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Being better at accepting depression

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  • #294897
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    Your depression is nothing new. It started long ago in the context of living with your parents. It was established then and it is a chemical habit of the brain, at this point. So is your anger at your mother projected into women, this is also a chemical habit of the brain.

    These chemical habits of the brain involve thoughts and emotions and these bring about your ongoing emotional experience, depression, anger underneath it, and there is fear, of course, and sometimes hope and a bit of joy and some comfort, moments of refuge, maybe days. Then back to the brain’s chemical business as usual.

    One way to go about it is chemical intervention, SSRIs for one, maybe anti psychotics in small doses to be used as mood stabilizers. I don’t know if we talked about psych drugs? These can help in causing you to feel way better long enough to seek better therapy  for yourself, long enough to maybe connect better with women and have healthier experiences, new experiences that will .. make you believe that these new experiences are possible for you.

    Regarding your contact with your parents, the contact in which your current and lifetime so far emotional experience was established (my first two paragraphs here), within a week you wrote the following: “I’m seriously considering not talking to my parents at all for good… I’ve hesitated to cut ties with my parents mainly because I needed help through grad school… It’s so hard for me to cut ties with my mom because I need my sister so much and it’s a package deal when I go visit because they live together”-

    – well, this is also business as usual, you keep going back to the place where your misery was established and to the contacts that still fuel this misery if not in action (your mother’s very recent behavior) then by the many reminders that activate your memory of past experiences there.

    You keep going back to mom (and dad). You didn’t leave home yet.

    A new emotional life experience for you is possible once you leave home and then do what is needed, be it a chemical intervention for a while and definitely the quality psychotherapy you didn’t receive yet!

    (You can see your sister outside the home she shares with your mother. You are using her as an excuse to keep seeing mom to whom you are still very much attached).

    anita

    #297237
    noname
    Participant

    Thank you for you’re reply

    i had typed a long response but it did not post. In short I have read enough research on mental illness,  gene expression, and neurotransmitters to determine that i absolutely have a reuptake issue with either the both norepinephrine or serotonin. The reason I have avoided ssri’s is mainly because I saw firsthand the effects that they had on my mother growing up, and the few times I have tried them the side effects were too much for me, lastly I’m not doing everything I possibly can to fight depression. For example I’m drinking too much, smoking too much weed, not exercising regularly, not meditating, not eating well, etc.

    Having been well for a period of about 4-6months at one point a few years ago when I was doing everything in my power to get well is the evidence I use against medication for myself. I do agree that medication should be used as a tool when someone’s life prevents them from controlling the controllables. I have no excuse except fear.

    Yesterday I had a bad episode. The backstory is I met a woman last weekend at a bar we talked for hours and we had sex that night and the next night. We even went out on a lunch date this past week. However I wasn’t able to see her this weekend because she was working and busy. Feeling let down my mind always tells me if I were a more worthy person than she would’ve figured out a way to see me. Completely irrational. But, this is the thought process I have when I can’t get my needs met, and I clearly have attachment issues that feed into this thinking. I get addicted to women very quickly I try to keep it in check but of course having sex early on always confuses things and keeps the “relationship” going. So instead of just being patient and saying to myself oh well guess I’ll see her later when she has time I tell her it’s not going to work out, then I go back and forth playing games in what I think is my attempt at getting someone to chase me so that I feel needed/worthy.

    I ended up being drunk all weekend and yesterday morning had a drunken breakdown and Texted my two friends and had them come over and take all my alcohol and watch me finish off all the rest of the weed I had. It was the first time I’ve asked for help in what seems like a couple years. I don’t know why I try to convince myself that no one cares about me and that I’m worthless. This thinking keeps me from asking for help, and keeps me guarded, keeps me safe in my lonely fortress.

    I feel I am at a crossroads in my life. I’m providing therapy for people while feeling worthless at the same time, it’s difficult for me to sell a product When i don’t believe in it. I can either try harder and toughen up and go through the pain of experiencing all of my difficult emotions, or continue on the path I’m on which is leading me back to the darkness. I feel I have nothing to look forward to in life. I don’t feel worthy of being needed or loved by anyone, and on top of it all I don’t know where to start looking for answers to help me find my value.

    #297243
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    “I met a woman last weekend at a bar we talked for hours and we had sex that night and the next night.. went out on a lunch date this past week. However I wasn’t able to see her this weekend because she was working and busy. Feeling let down…  I tell her it’s not going to work out, then I go back and forth playing games. I ended up being drunk all weekend”-

    – that which you need so desperately, which you stated repeatedly that you need, a woman’s touch, sex, that experience of love with a woman (however short and limited that love, being you just met her), you had it last weekend, that one night and the next night.

    Problem is this experience of love is associated with great distress. In your neuropathways, the experience of love and the experience of great distress are associated. You can’t have one without the other-

    -unless you heal from and resolve the childhood experiences (which I assume did not involve sex but love otherwise) that created this association.

    anita

     

    #297285
    noname
    Participant

    Thank you for your reply,

    At times everything feels hopeless. I don’t exactly  know how to let go of this pain. Getting close to people and being vulnerable feels so scary to me. I always tell myself I’ll do better next time I enter into any kind of relationship with people, I’m yet to do better. The feeling of separation anxiety from a person I’ve attached to even if i just met them is familiar and overwhelming. The same feeling I used to have as a child most of my waking hours.

    Im not sure what exactly I should be working towards with healing from that pain of unavailable caregivers as a child. While I’m fully aware of it, fully aware when I’m acting irrational towards someone (especially in romance), fully aware of the familiarity of the pain, I still can’t quite change the immature childish way I seek help and connection through getting close to someone and then trying to run away.

    You have been sending me the same message for quite some time now when I post here. I’m just unsure how exactly to start healing from my childhood, Most of the work I’ve done has been merely becoming aware of my past presenting itself in the present. Awareness is the first step, but I feel stuck there. Besides not reactivating that pain by talking to my parents, I’m lost how else to heal at this point. If I were a client of mine I would encourage the person to find community where their fears and vulnerabilities can be held and witnessed in safety, without judgment and with care. I don’t know if there’s any more you can tell me that you haven’t already on this topic. It’s obvious to me I’m longing for a person or people who I can feel safe sharing my wounds with, maybe that is the way to heal on a level that I haven’t in the past, through experience.

    #297295
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    I wasn’t thinking that I was repeating myself in my last post to you because I did think from that “beginner’s mind” when I posted to you last. It being an unintended repetition means it is true, what I wrote, and you acknowledge it.

    I just looked at your very first thread, March 2017, you were just about to turn 25 at the time, going to graduate school. The first thing you ever wrote about your experience growing up with your parents was this: “Growing up my mom was very depressed and my dad had anger issues, one of my strongest memories from childhood was my dad telling me and my sister it was ‘our job to keep our mother happy’ that’s a lot for an 8 year old to take on… trying to keep my mom happy and my dad calm was a very exhausting task”.

    I suppose when you get involved with a woman, like the recent woman, two nights and a day meetup, you feel that exhaustion right away, that anger that you don’t want to do that job again, have that role of making her happy and keeping… yourself calm.

    Did we talk about this job or role in the context of you beginning and then quickly ending relationships with women?

    anita

    #297313
    noname
    Participant

    We haven’t discussed that role to my knowledge. Since breaking up with my first girlfriend 4 years ago now I have gradually become more distant whenever I meet women. the length of time of the relationships i’ve been involved since my first girlfriend have steadily declined from 5-6months, 3 months, 1 month, 3 weeks, 1 week, and a couple one-nighters. My thoughts on this is I have lost hope and either don’t give people a chance or feel that a relationship is hopeless so I put no effort into the women I’ve met after we’ve had sex. I also don’t trust any of the women i’ve met since my first girlfriend, even if they have given me no reason not to trust them I know how desperate people are for love and feel that women will cheat and lie to get what they want from me or whoever. To make matters worse because i know pain so well, i see pain clearly in others and it scares me, i ask myself if this person is hurting so much how can i trust them to be there for me and be honest.

    When I meet a woman they typically are impressed with my work ethic, talents, vulnerability (to an extent), and independence. They see me as some sort of savior, as the perfect man they’ve been looking for. I of course do not see myself for my best qualities and this scares me when others see me better than i see myself because i feel i will inevitably let them down and fail them somehow. This is when all my insecurities surface and I regress back to my childish games. I’ll either cut things off quickly to try to avoid the pain of becoming attached again and being let down later, or i will sabotage it somehow by telling them how awful of a person i am because i have so many issues.

    Here’s where things get interesting. Every woman i’ve been with has told me i was either the best sex they ever had or right up there. I’ve learned why, its not because i’m some kind of supermodel man or something but its because i am selfless and %100 of my focus is on them, I rarely finish during sex but make sure they finish every time. I put all my emotional energy into it, and make sure the other person feels safe and fully accepted by me. This is a very crude way of trying to get that same attention reciprocated which doesn’t happen the way i want it to. My favorite part of sex is pillow talk, and cuddling. It’s the moments where i feel close to someone sex is just my means of getting there. It works to an extent, the problem is that care and attention doesn’t often get reciprocated back and i might as well be their therapist too, because the focus of the care is exclusively on them.

    What got me excited about this last woman is that she quickly noticed my flaws and vulnerabilities that most women don’t. Shes also a little bit older than me (33) which i like because she’s more mature, but shes very busy taking care of kids and doesnt really have too much time for me. My thought is always “if i can take care of this person maybe they wont leave this time” sound familiar

    #297317
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    “I am selfless and 100% of my focus is on them… I.. make sure the other person feels safe and fully accepted by me… My favorite part of sex is pillow talk, and cuddling. It’s the moments where I feel close to someone sex is just my means of getting there. It works to an extent, the problem is that care and attention doesn’t often get reciprocated back and I might as well be their therapist too”-

    – this to me is a very valuable input, very revealing. Your job as a child was to make your mother happy and the hope was that she will love you back. You invested and invested and the return on your investment- very little affection if any, too little, too far in between.

    Fast forward, your job with women- to make them happy, so you invest in them sexually, give and give selflessly, hoping to get  back some non-sexual love aka affection in return. You get some, but not enough. Again, your return on investment is very poor.

    It is exhausting to invest and invest for little to no return, and frustrating as well, of course, enraging at times, isn’t it?

    anita

     

    #297331
    noname
    Participant

    Anger is always my knee jerk emotional reaction when a women or even friend makes themselves unavailable to me. I then ask myself why am i angry? especially if the reason they are unavailable is legitimate. The anger is definitely a relived childhood experience with my mother, not available when i need her leading me to believe there was something wrong with me. If im thinking healthy ill say something to myself like “you’re upset because you’re not getting what you want immediately, but that doesn’t mean they don’t care or don’t want to see you” when i’m not in a healthy place my thinking goes like this “see i knew you were worthless, no one needs or wants you, nothing you can ever do will be good enough”

    I think i’ve landed on my self-worth as the core issue I have to solve. Historically i have been motivated by feeling worthless, it’s what makes me keep my body in shape so that im worthy of being attractive, its what makes me want to take care of people, its what drove me to achieve everything in life thus far. Sometimes im amazed at the physical, mental, and career accomplishments i’ve made all why secretly hating myself every step of the way. I do well at pretending i love myself, few people have seen through the facade of accomplishment.

    #297343
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    No amount of accomplishment, including world-wide fame some celebrities have accomplished, wealth and fame, many millions of people … celebrating them. But if one feels unworthy, nothing matters.

    I do remember writing the following to you before, not in these words exactly, but the principle of it-

    – as a child, you perceived your mother as worthy, all children do. For a child, a parent is god, all-knowing, all capable, all-loving,  so if something goes wrong, for the child, it is not because the parent is lacking, god cannot be lacking… it must be the child.

    Fast forward, you, noname still see your mother (deep inside, underneath all the academic learning) as god like (yes, again, underneath.. as in a core belief formed too early). As long as you see her this way, you will continue to see yourself as inadequate, worthless and unlovable. The solution is in changing that early-life mental unit of child-mother, sort of wiggling yourself out of that tight fit there, with your mother, seeing her as she is and you, as you are.

    anita

    #297525
    noname
    Participant

    I agree i absolutely need to change this incorrect belief about myself that I am worthless, the question is how?

    I went to see my therapist today. We talked about a lot of important topics, the most important was this topic of self worth. He showed me a picture of his daughter and told me she and the rest of the children in the world need my gifts. I responded that even if i know cognitively people need me that i don’t feel it. To that he responded with a concept from Carl Jung about living “as if”. He told me to live as if i believed it to be true. After he told me that i began to cry, it really hit me in that moment how much I’ve lost hope for myself to be anything other than worthless, how hard I’ve tried to prove it to others all the while not proving it to myself. I’m not even sure what it means for me to live as if i’m worthy it feels so foreign to my thoughts and my heart.

    I know the weed and liquor has kept me from dealing with this issue. I smoke weed not because i enjoy the euphoria so much, rather Its because of want i don’t want. I don’t want to be fully aware of all my sorrows and pain. I don’t have dreams when i smoke which i like because i get to ignore my subconscious. For example the dream i had last night was so amazing that when i woke up i immediately felt sad. The themes of the dream were belonging, intimacy, and fun. The things i know i deeply desire but try to ignore out of lack of the skills to get those needs filled.

    This is where im at right now, no longer trying to escape my unmet needs, instead im going to pay attention to them, i just dont know how to hold and care for them. How does one care for the need of belonging, sex, and validation alone? i dont think i can do it on my own. I’ve hit my limit of being a loner.

    #297539
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    For a child, the parent is the mirror to the self. If the child sees and hear the parent treating him as worthless, he believes he is worthless. The child automatically sees the parent as most worthy, a god, so the parent’s .. opinion is fact, valid and undisputable.

    Now that you are an adult, you understand this somewhat, but.. as long as you see your parent as most worthy in your heart, you will still see yourself as unworthy.

    I referred repeatedly to the mental unit of young child- parent. This is where your brain was formed. You have to change the way you feel about your parent’s worth to you before you can change the way you feel about your own worth. One can not happen without the other.

    I wrote this before and I have the feeling that you will dismiss it yet again. And yet, I am here to repeat what I believe to be true, whenever I have the opportunity, and this is one.

    anita

    #297613
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    “I agree I absolutely need to change this incorrect belief about myself that I am worthless, the question is how?”-

    – did you ever, in the context of psychotherapy, talk about how you looked up to your mother, and/or to your father as the most important people in the world to you; how you loved them, trusted them, how they were all that mattered to you; did you talk about that softness in your heart for them?

    If you did, what kinds of things you said, if you can repeat here in a few sentences, a paragraph?

    anita

     

    #298305
    noname
    Participant

    I have explored this topic of the importance of my parents to me as a child and how harmful the beliefs i held became. We explored the shame and guilt i felt from never being “good enough” for either one of them. I have explored this topic thoroughly in therapy, and ultimately the exploration of this topic is what led me out of my deepest depression. I’m not sure what else needs to happen in regards to this topic, and ill admit sometimes the suggestions you have made seem a bit to abstract for me to grasp on an emotional level, it’s not that i’m purposely dismissing your input, its just hard to put into mental practice especially when so much of it is deeply ingrained and unconscious. I am trying. I tend to be a concrete and overly rational thinker (like many people in the western world) which makes emotional/spiritual work difficult for me to grasp at times.

    Outside of not having contact with my parents, which im obviously not putting the most effort into mainly for financial reasons at this point. (my mom is giving me divorce money, which i desperately need at this time while im building my caseload. I still use my dad’s garage which i put countless hours into help building years ago) I don’t feel guilty for using them for their resources anymore because in alot of ways i feel entitled to it, not to mention they were taking thousands in tax credits while i was in undergrad without telling me while acting like they were broke and i was working part time jobs to make ends meet. I have very little sympathy for them and don’t hesitate to call them out on their bullshit anymore.

    Bottom line for me is that my self-worth and confidence feels like a more pressing issue to me at this time than worrying about my parents. I do however understand that my self-worth issues stem from my parents, and that i am consciously aware of. No im not perfect. Yes i kept my mom from doing something stupid on mothers day, which i should’ve just stayed out of. I regret it.

    There are other factors contributing to my self-worth issues, alot of it has to do with this fucked up society we live in and being a black male within it. I work in the most affluent part of town where i find myself frequently the only black person in a variety of settings, white people look at me crazy every fucking day, like they are terrified, confused, and curious all at the same time. It’s a very alienating experience being me, and i have to be strong not to let it affect my self-worth on a daily basis.

    I did alot of digging last week to remind myself of my worth in this life. It is difficult Anita please be patient with me as i try to understand the concrete steps i need to take towards healing

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 6 months ago by noname.
    #298321
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear noname:

    People look at you “like they are terrified, confuse, and curious all at the same time”- I don’t remember if you mentioned the exact state where you live, North Carolina perhaps, somewhere close to the deep south.. The only place in the South where I once lived was New Orleans, pre-Catrina, a long time ago, but I don’t think it is a representative of the South. Coming to think about it, away from the French Quarters, away from the city itself, there was a strange feel to  it. I remember black people/ African Americans on the outskirts of New Orleans, there was a cold, detached, suspicious air about how they looked at some white people, it stuck in my memory, definitely not the integrated feel of New York City or Los Angeles or Seattle or smaller liberal cities on the Pacific Coast.

    I am very familiar though with the prejudice against darker color skin and non European looks. I think that my mother, darker skin, North Africa, married my father, Eastern European, just so to .. have upgraded children, with a light skin and European features. I don’t think it worked very well.

    Regarding my suggestions being abstract for you, I think I understand. If you want we can do an exercise aimed at making the abstract more concrete. I thought about it last time I posted to you. I don’t know exactly what that exercise will be, but I will try if you are willing to experiment with me, it will be a wing-it attempt. Let me know.

    anita

    #298347
    noname
    Participant

    Anita

    I am absolutely willing to try whatever you throw my way! I have the utmost respect for you and your opinions given how many people you’ve helped on this site from a distance, and your responsiveness. I often find myself genuinely concerned for your well being, a person I’ve never met in the flesh, yet comes across so warm, loving, and brutally honest, seemingly never burnt out on helping either. I aspire to be a person with those qualities one day.

    in regards to my location I don’t want to say in this thread since I have discussed so many private matters in this thread and it would be easy to identify me off my first name and race. But let’s say I’m in the Midwest. Not quite the culture of the Deep South, yet still quite segrated by income and race where I live. I would be happy to private message you.

    i Don’t complain about racism too much though I feel it daily, especially when I leave my city and come back. When I go to New York City I don’t think about my race as much as people are more used to anomalies like myself. When visiting Dominican Republic a few years ago I literally forgot I was black until the returning flight home back to this hell hole of hatred I call amerikkka. Even some other professionals in my field treat complaints of racial discrimination as some sort of cognitive distortion, when it is a reality for many of us. I try to live my life in a way where people can see just because I am black have tattoos all over my forearms, wear my hats backwards sometimes that I am not what they think I am. It is exhausting, but has allowed me to see the truth of the society I live in for all the suffering people of the non-majority go through, and I’ll be a better therapist because of it.

    …back to the matter at hand, really what I am seeking here and in my therapy is how to get out of my own way and get my need for love & belonging met. Feeling worthless does not send out the most positive attractive energy to others and I have doubt has become a self fulfilling prophecy for me. Why would I be motivated to ask for love if I feel I truly don’t deserve it? I’m working on this distorted belief and have made tons of progress but still have a ways to go.

    When I go to coffee shops or bars I want to feel as if I could start a conversation with someone because I have gifts for them, instead I tell myself out of habit “they don’t want to talk to you, they’re probably afraid of you, what do you have to offer them anyway?” The times when I’ve silenced this inner critic and had the courage to call myself to action have always rewarded me. Part of the negative voice is my parents in me, part of it is societal fear of brown skin, part of it is my own scared inner child running the show. I forget to take care of him and comfort him, writing this now is a reminder I too have been neglecting him the way others have.

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