down from this memory.

“Here’s an answer that I found: ‘At what age should a child clean themselves? This can vary greatly from child to child. By about 5 they should be fully toilet trained including correct wiping and washing hands, many children can go by about 3-to 3.5 yrs, however they don’t usually wipe and wash properly until about 5 or 6.'”-

I don’t remember when she stopped. I remember now, like it was yesterday, the distance in time between calling her name and her coming in. So weird, thinking of it now, but back then.. I just followed her instructions, didn’t know how it’s supposed to be.

But S.H.A.M.E was intense then and enduring lifetime.

“So if your mother was bathing you say at the age of 7 or 8 or 10, and she was touching your genitals so as to clean them, I think that’s inappropriate. A good mother would teach the child how to do it themselves. You didn’t like it, you instinctively felt it was wrong, but as a child, you of course didn’t ask other children if that was normal. And so you endured it, although it felt uncomfortable.”-

And I remember the distance in time between calling her name and her entering the bathroom. I hid parts of myself best I could. I think I unintentionally uttered sounds of distress, but she didn’t hear or care to hear or see my obvious distress.

Funny, that land is called “Holy Land”.. nothing holy in my experience growing up (inward).

I am feeling a bit sick right now, tears in my eyes. It’s like all this time, ALL THIS TIME, I didn’t see the plain truth: that she was that sick, and that society back then was that sick.

A moment.

“You’re welcome, Anita. Yes, that’s the modus operandi of a narcissist: put another person down, so to feel better about themselves. If your mother had the need to devalue almost everybody, that shows her narcissistic traits were pretty strong, I think.”- Yes, 100% Covert Narcissist, no doubt in my mind!

“Honestly, I don’t think she had empathy for you. If she had any, she wouldn’t have initiated vomiting (bulimia) when she was pregnant with you (if that’s what happened). But in theory, it’s possible that a narcissistic parent develops jealousy and hostility for their children only later, typically when they start showing some independence and a will of their own. That can be as late as puberty, but also much earlier too.”-

Yes, to the second part. As to the first, I recently came across the term “Selected Empathy” when it comes to Narcissists. The mother had empathy for hungry cats.. anything that was hungry, or could be hungry.

“A child at age 2-3 starts saying No a lot, they show resistance to the parent, which is a normal part of child’s development. And I can imagine that when a narcissistic parent starts hearing No, they get really angry and triggered. Maybe that’s when they start showing open hostility towards the child, I don’t know… But I can imagine that any display of independence – in the sense of not following parental commands – may be triggering for a narcissistic parent.”-

You are 100% correct in regard to the mother, 100%.

“This is telling on more levels: first, the fact the you even dared to ask your mother if your father sexually abused you shows (I believe) that your mother was talking poorly about him all the time, and so you weren’t afraid of asking such a… well, pretty damning question.”- Oh yes, of course, she talked negatively about him all along.

“Also, the fact that she told you she made such a horrible remark to him: that he might as well sexually assault his own daughter (baby at the time) if he is interested in young women – that’s horrendous: both what she told him, but also that she later told you about it.

“You called her vicious, and the above is I’m afraid an example of that viciousness. I guess she said that to hurt him – to hurt him deeply, to cause as much pain as possible. And then she told you about it later (do you remember how old were you at the time?), as if bragging about how much she’d hurt him, making sure you know how much she hates him. At least that’s how I would interpret her words..”-

I never thought about her hurting him. The story she told me all along was that he hurt her. I don’t remember feeling empathy for him, only for her. Just now, I had a moment of empathy for him.

As far as how old I was when she told me that he might desire baby Anita for sex.. Five, six.. earlier..? whenever the thought occurred to her. There was no age-appropriate consideration on her part, no such thing.

“Narcissistic people can say really hurtful things, things that can feel like a dagger to our heart. And if it comes from our own mother, the pain is enormous. I’ve experienced hurtful remarks from my mother too, but they weren’t as hurtful as this.”-

Like daggers indeed. I am sorry you experienced this to any extent 😢

“I’m so sorry about it, Anita. Please give yourself a hug, and I too am giving you a virtual hug ❤️”- than you, Tee. You are the best!!! Virtual hug back to you ❤️

“Give LGA a hug to protect her from your mother’s malicious words. Perhaps you can imagine an umbrella or a shield that protects you from those words. Or perhaps you can imagine yourself in a protective bubble, an oasis filled with butterflies and flowers and singing birds… something soothing and innocent, as opposed to harsh and cruel that you’ve received from your mother.

“I hope this wasn’t too upsetting for you.. and that you can keep taking care of yourself, every day, little by little, being there for yourself and LGA as you walk this path towards healing. ❤️”-

Yes, this was upsetting, but I was not along in it. There’s someone listening to me, someone understanding, attending, validating- and this makes ALL the difference 🙏 🙏 🙏

“I’m glad that you’ve become more trusting towards people, and also towards me. Your previous attitude of suspicion and distrust is understandable – since your mother was like that towards other people, and she taught you to be like that too. And also, since you’ve received mostly abuse from her, you were conditioned to expect abuse from other people too. I’m glad that this is now changing and that you’re slowly opening up ❤️ 🫶 ❤️”-

Yes, yes, yes, my attitude is changing (tears in my eyes)

❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ Anita

Dear Tee:

“Wow, that was another powerful corrective exercise! It seems LGA is slowly starting to realize that her mother didn’t wish her well, on the contrary, that she was her enemy (‘She’s not my friend. She’s been my biggest enemy ever.’)”-

As I read the quote you inserted, the words LGA said during the exercise, my mind went to analyzing whether she really was an enemy and whether she was enemy by intent or impact. But then.. no reason to go there, says I, just listen to the child (LGA), believe her, don’t debate her, and that’s what a good mother does, Adult/ Mother Anita needs to do: to believe her little girl, to validate her.

And giving it a moment.. Yes, she was Enemy, of course she was, my Enemy. It never occurred to me that she was/ is narcissistic, as in having NPD traits or the whole diagnosis. I think that it was you who introduced to me- in posts to other members- the concept of covert narcissism. And it fit, but it was only yesterday that I read a lot about Covert NPD- a subtype of NPD. In then had a conversation with Copilot about some of her (the mother’s) behaviors and it all makes sense to me now. I understand the mother’s motivations and behaviors so much better now.

And in this new/ fuller understanding- in the context of my mother-myself- I peel off all guilt, all shame. It’s not mine to carry. It’s a testament to human resilience that I survived all this.. enough to get to this point of healing.

“I am touched by the conversation you had with LGA, and that you offered to be LGA’s mother, who will care for her, protect her and respect her, and let her Be.”- yes, this is my job, AA’s job. It is time for LGA to be finally, fully validated, cared for, protected and respected.

There was a lot of gaslighting the mother did to LGA, creating a lot of self-doubt, doubting reality, doubting everything. I (AA) will not continue the mother’s job. No more doubting what’s been real.

“Your mother was a seriously troubled woman, who abused you in every possible way. The way she was bathing you – by inserting her fingers into your bodily openings, including your private parts, I believe constitutes sexual abuse. She had no business getting anywhere close to your private parts, let alone inserting her fingers into you! That alone was a crime, for which she should have been taken to court and the child taken away from her.”-

I don’t think she inserted her fingers.. well, not deeply.. just some as to clean me thoroughly, the same way she inserted her fingers into my scalp so to clean it thoroughly. I still remember the feel of her fingers in my scalp, dogging forcefully. I remember thinking, why is she doing this.. I mean, it was really painful and it lasted a long time.

And yes, her behaviors do constitute sexual abuse. I remember in my late 20s, I read about sexual abuse and realized I display most or all of the symptoms. I asked her on the phone if my father sexually abused me (in my first 5-6 years when he was living there) and she said No. I didn’t realize at the time that a mother can sexually abuse her daughter in ways that are not as overt.

* Growing up, I heard a lot of sexualized talk about my father cheating on her, part of her loud fighting with him, part of her talking to her sisters and directly to me. One of those moments I remember- she told me that she told him that, being that his choice was women much younger than him, he might choose his own daughter (a baby at the time) for sex.

“I am angry that this was happening, and that there was no one to stop her. I hope this isn’t insensitive to ask, but have you ever spoken to your sister about the way your mother was bathing you? Has she experienced something similar?”-

Thank you for caring, Tee! No, I never did. It never crossed my mind. The bating as a teenager was terrible. I felt that it was wrong with every fiber of my being, but it was happening and there was no one there but me and her and never talked about it to anyone, didn’t even cross my mind to talk about it because I didn’t know-know it was wrong. I mean I didn’t have anything to compare it with, didn’t have girlfriends (I was very isolated and lonely, spent almost all my time outside school in the apartment) to talk with, so the topic never came up. I didn’t know how other girls bathe or are bathed.

As far as my sister, I remember so little of her when growing up. In the memorable scenes, such as the bathing, she is not in the scenes at all. It’s as if I was an only child. I do remember that the mother told me that my sister was much more independent than me. She might have let her wash herself.

“Yes, unfortunately 🙁 To her, you were dirty and bad and needed ‘cleansing’, whereas she (in her mind) was pure and good. In reality, she had a dirty, distorted mind (and tongue), and yet she saw you as dirty and distorted.”- She projected her shame into me and cleansed herself by proxy.

“Yes, I think she wanted to own you completely, so you would be completely under her control. A man in your life would take that dominion away from her. I think she wanted total power and control over you. She saw you as her ‘property’, and she didn’t want to lose that control over you.”- I agree, 100% true.

“Yes, she found ‘power’ by subduing someone who was weaker and more fragile than her: her children.”- True. Very true.

“Actually, it could be that she felt so powerless in her life (her inner child feeling like that), that she needed to have one person (or two people: her children) to control, so she would feel better about herself. By dominating and controlling you, she had a sense of power and control in her life. By humiliating you and telling you that you’re worthless, she had a false sense of worth, feeling that she is better than you.

“So by putting you down, she felt a little better about herself (or rather, she hated herself a little less). By subduing you, she felt a little less powerless. At least that’s my theory…”- I get the power thing and I agree. I didn’t get the self-worth part, so I asked Copilot, had a little conversation (general, not about me).

Copilot: “Yes — the pattern you described (someone feeling superior by putting others down) is strongly linked to narcissism. Narcissists often humiliate or devalue others as a way to artificially boost their own fragile sense of self-worth…. Their sense of worth depends on being ‘better than’ someone else… Example Imagine a narcissistic parent who constantly tells their child they’re ‘worthless.’ The parent feels a surge of superiority — ‘I’m better, I’m in control’ — but it’s a false sense of worth, built on comparison and humiliation rather than genuine self-respect… The “superiority” they feel is manufactured and fragile, a mask to cover inner emptiness.”-

This makes total sense. Yes, she did a whole lot of humiliating and devaluing almost everyone, mostly indirectly, by gossiping about them, and sometimes directly. it was vicious. So, it’s only now, in this reply, that I realize this point, Tee. Thank you!

“But in any case, it’s horrendous what kind of ‘mother’ she was. She was your torturer, your private Nazi, as you call her. And it is time that you free yourself from the trauma she inflicted upon you. You deserve to be free, Anita, and I’m happy that you’ve started on your healing journey. ❤️…

“I am happy I can help, and also that you feel heard and validated. You truly deserve it. You deserve healing, and I hope that slowly but surely, it is happening”-

Truly you are helping me A LOT. It took my attitude changing in the last few months- from Suspicion & Distrust (of you, and people in general) to Trusting you- a trust you well deserve- for me to open myself to your valuable input and to let it in.

❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 ❤️ Anita

* I will reply to your recent post later.