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PeterParticipant
Any other ideas on how to function like a normal human through this process?
Your experience of the “supernova” sounds pretty normal to me and I’m impressed with your intention to use the experience to grow with a focus on the positive.
There is a time for all things and perhaps by allowing the “supernova” experience to be normal and accepted as it is, for what it is, you will eventually have fewer of them and or that they not last as long.
Sometimes the simple act of noticing without self-judgment is enough for such moments to pass.
And sometimes… well finding a private corner somewhere and letting yourself feel everything, think everything, blame, cry, curse, grieve… all that stuff, well that that has it place. You just don’t want to get stuck there.
From what I read I don’t think you’re the type of person that will get stuck.
You’re very good at expressing yourself.PeterParticipantI believe that we become the stories we tell ourselves more often then we become the stories we write.
(There is a difference)The first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was cognitive distortion
Cognitive distortions are simply ways that our mind convinces us of something that isn’t really true. These inaccurate thoughts are usually used to reinforce negative thinking or emotions — telling ourselves things that sound rational and accurate, but really only serve to keep us feeling bad about ourselves.
I also recognize that sometimes we just need to get the kinds of thoughts you posted out.
Anyway If you aren’t only venting but want to work your way out of these thoughts you might want to examine what you are telling yourself for Cognitive distortion. Its a place to start.
Common distortions in the stories we tell ourselves
Filtering: We take the negative details and magnify them while filtering out all positive aspects of a situation. For instance, a person may pick out a single, unpleasant detail and dwell on it exclusively so that their vision of reality becomes darkened or distorted.Polarized Thinking: In polarized thinking, things are either “black-or-white.” We have to be perfect or we’re a failure — there is no middle ground. You place people or situations in “either/or” categories, with no shades of gray or allowing for the complexity of most people and situations. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
Overgeneralization: In this cognitive distortion, we come to a general conclusion based on a single incident or a single piece of evidence. If something bad happens only once, we expect it to happen over and over again. A person may see a single, unpleasant event as part of a never-ending pattern of defeat.
Jumping to Conclusions: Without individuals saying so, we know what they are feeling and why they act the way they do. In particular, we are able to determine how people are feeling toward us.
For example, a person may conclude that someone is reacting negatively toward them but doesn’t actually bother to find out if they are correct. Another example is a person may anticipate that things will turn out badly, and will feel convinced that their prediction is already an established fact.Catastrophizing: We expect disaster to strike, no matter what. This is also referred to as “magnifying or minimizing.” We hear about a problem and use what if questions (e.g., “What if tragedy strikes?” “What if it happens to me?”).
Personalization: Personalization is a distortion where a person believes that everything others do or say is some kind of direct, personal reaction to the person. We also compare ourselves to others trying to determine who is smarter, better looking, etc.
Control Fallacies: If we feel externally controlled, we see ourselves as helpless a victim of fate. For example, “I can’t help it if the quality of the work is poor, my boss demanded I work overtime on it.” The fallacy of internal control has us assuming responsibility for the pain and happiness of everyone around us. For example, “Why aren’t you happy? Is it because of something I did?”
Fallacy of Fairness: We feel resentful because we think we know what is fair, but other people won’t agree with us. As our parents tell us when we’re growing up and something doesn’t go our way, “Life isn’t always fair.” People who go through life applying a measuring ruler against every situation judging its “fairness” will often feel badly and negative because of it. Because life isn’t “fair” — things will not always work out in your favor, even when you think they should.
Blaming: We hold other people responsible for our pain, or take the other track and blame ourselves for every problem. For example, “Stop making me feel bad about myself!” Nobody can “make” us feel any particular way — only we have control over our own emotions and emotional reactions.
Shoulds: We have a list of ironclad rules about how others and we should behave. People who break the rules make us angry, and we feel guilty when we violate these rules. A person may often believe they are trying to motivate themselves with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if they have to be punished before they can do anything.
Emotional Reasoning: We believe that what we feel must be true automatically. If we feel stupid and boring, then we must be stupid and boring. You assume that your unhealthy emotions reflect he way things really are — “I feel it, therefore it must be true.”
Fallacy of Change: We expect that other people will change to suit us if we just pressure or cajole them enough. We need to change people because our hopes for happiness seem to depend entirely on them.
Global Labeling: We generalize one or two qualities into a negative global judgment. These are extreme forms of generalizing, and are also referred to as “labeling” and “mislabeling.” Instead of describing an error in context of a specific situation, a person will attach an unhealthy label to themselves.
For example, they may say, “I’m a loser” in a situation where they failed at a specific task.Always Being Right: We are continually on trial to prove that our opinions and actions are correct. Being wrong is unthinkable and we will go to any length to demonstrate our rightness. For example, “I don’t care how badly arguing with me makes you feel, I’m going to win this argument no matter what because I’m right.” Being right often is more important than the feelings of others around a person who engages in this cognitive distortion, even loved ones.
Heaven’s Reward Fallacy: We expect our sacrifice and self-denial to pay off, as if someone is keeping score. We feel bitter when the reward doesn’t come.
PeterParticipantFor me, an introvert who was taught that other people’s needs came before mine the problem of self-esteem was a problem of how I imagined other people saw me. Through nature and nurture would judge myself on what I thought others thought of me and of course compare my life with how I imagine others’ lives are. Even if others told me I had value I imagined they were just being nice and didn’t mean it.
- I was allowing others, imagined others, to define my self-esteem.
You could say that my sense of self and self-esteem wasn’t based on who I was, the things I did, or the roles I took on but on imagination…. And my imagination sucked. Worse i discovered that apparently people, especially strangers, didn’t actually spend much time thinking about me or caring about my self-esteem that I was giving them power over.
One of the first steps in taking ownership of my self-esteem was coming to terms with what it meant to be an introvert in what I felt/feel is a extroverted world. To much of my self-esteem was tied to being ashamed of being a introvert and not being ‘outgoing’, exciting, a story teller, life of the party…
The following books were helpful as I learned the value of being an introvert and how it opened me to experience the world that could be helpful in my career and relationships.
QUIET: the Power of Introverts in a World that Can’t Stop Talking by Susan Cain
I had often been told that I “think too much” and should just accept the things I was told. When I talked about what I was thinking about, a problem I was working through, others heard it as being negative or pessimistic… yet I felt optimistic
Thinking about things is part of my nature as was working through problems by identifying issues and strategies for dealing with them. However these well intention influences were telling me not to me.
In The Positive Power of Negative Thinking by Julie Norem I realized that my thinking too much was not being negative but a strategy. I discovered I was an optimist that believed that when I looked at a problem and worked out the ways things might go wrong I could and would correct those issue and everything would work out. You don’t want a strategic extrovert building your bridges you want a defensive introvert.
I guess I’m saying that my sense of self-esteem improved when took ownership of of my nature and nurture. Instead of imagining who I was I worked at finding and examining my nature and nurture. How I do things had value, who I am has value.
I won’t lie I still dream of being the extrovert that everyone loves (I imagine loves) but at my core that’s not me. However that not being me does not have to have any bearing on my sense of worth..
Anyway I hope you well on your quest for self-esteem and it is a quest as only you can find it and in finding it take ownership of it.
Trust your quest and that it has value because it is your quest! Allow yourself to be the person you are, the good the bad and the ugly. Be you!
In the thirteenth-century legend Quest for the Grail, when the vision of the veiled Grail appears to the knights in Arthur’s banquet hall to summon them each to their quest of unveiling it, the knights decide to ride forth singly, for to go in a group would have been shameful. This is the point which Campbell – the greatest mythologist of this century – holds up as testimony to a new moral initiative that is of the essence of European spirituality.
When all the knights had put on their arms, attended Mass and expressed their gratitude to their king, they ‘entered into the forest, at one point and another, there where they saw it to be thickest, all in those places where they found no way or path …. So they start their journey as individuals, each trusting to their own authority and to the mysterious power of their calling. Jules Cashford
Follow your Path
“If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Follow your bliss and don’t be afraid, and doors will open where you didn’t know they were going to be.” ― Joseph Campbell
“If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it’s not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That’s why it’s your path.” ― Joseph Campbell
“As you proceed through life, following your own path, birds will shit on you. Don’t bother to brush it off. Getting a comedic view of your situation gives you spiritual distance. Having a sense of humor saves you.” ― Joseph Campbell
- This reply was modified 8 years ago by Peter.
October 30, 2016 at 3:25 pm in reply to: The PUA/Self Imrovement Community is making me depressed #119210PeterParticipantI found the following book helpful.
Wish I had read it when I was 22How to Be an Adult in Relationships: The Five Keys to Mindful Loving – by David Richo
“Most people think of love as a feeling,” says David Richo, “but love is not so much a feeling as a way of being present.” In this book, Richo offers a fresh perspective on love and relationships—one that focuses not on finding an ideal mate, but on becoming a more loving and realistic person. Drawing on the Buddhist concept of mindfulness, How to Be an Adult in Relationships explores five hallmarks of mindful loving and how they play a key role in our relationships throughout life:
1. Attention to the present moment; observing, listening, and noticing all the feelings at play in our relationships.
2. Acceptance of ourselves and others just as we are.
3. Appreciation of all our gifts, our limits, our longings, and our poignant human predicament.
4. Affection shown through holding and touching in respectful ways.
5. Allowing life and love to be just as they are, with all their ecstasy and ache, without trying to take control.When deeply understood and applied, these five simple concepts—what Richo calls the five A’s—form the basis of mature love. They help us to move away from judgment, fear, and blame to a position of openness, compassion, and realism about life and relationships. By giving and receiving these five A’s, relationships become deeper and more meaningful, and they become a ground for personal transformation.
PeterParticipantI could just play all relaxed like they appear to, or to just play dumb and not do things.
That maybe what is known as a Fool’s Choice – These are false dilemmas that suggest we face only two options (both of them bad), when in fact we face several choices.
You can live your truths as you know them, doing your job the best you can because that is who you are without judging, labeling, comparing or imagining how relaxed others appear to be in how they do there work. All this imagining seems to be the source of much of your frustrating.
This Afternoon I went for a walk to a local coffee shop. A man was nice enough to hold the door open for me however I was preoccupied and didn’t acknowledge him with a thank you. The man in an tone a voice that to me indicated annoyance let me know with a load “Your Welcome”
The man of course could not know I was thinking about my mother who had recently past and instead perhaps imagined I was being rude and would teach me manners by a reminder with the ‘Your Welcome”. Perhaps in that moment he needed validation… Of course in that moment I was also imagining I new what the man intention was.
I won’t lie a part of me was embarrassed for my failure at not being present and angry at the man for pointing it out. So we had a moment that was likely negative for both instead of a moment that was gracious for not real reasons
Maybe we were both right – I was being rude and he was only holding open the door to be noticed for his good manners.
But
What if the man could be happy holding open doors for others, not to be thanked, but because that was who he was?
What if I could be grateful for someone holding open a door for me even in those times I’m not fully present. why should we imagine we “knew” what the other intent was and so change a moment of grace into something elsePeterParticipantYou already know how this will play out if you push it.
This issue, if you want it to become a issue, is between your mother and brother. If you get involved the issue is between you and your mother and likely one that has been recreate in various ways for a while now.
There comes a time I think when we get to decided to accept family as they are and create our boundaries to protect our peace of mind while still being respectful to the relationship.
If who they are does not meet who you want and or need them to be then keep the visits short and talk of the weather… or continue creating drama trying to get them to be who you want them to be as they try to get you to be who they need and want you to be.
It is unlikely that you and your mother’s relationship is going to change. You can keep finding stories that keep your score higher and feeling good about your judgments or just stop and instead create some inner peace for yourself. Just stop
Is the drama worth it.
PeterParticipantYou are correct this God you created in your mind is not going to help you.
To be clear this god of promises is not the idea of ‘G_d’ I was pointing to.I’m sorry life has not been kinder to you
- This reply was modified 8 years ago by Peter.
PeterParticipantI think that when religion views God as a alien being that exists out their as a watcher and judge they have missed the target – (the word sin is a old archery term to miss the target to sin then in this regard is anything that keeps us from our becoming)
Others also mistake the organization and religious teaching as being God. They mistake the map for the territory. You could argue that such organization worship a book as a idol that prevents them from seeing the forest.
Tannhauser your experience of religion has hurt you greatly.
The problem with being so angry at a God you don’t experience as existing is that you’re shaking your fist at empty air.
Believe me I relate to your experience. There is a part of me that so badly wanted to belong to the community I was raised in but unable to experience this God they claimed was so loving, just and worthy of praise. All I felt and saw was injustice and pain all of which left me feeling I must have failed and didn’t belong.
Yet no matter how hard I tried I have never been able to deny G_d’s existence and like you in a way that had me shaking my fist.
One day I got tired of shaking my fist and fighting this something that I apparently didn’t believe in. If I was shaking my fist I was shaking it at something so I set out to workout what this something was. I began a long journey of separating my experience of G_d from my experience of family, community, church, religion…
I began to look past the words, allowing the words to be transparent to transcendence and when I did began to feel that there was a something that “binds us all”. A definition of religion is that which binds us, not the rules not the words but something greater than the sum of all parts, that transcends the rules and words that can only point.
We tend to use the word God when we talk about this experience but the word God is not God.
PeterParticipantI have been reading many of the posts on this site of people asking for advice and something… I don’t know…
Do the stories we tell about an experience eventual become the experience? Do we write our story or does the story end up writing us? Perhaps there is a tipping point that we don’t notice when we surrender and allow the story to define ourselves and our present…
Anyway just a thought I had while reading your post.
I was also reminded of a book I read long ago by David Richo – When the Past is Present
Maybe that is a place for you to start in reclaiming your story and living the life you want to tell.“Though most of us want to move on from our past, we tend to go through our lives simply casting new people into the roles of key people, such as our parents or any significant person with whom there is still unfinished business.”
― David Richo, When the Past Is Present: Healing the Emotional Wounds that Sabotage our Relationships- This reply was modified 8 years ago by Peter.
PeterParticipantOne thing I have discovered is that most people end up happily surprised by the direction their education has taken them, more often then not in directions that they never considered while taking their courses.
Don’t let labels and expectations about what a carrier in a specific this or that must look like. Keep your yes open and see where you learned takes you.
PeterParticipantSome interesting reading I came across
I think what we are looking for is a way of experiencing the world that will open to us the transcendent that informs it, and at the same time forms ourselves within it. That is what people want. That is what the soul asks for. – Joseph Campbell
From “An Open Life – Joseph Campbell in Conversation With Michael Toms”
TOMS: Human beings throughout history have been searching for their source. How do you see today’s search?
CAMPBELL: I think our search is somewhat encumbered by our concept of God.
God as a final term is a personality in our tradition, so that breaking past that “personality” into the transpersonal, whether within one’s self or in conceiving of the form beyond forms – although one can’t even say form – is blocked by our orthodox training.
This is so drummed into us that the word “God” refers to a personality.
Now, there have been very important mystics who have broken past that. For instance, there is Meister Eckhart, whose line I like to quote: “The ultimate leave-taking is the leaving of God for God.”
This is what in Sanskrit is so easily expressed in Saguna and Nirguna Brahman – Brahman with qualities and Brahman without qualities. And when people would go to Ramakrishna, he would ask them how they would like to talk about God, with qualities or without? You see, that’s inherent in their tradition, but it’s blocked in ours (Christianity)
TOMS: Many people seem to be coming to the search for God.
CAMPBELL: Well, that’s the great thing about it. As soon as you smash the local provincial god-form, God comes back. And that’s what Nietzsche meant when he wrote that God is dead. Nietzsche was himself not an atheist in the crude sense; he was a man of enormous religious spirit and power.
What he meant was that the God who’s fixed and defined in terms appropriate for 2,000 years ago is no longer so today. And of course the words of Meister Eckhart give an earlier variation of Nietzsche’s remark. So the concept of God beyond God is in our tradition.
TOMS: You have to go beyond traditional concepts, don’t you?
CAMPBELL: Indeed you do. Not only for your own life, but because life is different from the way it was and the rules of the past are restrictive of the life process. The moment the life process stops, it starts drying up; and the whole sense of myth is finding the courage to follow the process. In order to have something new, something old has to be broken; and if you’re too heavily fixed on the old, you’re going to get stuck. That’s what hell is: the place of people who could not yield their ego system to allow the grace of a transpersonal power to move them.
TOMS: So it’s like coming in touch with the deeper part of life and being willing to let go.
CAMPBELL: And if you understand the spiritual aspect of your religious tradition, it will encourage you to do that. But if you interpret it in terms of hard fact, it’s going to hinder you.
Heinrich Zimmer once said, “The best things can’t be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best have to do with history.” Now, the vocabulary through which the best things are told as second best is the vocabulary of history, but it doesn’t refer to history; it refers through this to the transcendent. Deities have to become, as one great German scholar said, “transparent to the transcendent.” The transcendent must show and shine through those deities. But it must shine through us, too, and through the spiritual things we are talking about. And as long as you keep pinning it down to concrete fact, and declare something isn’t true because it didn’t happen, you’re wrong. We don’t say that about fairy tales, and so we get the truth of them. We should read our religions that way.
CAMPBELL: I think contemporary religion is in a very bad spot. And I think it is because it has taken the symbols as the referents. Religion is the constellation of metaphors, and the metaphor points to connotations that are of the spirit, not of history, as I said before. And in our religions, we’re accenting the historical image that carries the message, but we stay with the image.
TOMS: The literal interpretation, in other words…
CAMPBELL: Yes, and you lose these messages. The thing about Jesus is not that he died and was resurrected, but that his death and resurrection must tell us something about our own spirit.
TOMS: Why do you think we tend to a literal interpretation of Christ in myth?
CAMPBELL: I think it’s the result of a strong institutional emphasis in our religions in the West, and a fear of the mystical experience. In fact, the experience of the divine within you is regarded as blasphemy. I remember having given a lecture once on this problem of becoming transparent to transcendence, so that your life becomes a transparency through which light shines.
I spoke of it as “the god in you, coming out through your life.” A couple of months later, I met a young woman at another talk who had happened to be present at the first one; and she told me that when I had said “The Christ in you asks you to live,” a priest sitting next to her had said, “That’s blasphemy!” So, in institutional religion, all the spirit is out there somewhere, not in you.
But what’s the meaning of the saying, “The kingdom of heaven is within you,” if you can’t say, “It’s within me”? Then who’s in heaven?
TOMS: And, “I and the Father are one.”
CAMPBELL: All of that. Jesus was crucified because he said, “I and the Father are one.” Well, the ultimate mystical experience is of one’s identity with the divine power. That’s the sense of the Chandogya Upanishad saying which says “You are It.” That divinity which you seek outside, and which you first become aware of because you recognize it outside, is actually your inmost being. Now, it’s not a nice thing to say, but it’s not good for institutions if people find that it’s all within themselves. So there may be some point there about our particular situation in the West where religious institutions have been able to dominate a society.
TOMS: In some sense, we create our own gods.
CAMPBELL: Yes, that’s exactly what we do. No matter what name we give it, the God we have is the one we’re capable of having. That’s something people don’t realize. Simply because they’re all saying the same name for God, that doesn’t mean they have the same relationship to That, or the same concept of what It is. And the concept of God is only a foreground of the experience.
TOMS: Isn’t it important to respect our own uniqueness?
CAMPBELL: I think that’s the most important thing of all. That’s why, as l said, you really can’t follow a guru. You can’t ask somebody to give The Reason, but you can find one for yourself; you decide what the meaning of your life is to be. People talk about the meaning of life; there is no meaning of life – there are lots of meanings of different lives, and you must decide what you want your own to be.
PeterParticipantThere’s a wonderful Indian story of a young man who was told by his guru, “You are Brahman. You are God.” What a thing to experience! “I am God.” So, deeply indrawn, this young man goes out for a walk. He walks through the village, goes out into the country. And coming down the road is a great elephant, with the howdah on top, and the driver on his head. And the young man, thinking “I am God. I am God,” does not get out of the way of the elephant. The mahout shouts, “Get out of the way, you lunatic!” The young man hears him and looks and sees the elephant, and he says to himself, “I am God and the elephant is God. Should God get out of the way of God?” And of course the moment of truth arrives when the elephant suddenly wraps his trunk around him and tosses him off the road.
The young man goes back to his guru in a disheveled condition – not physically hurt, but psychologically in shock. The guru sees him and asks, “Well, what happened to you?”
The young man tells him his story and then says, “You told me that I was God.”
“And so you are.”
“The elephant is God.”
“And so it is.”
“Well, then, should God get out of the way of God?”
“But why didn’t you listen to the voice of God shouting from the head of the elephant?”
PeterParticipant“One could start just by taking a few minutes out of every day to sit quietly and do nothing, letting what moves one rise to the surface. One could take a few days out of every season to go on retreat or enjoy a long walk in the wilderness, recalling what lies deeper than the moment or the self. One could even try to find a life in which stage sets and performances disappear and one is reminded, at a level deeper than all words, how making a living and making a life sometimes point in opposite directions.”
“Going nowhere isn’t about turning your back on the world; it’s about stepping away now and then so that you can see the world more clearly and love it more deeply. ”
― Pico Iyer, The Art of Stillness: Adventures in Going NowherePerhaps a place to start is to take a few minutes every day for yourself to be still and allow the mind to rest.
Creating such a time for yourself will require you to practice creating boundaries as well as space to heal those ”broken legs”.At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement.
And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.
T.S EliotPeterParticipantI think you have set yourself an admirable goal!
The words we use matter and the word complain can be troublesome as there tends to be various semantic reaction to it. For many to complain is negative as in to accuse, attack, whine, find fault, yammer, gripe… More likely than not when we complain we complain in this way with the result that people won’t hear the issue at the source of the problem as the dialog is likely to pivot to the personal.
A pivot to the personal to avoid dealing with the issue at hand is for many a conscious or unconscious strategy of avoidance – either way unhelpful if you’re hoping to improve the situation.
When addressing an issue we can “complain” or we can communicate.
To achieve your goal to complain less you will need to learn better ways to communicate when those you work with let you down.
Based on the book Crucial Conversations One of the first skills we must master in order to create a safe place for dialog is to master our stories.
When it matters most and our emotions kick in, we often do our worst – even if we try to convince ourselves that we’re doing the right thing.
Learn to create emotions that influence you to want to return to healthy dialogue.
Others don’t make you mad, you make you mad. You see and hear something, and then you tell yourself a story. That story triggers your feelings. Then you either act on those feelings or have them act on you.
Manage your emotions by retracing your path. Return to the source of your feelings. Separate facts from feelings. You can see and hear facts. Stories, on the other hand, are judgments and conclusions that trigger your movement to silence or violence.
And watch for three clever stories:
– The Victim Story that makes you out to be the innocent sufferer. Ask yourself, “Am I pretending not to notice my role in the problem?”
– The Villain Story that emphasizes others’ negative qualities. Ask yourself, “Why would a reasonable, rational, and decent person do this?”
– The Helpless Story that convinces you that you have no options for taking healthy action. Ask yourself, “What should I do right now to move toward what I really want?”Good luck on your hero’s journey to better dialog
PeterParticipantI have often found myself stuck in my stuckness… similar to being depressed about being depressed, stuck in a loop that kept feeing itself.
Truth be told there is a part of me that is comfortable with the familiarity of my stuckness as it can feel like a safe place to be. When I don’t move there is little risk anything will change, and if something is going to change I want to control it and so be certain… but change is uncertain and feels unsafe… another self-feeding loop of stuckness and fear
“Not being stuck means the learning to be comfortable with uncertainty and not knowing. So whatever first steps you take into uncertainty have to be bearable. You can’t get overwhelmed and yet you do have to embrace movement. Movement is the opposite of being stuck. So find some small steps that are manageable that will add movement.”
If you want out of the cycle you have to move, face the fear and do it anyway. As AL said – experiment, experience, explore and discover and learn…
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