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  • in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451250
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I didn’t see through her. I didn’t see that she was bluffing.. All Those Years.. I didn’t see!

    You said it, “fake suicide threats”, I wasn’t sure. No one called them Fake before, not that I remember.

    I can imagine no one said it out loud. However your sister, once she was already a grown-up woman and had spent decades listening to the same threat, probably realized that your mother is using it to emotionally blackmail her. Probably that’s why she told her “then do it!” You don’t say that to someone who is truly struggling with suicidal ideations, but to someone who has been repeatedly using it to emotionally blackmail you. And indeed, after your sister’s remark, your mother stopped mentioning it… because clearly, she didn’t want to commit suicide – it was just a manipulation tactic.

    But as children and youth, we don’t know that. We believe our parents – and we’re afraid to lose them. So of course it works. It’s a very cruel manipulation tactic, and a very potent one, because it stops us in our tracks and we give into anything the person wants, because we’re afraid they might harm themselves 🙁

    Yes, BIG TIME! Always, 100%, no nuance, no shades of grey.

    Narcissistic behavior right there – it’s always someone else’s fault, never their own…

    So, no way to help her.. because she’s been helping herself by being always-victim. That I figured out some time ago.. She’s been helping herself the only way she knew how.. How did I say it before, in one of my other threads: I tried so hard to help her, feeling so guilty that I failed.. while all along she was helping herself to me, at my expense. So, I helped her simply by being her victim.

    Unfortunately, yes. Her playing the victim was a manipulation tactic, because she never really wanted to get better. Covert narcissistic people complain not because they want solutions to their problems, but because they want attention, they want people to worry about them, spend their time and energy on them. They also guilt-trip people for being happy while the “poor them” are “suffering so greatly”. They guilt trip you for laughing – you’re not allowed to laugh because it offends the narcissist… etc etc.

    Yes, exactly! Again, I am having this strange feeling that you were there. Didn’t have this feeling with anyone before, not irl or online.

    I think it’s a combination of my personal experience and other people’s experiences, which they’ve shared on youtube, as well as those expert videos. It seems those personality patterns are quite universal, i.e. people with a certain personality type behave quite similarly and use similar manipulation tactics. I think that’s why I may appear so “accurate”, when in fact I’m just listing the common features of this kind of parents, unfortunately.

    mission impossible, rogers that.

    Yeah, that’s a heavy realization (that we can’t really do anything to please them), but for me, it was a freeing one as well. How is it for you at the moment?

    L.Y.I.N.G. It makes me angry!

    Oh yes, a lot of narcissistic behavior is anger-inducing! And it’s a real skill to communicate in a detached way (if we choose to communicate with them). That’s why I’ve been mentioning emotional detachment so much – that’s one of the key preconditions for healing from narcissistic abuse. But it’s a process, and it’s okay to feel angry first, because that kind of behavior is certainly abusive… and we have the right to feel angry.

    Now mostly in my shoulders, back then they were everywhere and more severe, every single voluntary muscle tic-ed. It was difficult to fall asleep, and the social embarrassment was acute.

    I can imagine it was extremely hard for you, both physically and emotionally, specially during those sensitive teenage years 🙁 If it’s any consolation, I’m glad that your tics have lessened over time, which is I assume the result of healing and processing some of those emotions?

    As a teenager, I clearly remember my head jerking from right to left, as in saying NO. That tic happened a lot when she was talking to me. I remember thinking: Doesn’t she see me “saying” no? Why wouldn’t she stop talking..???

    Right.. your body was expressing what you didn’t dare to: your protest, your NO. And you’re rightly asking how come your mother never stopped to ask you what’s wrong.

    But unfortunately, it only goes to show how narcissistic parents are insensitive to their children’s needs, how self-absorbed they are: it was more important for her to meet her “need” of criticizing you than to inquire about your well-being, when you were clearly and visibly in distress… 😕

    Dear Anita, have to go now, but hope to reply to your 2nd post a bit later…

    ❤️

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451249
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I am studying the 3 health problems you mentioned and learning new things I had no idea about, and I was wondering if you’d like me to share what’s new to me? Although I’m sure a lot wouldn’t be new to you.. but something may be.. maybe?

    that’s exactly it, what I am excited about from what I’m reading, that likely you don’t need it!

    If I’m honest, I’d prefer not to go into the details of those health problems right now, since I don’t even know what my latest diagnosis will be. And I’ve really been studying a lot about it myself, over the past several years, so right now, gathering more knowledge – while not even knowing what I am dealing with – sounds counter-productive to me.

    I appreciate your enthusiasm and willingness to help, but right now, I’d prefer if we wouldn’t keep discussing those health issues and possible treatment options, for now. I hope you understand ❤️

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451246
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    this time it was less than 12 hours. There were times power was lost for days at a time, 3 days- the longest in my experience.

    Wow, 12 hours is a long time, not to mention 3 days!! No wonder you felt at times it would never come back…

    (I am still afraid to say the wrong thing, and VERY motivated not to.. so please let me know when I do, or when I might, just like you did above).

    Please don’t worry about saying the wrong thing – each of us might do that from time to time, inadvertently, because we can’t always know what another person is sensitive about, what they’d rather not talk about, and suchlike. The good thing is that we can express our preferences to each other, without either party getting offended or defensive. That’s the beauty of non-violent communication, which I too have been learning about in recent times…

    So please don’t worry, you did nothing wrong by mentioning it, it’s just that right now, at this point, I’d still like to believe that I won’t need surgery. 🙏 But thanks for your concern and offer anyway ❤️

    I like your “perplexed face emoji” (cute).. let me fetch it.. 😕

    Thanks, I’ll copy it in a doc file for future use 😊

    Fingers crossed for you, Tee. I mean, really.. really I so wish that things will get better again, that you will be hopeful and mobile again soon!!!

    Thank you so much, Anita! 🫶 ❤️

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451239
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    A neighbor of mine slipped and fell on wet or icy deck and injured her hip and spine. Was in a lot of pain for a long time, all kinds of treatments, nothing helped for long until she had some kind of implant installed in her spine. She explained it to me, sounded high tech, sci-fi (I forgot the details, but can ask her)

    I’ve got a herniated disc (at least that’s the previous diagnosis – will have to see what’s going on now), and it was possible to treat with physical therapy, fortunately. It was a long and nerve-wrecking process, but thankfully it got better eventually.

    I don’t know what’s going on now, but hopefully no surgery will be needed this time around either. Fingers crossed! So thank you, Anita, but for now I’d rather not even think about surgery options (perplexed face emoji)

    I am also looking forward to some power 🔋

    Has the storm calmed down? After a storm like that, how long does it usually take them to get the power back up?

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451237
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    thank you for your offer, but it’s actually my spine, not my knee. I have problems in both of those areas, but the spine problem got better in the last 1-2 years, and now reappeared out of the blue. So this needs to be checked. My knee is a separate problem, and the goal there is to delay total knee replacement.

    I’m really glad our conversation has been helping you, and will try to get back to you ASAP ❤️

    Hope your electricity comes back on soon, and the storm calms down too 🙏 I can imagine it’s not fun…

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451234
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    thank you for your note, and sorry for not replying as promised. I’m experiencing some health issues again, related to my mobility, and they’ve started out of the blue, unprovoked by anything I’ve done. In situations like this, my health anxiety kicks in and I’m having trouble focusing on anything else 🙁

    But I’ll try to stay positive and not get sucked into the old mindset of hopelessness and helplessness. It’s good that I’m aware of it, so I can stop myself from catastrophizing. In any case, I’m going to have it checked out by the doctor next week and see what’s going on…

    Dear Anita, if I get some relief from my symptoms, I’ll try to reply. I do hope I’ll be able to, soon. 🙏

    How are you doing?

    Take care, and hope to talk to you soon! ❤️ 🫶

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451168
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I’m glad that yesterday, when you woke up, you felt a sense of calm and something within you settling. And that some things are getting clearer for you regarding your mother, which perhaps will help you accept and process the pain more easily. 🙏 ❤️

    I won’t be at the computer whole day today, so won’t be able to reply more thoroughly till tomorrow, most probably. I very much appreciate your feedback and am really glad that this conversation is helping you. I am loving it too. 🫶 ❤️

    Wishing you a nice day today, and see you later! 😊 ❤️

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451149
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    that was beautiful! ❤️ And so profound… your conversation with Little girl Anita. Wow! I wonder how you’re feeling the next morning – if there is a change in you?

    In your conversation with LGA, you’ve come to some incredible realizations: that your main fear in your childhood (and beyond) was that your mother would commit suicide, because that’s what she was threatening to do, on a regular basis. Up until the moment your sister told her “then do it!”. That’s when the threats stopped… because she was seen through, I think.

    I think she’d realized that she cannot manipulate and emotionally blackmail your sister anymore with a fake suicide threat – so she stopped. If I’m counting well, you weren’t living with her at that time anymore – you were already in the US, so it was only her and your sister. And she realized her tactic had turned against her… so she stopped.

    I’m amazed by this profound (and heart-breaking) realization of yours:

    For all of my childhood and after, day after day, I was afraid that she’d do what she said she would. I used to pray to the stars: “Please, please, please.. please, keep her alive.”

    I stayed Home (in that prison cell) all of the years when other children played outside, socializing. I stayed home with her to keep an eye on her, to see that she doesn’t kill herself.

    I absorbed everything she dished out at me.. received the severe shaming and guilt-tripping.. so to keep her alive.

    So your main motive in your childhood, starting from the age 5, was to keep your mother alive. You stayed home and didn’t socialize with other kids (unlike your sister) because you were afraid your mother would hurt herself when you’re not watching. And so you sacrificed yourself in a way, you let her use you as her punching bag – because you were afraid that if you don’t, she might kill herself.

    You allowed very severe abuse, without defending yourself, because you thought that would keep your mother alive… That’s a very profound realization, Anita. It doesn’t mean that you didn’t have agency, but that you gave up that agency because of a higher goal: to keep your mother alive.

    And beyond that, another goal of yours was to make her proud of you, to be her hero, to save her from the miserable life that she was complaining about all the time. I imagine she portrayed herself as the victim (not just yours, but of other people and life circumstances, right?). And you were hoping you could do something to save her from that miserable life. And so you took upon yourself the role of her savior – both as in saving her from suicide, but also saving her from misery, unhappiness, sadness…

    Little girl Anita expressed that sentiment here:

    Yes, she needed a big-time hero, someone special, someone unlike any other, someone great enough to save her!

    That’s a typical stance of covert narcissistic people: they portray themselves as perpetual victims, and there’s nothing one can do help them. They want to remain victims, because that’s how they manipulate those around them, specially people who love them and want to help them.

    It seems your mother had covert narcissistic traits and she used her victim mentality to emotionally blackmail and guilt trip you and your sister. But you, the little girl Anita, didn’t know and couldn’t know that her mother is using suicide threats and constant complaints as a manipulation tactic. She thought her mother is in real danger, and that she would really do what she is threatening to do.

    Little girl Anita also believed her mother’s words that she is a victim who needs to be saved. LGA believed that she is bad and is making her mother unhappy. She also believed that other people are trying to make her mother unhappy.

    LGA believed her mother’s narrative and wanted to rescue her – which is a normal reaction of a child who infinitely loves her mother.

    Little girl Anita suffered a lot and tried everything to make her mother happy – but nothing ever worked. And unfortunately, nothing ever works with covert narcissistic people, because they want to remain the victim. Pleasing them and making them happy is mission impossible.

    I love the conversation between the adult Anita and LGA, where the adult Anita explained to LGA that her mother was actually lying when she threatened to kill herself. That she has been threatening since she was 25, and she’s now 85.

    LGA remembers your mother as being 25 years old, but now you reminded her that she is 85. I’ve been reading that our inner child often remembers our parent as young – because the inner child is still stuck in that same period, often in that same scene that traumatized us. And so it’s good that you gave her the reality check: that your mother is now old and that she never attempted to harm herself. That she’s still fine.

    It is heart-breaking to read how on that fateful night, you were running to your mother, relieved and overjoyed that she is alive. You were running towards her with your outstretched hands… and she met you with anger and coldness:

    The response, her response: angry, accusatory: “why wouldn’t I be alive?”.

    She didn’t hold me, she didn’t calm me.. She was Ice.

    You say that’s about the time when your Tourette’s symptoms started. Now I can’t find it, but I think you said your tics are mostly in your shoulder area (not sure because I can’t find it now).

    But if so, a thought occurred to me: what if those symptoms have to do with your impulse to reach out, your entire being reaching out towards your mother… and then be met with rejection? And then your arms falling down, and the impulse being forced back to you, back into the center of your body… Perhaps those symptoms have to do with that impulse being stuck in a perpetual cycle of reaching out and turning back inwards (because it was rejected)?

    I am sorry if this inappropriate and overly simplified. I don’t want to be insensitive and suggest anything that doesn’t feel true to you or that overly simplifies things. So I apologize in advance if this idea is off. But I just wanted to put it out there, just in case…

    I would also like to acknowledge the fact that your father didn’t seem to have been a gentle man, since he hit you with a belt when you wouldn’t stop crying after their argument and your mother threatening to kill herself. Instead of soothing you, he hit you with a belt! He must have been a cruel man himself?

    Another thing I wanted to say is that in some ways your mother was a victim: she had a traumatic childhood, being an orphan and probably being exposed to abuse. Then being married to a potentially cruel and cheating husband (?), and then having been left to raise 2 small children all by herself.

    Those were all very difficult circumstances, and I’m sure her life wasn’t easy. But the problem is that she remained in that victim mentality for the rest of her life, and blamed you (and your sister) for her misery. And took her anger and rage at you, punishing you, guilt-tripping you, abusing you… instead of realizing that she has a problem and needs to change something about herself.

    You had empathy for her, you tried everything to help her… but she just didn’t want to be helped, but wanted to remain victim forever.

    Dear Anita, I truly hope that working with your inner child will give you an opening and a shift from seeking validation from your mother to accepting your own worth. Because nothing would have ever been good enough for your mother, maybe even if you had become a rich and powerful person that she herself dreamed of becoming.

    There was nothing you could do to make her happy, to be good enough for her – and that’s certainly not your fault, but a fault in her character.

    Today, I say.. what if I no longer perceive her as my lifetime H.O.P.E for self worth. Will I then feel that undying love for her?

    How are you feeling about it today?

    BTW thank you for calling me the Inner Child Champion – it was nice to hear that 😊

    And yes, the bully – the world-scale bully – is the one whom you were thinking about…

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451122
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    glad it was helpful 🫶

    Yes, I know now more than I knew before. Actually, for the longest time, I didn’t know at all. I was too enmeshed with her to see anything clearly.

    Yes, I myself only learned about emotional enmeshment with my mother in the last few years. I didn’t know it either for the longest time… I was still hoping for something from her, her opinion of me was important to me.

    I didn’t realize I was actually hoping for her validation. I was hoping she would see me and understand me, and that she wouldn’t judge me. But then I’ve realized this would never happen… and so I let go of the need for her to see me in a good light. To approve of me.

    Also, I stopped trying to make her happy, because I’ve realized she is the kind of person who doesn’t want to be happy. And so me trying to cheer her up and comfort her are futile attempts…

    It doesn’t mean I have no empathy for her, e.g. when she has some health issues, I’ll always try to help and comfort her. But I’m not attached to how she would receive it – and I’m not attached to making her feel better. In other words, I’m not attached to changing her emotional state – because that’s impossible. She is responsible for that, and only she can choose to look at things more positively… but refuses to.

    Yes. I am feeling it right now, this moment. It feels like love, undying love for her. I need to keep the love, remove the object of this love. To love the wrong person, a person that’s eagerly tries to destroy you.. me, is indeed a trap, one of the prey sacrificing its life so to please the predator.

    Yes, we as children have a huge love and need for our parents, specially for our primary caregiver, which is often our mother. It’s like we’re holding our arms stretched towards our mother, wanting to be taken into a nurturing embrace, wanting to be comforted, soothed, protected…. in that embrace, we would ideally get all of our emotional needs met.

    But we often don’t get it… instead, we get rejection and abuse. But our arms keep being stretched towards our parents, and we keep thinking that if we only become a better child, our mother will finally take us into her loving embrace… We’re trying to adapt, to become more “lovable”, thinking that we’re not lovable enough…

    Our love remains unchanged and equally strong, and we’re trying to change ourselves to become more lovable. Which with toxic parents is of course a dead end…

    Now thinking about it, it’s not that our inner child should let their hands down (as in give up on love), but rather, we, our adult self, should pick up our inner child and take it into a loving embrace. We should be that loving parent to our inner child. We don’t give up on love, but we don’t seek it anymore from those who cannot give it to us.

    It’s worth it, to heal at a later age. It doesn’t feel like it’s too late. It feels very good.. It’s about time for me to feel good about me being/ becoming me!

    I’m happy you feel that way, Anita! Yes, it’s never too late to heal and become the fullness of who we are meant to be ☀️ ❤️

    W.O.W, I couldn’t have said it better. No one has ever said this to me, anything like it. So clear, so exact.

    Thank you, Anita. It’s probably watching hours and hours of youtube videos on childhood trauma and narcissistic abuse – I kind of picked up the gist 🙂 But in all seriousness, it’s my personal experience plus the explanations by experts that helped me wrap my head around what I’ve been through and what others in a similar situation might be going through. In any case, I’m really happy it is helping you 🙏

    To me, our conversation is life-changing. From suspicion, distrust, hostility on my part to => softening, trusting (because you are trustworthy!), a shift. Feels like I am rejoining the human race, the Togetherness lost so long ago, dissolving the separateness.. Because of you, Tee, because of your very intelligent input and understanding, because of your grace and forgiveness, and my ability now to receive it.

    I’m so happy you feel this way, and that the distrust and fear are slowly melting away ❤️

    You’ve made a major step towards that opening: you’ve let go of your defenses and mustered the courage to hear even painful things about yourself, which is not an easy thing. You had the spaciousness, the openness, the vulnerability to say “I see your pain, even as I am feeling my own pain.”

    And that I think is your True Self in action – a part of us that has compassion both for ourselves and others, that is willing to listen with an open heart and mind, that feels togetherness with others… I think you’ve stepped into your true, authentic self and this is the shift you’re experiencing… and to me, it is beautiful to behold and be a part of ❤️

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451085
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Grateful for your message 🙏 🙏 🙏

    you’re very welcome!

    Yes, it did. Problem was I kept going back to her, flying across the world to see her and be with her which killed my joy every time. So, going back to the U.S., eventually, was not joyful anymore.

    Every visit with her was retraumatized me, and every return to the U.S. took longer and longer to recover from time until there was no recovery (many years of depression). My healing process started in 2011. Shortly after I started therapy back then I ended contact with her, no more visits.

    Good that you stopped those visits.. if each visit made you more and more depressed, if it killed the joy in you, then of course it’s better to stay away. The problem is – and you know it too – that even if we move thousands of miles away from our abusive parents, the emotional bond is still there. We’re still enmeshed with them, we want them to love us, our sense of self-worth still depends on how they see us…

    Sometimes no physical contact doesn’t mean no emotional attachment. Not at all. But of course, it’s easier to let go of that toxic emotional bond if we stop visiting the toxic parent and stop getting more of the same abuse. As you said, it only retraumatized you.

    However, the problem is that your emotional attachment to your mother still remained. Your inner child still wants her to love you. You still need her love and validation in order to feel lovable and worthy… And that’s a trap.

    The goal of healing is to start feeling lovable and worthy even if our parents weren’t able and will never be able to give us what we need, i.e. to meet our basic emotional needs. They gave us physical life, but many of them were not able to give us emotional nurturing, which is a precondition for a healthy personal development.

    So we’re stunted in development, basically, because some basic building blocks are missing. But the good news is that we can make up for what’s missing by getting those basic emotional needs met later in our lives. It’s never too late for that…

    But to return to your question about your mother:

    Why can’t she see me, Tee? Why can’t she hear me?

    Because she herself was/is a wounded, traumatized child. She never received love and care during her childhood, and someone “seeing” her and appreciating her. And so she couldn’t give that to you either. She parented you from her wounds and defenses, rather than her true self.

    And, which is also important – she never stopped to ask herself: “why, there must be a better way to live. There must be something I can do to help myself. Perhaps if I change, I could have a better life. Perhaps I am contributing to my own suffering”.

    That’s something a person with narcissistic traits never does. And so she didn’t either. In her mind, it was you who were making her life miserable – it wasn’t anything that she did. She saw you responsible for her internal terror. She had no awareness of her own wounds, her own trauma, nor was she interested in learning about that. Instead, she projected the badness on you, blaming you for causing her pain and suffering.

    You were an innocent, precious little girl, whom she unfortunately used as her punching bag, as a way for her to relieve her internal tensions and keep deluding herself that she is not the problem.

    I think that’s what happened, Anita. She was someone with a lot of unresolved mental health issues, and as such, she was totally inadequate to be a parent. But she still became a parent and had two beautiful children, whom she didn’t know how to parent. You two became the victims of her untreated mental health problems.

    That’s what I believe happened. I wonder how you feel when reading this?

    Oh my God, Tee.. I am speechless. You’re happy about me opening my heart and mind, happy about where we’re now?

    Of course I’m happy 🫶 It’s a good feeling to be able to talk to someone honestly, with an open heart, with vulnerability, and see that openness in the other person too. And I’m very happy that our interaction took this turn… it’s definitely something I cherish ❤️

    P.S. I like our 🙂s too 😊

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #451072
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear me,

    sorry for just popping up in your thread. I haven’t read all of it, but did get the general idea about a certain insecurity in you regarding this girl, which Roberta and Anita aptly identified as the push-pull dynamic.

    There’re probably deeper reasons for this, but I don’t intend to go into that but just share something I’ve read today about a celebrity couple (whom to be honest I don’t know much about, but liked their love story anyway): so it’s about singer Dua Lipa and actor Callum Turner.

    They both travel a lot for work and have very little time to meet, but still, they meet whenever they can, even if it’s only for 2 days. They have a saying “Making the trip to see one another is never not worth it.

    He said:

    “If you can go for two days, just f*ing go. And if you’re tired, it doesn’t matter because you’re going to have a nice time and have a nice memory”.

    And she said about their relationship:

    “That vulnerability is so scary, but I feel so lucky to get to feel it…. I’ve spent a lot of time being guarded or protecting my heart, and so I’m letting go of that feeling and just being like, ‘Okay, if I’m supposed to get hurt, then this is what’s going to happen.’ I have to just allow love”.

    When I saw that you’re only 3 hours away from this girl, I thought to myself that it would be such a pity if it ended like that: basically she complaining that she feels lonely, and you never visiting, finding excuses, and yet wanting to visit.. arrghhh 🙂

    Anyway, this is my 2 cents. I love myself a good love story 🙂 I think it would be awesome if you actually gave it a chance…

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #451061
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    You’re welcome!

    I lived in a prison, life put on hold for a later time when it’d be allowed. There were times though, I remember, I was an older teenager or in my early 20s, still living with her, that I exploded with laughter, genuine laughter, a long-awaiting joy.. never when with her alone. Moments of feeling positively alive. A breath of fresh air.

    Good to hear that, Anita! It means she didn’t manage to kill all the joy in you. There was still life in you, and it would bubble up sometimes, when you were alone, when she couldn’t see you or hear you. And perhaps that life was what motivated you to move across the world from your mother and seek happiness there? In a new, far-away place where her abuse cannot reach you?

    yes, my analysis (and I am feeling confident about it), she suffered from- and inflicted suffering- from this combo of personality disorders: Narcissistic, Histrionic, Paranoid, Borderline and Obsessive- Compulsive.

    Yes, that’s tough. What’s hard about it that she seemed to have been functional otherwise, i.e. she didn’t seem like someone with mental health issues on the outside, right? I mean, she could pretend in front of other people that she is a kind, caring person, and a kind, caring mother, right? (except for what the neighbors heard sometimes…). You said she was “soft-spoken, nice” with your uncle, for example.

    And that’s I guess the narcissistic part: where the person can pretend to be certain way, which is socially acceptable. Where they can keep a certain public image, which is totally different than how they are in private.

    So it was only you (and I guess your sister) who knew how your mother actually is. I know you’ve talked about your sister before, but I don’t remember if your mother treated you two differently? Was she equally harsh and abusive to your sister too?

    I clearly remember her sitting to his right when he asked me a question about me, looking at me threateningly, with that mild smile on her face. That’s why I didn’t answer him. I said something polite, but didn’t answer.

    Right. You knew you weren’t allowed to say anything that would be “unacceptable” to her, which probably meant anything genuine about yourself. She had a mild expression on her face, but you knew how she is underneath… and so of course, you didn’t dare to be honest with your uncle.

    Thank you for sharing about parallels or similarities in your life, your process. It makes me feel like I am not alone.

    You’re welcome, Anita, you’re definitely not alone. ❤️ There are a lot of similarities in how we were brought up, even though it was harder for you. But mine too is a decades-long battle, years and years of working on myself and gradually healing. And there are still blocks that I’m working on, although things are getting better…

    this made me smile just now. Of course.. Tee and Inner Child healing go together like peas and carrots 🙂

    (I just got scared that you’d be offended by this culinary saying.. it’s a saying I like to use).

    Hehe, yes 🙂 Actually I wanted to put a smiley at the end of that sentence (“And of course, my answer is always: healing the inner child..“). So no offense here at all, healing the inner child is my go-to answer for most big problems 🙂

    I trust you enough to invite you to talk to my inner child directly. I have never invited anyone to do that. I know you will be gentle with her (there are tears in my eyes as I am typing this). She can’t handle criticism.. she shouldn’t (that’s my job, the adult me, to hold myself accountable. Not her job).

    No one outside of me ever spoke to her, or had a conversation with her. Please do talk to her.

    Actually I didn’t think to talk to your inner child directly. I thought you would do that… I just wanted to notice that it seems your inner child is still looking for validation from your mother (based on your post on Oct 10, 12:45pm). The little girl Anita believes she is bad and she wants her mother to love her and tell her she is not bad:

    I hate being bad. I don’t want to be bad. Help me, help me be good.

    Sounded so true, 100% true.. Am I BAD.. Make HER say I am not bad. Make her say I am not…

    The little girl Anita is still looking for something (love and validation) from her mother – which unfortunately she most likely won’t receive. Her mother (your mother) doesn’t seem to be capable of that.

    I can imagine that looking for validation from your mother is what might be keeping you stuck in the feeling of “not good enough”, the feeling of worthlessness, “badness”.

    You’d need to release that longing and “radically accept” that you cannot get it from your mother. That she just isn’t capable of giving it to you. And that it doesn’t make you a bad person, or a bad daughter.

    I wonder how this sounds to you?

    Thank you for your grace, nothing that I (the adult) deserved, but something you offered anyway. This is the nobility of your character ❤️.

    Well, you did apologize for what happened in the past and have opened yourself up to a different perspective. That’s why we can now talk to each other ❤️ So it’s not quite true that it’s nothing you’ve done. You’ve changed your attitude, you’ve opened your heart and your mind – and here we’re now. And I’m very happy about it ❤️

    in reply to: Safe and Brave #451059
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Peter,

    I’ve just noticed something I haven’t noticed before in what you said here:

    I recall conversations years ago where I admitted feeling that the hope I was leaning into was making life grim and depressing. The hope I was taught was tied to unmet expectations projected onto some imagined life after death where all would be well… I wondered if it might be better not to hope at all. When I shared this, the response was nearly universal: You have to have hope, or you’ll fall into despair. – Despair on one side, despair on the other – a catch-22.

    It seems you were taught to hope in a glorious life after death, where all your sorrows would be gone. Such a religious doctrine usually makes excuses for the suffering we’re experiencing in the here and now, and even enables abuse. Instead of dealing with the abuse, and encouraging the believers to seek a better, more fulfilling life in the present, this doctrine is giving false hope of a better future while turning a blind eye on the current abuses – on the problems that could be and should be addressed.

    Such doctrine is disempowering the believers, telling them to remain in suffering and to give up (or never develop) personal agency, with which they could change their lives for the better.

    And then if you don’t feel like hoping in something imagined, distant and unreachable, and when you feel frustrated by the life you’re told to live in the here and now – the religious leaders and others in your surroundings tell you that you have to hope, otherwise you’ll fall into despair.

    So they’re trying to keep your spirit alive by offering false hope as the only remedy against the suffering you experience in the here and now. And then perhaps even guilt-tripping you that if you don’t have that hope, you’re not a good believer.

    I wonder if that’s the experience you grew up with (or encountered at some point in your life)? Because it certainly teaches a false notion of hope – basically hope that is not based in reality, but in wishful thinking. Illusion, as T.S. Eliot called it:

    Take the statements: “Life without hope is a grim one.” “Live without hope.” They sound similar, but they point in opposite directions. The first assumes hope is essential for meaning. The second, echoing T.S. Eliot, invites us to let go of clinging to specific outcomes. It doesn’t suggest despair, but rather a posture of openness, of freedom from illusion.

    You rejected that kind of hope. And I say: good for you! You started looking for different ways to deal with the pain you were experiencing:

    That led me to a deeper question: why, when we try to change a story we tell ourselves, do we feel such pressure, both internal and external, to replace it immediately with a new one? What are we so afraid of in the silence between narratives?

    When I considered removing my story of hope, I was told the only alternative was to fill that space with a story of despair. But over time, I’ve learned this isn’t true. You can stop telling a story without replacing it. You can leave the space open, and remain whole.

    You rejected the false notion of hope, and you opened yourself to the unknown: to live without hope. Live without that kind of hope. The disempowering hope, which keeps one stuck in unnecessary pain and suffering.

    It’s not the kind of hope that helps us deal with the suffering that we cannot escape, with life circumstances that we cannot change. Rather, it’s the false hope that discourages us from changing what we actually could change.

    If I understood you well, that’s the notion of hope you rejected. And you opened yourself up to something new…

    I just felt like acknowledging that, Peter. I feel I can now better understand why the notion of hope is so important to you and why you’ve been trying to clarify it to yourself and others. I’d certainly benefited from your contemplation, so thank you 🙏

    in reply to: İf anyone says spirituality is… #451048
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear James,

    Humans are virus meaning is not as body, but as who thinks they are separate then other things.

    I agree with this, James. If we think we’re separate from other beings and from mother nature, that leads to huge problems, such as exploitation, destruction of the habitats, pollution… nowadays we’re experiencing the consequences of climate change more and more. And as Roberta said, the Western man has the infamous history of colonization, looking down at and exterminating indigenous populations, pillaging their resources… all very painful points for our “civilization”.

    So I agree, there can be great darkness in humans, great cruelty and lack of understanding. At the same time there can be great light too…

    Moreover, doctor can save a pet yet and kill it at the same time, like animals. Such as, cat can Save a kid from attack of dog, yet crocodile or shark can kill a human being.

    Yes, the animal kingdom has its own rules. Sometimes the animal that is weaker or wounded is the one that gets eaten by a predator. Sometimes nature can be cruel, even as it can be magnificent and soothing. But it is all well, it is according to the laws of nature.

    However, we humans should show more mercy, much more mercy towards our fellow human beings, as well as animals and plants too. There’s a saying “Homo homini lupus”. We shouldn’t behave like predators to each other. But unfortunately, we know examples from history and even the present day when this is not the case… where people do behave like predators to each other. And that to me is horrifying 🙁

    That’s why realization is important, body and mind are one with universe. İf there is no water, body dies, if there is no air body dies, etc…

    I agree – we’re one with the universe. We depend on Mother Earth’s resources for our sustenance. We depend on the Sun too, without which everything on Earth would die. We are so fragile, so small under the stars… and yet, our hearts can be huge and full of love… if we understand, if we connect to who we really are ❤️

    in reply to: İf anyone says spirituality is… #451043
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    sure, I was actually thinking the same – that it would be better to take the conversation to your thread… see you there, gladly! ❤️

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