Dear Tee:

“It occurred to me that the way she was bathing you (scrubbing your head to the point of pain, as well as inappropriately touching you) might also have been a form of revenge and punishment for perceived (or real) humiliation that she’d experienced as a child.”-

It makes sense, yes.

But also, one of her personality disorders was Obsessive Compulsive. She didn’t let me wash myself because she was bothered by the idea that I will not do a thorough, perfect job.. Just as she wouldn’t let me wash dishes or clean anything in the apartment, she didn’t trust me to do a thorough, perfect job.

She scrubbed my body hard just as she scrubbed any item in the apartment.

Later in life her OCPD eased as she said herself: “I was stupid to care so much about perfect cleanliness.. Why was it so important?” (paraphrased).

And yes, I was an item to be cleaned.

I think that she resented doing all that hard work, cleaning everything. I think that she wished she didn’t have to, and cleaning me was a chore she wouldn’t have to do if she was rich and had a maid.

“It could be that she felt humiliated – not necessarily by her father abandoning her, but perhaps by what happened in the orphanage (has she shared anything about that?), or by severe beatings at the hand of her oldest sister. She might have felt not only helpless but also humiliated by that, but you said she’d never expressed anger towards her sister.”-

No doubt she had very humiliating experiences growing up, or.. growing-ashamed my be a more accurate term. I misspoke about her not expressing anger at her oldest sister.. I don’t remember her confronting her oldest sister (I’ll refer to her as M), but I know that for a while she wouldn’t talk to M, as in a no-contact, because she was angry at her, she realized at that time that M really, really did hurt her.

But after some time she went back to talking with her. It’s like part of her was M. M was an overt aggressor, consistently, no meek/ people pleasing performances; the mother switched between being M and performing meek/ people pleasing- unlike M- in between returns to being the overt aggressor that M was.

“However, the intense sense of shame and humiliation (and anger) hasn’t just disappeared. And so she was expressing it to you, with whom she felt safe to express anger and to shame you as much as she pleases. So I’m thinking that this entire ritual of bathing you beyond appropriate age might have been a way to revenge for the humiliation she’d experienced as a child.”-

Yes. I think she sometimes turned into her oldest sister. I think that M was her No 1 Abuser.

“It also had sexual connotations, and so I’m wondering whether she was sexually abused (e.g. inappropriately touched) in the orphanage? Has she ever shared anything about that period of her life?”-

Not that I remember. If she did, it was very little.. Wait, how could I forget.. It was in the orphanage (she insisted calling it “institution”, not orphanage) that she lost all her hair- forevermore- as a result of an untreated scalp fungus infection. A shame she carried with her throughout her life.. cutting her head off photos.

And it occurred to me just now.. for the first time in my whole life, why she scrubbed my scalp so terribly deep and rough.. because I had hair and she didn’t..?

I didn’t know she had no hair until I was 26 or 27. She wore wigs the whole time. I just didn’t know until .. was it my sister who told me (I don’t remember). I was in shock at the time, that for a quarter of a century, I didn’t know.

“Alternatively, sexual connotations might also have to do with her obsession with sexuality, which we’ve talked about, and sort of punishing you (as a representative of all women) for ‘stealing’ her father away. Of course, this is pure speculation, I’m just throwing some ideas around, in case it resonates..”-

I remember that the last thing I wanted to do or be- was a woman. Not that I wanted to be a man.. but I definitely didn’t want to be a woman. A genderless doll is more like what she’d approve of.. Just like the dolls she gave me as gifts.

“Possibly. Though she seemed not to have been too upset when you were leaving to the U.S. I actually wanted to ask you about how she reacted to your leaving. You said she was touching your hand softly before your departure, so I assumed she expressed support. But was she okay with you leaving? May I ask how she reacted later, when the marriage was annulled and you returned home for a brief period?”-

Good point, Tee. She wasn’t upset at all about me leaving, and again, it never occurred to me that indeed she wasn’t upset. Sincerely, truthfully.. I was never a person to her, never of a human value, one she’d miss.. I was just a thing, a doll that messed up and turned into the unacceptable.. woman form (not by choice.. it just happened to the body I was ashamed of). But in her mind, seems to me, turning woman meant betrayal.

When I returned in 1986 from New Orleans.. I don’t think there was any discussion of what happened with the short-term husband of sorts. Why would there be..? For her to be curious about a Thing’s inner life or personal experiences? It’d be like looking at a plastic doll, an object made to resemble the appearance of a human, and wondering about the doll’s (non-existing) thoughts, feelings and life experiences).

“Oh I see. So, your sister got to socialize with other children from an early age (and your mother spent less time with her during the first years of her life). Unlike with you, when she was a stay-at-home mom, and you spent your entire time with her, up to your elementary school. It seems your mother didn’t even try to establish total control over your sister like she did with you.”- not physically, as in washing, feeding, wiping and dressing her. (Not necessarily in that order.. sad lol).

“You said she claimed your sister was more independent, so perhaps that played a role too. But she didn’t even try, or didn’t have the opportunity to instill complete control (including physical/bodily control) over your sister. However, she clearly managed to establish emotional control over her, since your sister believed she was a whore… And she also did whatever your mother told her to do… So, she was emotionally ‘enslaved’ (i.e. strongly enmeshed) with your mother, even though her body was free from your mother’s intrusions. Eventually, you left home to get some distance from your mother’s abuse. But your sister stayed and I imagine continued receiving abuse?”-

For the longest time I felt so guilty for leaving because when I did, she turned all her attention to my sister and literally told her to give her a child “Give me a grandchild” is what she told her. She said: “You are a great disappointment, the least you can do (to compensate me) is to give me a grandchild”. Nine months later, my sister gave her what she demanded.

Oh, did I mention the mother told her to marry a particular young man, a bad fit (just because he was blond and had blue or green eyes from a country in north Europe).. so, she did.

(The plot thickens, doesn’t it, Tee?)

“Oh, I didn’t know there used to be a special category called Sadistic Personality Disorder in the DSM, which was later replaced by Antisocial Personality Disorder.

“Yeah, sadism and APD do overlap, but they aren’t the same. APD is more typical for criminals, people who disregard rules and social norms. It can also be an obnoxious neighbor who is making noise in the middle of the night, disregarding the fact that it disturbs people who live in the same apartment building.”-

I had a neighbor like that when I last lived in an apartment building, back in early 2014. She used to use her vacuum cleaner at 3 am. When I told her it was disturbing my sleep, she told me that I was disturbing her sleep turning my vacuum clear or what not (during the day). I used to think of her as “the neighbor from hell)”

“Whereas sadism doesn’t even need to include criminal behavior, and yet can be very hurtful. I’m thinking now that making pranks on people can also be a form of sadism – enjoying seeing when someone gets hurt physically, or embarrassed/humiliated (i.e. hurt emotionally).”- Yes, I agree.

“And yes, your mother enjoyed when you (and others whom she’d shamed and humiliated) would get hurt emotionally, or even physically (when she would scrub your head to the point of pain, or when she would slap you on the face multiple times ’till her hands hurt’).”-

Yes, she enjoyed it. I just “heard” her say, accusatorily, angrily: “Well, there wasn’t anything else for me to enjoy, how dare you take away my only little thing to enjoy?) You bad, bad.. you!!!”

“Yes, that’s a very good observation: her disregard for and violation of your rights. By bathing you inappropriately, she was actually violating your rights (e.g. the right to bodily autonomy, or however it is called). And I believe she would have been held accountable for that – had the authorities known about it.”-

The authorities that didn’t protect her from her oldest sister.. the authorities that didn’t treat her scalp condition in the Institution.

“It occurs to me that she glorified, or at least excused criminals (both in real life and on film). Which means that she didn’t have a huge problem with criminal, antisocial behavior. It wasn’t morally objectionable to her, but she didn’t practice it so not to have problems with the law.”-

Well, in a different society, she would have been arrested for assault (and attempted battery) of the music teacher.. Disturbing the peace, etc… child Abuse (for the endless verbal and physical assault that the neighbors could hear).

But I have no memory at all of any authorities. I understand that things are somewhat improved back there.

“She also was aware that being more physically abusive with you (akin to breaking your bones) would have gotten her in trouble with the authorities. So she restrained herself – not because it was the right thing to do, but because she didn’t want to get caught.’-

Yes, although I’m surprised anyone back then got in trouble for breaking a child’s bones..?

Thing is, yes, she had no ethical sense within her, that is.. When she told me: “You think I am stupid, I wouldn’t break your bones!”, what had upset her was not at all that breaking my bones would be the wrong thing to do, but that I would think of her as “stupid”.

She said: “You think that I don’t know that I am wrong (about the way she treated me), I do know, but what can you do about it, you have nowhere to go)-

it’s not that she was acknowledging being wrong.. she’d never say she was wrong about anything (my sister would confirm it 100%, and she did), what was behind what she said was: “I am not stupid (one of her concerns)”. There was no looking-within, it was just.. I AM NOT STUPID and how dare you think I am!

“Anyway, she definitely violated your rights, and for some of those violations, she would have been prosecuted, I believe..”- I would retroactively resurrect a non-existing authority. I still wonder if any parent was held responsible for anything back then.

“Okay, I’ve just refreshed the forums and saw your latest post. My goodness, Anita, that’s pretty serious stuff. It could have been that she would have been charged on more accounts than I thought 😕 😢… I’m very sorry that all this happened to you. But also glad that, as you say, talking about it now and understanding it is bringing you liberation and healing. ❤️ 🙏

“And no, it’s not too much for me. It is tough, it’s painful even to listen to (and I can imagine how painful it is to you), but I’m glad that you can look at some of those dark places and bring light and healing to them. I just hope it’s not too much for you?”-

– No, it’s not too much for me. Holding all this in, unprocessed, or inadequately processed, suppressing memories and emotions had been too much for me.

But because of you (and I can’t reiterate it enough), I am healing, my healing process is accelerated.

I like your use of 😕, the puzzled face emoji that as far as I remember, I introduced it to you 🙂.

Forever grateful, Tee. you are my hero!

❤️ 🙏 🙏 🙏 ❤️, Anita

Dear Tee: (SA Trigger Warning for Alessa or anyone who may get triggered)

The above is major, for me. Never would I think that I will find relief in a memory of sexual incest. But relief is in what’s been hidden in darkness coming to light.

… I wrote the right above before I noticed you submitted the latest post for me, so glad it’s not too much for you, as for me: I was quite calm when I posted to you last, now the emotions are catching up to me.

I CAN’T BELIEVE I was BLIND for SO LONG!!!

TOOK THE BLAME, THE SHAME.

Tears in my eyes.. I DIDN’T KNOW! Why didn’t anyone tell me../

All this time, these decades, I carried shame that was not for me to carry..

Forever Thankful to You, Tee- FOREVER.

Anita

Thank you, Alessa, and thank you for letting me know it’s triggering for you. Please don’t read the post I submitted to Tee on my other thread. I should have placed an SA trigger warning in front of it, sorry Alessa.

I will in the future. Please let me know if you read this message before my previous, SA post in the other thread..?

Dear Tee:

“Thanks for sharing this, Anita, and for being frank about what would have triggered you in the past. I’m glad that you didn’t see my words as criticism, because they really weren’t meant like that. By ‘slowly’ I meant gradually, and in fact my intention wasn’t to focus on the speed of the process, but on the process itself: you connecting the dots.”-

Yes, I knew for sure that you didn’t criticize me. As I read the slowly-part, it occurred to me that in the past, it would have sounded like criticism. I mentioned it to you so to sharpen my awareness of this problem: hearing criticism where it’s not, and reacting to it (withdrawing or confronting).. while all along there was nothing to react to.. to defend or attack.

“I chose the phrase ‘connecting the dots’ because what you described sounded like that… And I felt like it’s you, not me, connecting the dots. I do mention certain things and give suggestions, but then you connect it to a memory you had, or make further connections (such as that your mother’s hyper-focus on sexuality may be related to her childhood trauma around her father). So when you said that I am drawing lines through blank spaces, I feel that you are doing it, or that perhaps that I’m helping you do it 😊”-

Oh.. Thing is, I am drawing lines through blank spaces because I am not alone, because you are here, and I trust you 🙏 😊

“Anyway, my point wasn’t the speed, but the process itself 😊 And I’m happy that you took my words as affirming and supportive, rather than criticism ❤️”- (I am reading each part and responding before reading the next part)-

Yes, I am pleased too, that I took your words as affirming and supportive. I am experience a real shift from suspicion to trust, and this shift started in context of our communication, Tee: because you forgave me and then proceeded to help me A LOT ❤️

“Right. She saw relationships as a power struggle: one is dominant, the other is submissive. One is in control, the other is controlled. And I guess that’s typical for narcissistic people: there’s no mutuality and win-win in their relationships. It’s always competition, where one party is the winner and the other is the loser.”-

Very well said, perfectly explained.

“Could be that your mother suppressed her anger against her father, because she was afraid of him. Perhaps he didn’t beat her up, like he did her oldest sister, because she was too little. But she might have witnessed those beatings and started fearing him anyway. So I can imagine that feeling angry at him didn’t feel safe for her, and so she suppressed it.

“But still, this anger remained in her system (she still felt betrayed and abandoned by him), and later she expressed it – freely and fully – at your father. If I understood well, your father wasn’t a bully in the sense that he would be physically abusive to her, right? So she probably felt safe to express that anger at him. Same as she felt safe to express anger at those weaker than her: her own children.”-

Yes, it all makes sense. No, my father was never physically abusive to her or to anyone. That one time he hit me with a belt was on that night that must have been traumatizing for him (her yelling, breaking, hitting, threatening suicide, leaving the apartment and running into the night).

It is only through our communication, Tee, that for the first time in my life, I consider how terrible his life was with her was, her changing from “good” to ragefully vicious, back and forth. I didn’t look at it through his perspective but through hers: that he was thoroughly bad, untrustworthy and undeserving of any empathy. I don’t remember her saying anything positive about him.

“Perhaps it could be said that she freely expressed her anger at those whom she felt safe with: those weaker than herself. Perhaps she felt that your music teacher was ‘weaker’ than her, or anybody else whom she shamed and yelled at openly… Whereas with other people – perhaps more intimidating people, i.e. bullies – she didn’t dare to express anger. She might have stayed silent or treated those people carefully. Have you noticed anything like that?”-

She complained a lot about people mistreating her but I have no personal memory of anyone bullying her, yelling at her, physically abusing her, or shaming her.. Oh, wait, I do remember an uncle (that would be her brother-in-law). She exploded at him, shaming him heavily and he said something shaming back to her. I remember she complained about it a lot, presenting herself as his victim.

Otherwise, her aggressive explosions were terrifying, people were shocked. I was, every time. In between the explosions she appeared meek, people-pleasing.

As I shared, in my early 20s, when she ran with her arms outstretched so to hit me, I took her hands in mine, applying just enough force to block her from moving forward, and her hands went limp, she immediately withdrew and never tried to hit me again.

“I meant, she felt threatened by female sexuality, because seductive, sexy women took away her father, and also took away her husband from her. So I meant in that sense, sexuality was a threat..”-

Oh, I see. There is something more to it, more to understand about this point..

“Yes, unfortunately, saying cruel, hurtful things to you was a form of revenge (for whatever perceived ‘offense’ you were guilty of. Of course she would always find a reason, an invented reason, why you’re guilty of something, so she could punish you).”-

My offense was being a human with own thoughts, feelings and agency. She wanted a 2 dimensional object, an “It”.

She punished me for thoughts she determined that I had, feelings she determined that I felt (determined because I wouldn’t share with her any unflattering, negative thoughts about her, nor would I openly share any negative feelings about her.. except for that silent, angry stare as a teenager, at times).

“She probably felt slighted by life, by other people (both men and women, it seems to me). And she had this perpetual anger about her, which she needed to release somehow. You were unfortunately one of the ‘safe’ people to release it on, because you were weaker than her, and she believed she could do with you whatever she pleases. So you were her punching bag, unfortunately, for releasing all that anger that was inside of her. 😕”-

Yes. She fit the Borderline Personality Disorder perfectly, and the few others.

“She vented her anger, which I imagine like releasing some steam from the pressure cooker. And for a while she felt calm, because the internal pressure went down. But soon enough, it would build up again (because the anger was never addressed and processed), and she would seek another opportunity to release it.”- Exactly, 100 percent true.

“The way I see it, she was perpetually angry, with occasional (or frequent) outbursts, whenever the pressure was too high and needed to be released. And she vented at people whom she felt safe with, which is you, your sister and others whom she felt are weaker than her. I wonder if this resonates with your experience?”-

Yes! But also, she had confidence, I think, in the power of her aggression, she must have experienced lots of “success” tearing people apart with her words, people not daring to object.. because she did rage at adults, like in the school setting, seemingly unafraid to get in trouble for it. So, she didn’t rage only at people weaker than her. Her rage was the kind that overpowered people, rendering them weak.

“Dear Anita, I’ll reply to the rest hopefully tomorrow. And no, I don’t find these posts too long. I mean they are long partly because of the Copilot input, but that’s okay. This is important stuff, and I don’t mind analyzing it at all. But it’s also true that we don’t need to rush to figure out everything at once 😊”-

Thank you very, very much, Tee. I am glad you don’t mind doing one of the things you’re so good at- analyzing. And yes, no rushing (and less Copilot 😊).

“You said you’re tired, sitting in front of the computer for hours. So please, go outside, go for a walk if the weather allows it, and breathe in some fresh air 😊 See you tomorrow! 😊”-

I did walk yesterday, but only for 40 minutes or so. Nothing as refreshing as walking in fresh, cold air. I hope you are feeling well, Tee. I said it before and I’ll say it again: You are Amazing!

🙏 ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita