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TeeParticipantDear Katrine,
in my previous post, I didn’t express myself well. I said “I think he is sending you mixed signals and playing with your feelings”. Well, he is definitely sending you mixed signals, but he isn’t playing with your feelings on purpose. He does it because he is afraid of relationship. So I agree with anita and am pretty sure that yes, he likes you, but he is afraid to admit it.
I needed to know that i wasn’t crazy for starting to think he liked me.
You are not “crazy” for thinking that he likes you, you’re not imagining things, your perception is correct! How does this knowing that he likes you (and that your perception is correct) make you feel?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine Nielsen,
after reading your latest posts, my opinion of him has slightly changed: I think he is sending you mixed signals and playing with your feelings. Perhaps he himself doesn’t know what he wants. Because you did declare your interest in him. You said “I’m sorry for today your not interested it’s hard for me to read people.” And he replied: “No I’m not interested, your amazing person but I don’t see you that way.
His behavior up until till latest development indicated that he is more than interested, but then he sort of blew it, by 1) coming to the yoga/karate class with his brother, 2) being high, so that he couldn’t even pronounce words properly. Both of those behaviors (bringing along a third person on what was supposed to be a date, and being high) are romance killers, so it seems like he wanted to ruin it on purpose.
It could be that he is soooo afraid of relationship, that he’d rather sabotage it than risk getting into one. Because his behavior on the yoga date surely looks like sabotage or self-sabotage. And then he confirmed it by telling you that he wasn’t interested in you. I don’t think this is necessarily true, it’s more likely that he got cold feet.
But still, you can’t force someone into a relationship, so if he really isn’t interested, or has a strong fear of relationship, there is no point in pushing it. Perhaps it’s for the better, since he seems very confused and not in a good place mentally. He even told you that “he gets sick of people and places fast because of his mental health.” So perhaps he’s afraid that he would get sick of you too, and he doesn’t want this to happen? So he is sort of protecting you from himself by not wanting to get involved?
TeeParticipantDear Katrine Nielsen,
it’s good to hear from you again!
I think, or rather, I am pretty sure, that he likes you. But he is very shy and it seems he is afraid of rejection, so he doesn’t want to “make a move”, although he had plenty of opportunities for that.
I’m very protective of myself and don’t want to think a guy likes me if he is just being friendly with me.
That’s a good approach in general – better not to imagine things that aren’t there. But in this case, you aren’t imagining, he shows a very strong interest in you.
I ended up leaving without saying goodbye to him cuz i wasn’t feeling well. I shut down for a week and basically avoided looking at him and talking to him
Were you physically unwell? I don’t quite understand why you later avoided looking at him and talking to him? Is it because you left without saying goodbye and felt embarrassed about it?
the week after he shut down and did the same
Probably he thought you don’t like him and felt rejected, so he shut down as well, to protect himself.
Let me ask you – do you like him? If so, maybe you should show it to him, because right now, he might be thinking the same about you: that you are just friendly to him, but nothing more.
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
if the answer to my previous question is yes (that you did try to communicate but your wife refused), then the problem is mostly in her and her fear of emotional intimacy and vulnerability, I think. You did say that she fits the profile of dismissive avoidant attachment style (My wife is very independent and does have trouble communicating. She is more dismissive avoidant type).
You say she is independent – what do you mean by that? Usually people with avoidant attachment don’t like to ask others for help and believe they should do everything by themselves (they don’t like to rely on others). But you said that your wife was grateful for your help and acknowledged that you helped her a lot (I did a lot to help with anything and she knew that. She even said that she felt like she was using me as I was always willing to help). So it seems she wasn’t the type who would refuse physical/material help. Could you shed some light on what do you mean by her independence?
TeeParticipantOK, so you would ask, but she wouldn’t tell you what’s wrong? When she kept you in the dark, you’ve tried to approach her, but she refused to communicate?
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
I think part of the problem was that I cared too much. If I felt tension I would always want to know what was wrong
At those times when your wife was giving you the cold shoulder and when you felt that the distance between you was growing – have you asked her what’s wrong?
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
As for me not being there to help in challenging times that is incorrect. I was always there to help her and I did, I did a lot to help with anything and she knew that. She even said that she felt like she was using me as I was always willing to help.
I apologize for assuming that you weren’t there to help. I assumed it because you said you went to your mother’s place when the “house got smaller and smaller” and when your wife needed some space. I thought that at those times your wife was very busy with her children and other tasks, and you felt like she cannot give you the attention you needed, so you got out of her way, not to disturb her. Even if the latter is true – that you felt a little neglected at times – I now realize that this doesn’t mean you didn’t help your wife in the household or otherwise (providing a generous settlement is a great example of that!). I am sorry for making that assumption.
When we got back together for a few weeks but then she said she needed space I asked her why. She told me that she needed to gather herself a bit as I think the feelings my have started becoming a bit too intense for her. I said that’s fine and she said it was hard to tell me that because I am always there to help and that I’m always nice.
She needed space because she needed to gather herself. Those are her words. Your interpretation is that “the feelings may have started becoming a bit too intense for her.” But you don’t know that for sure. I think she is conflicted and that’s why she needs to “gather herself”. She needs to decide what she wants. On one hand, she appreciates your help and generosity and the fact that you are always nice. But on the other, there is something bothering her, and I don’t think it’s just that her children have an issue with you.
I will dare to say that she too has an issue with you, and it could be because you never asked her those deeper things, and maybe she felt like you didn’t care? It’s again an assumption on my part, but if there was no communication between you, and the distance was growing, it’s very likely that there was some resentment on her part. She actually showed it by behaving strangely around Christmas and then giving you the cold shoulder in January…
I guess I should say through when we were being intimate with one another it was good. We had very good chemistry in that regard.
It could be that when you spend some time apart, she feels the spark again. But when you are too close together, and she feels burdened by a lot of things, and on top of that you behave emotionally needy (a little bit like a child of hers), that spark is gone.
You say:
I also feel closest with her through physical touch. At some point that wasn’t being reciprocated. I’m not just talking about sex but just any kind of physical affection.
I can imagine that if the emotional distance between you grew ever larger, then no wonder she didn’t feel like being physically close either. I’d say emotional intimacy is a precondition for physical intimacy.
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
My wife told me that she wanted a separation because she was emotionally tapped out. She couldn’t do it all. Be a wife, mother and caretaker.
I went back and read your first post more carefully, and realized that her mother stayed with you only for a few weeks in January. She moved out at the end of January (Her mom had moved out at the end of January), and that’s when your wife asked for a separation.
I can imagine she was felt very burdened during her mother’s stay, however, her mother moved out – so the stress should have been lesser. Instead of feeling relieved that things can now go back to normal, it is then that she chose to end things with you. It’s as if her mother’s stay was just the last drop in her feeling bad about the relationship for some time. It seems she was feeling “emotionally tapped” even when her mother was not there.
The major cause of stress, as it seems, was her son’s resentment towards you. But she didn’t tell you anything about it back in October 2021, when you started noticing it (and asked her about it). She said her son was going through some stuff, but didn’t say what those problems were. You didn’t ask because you didn’t want to pry. So you didn’t know, and she didn’t tell you, that her son’s issues were related to you, not to something else.
During that fall of 2021, the tensions grew (Our house got smaller and smaller with her and I both working from home), and you sometimes went to your mother’s place, because you “knew your wife needed some space”.
Around Christmas – when her mother was still not living with you – you felt that something was off, but again, you didn’t ask anything, and she didn’t say anything (Then Christmas hit and something didn’t feel right but I was kept in the dark.) She “kept you in the dark”.
At the end of January – towards the end of her mother’s stay – your wife started behaving visibly cold with you and it lasted for almost a week (the end of January my wife for almost a week was giving me the cold shoulder). Again, you didn’t ask anything, she didn’t say anything. Eventually, at the end of that week, when no one was at home, she told you she wanted a separation.
The fact that she never set down to discuss things with you, and that she was withholding the information that her son was resenting you – tells me that she didn’t really want to try to mend things. It seems to me that she made the decision to leave you, and was just waiting for the appropriate moment (when her mother left) to inform you about it. Probably that’s why she didn’t want to try counseling either. Her decision was made.
It seems to me that you didn’t try to understand what was going on in her head, even when she was giving you the cold shoulder. That’s why you don’t know what she really felt, what bothered her, why she left you, and why she doesn’t really want to communicate with you now:
When her mom started living with us I was unhappy but I put up with it and didn’t really voice my feelings and she probably sensed that as well. I don’t know.
She’s very independent and I think she just wanted to be a single mom again and not have the responsibility of being a wife as well. I don’t know.
It’s just hard now that she has kind of cut communication and doesn’t want to go see the concert we bought tickets for. Maybe it’s because she doesn’t want to open up, maybe it’s because she finds it too hard to see me. I don’t know.
You don’t know because you never asked her. And she never told you. But maybe she would have told you if you asked her? It seems there was this wall of silence between you, and that both of you were reluctant to voice your concerns. Neither of you wanted to be honest with the other.
It seems to me that she saw herself primarily in the mother and care-taker role, and had lots of guilt about not meeting everyone’s needs. The problem is that you confirmed that role by not really communicating with her, not asking how she was feeling, what was bothering her etc. Instead, you would leave to your mother’s place when your wife felt overwhelmed (and couldn’t meet your needs).
Probably it only confirmed to her that she cannot count on your help in challenging times, but rather, that you too (like everybody else around her) have demands on her. She probably saw you more like another child of hers, not like a partner.
When you gave her a very favorable settlement for the house, she suddenly saw you as a man – as someone who can protect her and GIVE to her, not just ask from her. And that made her fall in love with you all over again! But it didn’t last for long, because the old patterns – both in you and in her – are still active.
Anyway, this is my view of the situation. What do you think? Would you agree that the dynamic between the two of you was more like that of a mother and a child, and not two grown ups?
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
I haven’t noticed it before, but now that anita brought it up, I also feel that you don’t really know what was your wife feeling and thinking when she asked for separation. You don’t understand why it happened and are only guessing, because it seems you didn’t really have an honest and open communication with her.
You say that you had a good relationship with her son, until something happened, but you don’t know what. You asked your wife and she told you her son was going “through some stuff” but didn’t tell you what that stuff was. You didn’t ask further because you didn’t want to”pry”.
Actually, it wouldn’t have been prying because it was directly related to you, and he is your stepson. Prying would have been if you wanted to know intimate details about a neighbor, but not if you are worried about your stepson pulling away from you for no apparent reason. I think you deserved an honest conversation with your wife, but it never happened.
Also, you say that you don’t know why you slept on the couch and not in your stepson’s room. BTW I thought that you started sleeping on the couch only when your wife’s mother moved in. I thought that in Sept 2021, when you wife complained about your snoring, you moved to your stepson’s room and that you basically swapped places with him. But it seems this isn’t what happened?
I think it would be important to answer this question (if not here on the forum, at least to yourself): Why indeed did you sleep on the couch and not on the bed, in your stepson’s room, which was free at that time? Was it because his room was “off limits” and you wouldn’t be welcome there? Or it was you who didn’t want to intrude? Or no one offered you to sleep there? Please try to answer this question as honestly as you can, because it may reveal a few things about the dynamic between you and your wife, and about your place in this blended family.
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
You are very welcome.
So after the renovation, you did have 3 bedrooms, if I understood well? In one bedroom slept you and your wife, in another her daughter, and in the third one her son, right? (during the renovation, her son slept in the same room with the two of you, but in his own bed).
So after the third bedroom had been renovated, there was a time when her son slept separately, in his own room? Was he happy with you while you were all sleeping in the same room, but then started pulling away when he needed to move to his own room? It could be that this triggered his feeling of abandonment, and he started to complain to his mother? And it culminated by your wife proclaiming that she can’t sleep due to your snoring, and basically sent you away to another room? And this enabled her son to return to sleep with her…
Of course, it’s also possible that she really couldn’t stand your snoring any more, but was too polite to mention it earlier, not to hurt your feelings. And then in September 2021, after almost two years of being married to you and living with you, she finally had enough and told you. But it also could be that she wouldn’t have done it if her son didn’t complain about the new sleeping arrangement… Can you shed some light on that? Do you think that her son started pulling away from you when he was sent to sleep in his own room?
You said:
Also, as stated I was a bit needy and wasn’t really getting any of my needs met.
When did you start feeling first that she wasn’t meeting your needs? And what where those needs exactly, i.e. in what way did her behavior towards you change?
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
You are very welcome. You say you didn’t show any frustration, however she probably sensed it. You say:
When her mom started living with us I was unhappy but I put up with it and didn’t really voice my feelings and she probably sensed that as well.
I am sure she sensed that you were displeased with the situation, because people who are in the care-taker role are very attuned to other people’s needs… so she felt it and probably felt guilty that she wasn’t giving you enough…
Actually she said one time that she thought I was jealous of her son. This is farthest from the truth but I guess she was being pulled in all different directions.
Perhaps you resented that e.g. her son gets to sleep in her bed, while you ended up on the couch? And she interpreted your resentment as jealousy? If I may ask – what were the sleeping arrangements before covid, when her children were staying one week at a time at your place? Did her son sleep in her bed then too, while you slept separately? Or it only started happening during covid?
Sleeping with her 10-year old son on a regular basis, and separately from you – her husband – does tell a lot about her. I think it tells about her guilt and, as you discussed with Helcat, about her inability to set boundaries with her children. She felt guilty for setting those boundaries, and she also probably felt guilty for not giving you what you expected from her. And so she found the solution in separation, which is very unfortunate for both of you. But you cannot do much about it, apart from working on your side of the problem.
And I’ve learned a lot about myself since the separation. I’ve learned that I have attachment trauma stemming from things in the past. I’ve learned that I’m an anxious pre occupied style of attachment. I’ve learned those things and understand now what could have been different.
It’s good that you are aware of your anxious attachment style. People with anxious attachment style (this was my attachment style too!) are attracted to motherly types i.e. care-takers, so it’s probably a part of the reason why you were so attracted to your wife. She was probably a dream-come-true for you, or rather, for the needy child in you. Because the child wants to feel safe and protected, it wants to feel cared for and nurtured, it wants to feel No1 to his care-taker…
I remember my needy child wanted to feel No1 for my then-boyfriend (now husband), and I was hurt if he had to attend to other people and if I wasn’t his center of attention at all times. I am not saying you are the same, but this is typical for anxious attachment.
If you want to grow out of this neediness, you would need to work on becoming the care-taker for your own inner child. Strengthening the adult part in you, who can become the care-taker for your wounded inner child. It’s called self-parenting or re-parenting. Best if you could do it in therapy, if that is available to you.
I would be glad to talk to you more about anxious attachment and how to heal it, or anything else you might be interested in.
TeeParticipantDear Dan,
I am truly sorry for what you are going through. I’ll try to give you my perspective of what is going on. I think your wife sees herself primarily as a care-taker (and is possibly a people-pleaser). She probably stretches herself to meet everyone’s needs. And she feels guilty if she doesn’t succeed in doing that. This is how she explained the separation to you:
things in life happened that made it very difficult for her to be the wife she says I deserve.
she couldn’t be there for me the way that she thinks she should.
It seems that she believes that she should give you more, but isn’t able to, because she needs to give her attention to her children (specially her son who believes you are stealing his mom from him), as well as her parents.
If you are somewhat needy, as you said, you might have felt frustrated about all these people requiring your wife’s attention, and you ending up sleeping on the couch. You might have expressed your frustration to your wife (or she might have sensed it), and she felt guilty that she cannot provide to you. With her son complaining about you, she might have felt that she had to choose between her children and you, and naturally, she chose her children.
I don’t know how much frustration you showed to her, i.e. how needy you behaved around her, but probably it played a role. But the biggest problem, as I see it, is that she feels guilty for not meeting her children’s (and everybody else’s) needs perfectly, and also for having a life of her own – outside of her role of the care-taker. I say this because she was meeting you in secret when no one was at home, probably because she felt guilty about her children finding out.
TeeParticipantDear Tricia,
I am sorry you were betrayed like that by your long-term boyfriend. You say you don’t understand why it happened and he won’t talk to you. What I find curious is that he (supposedly) booked a trip with his friends for his birthday to travel to Spain, and you weren’t disturbed by it. I mean, if my boyfriend would rather travel abroad with his friends for his birthday than with me, this would disturb me and would make me question how much he actually cares about me. For you, it wasn’t a big deal. (That was no big deal at all. I just adjusted my trip to see him when he got back.)
Perhaps you didn’t ask much from him because you didn’t value yourself enough? You said he was kind and loving up until May, but maybe you didn’t really see his selfishness or lack of care for you because it was normal for you to always adapt to him and not ask much for yourself?
This is just a theory, I am not claiming I know what happened between the two of you. But you say you want to understand, and for that, I think it would make sense to dig a little deeper and take a look at the dynamic between the two. Because it might turn out that he wasn’t as kind and loving as you thought him to be? I think that understanding what happened could also help you face him (and stay strong) when you meet him next month.
September 14, 2022 at 12:27 pm in reply to: How to let go of the fear of being disliked (at work) #406960
TeeParticipantDear Dee,
Despite having some deep childhood wounds which I am aware of, I know I have a lot of people who love and care about me.
That’s wonderful!
However, it seems to me that there was a particular person (or more of them?) who didn’t love you and didn’t care enough for you in your childhood? More specifically, they didn’t want to get to know you. I say this because you mentioned several times the pain of your work colleagues not putting an effort to get to know you:
They barely ask me anything personal like how was my weekend or birthday and I feel like no one has put in effort to really get to know me or care.
I want to feel connected in a team and know I’m part of a work family.
And then I blame myself for being upset that they don’t like me because I’m not showing them who I really am.
How I do let go of all this fear and constant craving of external validation? Especially from co-workers who don’t truly know me?
My guess is that you are re-experiencing the pain of rejection, or perceived rejection, by a particular person or persons in your childhood. You would like to be liked and accepted by your work colleagues and be a part of a work family. But your colleagues don’t seem to accept you into their family… in your eyes, they don’t even want to get to know you. As a result, you feel rejected and you freeze (I am extremely reserved at work and almost get social anxiety), not being able to act spontaneously and “not showing them who I really am“.
Does this sound plausible to you?
TeeParticipantDear Neera,
You are very welcome, I am glad it helped you.
I did see my mom as a victim growing up. And the more I learned about domestic violence in school, the more I wanted to free her, but I did not know how. So I tried to be the partner for her that she needed, trying to be perfect and eventually it did wear me out.
If there was violence in your family and your father was hurting your mother, your mother was indeed a victim. But the question is whether she needed to stay victim or she could have done something to help herself.
You say that you learned about domestic violence at school, and tried to help her and free her. What kind of advice did you give her? Did you tell her to talk to someone and seek help, or to even divorce your father?
I am asking because it could be that she had options to help herself, but she chose to stay in a dysfunctional marriage, and made you and your sister collateral victims of sorts, exposing you to domestic violence and horrible fights between her and your father?
It’s no wonder that you did everything to please her and not to upset her, because you didn’t want to add to her burden of being the victim. It seems to me that you were there to meet her needs, instead of vice versa. When the time came for you to go to university, she emotionally manipulated you – again, using her “victimhood” – to stay by her side. This tells me that she mostly cared about herself and her needs, not about you.
You said that your parents’ fights have subsided since then, and that your father is actually on your mother’s side when the two of you have an argument:
The fights are now much less between the two of them but now it has gravitated towards my mom and I have major disagreements and arguments.
my dad is always on my moms side
How did this change in the dynamic between your parents come about? Is it maybe because your father is now weaker and perhaps sickly, and he depends on your mother to care for him? So he isn’t so aggressive any more, but became more tame?
In any case, it seems that your mother still sees herself as the victim, but now mostly your victim, not of your father’s? She doesn’t want to accept any responsibility for any wrong-doings, and this is a typical attitude of a person stuck in the victim mentality. My mother is also like that – she would never in a million years admit that she did anything wrong in the way she raised me. Ever. She has always been and always will be the victim. Full stop.
Instead of facing herself and acknowledging her shortcomings, it’s easier for your mother to shift the blame on you (or your father, in the past). Unfortunately I know this mindset very well… and yes, unfortunately this also means that honest conversation with your mother won’t be possible. Because she wants to remain the victim and she wants to keep blaming others.
My mother has gone through a lot in her marriage and even in childhood. And this is something I do greatly empathize with her on.
I also have empathy for my mother, since she was treated poorly as a child (her mother was even stricter and more judgmental than my mother was with me). However, at the end of the day, she is an adult and has the option to heal those wounds and not perpetuate the generational trauma. But she chooses not to. I can see that everything she does is a result of her childhood wounds, nevertheless those wounds (that she refuses to address) stand in the way of us having a close, heartfelt relationship.
I know it’s hard for you because I am sure you want to be close to your mother, like I wanted to be close to mine. But it’s not possible…. It took me many years to finally see that, and to accept it. Nowadays I love my mother from afar, and the less we talk, the better it is. Because she would start accusing me and blaming me at the first chance she has. So I keep my distance to protect myself. Our relationship is very superficial and we don’t see each other often, since I live in another country. But that’s how it has to be, and I accepted it.
On a positive note, it’s great that you have a very loving relationship with your partner. You seem to be able to talk openly and honestly about everything (unlike with your mother!), he is supportive and has lots of understanding for you. That’s very important!
I am realizing that as unfortunate as it is, for me to have a healthy relationship with my mom, the conversations must be minimal, and my responses must also be minimal. I cannot express myself or explain myself because there is no point.
Yes, that’s exactly the same experience that I had, and the same conclusion I’ve come to…
I suppose the best way for me to heal is therapy because the more I try for her to see what she did was wrong, and how what she is doing now is still wrong, the more strain it puts in our relationship. … I need to find a way to vent out my anger that is away from my childhood environment, and hopefully that can bring me to peace with reality.
Yes, I think therapy would be very helpful. Besides processing anger at your mother, I think it’s also important that you give love and compassion to yourself, to tell yourself (and your inner child) that you are lovable and precious and that you aren’t to blame for your mother’s unhappiness. Shower yourself with love, compassion and validation – to compensate for what you haven’t received as a child!
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