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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • This topic has 222 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks ago by Tee.
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  • #434642
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I am glad you are safe and sound! I also hope that your friends who remained on Jamaica are safe too.

    According to the news, at this moment the hurricane has already left Jamaica and is continuing towards the Cayman islands. One woman has died, unfortunately. But according to reports, the devastation wasn’t as huge as on Carriacou island, which was completely flattened.

    I understand your mother wanting to protect you and get you to safety – it’s a very natural instinct. Of course she cares about her child’s safety. In extreme situations like these, where your physical life is in danger, it is only normal to get you out of the harm’s way, which she did.

     

    You say your parents believe that almost every Caribbean person (or at least those they know) is morally corrupt:

    They rarely find any Caribbean person who has not done immoral things.

    Most of the people they know have slept around or are involved in some kind of immoral drama, so they naturally develop a stereotype for them and attribute their behavior as part of that person’s culture.

    It was interesting for me to read that there is corruption and immorality in your own community as well:

    another guy falsely accused my mother of revealing his secrets but my father was able to figure out the accusation was based on manipulation and false information cause my mother never did anything that she was accused of.

    my dad used to be the treasurer of the community and he was responsible for handling the money affairs as well as another guy and both of them were accused of stealing community money but he was able to prove to them that the person who was actually taking the money from the treasury was a third guy, who just so happened to be the one who started the accusation in the first place.

    Nobody challenges my father because he knows what is right and what is wrong and will not participate in any corrupt activities or get himself involved in the politics of manipulation like the other men.

    My father stepped down as the treasurer cause he doesn’t want to get involved in the community politics after that incident.

    It seems that some community members are involved in lying, cheating, stealing and making false accusations against innocent people. And it seems it’s not just one isolated case, since you talk about “politics of manipulation”. And your father decided to step down from his position, because he didn’t want to be involved in such corrupt politics.

    Which tells me that not only Caribbean people are involved in immoral activities, but also those in your own community.

     

    I would like to go back to what you’ve recently said about yourself:

    I am just an embarrassment to my parents cause of all my stupidity and awkwardness and inability to talk to people and etc. Maybe it is just me. My lack of maturity, my inability to be of use to my parents, can’t even help them with their chores/work, my lack of intelligence, my lack of skill in anything, or the fact that I am a complete idiot. While the other kids became mature and responsible adults, I just became an immature idiot. I may be the best among my cousins, but I am still immature in the eyes of my parents since I will never be good enough compared to other children my age.

    I have accepted my flaws, but society won’t. Cause society still requires a certain level of maturity,which I still lack.

    You claim that you lack wisdom, intelligence, maturity or any skills. However, throughout the course of our conversation, you said very different things about yourself. For example:

    You have expressed that you are considerably wise, not stupid:

    I always told her that if she is unsure, she could ask me for any advice as my father’s wisdom was passed down to me over the years that he taught me.

    Everything that my father taught me was logically correct, but I was wise enough to know that there are exceptions to the wisdom he passed to me. I did not let his opinion about things completely blind me, but it guided me to make even better decisions than he did, but I still have a long way to go as shown by the current situation.

    I am not stupid enough to use their love as a role model.

    I am not dumb enough to just blindly believe what B showed me.

     

    You have expressed that you are more mature than your peers:

    I cannot deny the fact that all of this treatment shaped me to be a better man than most of my peers morality-wise.

    My peers may be happier than me and enjoying life and etc, but I am definitely glad I am not doing their foolishness, like smoking weed, drinking alcohol and sleeping with a bunch of woman and etc.

    my obedience has kept me from going in the wrong direction like the guys here with me. I won’t do anything stupid or get involved in any wrong activities.

    The emotional suffering they put me through has forced me to be the most mature for my age among all my cousins so I am definitely grateful for that as well.

    Their wisdom still taught me to be a good man to the best of my ability.

    If it weren’t for him, I would just be some immoral idiot like my “friends” but instead I am known for my honesty and care.

     

    You said you were on of the top students in your country, which makes you rather intelligent:

    We were all scoring very high in exams and getting into prestigious colleges and getting high salary jobs. Even I was one of the top students in the country at one point, and so are others from our community. Each year, there is at least one top student that is from our “emotional abuse” community.

     

    You said you possess respectable music skills:

    I have studied music for 10 years and have taken the exams up to 6 levels out of 8 with scores in distinction, and my guy friend definitely knows my level of skill regarding music.

     

    So this tells me that a part of you doesn’t believe that you lack wisdom, intelligence, maturity or skills. On the contrary, it tells me you believe you possess all those qualities. But sometimes you seem to forget it, or you view yourself from your father’s perspective, who sees you as as an idiot, no matter what you do. (He cares enough to ask about my issues, but once I tell him my issues he just treats it like I am just being an idiot.)

    I am the way I am cause of my father, both the good and the bad. My father is the one who taught me to be caring and loving, even though I never got it from him. If it weren’t for him, I would just be some immoral idiot like my “friends” but instead I am known for my honesty and care, and even taken advantage of cause of that nature. These idiots know that no matter how many times they hurt me, it won’t change the fact that I still care. That is my stupid weakness.

    It seems you take some pride in being so care-giving to those “idiots” who don’t deserve your help? It seems you feel better than them.

     

    #434666
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “I am glad you are safe and sound! I also hope that your friends who remained on Jamaica are safe too.” Apparently my guess was correct, there wasn’t as much damage as we expected, especially since Jamaica has a lot of mountains so my campus was pretty much safe.

    “It was interesting for me to read that there is corruption and immorality in your own community as well” Well obviously no person is that perfect, they would have been involved in some kind of politics but the type seems to vary depending on the type of people.

    “Which tells me that not only Caribbean people are involved in immoral activities, but also those in your own community.” Oh come on, I am not that stupid. I am not saying that only Caribbean people are involved in immoral activities. But activities similar to cheating on their partner and other similar immoral activities appear to be higher among the Caribbean community. My community has its own set of corruption, usually religion-based or just plain politics of turning people against each other and stuff and financial cheating. One guy got murdered right in front of his kids cause he was a businessman who managed to steal a 20 million dollar diamond from another businessman.

    You have expressed that you are considerably wise, not stupid” Lol don’t misunderstand, I am aware that I have some wisdom, and I know that I can definitely make better decisions than B, but that doesn’t mean my so-called wisdom is enough. There are a lot of skills that I still lack. I am not stupid enough to use their love as a role model, but I was still stupid enough to not see through B. I am not dumb enough to BLINDLY believe B, but I was still dumb enough to trust her when I shouldn’t have before the whole mess started. Me learning from my mistakes doesn’t change the fact that I was still dumb enough to make those mistakes. I have made good decisions before but they were not good enough to save me from my suffering. My father gave me enough wisdom to guide B to make better decisions but it didn’t save me. I still fell for the things my dad warned me about. I will still be viewed as immature and stupid cause there are many skills and knowledge that I still lack. I have wisdom, intelligence, maturity and some skills, but I don’t enough of it to put to good use. I can make good decisions but they are not good enough. That is why I said that I still lack wisdom and etc.

    You have expressed that you are more mature than your peers” I know I am mature, I am just not mature enough. I may score 40% in my exam, and it may be the highest score among all my peers, but it is worth nothing because it not enough. I am more mature than my cousins, more mature than a lot of my peers, but that doesn’t mean it is enough because I still lack a lot of maturity. I have guests over at the house rn and they will be staying with us for a while. They have 2 kids really close to my age, and I know for certain that I am more mature than them, but that doesn’t mean I am mature enough. Especially not compared to an actual adult. That is why I say I still lack maturity. But it still doesn’t change the fact that these kids are better off than me. One got accepted into a prestigious college with full scholarship all the way in Australia and she is also going to be studying med. The other is still in high school scoring higher than I ever did. The other kids I know are in Toronto and New York and North Carolina and other places now and they have made so many achievements that my achievements look like nothing. Even the kid I used to teach is one of the top students in the entire country and his scores make my top scores look pathetic and he got accepted into a good college too. What did I get? I got stuck with Jamaica cause I didn’t get accepted into the other colleges or I could not get a scholarship that could handle their huge tuition. I chose Jamaica to reduce the financial burden on my parents. But even then they are paying 28k for just the tuition. I am not as good as I wanted to be. Now I have multiple exams I need to retake cause I missed the passing mark by a few percent. I may have good morals, but morals can’t substitute my lack of intelligence and skills etc.

    You said you were on of the top students in your country, which makes you rather intelligent” My scores were the highest at the time, but they were not good enough to get me accepted into the good colleges. The others managed to get into good colleges due to their interview skills and other test scores for the colleges. Not to mention, some of them had the government supporting them. Like my guy friend. He got a scholarship from the Bahamian government despite scoring lower than me but I didn’t get any scholarship. The kids from our community graduating now have scores that make my scores from back then look pathetic, that is just how big the gap is. My parents are not making it any better for me by showing me all the awards and etc those kids got while I had no awards when I was graduating.

    You said you possess respectable music skills” Yes I have good music skills, but they are nothing in the eyes of other musicians. I may look good in front of non-musicians, but compared to my classmates in the music class, my scores were no where close. My sight reading skills are so poor that the teacher had to take me aside from the rest of the class to provide me with private training for it. And that skill is still poor, I barely improved it for the sake of passing the music exam. Fortunately it did not have a large impact on the final score, which is why I managed to get a distinction. I ended up sitting in my class watching as the other kids played difficult pieces while I had been practicing the same song for the past 5 years cause there was no better piece for me. AND EVEN THEN, they managed to play the song better than me. Imagine how pissed I was. So when I see all this “evidence” you can’t blame me for hating myself for the things I lack.

    “It seems you take some pride in being so care-giving to those “idiots” who don’t deserve your help? It seems you feel better than them.” No it is the opposite of that. It makes me sick cause I know I will only be taken advantage of. I know that kindness, love and care is generally a good thing, but for me specifically, all it has done is cause me more misery. Besides too much caring can be bad too. Like I cared too much about the girl my dad wanted me to talk to. Cared too much that I forgot to give her space. That is why we ended up breaking our friendship. Because I am just too stupid to stop caring. I know that my kindness and caring nature is good, but caring too much is the part that I hate. Like there could be a homeless man and if he were to ask me for money or something and I can’t give it to him, it irritates me and stays on my mind and continues to bother me. My uncle with the cheating wife had the same weakness, which apparently is one of the reasons why she left him. Idk if his issue was that he cared about others too much, but whatever his reason may be, he always helped out people without expecting anything in return, whether it be financially or physically or etc. And the annoying part is that everyone takes advantage of him for that reason, by borrowing money and never returning it, and he is not a rich guy anyway. He was so kind that he even bought cake and gave a large amount of money to the guy his wife was cheating on him with, without an ounce of suspicion. He wasn’t even suspicious when his wife removed her wedding ring. His own wife took advantage of his nature. That is why I told you a while back that my uncle is known to be a very good man in the community, even other families were grieving for him when his wife left him and they all shunned the wife and kicked her out of the community entirely. It is one of the reasons why I hate making friends, cause either they reject me or make me beg for their friendship or just use me for their own gain.

    I know who I am. I know the good in me and the bad in me. I just hate the bad side of me cause I won’t survive in society if this keeps up. Whether it be my inability to communicate properly, my stuttering, my lack of knowledge, etc. The only good thing going for me is my good morals, but good morals won’t exactly save me in society cause you need to be at least a little street smart to survive.

    Paradoxy

     

    #434690
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    There wasn’t as much damage as we expected, especially since Jamaica has a lot of mountains so my campus was pretty much safe.

    Happy to hear about that!

    I am not saying that only Caribbean people are involved in immoral activities. But activities similar to cheating on their partner and other similar immoral activities appear to be higher among the Caribbean community. My community has its own set of corruption, usually religion-based or just plain politics of turning people against each other and stuff and financial cheating. One guy got murdered right in front of his kids cause he was a businessman who managed to steal a 20 million dollar diamond from another businessman.

    Okay, so perhaps it can be said that the Caribbean community is more prone to sins of sexual nature (lust, adultery), while your community more to sins of financial nature: greed. And creating division among people (“turning people against each other”), which to me would be like sowing seeds of division and conflict, rather than love, mutual respect and understanding.

    I am not as good as I wanted to be.

    Your main problem is the belief that you are not good enough. Which affects your self-confidence and your communication skills, as well as the impression you make at interviews (The others managed to get into good colleges due to their interview skills and other test scores for the college).

    You believe you are not good enough because your parents believe you are not good enough. In fact, your father sees you as an idiot and has seen you as such for a long time. You can never be good enough in the eyes of your cruel, strict, judgmental father.

    When a child and a youth believes they are not good enough, all kind of learning difficulties can ensue, and even self-sabotaging behaviors like drug abuse and alcohol. If you are constantly under pressure to perform and are severely punished and criticized for not performing well enough, it naturally diminishes your capacity to perform, both at school and in what you actually like: music.

    In this last post, you keep berating yourself, being stuck in the “woe is me”. And refusing to believe that change is possible.

    I was trying to help you see that you don’t need to stay stuck, even if you physically still depend on your parents. That you don’t need to stay stuck mentally and emotionally in that bitter place. But you keep pitying yourself, defending your parents and staying stuck. And it’s a rather tight mental loop, almost a box, which cannot be opened.

    Because you have an excuse for everything and you change your stance as needed: When you need to defend your parent’s parenting skills, you portray yourself as wise and mature – because that’s supposedly a proof of their successful parenting. But at other times, when you want to “prove” how inadequate you are, you portray yourself as stupid and immature.

    The end result of our every discussion (i.e. the message you want to convey) is that you are bad, they are good. And there is nothing that can convince you of the opposite.

    I wish I could help you open that airtight container. But I realize I can’t. And I don’t want to run around in circles, trying to help you, when you actually want to (at least for now) stay stuck in self-blame and self-pity, and are refusing to look at the real causes of your suffering.

    I wish you well, Paradoxy, but most of all, I wish you real healing.

     

    #434724
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Dear Tee,</p>
    “Okay, so perhaps it can be said that the Caribbean community is more prone to sins of sexual nature (lust, adultery), while your community more to sins of financial nature: greed. And creating division among people (“turning people against each other”), which to me would be like sowing seeds of division and conflict, rather than love, mutual respect and understanding.” Yes that is 95% accurate, but of course there are exceptions in every case. Also keep in mind that these conflicts are also tied with religion, not just race, as most of the corrupt activities are conducted by Hindus. There are some corrupt Christians and Muslims too but the number is considerably small compared to Hindus, but also remember that Christians and Muslims are in the minority here. Even the government back home is so corrupt that they fuel this religious disparity to manipulate the Hindus into voting for the corrupt government so that they can be reinstated to continue more corrupt activities, and almost all of these activities are based on greed/financial gain. You will barely find any corrupt activities of the sexual nature among us, which is one of the reasons why my country has one of the lowest divorce rates.

    “You believe you are not good enough because your parents believe you are not good enough.” I believe it is a cycle, where my parents’ insult decreased my confidence, and the lack of confidence caused me to screw up my communication skills and actual work skills, and the lack of those skills provided a reason for my parents to insult me, and so the cycle continues.

    I am in the process of breaking out of this cycle, which is why I am trying to make sure my parents are not involved in my life. But no matter how hard I try, they find a way to wriggle back into my life and take control of my activities using their parental authority.

    “But you keep pitying yourself, defending your parents and staying stuck.” I am not defending my parents exactly, I am just acknowledging the truth in their criticism. Even though I am the way I am cause of them, what am I supposed to do when I try to speak confidently but my peers shut me down and treat me like an idiot? I even heard one of my group members say that I was useless. Obviously that would affect my confidence too. How can I change the fact that academically, I am not where I should be despite trying so hard? That affects my confidence too. How can I stop people from abusing my kindness? It hurts when people take advantage of me you know.

    What about the fact that I lack basic skills like cooking? I have been trying to learn it for the last 3 years and I still can’t get it right. I can’t even cut an onion properly. Do you know how embarrassing it was for me when I completely butchered an omelet when my dad was sick and I had to make him breakfast cause my mom was working? The only reason why I survived this long is cause I am mainly cooking for myself and not for others. But what about the fact that I can’t even tell whether I used too much seasoning on the food based on the taste? And academically, I can’t even tell the difference between different parts of the specimen. I can’t even identify the difference between the veins and arteries. I know the theoretical part, but I can’t get the practical side at all. Imagine how stupid I feel having to sit in those labs while everyone else is answering the questions but I can’t. I even tried attending extra classes and even had a private session with the specimen and myself. When my parents see all these things about me, they would view me as someone worse than a donkey.

    I told u already, my scores were considerably higher than my guy friend’s scores in high school, but in med school, his scores are higher. He only failed one exam while I failed three. What the hell do I tell my parents when they ask me how in the world did I fail more than him? And obviously, that hurt my confidence too. And as a result of facing this evidence, it created doubt in me and caused me to get “stuck” in this “mental loop”.

    “The end result of our every discussion (i.e. the message you want to convey) is that you are bad, they are good. And there is nothing that can convince you of the opposite.” No, that is the message you understood, that is not the message I am trying to convey. I am simply listing out all the facts, and I do not want to create a biased argument, so I tried explaining my side AND their side so you could understand both sides of the situation. It would just be wrong for me to blindly say my parents are abusers without properly explaining their side of things. Hope you can understand.

    Paradoxy

    #434726
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    There are some corrupt Christians and Muslims too but the number is considerably small compared to Hindus, but also remember that Christians and Muslims are in the minority here.

    You are talking about a country in the Caribbeans, with the majority Indian population, right? I’ve just looked it up, and it could be Guyana, Suriname or Trinidad and Tobago. While you study in Jamaica. That’s why you said your parents live thousands of miles away, right? (“I can’t do anything without fearing them, even though I am thousands of miles away from them”). I was under the impression that the distances in the Caribbeans are not so huge, but they are, obviously 🙂

    You will barely find any corrupt activities of the sexual nature among us, which is one of the reasons why my country has one of the lowest divorce rates.

    Okay, infidelity leads to a higher divorce rate, that’s for sure.

    I believe it is a cycle, where my parents’ insult decreased my confidence, and the lack of confidence caused me to screw up my communication skills and actual work skills, and the lack of those skills provided a reason for my parents to insult me, and so the cycle continues.

    The cycle had its starting point somewhere: in your childhood. They call the first 7 years of our life the formative years,  because that’s when the building blocks of our personality are formed. Our parents have a major impact in the formation of our personality. That’s the foundation of the “house”, which we have been talking about before.

    After that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, because you feeling not good enough and unworthy makes you perform worse and have worse interpersonal experiences, which in turn have a negative impact on your studies, as well as your social skills and whether you feel rejected or accepted by your peers.

    And it grows like a snowball – we are getting more and more “proofs” that we are unlovable and incapable, which is cementing those false core beliefs. But it all starts with those formative years, where our parents play a key role. What happens later are the consequences of those formative years.

    I have been trying to learn it for the last 3 years and I still can’t get it right. I can’t even cut an onion properly. … I can’t even tell whether I used too much seasoning on the food based on the taste?

    I was also a late bloomer when it comes to cooking. At 19, I didn’t know how to prepare a single meal. But I can tell you – not “feeling” it and being insecure about the taste has to do with embodiment – with the ability to be present in our body and feel all the sensations. And with trusting ourselves that we can make it right (get the taste right).

    You’d need to be in touch with your body and your feelings for that, and you lack that. You are suppressing a lot. So believe it or not, you’d need to learn to feel all the feels if you want to be a good cook. One side-effect of healing would be improved cooking skills 🙂

    I can’t even tell the difference between different parts of the specimen. I can’t even identify the difference between the veins and arteries. I know the theoretical part, but I can’t get the practical side at all.

    Yeah, I am familiar with the problem: being good at theory, but sucking in practice (in driving skills, for example 🙂 ). Again, it’s the embodiment thing. If you are too spaced out, all in your head, of course you can’t know what’s going on in the body.

    Medicine is a very visceral thing – you can’t master it from the books only. When we are separated from our body (like you are – suppressing your emotions, not wanting to feel certain things), we can’t really be good doctors, God forbid surgeons. So again, healing would help you be a better medical student as well.

    I am not defending my parents exactly, I am just acknowledging the truth in their criticism.

    Oh you are Paradoxy. Let me give you an example. This is what you said about their emotional abuse:

    The emotional suffering they put me through has forced me to be the most mature for my age among all my cousins so I am definitely grateful for that as well.

    You excuse their emotional abuse and are even grateful for it, because it supposedly made you more mature than your peers. At the same time, you refuse to see how their emotional abuse negatively affected your self-confidence, communication skills and e.g. the ability to make a good impression at interviews.

    You refuse to see the negative impact of their upbringing and are even grateful for the abuse they’ve put you through, because it supposedly had positive impacts on you. Which is like saying that drinking poison didn’t really harm you – on the contrary it had a positive impact on your body. Which is called self-deception.

    This is why I am saying that you are defending your parents and refusing to see how they have contributed to your present-day problems. Instead, you are blaming exclusively yourself, claiming that you would have been the same person even with different parents. Which is not true.

    So you are washing them free from all responsibility, and even claiming that their abuse did you good. Which as I said, is severe self-gaslighting.

     

    #434739
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    “You are talking about a country in the Caribbeans, with the majority Indian population, right?” No, wrong again. I live in the Bahamas. The majority ethnicity here is Bahamians and most of them are Christians. The Indian community here consists of mostly Hindus, and most of them are businessmen or accountants etc involved in some kind of business scheme which sometimes tend to be fraudulent. The Christians among us Indians are more in the medical field, varying between nurses and doctors mainly but there are some teachers and some engineers like my father among us. The disparity between the religious groups tends to cause political conflict between the members of the community to the point that the organization had to be completely shut down or reduced to barely any activity. However, this just reflects how messed up India actually is. The politicians there take advantage of this religious disparity to cause conflict and hate between the religious groups and because the majority consists of Hindus, the government manipulates them into reinstating the same party as the ruling party, making them believe that the government is supporting them when actually they are just using their time to get themself involved in more corrupt activities cause of their own greed. The government and the people are so stupid that they managed to convince the Hindus that they can fight the coronavirus by just making noise with a bunch of plates and other cooking utensils. Even highly educated Indian fools in the US were stupid enough to believe the government and make noise with their cooking utensils.

    “I was under the impression that the distances in the Caribbeans are not so huge, but they are, obviously 🙂” Ok that was a mistake on my part. The distance is just around 500 miles, with a one-hour time zone difference, but my point remains the same: they are still able to maintain control of me despite the distance.

    “You excuse their emotional abuse and are even grateful for it, because it supposedly made you more mature than your peers. At the same time, you refuse to see how their emotional abuse negatively affected your self-confidence, communication skills and e.g. the ability to make a good impression at interviews.” No u misunderstand. I do acknowledge that their emotional abuse did negatively affect me. Are you familiar with the phrase, hard times create strong men, strong men create easy times, easy times create weak men and weak men create hard times? The harsh treatment I received from my parents and my peers developed the sense of morals that I have today, both good and bad, and despite all my suffering, it motivated me to pursue one of the hardest careers. I may fail in my interpersonal relationships and I may be mentally and emotionally unhealthy, but it is not like anyone actually cares about whether I am healthy or not. What society cares about is what I bring to the table. And I am going to bring medical care. Maybe I will never be truly happy, but at least I know that one day I might be able to bring a smile to someone else.

    “Which is like saying that drinking poison didn’t really harm you – on the contrary it had a positive impact on your body.” Lol. Actually, the more accurate comparison would be that I slowly drank poison in small amounts until I eventually became immune to it. So yes, I did suffer in the beginning, but eventually, I might just get over it and use it to propel me forward. Maybe God made me go through this so I understand what it feels like. Maybe he figured that some things are best learned by experience. Maybe he placed B in my life to teach me to not trust someone blindly. Maybe it is self-deception, but hey, it could be a possibility yk?

    “This is why I am saying that you are defending your parents and refusing to see how they have contributed to your present-day problems.” I am not defending them. I am looking at the positives and the negatives. I can’t just look at the bad side only. Maybe I would have been different if I was not Indian, but if I grew up with a different Indian family, the result would be the same. Changing my parents won’t exactly change the lifestyle, and it definitely wont change how my peers treat me.

    “So you are washing them free from all responsibility, and even claiming that their abuse did you good. Which as I said, is severe self-gaslighting.” Please don’t misunderstand. I am not saying they don’t deserve the blame. I am saying that we have to acknowledge that they are the reason for my bad side AND my good side. They are not responsible for just the bad. I am grateful for the good, and I hate the bad. That is all I am saying. I am not defending them. I definitely won’t be forgetting the things they did.

    Paradoxy

    #434744
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    no wrong again

    what do you mean “wrong again”? You never said which country you live in, only that you live in the Caribbeans. Is this some kind of quiz and you enjoy pointing out that I didn’t know the answer?

    You said earlier that “Christians and Muslims are in the minority here“. I thought you were talking about the Caribbean country you live in, where there is a majority of Hindu population, and those 3 countries I mentioned above came up as a possibility. But no, apparently you were for some reason talking about India, even though we were discussing various ethnic communities in the Caribbeans. And then, when I didn’t guess which country you live in – because you weren’t even talking about it, but about India – you tell me “wrong again”. Really?

    Now you admit that you exaggerated the distance between you and your parents, because Bahamas and Jamaica are not  “thousands of miles away“, but “around 500 miles, with a one-hour time zone difference“.

    That too was misleading because I couldn’t understand how come you are so far away from your parents – where are those “thousands of miles” of distance in the Caribbeans? Well, now it’s clear that there are not…

    Are you familiar with the phrase, hard times create strong men,

    And are you a strong man? If so, then why do you complain about being immature, lacking intelligence, skills, performing poorly left and right, failing exams, not having friends, or being used by so-called friends etc etc?

    I know who I am. I know the good in me and the bad in me. I just hate the bad side of me cause I won’t survive in society if this keeps up. Whether it be my inability to communicate properly, my stuttering, my lack of knowledge, etc. The only good thing going for me is my good morals, but good morals won’t exactly save me in society cause you need to be at least a little street smart to survive.

    You complain that you are unable to survive in the society with all of your weaknesses, and yet, your are a strong man?

    I may fail in my interpersonal relationships and I may be mentally and emotionally unhealthy, but it is not like anyone actually cares about whether I am healthy or not. What society cares about is what I bring to the table. And I am going to bring medical care.

    But how when you complain that you can’t differentiate between veins and arteries:

    Academically, I can’t even tell the difference between different parts of the specimen. I can’t even identify the difference between the veins and arteries. I know the theoretical part, but I can’t get the practical side at all. Imagine how stupid I feel having to sit in those labs while everyone else is answering the questions but I can’t. I even tried attending extra classes and even had a private session with the specimen and myself.

    I am glad that you are so optimistic about medicine and about being a strong man, but then don’t complain about being the opposite. Decide what is true and what is self-deception.

     

    #434780
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “what do you mean “wrong again”?….Is this some kind of quiz and you enjoy pointing out that I didn’t know the answer?” Please don’t misunderstand, I said “wrong again” in reference to the times that you have gotten the details mixed up/misunderstood.

    “You said earlier that “Christians and Muslims are in the minority here“. I thought you were talking about the Caribbean country you live in, where there is a majority of Hindu population, and those 3 countries I mentioned above came up as a possibility. But no, apparently you were for some reason talking about India, even though we were discussing various ethnic communities in the Caribbeans. And then, when I didn’t guess which country you live in – because you weren’t even talking about it, but about India – you tell me “wrong again”. Really?” No, you misunderstand. AGAIN. I was talking about a community that is WITHIN a Caribbean country. If you go back to the context, you will notice that I said the phrase “Christians and Muslims are in the minority here” under the response where you were asking about the sins done by the Caribbean community versus my community. I thought it was quite obvious that the phrase applied to the community I live in, not the country I live in. It was only AFTER that, I proceeded to explain the corruption in my country of origin, which is India. I was talking about the ethnic communities in the Caribbean, but you misunderstood that I was referring to India, as shown by your statement “But no, apparently you were for some reason talking about India, even though we were discussing various ethnic communities in the Caribbeans.”. Ethnic communities in the Caribbean is EXACTLY what I was referring to. YOU misunderstood and assumed that I was talking about India when I said that “Christians and Muslims are in the minority here“. I did make a reference to India, but it was AFTER I explained the situation regarding the community here, and I thought I made that clear when I said “Even the government back home….“.

    Let me make it very clear for you. You asked me, “You are talking about a country in the Caribbeans, with the majority Indian population, right?” No, I was talking about a COMMUNITY with the MAJORITY Indian population, not COUNTRY. But that Community is PART of a Caribbean country, which is the Bahamas. I corrected you in my response by describing the Indian community, and how the financial corruption takes place in this community. But you misunderstood because you were quick to be offended when I said you were wrong and didn’t understand the part where I was RE-EXPLAINING how Hindus were involved in corruption in my COMMUNITY. I was re-explaining the corruption to make it clear for you that I was referring to the community and not the country.

    “That too was misleading because I couldn’t understand how come you are so far away from your parents – where are those “thousands of miles” of distance in the Caribbeans? Well, now it’s clear that there are not…” Yes that was a mistake on my part because I never looked up the actual distance. But that doesn’t change the fact that even if I was in a country thousands of miles away from them, I would still be monitored by them daily. Like even if I was all the way in Australia, they would still find a way to maintain their control because “I don’t know any better”.

    “And are you a strong man? If so, then why do you complain about being immature, lacking intelligence, skills, performing poorly left and right, failing exams, not having friends, or being used by so-called friends etc etc?” Firstly, I am not a strong man yet, but I am in the process of becoming strong, by healing past all of this. That is the whole point of the phrase “hard times create strong men”. Strong men form when they grow past their trauma and heal. Secondly, I am not complaining. I was just listing out the reasons for why I am so bothered because I thought you would understand. I was just adding more detail to why I feel this way so that you could understand me better. I didn’t know that my own words were going to be used against me like that. If I were complaining, I would constantly be trying to get other people’s pity instead of being silent and enduring through all of this like I am doing right now.

    “You complain that you are unable to survive in the society with all of your weaknesses, and yet, your are a strong man?” I never called myself a strong man, I said that my hardships WILL make me a strong man. But that requires me to move past the trauma and heal first. And I was not complaining, I am just acknowledging my disabilities and I was trying to explain to you why my parents’ words hit me hard.

    “But how when you complain that you can’t differentiate between veins and arteries” Do you not get it? I am obviously working on those issues. I just haven’t gotten past those things yet. I am just going into second year of med. I still have several years ahead of me. I told you those things because they are things that currently act as “evidence” that supports my parents’ beliefs about me. I told you those issues so you could understand why it is so hard for me to move on from what my parents said, not for you to use those things against me. I am just worried rn cause it is crucial that I get past those issues.

    Again, I am NOT complaining. I am just explaining the reasons why it is hard for me to not worry when I have disabilities like the things I listed that can have a huge impact on my future if I don’t get past it.

    Also I am not trying to disrespect you in any regard, so try not to misunderstand my intentions.

    Paradoxy

    #434781
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    No, I was talking about a COMMUNITY with the MAJORITY Indian population, not COUNTRY.

    Okay I get it now. You were talking about the Indian community, where the majority is Hindu, and minority (like you and your family) is Christian or Muslim. However, it wasn’t very clear to me, specially when combined with “thousands of miles” of distance. So I thought: ok, Guyana (or Trinidad and Tobago, or Suriname) is about 1-1.5 thousand miles from Jamaica, so that might fit. So I did rush into a conclusion, but it was partly because you provided a misleading information about the distances.

    And it is true, your words “wrong again” did trigger me, because I’ve experienced this dismissive, antagonistic style many times from you, and I don’t appreciate it at all. You frequently dismiss the things I say, argue, deny, reject my advice, explain why the things I suggest wouldn’t work for you etc etc.

    Honestly, communicating with you is like hearing one big NO. One big rejection. And it hurts. It’s like being punched in the stomach. That’s why I sometimes delayed opening your posts, because I knew there is a high chance of being faced with another rejection, another explanation that I “misunderstood” and why my suggestions wouldn’t work or are even laughable.

    All that done in a rather rude, dismissive manner, telling me things like “wrong again”, or “Do you not get it?”, as if I am some idiot who is not understanding you. When in reality, it is you who is changing position all the time – mostly portraying  yourself as someone with so many faults and hopeless to change anything, but when I tell you that you are complaining and are stuck in self-pity, then you suddenly portray yourself as strong, and “working on those issues. I just haven’t gotten past those things yet.”

    But this what actually happened: When I tried to show you that you don’t lack intelligence, since you were one of the top students in your country, or that you don’t lack skills, since you said you have music skills, you proceeded to give more “proofs” about your lack of intelligence and skills, saying that you don’t even know the difference between veins and arteries and how awful you feel in classes:

    Academically, I can’t even tell the difference between different parts of the specimen. I can’t even identify the difference between the veins and arteries. I know the theoretical part, but I can’t get the practical side at all. Imagine how stupid I feel having to sit in those labs while everyone else is answering the questions but I can’t. I even tried attending extra classes and even had a private session with the specimen and myself.

    You also proceed to complain about your music skills:

    Yes I have good music skills, but they are nothing in the eyes of other musicians. I may look good in front of non-musicians, but compared to my classmates in the music class, my scores were no where close. My sight reading skills are so poor that the teacher had to take me aside from the rest of the class to provide me with private training for it. And that skill is still poor, I barely improved it for the sake of passing the music exam. Fortunately it did not have a large impact on the final score, which is why I managed to get a distinction. I ended up sitting in my class watching as the other kids played difficult pieces while I had been practicing the same song for the past 5 years cause there was no better piece for me. AND EVEN THEN, they managed to play the song better than me. Imagine how pissed I was. So when I see all this “evidence” you can’t blame me for hating myself for the things I lack.

    So when I tried to boost your confidence and tell you that it’s not true that you lack intelligence and skills, you proceeded to give more proofs that you do indeed lack intelligence and skills.

    And now, you are claiming that you are not complaining, and that I used this information against you:

    I am not complaining. I was just listing out the reasons for why I am so bothered because I thought you would understand. I was just adding more detail to why I feel this way so that you could understand me better. I didn’t know that my own words were going to be used against me like that

    The truth is that you were complaining – you were listing further proofs why your original claim that you lack intelligence and skills is still true. You didn’t say something like “yeah I have some issues with understanding anatomy, but I am working on them”. Instead, you said “Imagine how stupid I feel having to sit in those labs while everyone else is answering the questions but I can’t.” Are those the words of someone who is hopeful and is working on issues?

    So when I see all this “evidence” you can’t blame me for hating myself for the things I lack.

    Are the above the words of someone who is hopeful and is working on issues? Or someone who is convinced that they have a reason (or many reasons) to hate themselves?

    So I reject your accusation that I was using your words against you. I was just quoting your words to show you the discrepancy between your claim that your parents’ poor treatment made you stronger and your own words which show pessimism, self-blame and self-loathing (and lack of strength, indeed).

    I am just worried rn cause it is crucial that I get past those issues.

    I do hope you will get past your issues. I hope you believe that you can.

     

    #434811
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “You frequently dismiss the things I say, argue, deny, reject my advice, explain why the things I suggest wouldn’t work for you etc etc.” I was pretty sure I explained the reasons why some of ur suggestions won’t work. I didn’t ignore your advice. I simply stated that some of your advice won’t work in my situation. But there are some advice that I did accept, so don’t assume that I am just being stubborn without reason.

     “Honestly, communicating with you is like hearing one big NO. One big rejection. And it hurts. It’s like being punched in the stomach. That’s why I sometimes delayed opening your posts, because I knew there is a high chance of being faced with another rejection, another explanation that I “misunderstood” and why my suggestions wouldn’t work or are even laughable.” Yes I understand that. But sometimes that big No is the truth even if we hate it. Would you have preferred if I just played along and accepted your suggestions and pretended like it was helping me even when it does not? I am not saying that your advice is completely wrong. I said that your advice wouldn’t exactly work for my situation due to specific factors involving my life that affects it. You would have to LIVE my life and EXPERIENCE it to understand all the various factors that affect every situation. It is much easier to advise someone when you have not experienced the things they have. You are only able to understand my situation based on the things I have stated, and I can’t point out every single detail because there is a lot and I won’t remember all of the details at the time of writing the message. And when you advise me using the information you already know, I respond by adding specific details to the situation that make it seem like I am rejecting your advice. I have already acknowledged that you are right about my parents being the root of my issues regarding my low self-esteem, and that cycle is supported by the experiences I had with my peers. I am not defending them or anything, but I have to look at things from their perspective too. They are not even aware of the things they are doing, because they are treating me way better than their parents treated them and so they are satisfied with how things are. Besides, I don’t complain to them either, so they never saw my suffering, so they end up continuing the torture on me. Again I say to you, I am not defending them. I am simply looking at the situation from both sides: from the victim’s pov and the abuser’s pov. I have acknowledge their role in this mess, and I forgive them for it but I am not forgetting what they put me through. Besides we cannot change the past. What I can do right now is work on my healing. But the damage done has such a deep and strong root that it takes more than just a few suggestions to pull it out. When I respond to your suggestions by adding details, don’t assume that I am rejecting your advice out of spite, I am just letting you know the other factors that affect the situation. Like the fact that my parents will still maintain control of my life and my decisions no matter how far away I am. Like the fact that everyone will support my parents, and not me when I decide my own path, because they all run on the principle that parents are always right and children are wrong.

    “All that done in a rather rude, dismissive manner, telling me things like “wrong again”, or “Do you not get it?”, as if I am some idiot who is not understanding you.” I understand how you feel, but don’t forget the number of times you misunderstood me due to some missing details. Just like how you get tired of advising me, I also get tired of always correcting the misunderstanding, especially when you are quick to assume that I am insulting you and rejecting your advice for no reason, when in fact that was not even my intention.

    “When in reality, it is you who is changing position all the time – mostly portraying  yourself as someone with so many faults and hopeless to change anything, but when I tell you that you are complaining and are stuck in self-pity, then you suddenly portray yourself as strong, and “working on those issues. I just haven’t gotten past those things yet.” “ That is also a misunderstanding. A brave man is not brave cause he has no fears, it is because he still stands up despite being most scared person there. I am working on my issues, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have things I don’t worry about. I am working on my issues, but that doesn’t mean nothing bothers me, it doesn’t mean that I don’t have my faults. And when I tell you the things that bother me, I don’t want you to assume that I am complaining and self pitying, cause I could have chosen not to explain the details to you and just kept things to myself like I do to everyone else.

    “When I tried to show you that you don’t lack intelligence, since you were one of the top students in your country, or that you don’t lack skills, since you said you have music skills, you proceeded to give more “proofs” about your lack of intelligence and skills, saying that you don’t even know the difference between veins and arteries and how awful you feel in classes” Yes exactly, I stated those proofs to show you that despite knowing that I am smart, that intelligence is not good enough when compared to other people. When you go for a job interview, they pick the best out of all the applicants, and not just based on who is smart, cause I am pretty damn sure that all the applicants are smart, but only the one with the most intelligence would be valued by society. That is what I worry about. I know that I am smart, but I am not smart enough. It is a fear. I am not complaining or self pitying. I am simply telling you my fear, cause I go into those labs and exams and see the questions and it scares me that I am finding it so difficult to answer the questions while the other students are breezing through it. THAT is what I am trying to explain to you. I could become a doctor by getting 50% on the exam, but the person who became a doctor with 90% score would be more valued by society. I am a piano player and musician, but when compared to others, my skills are not that great, and so if there was a concert or some place that required a musician, I would not be picked. That is a fear that I have. I am not complaining or asking you to pity me or anything. I am just listing out my fears, the things that bother me, please don’t misunderstand that. I stated all these things for you to UNDERSTAND how I feel. Me listing further proof should not be considered complaining.

    “Are those the words of someone who is hopeful and is working on issues?” No it is not the words of someone who is hopeful and working on issues. But it is the words of someone who is desperately trying to convey the feelings and emotions that they go through on a daily basis. I am not complaining to you. I am asking you to understand that feeling of having to sit in class not knowing the answers, while everyone else are able to answer the questions freely. That feeling of being useless. That doubt that forms in your mind, making you wonder if medicine was the right choice. That doubt that forms, making you wonder whether you will be able to handle all of the work load. That is the feeling I was trying to convey to you. I was not complaining about it.

    “Are the above the words of someone who is hopeful and is working on issues? Or someone who is convinced that they have a reason (or many reasons) to hate themselves?” No, It is the words of someone who is trying to convey the reasons why they feel the way they feel. Not because they want pity or they want to complain. But to know that someone understands that feeling. But someone like you can’t understand that unless you are actually put in that situation like I was. Having to sit there when your classmates look at you like an idiot, having to sit there and listen when your own group members say that you are useless, having to sit there as your own friends look down on you like a burden on them, having to sit there fearing that the teacher is going to pick on you, fearing of being humiliated in front of everyone for not knowing the answer. When you have been put in that situation countless times, you end up hating yourself. But that hate won’t stop me from continuing to work towards fixing myself. That hate I have towards my flaws don’t mean I will give up. Cause if I was going to give up, I would have kept up with my suicidal attempts and made sure I killed myself a long time ago. So don’t misunderstand, I was just stating the REASONS WHY I hate myself, I didn’t say anything about giving up.

    “I was just quoting your words to show you the discrepancy between your claim that your parents’ poor treatment made you stronger “ And I am trying to show you that despite the suffering, it did serve some good. I told you that I have some guests in my house and compared to those two kids, I am a thousand times more mature than they are. They received too much love and freedom and so even the smallest criticism can make them cry. And they are the ages 16-18. The older one is diabetic, and her dad told her that she shouldn’t eat too much sugary content and she instantly got vex and went to her room to cry. Imagine that. She cried over one simple criticism. Comparing that to the severe comments my parents made towards me, I definitely feel stronger than her. Idek how she is going to survive in college if she is this fragile. The younger one is always saying some ridiculous and stupid thing all the time for no reason. He is going in to Grade 11 and this idiot has no awareness of his surroundings, always doing something stupid or saying something stupid and literally makes no sense. This kid drives me nuts with his foolishness I swear. So compared to that, I definitely feel stronger than them. That is the point I was trying to convey to you. Hope you understand.

    Paradoxy

     

     

    #434819
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    When you have been put in that situation countless times, you end up hating yourself. But that hate won’t stop me from continuing to work towards fixing myself. That hate I have towards my flaws don’t mean I will give up.

    I stated all these things for you to UNDERSTAND how I feel. Me listing further proof should not be considered complaining.

    I understand how you feel, and I tried to help you stop hating yourself, because that’s possible too. You don’t need to live with that hate and march on, with your teeth clenched, like your father. You can change that basic feeling about yourself.

    What I can do right now is work on my healing. But the damage done has such a deep and strong root that it takes more than just a few suggestions to pull it out.

    I understand that too, and that’s why I suggested therapy. Reading about communication skills – which you have been doing – won’t be enough.

    And I am trying to show you that despite the suffering, it did serve some good. … Comparing that to the severe comments my parents made towards me, I definitely feel stronger than her.

    Yes, the abuse increased your endurance level – so you can take more abuse without reacting, without showing to your parents that it bothers you. But that’s not true strength. It’s the clenched teeth lifestyle, with lots of suppression and negative feelings about yourself.

    Anyway, I do hope you find solutions for your problems, solutions that involve more self-love and self-compassion, and less endurance of abuse.

     

    #434853
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Thank you for listening and all the support you have provided me. Hopefully, I will be able to get past all of this and learn to love myself.

    Paradoxy

    #434858
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    you are welcome. I hope the same for you and wish you all the best!

    If you ever want to talk about learning how to love yourself, I am here. I needed to learn that too, and it only happened well into my adulthood.

    Godspeed to you!

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