- This topic has 245 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 11 months ago by Anonymous.
November 15, 2022 at 1:11 pm #410166AnonymousGuest
I am glad to receive your post and I read it. I know that I need to re-read it Wed morning and reply then (in about 17 hours from now) because although it is only 1:11 pm here, I am very tired (I was up at 4:30 am..!!! I wish I could take a nap… I’ll try). Be back to you in the morning!
anitaNovember 15, 2022 at 1:30 pm #410168
ok have a good nap then FarnazNovember 15, 2022 at 1:35 pm #410170AnonymousGuest
Thank you, Farnaz: I’ll TRY to nap, don’t have a success record in this regard…!
anitaNovember 16, 2022 at 8:12 am #410184AnonymousGuest
“I’m so happy finding someone… who can exactly feel and understand what I’m being through“- in regard to BPD and trust issues, I need to say: when you find out that I don’t exactly understand what you are going through, and/ or when I disappoint you otherwise (maybe I already did), don’t go to the extreme of being very unhappy with me and figuring that I don’t understand you at all, or worse, that I deceived you or tried to manipulate you. If and when you feel disappointed and angry at me, please let me know what it is about and we can talk about it.
“I’m so sorry about your experience with so called friend, I feel like maybe your mom was jealous of you, and she felt you having a friend diminished her control over you… my mom was also jealous oof my friend“- thank you. What you wrote here sounds right.
“My mom had some trauma in her past too…“- you shared that your mother’s grandparents were divorced, that your grandmother was separated from her mother due to divorce… and was under control of a stepmother, that your grandfather was twice the age of your grandmother, that your grandmother tried to separate your mother from your uncles and felt that one of your uncles (your mother’s brother) was using your mother. Your mother ended contact with the brother who used her, and she lost another brother to suicide.
“My traumas were my mom, her death and dealing with my dad who wasn’t trust worthy” – you identified your trauma clearly.
“I hope he (your brother) gets pushed to therapy by something, I know that’s weird“- I don’t think it’s weird. Many, if not most people are pushed to therapy by something that creates more pain and more conflict than they can handle keeping their habitual ways of thinking and behaving.
“My sister also was like mom, except she didn’t have any of mom’s good qualities, you know, I don’t think my mom was bad in nature, but my sister definitely is…. I’m just indifferent, but once I loved her with all my heart… more than I loved my mom, until I got older and saw her for who she was. I’m 13 years younger than her. I can say, getting to know her as an adult didn’t help my trust issues at all“- I wonder (1) what you loved about your sister so much growing up, and (2) what she said and did that caused you to so drastically change your mind and heart about her (?) We can explore this, if you wish.
“I unfortunately encounter a lot of power hungry people in my life… I’ve seen some very manipulating people who persistently tried to mislead me in some way… it’s not personal, they do it to everyone, but I believe I was sending some signals, obviously unconsciously, that I’m an easy target…. predator. I can tell you one example, I have an aunt… who seems to be very compassionate, she was actually crying in front of me when my father was getting remarried, and said that she can’t see anyone in my mom’s place… after my dad married, I realized that my aunt actually tried to fix my dad with some lady who was in a very low level… in different planet, culture wise, economic class, religion. It was almost comic, how my aunt would think that was a good match for my dad. Anyway, she was lying to my face and actually crying about it!!! And the other time, she tried to fix me with her nephew who was not really a sharp person, very slow, not from a good family either.. till recent years, I realized she did these kinds of behaviors on purpose, from encouraging me to basically abandon any good and meaningful thing in my life… persistently tell me I’m worthless because I’m not married, and she was very upset that I didn’t become a broken person after my mom’s death. Well, I did become that, but I somehow put myself together… I cut ties with her after my dad’s funeral because of her behavior after it. She was almost happy and tried to draw attention to herself, instead of to my father’s death. I couldn’t tolerate it anymore”-
– reading this and then re-reading it, my impression about this aunt (it is only an impression) is that she is not a sharp person and that her words and actions are not part of a well thought-of plan, or an evil plan, to deceive and manipulate you. It seems to me that her words and behaviors are such that are very common in some cultures: showy behaviors in the context of death and funerals (pretentious and insincere indeed, yet … accepted and expected within the culture), culturally accepted ideas regarding mourning, older single women and marriage and match making efforts. Seems like she wasn’t sharp enough to make … sharp match-making suggestions, that in her eyes, those were good matches. But again… my impression is that she was not smart enough or educated enough to carry on a cold-hearted, intelligent plan to deceive and overpower you. What do you think?
anitaNovember 16, 2022 at 12:57 pm #410192
t disappointed me in understanding my situations, i hope i didnt neither . but if that happens we can discuss it obviously .
about my sister , that didn
t happened in one night , i mean the change of heart . well at the beginning i was much younger and impressionable and i loved her with my whole heart , she was and still is living in another country , so i believe the distance made her more likable and she gave me a lot of souvenir when she came home but i was a teenager i realized she saw me as a inferior person not because i was much younger but she was acting like i was stupid specially in front her friends , gradually i realized she was antisocial and definitely anti family , she always wanted to bring all of us down by her behavior , she chose a guy whom she knew would never accept him just to somehow damaging my parents pride and now that i looked back she was just using him for antagonizing her family , remember in that time i believed my parents are perfect . anyway my parents approaches towards her and what they said to her and about her kind of changed my mind about her but the last straw was when my mom died , she couldnt care less about it , she was basically enjoying the freedom after her death , even before that , although she knew my mom was in critical condition she didn
t call home , till one week after her death i called her and told her where the hell she was ?she came home almost 4 weeks after and her attitude was as i said careless and cold , she didnt even once asked anything from me who was supposedly her beloved sister about how i feel and how i handled it , i know her relationship with my mom was complicated but SHE WAS DEAD and that didn
t make our pain any easier , you cant just brush if off and say never mind she wasn
t a good mom actually i feel not having a good relationship with a deceased parent makes the grief harder .she hurt me by leaving me alone and going out with her friends , she was talking about my dad should remarry very soon , in general very hurtful behavior and she told my father i wouldn't support her (me)in anyway at all , because my dad was hoping to send me to place my sisters was living for studying i believe she was thinking after my mom , i would be dependent on her and she was depriving me of what i expected on purpose , like a ego boost for her . alot of stuff happened between my dad and her after while (not related to me ) but their relationship was also severed completely , i only can say i am lucky that she doesn
t live near me . im curious about relationship with your sister ?hopefully it`s not toxic , we can talk about it if you like .
regarding my aunt , i agree with you , she is not very sharp in making wise decisions , i mean in her own life and her family . the pretention and being showy whether it was about parenting to me nice or being wealthy was always her biggest goal . i believe she was actively wanted to drag me down , not by herself but with help of her children , i
m not sure her match making decision was planned and malicious , but she was very persistent with putting me down verbally , thats why i believe some animosity is present . not just toward me but my whole family , but they weren
t smart enough to conceal themselves as good people , maybe its helpful for other people to see through them . but it`s hurtful, they always use very direct and sharp words and they seem to be proud of it , they are bullies , SIMPLE. what do you think about having no contact with them ?
i hope you had a good sleep and good day
farnazNovember 16, 2022 at 1:06 pm #410193AnonymousGuest
I am just about to go out for the rest of the day, I’ll be back to you this evening or Thurs morning. (It is now Wed 1:06 pm here).
anitaNovember 16, 2022 at 2:08 pm #410195
Actually it is 1:36 am Thursday right now so we have exactly 12 hours time difference , hope to here from u soon
farnazNovember 17, 2022 at 7:51 am #410203AnonymousGuest
It (will be) Thursday 7:50 pm then where you are at, when I submit this post. I hope that you had a good day. First, the easy part of your recent post, regarding your aunt and her adult children: “what do you think about having no contact with them?“- I am all for having no contact with bullies who are motivated by malice (“malicious… they are bullies, SIMPLE“).
Regarding your sister, this is my current understanding: she really hates your mother and has hated her for a long, long time. Her chronic hate for her mother, in its origin and throughout her childhood- was valid, and none of your sister’s fault. Same as my chronic anger at my mother (it felt like hate for a long, long time): in its origin and throughout my childhood- it was valid and none of my fault. I will not fault any child who feels hate for his/ her mother (primary caretaker) because I don’t believe children are born hateful. They are born extremely dependent on the mother and therefore, extremely loving. It takes a WHOLE LOT for a very loving child to become chronically hateful of a mother.
I do not fault your sister for continuing to feel hate for her mother for many years as an adult because I assume that your mother did not acknowledge any faults in her own behaviors toward your sister (and instead, continued to find fault in your sister), did not arrange for family therapy with your sister where the very troubled relationship between mother and (adult) child was discussed and resolved… so no reason for your sister to feel differently about her mother. Your sister could have (and may have) attended individual therapy that could have lessened her anger. But from personal experience, my chronic anger at my mother lessened sometime after therapy and after ending all contact with her.
Throughout all the years that I lived in a country far, far away from my mother’s (continents, a sea and an ocean apart), every single time that I visited her led to my anger reigniting and I suffered so much mental torture during and following each visit. It seems like although your sister lived in a different country as well, she too visited her mother, and like me, she probably had some phone contact with her mother as well.
You wrote yesterday about your sister: “She always wanted to bring all of us down by her behavior“- you still, currently, think of yourself as ONE with your (now deceased) mother and father… and your sister on the opposite side, as in us vs her…?”
“I am curious about your relationship with your sister? Hopefully, it’s not toxic“- we have very little contact and it is not toxic. She respects my decision to have no contact with my mother (ever since May 2013). Growing up, we were very different: she was social, had lots of friends and I thought she was okay, normal. Unfortunately, I later found out that she was deeply wounded and harmed by my mother… and she still is.
This is not an easy topic to talk about, is it?
anitaNovember 17, 2022 at 11:14 am #410208
thank you i had a very busy day , packing . i`m not a fan , i hope you had a good day too .
yes my sister hates my mom so deeply that she is willing to ruin her life just to take revenge from her , i should use it in past tense but the first part is currently true , although i can understand her to some degree , i can
t understand her reactions completely . im still judging her because i can
t be partial , i wouldnt react to my mom
s abuse in that way but i wasnt in her place , she suffered much more as the oldest child , she was never accepted as she was and maybe me idolizing her , hurt her more than she was showing .
about my sister in us vs her…?”as you said it is not an easy topic to talk about .i don
t believe i would see her an enemy against all of us , if she wasnt so cruel towards everyone in her family , my dad actually helped her to study abroad because he knew the fight between her and my mom wouldn
t stop and she wanted to diffuse the situation (maybe that made her feel abandoned) i dont know , she betrayed his trust too , she was hostile towards me , i was 12 years old when fights between her and my parents was the worst . she was jealous of me maybe because i don`t have that difficult of relationship with my mom , because everything was changed when we knew she was gonna die from cancer , my mom was too sick to torture me as bad as she did my sister , i know that sounds awful .
my sister was always the black sheep of the family even after my mom
s death , my father also showed her , he didnt trust her. AND SHE IS NOT
i actually once told my mom directly that i wouldn
t let her to bring me down like my sister . i dont remember the context , but she was shocked to hear that . she was actually speechless but then she brushed it off .
regarding your sister if that works for you , congratulations . your sister being different from you and handling the damage differently helps me to make my point , you reacted differently to the abuse you both endured just as me and my siblings .
i hope we can continue the discussion or maybe change it to a lighter topic ?
farnazNovember 17, 2022 at 11:20 am #410210AnonymousGuest
It was earlier today (and not before) that I found out that your screen name means glorious beauty in old Persian! will read and reply in hours from now.
anitaNovember 17, 2022 at 12:16 pm #410214
not to be braggy , i`m a glorious beauty from Persia , LOL
i`m looking forward your reply , have a good day
FarnazNovember 17, 2022 at 7:04 pm #410216AnonymousGuest
Dear Glorious Beauty from Persia: I’ll be back to you Fri morning!
anitaNovember 18, 2022 at 3:14 am #410222
lol , thank you very much you graceful and merciful .
farnazNovember 18, 2022 at 10:36 am #410229AnonymousGuest
Dear Farnaz (Glorious Beauty from Persia):
You are welcome and thank you for referring to me as graceful and merciful. I hope that you soon finish your packing and have a smooth move to your new home. We both agree that this is not a light topic, but talking about and resolving heavy topics makes one lighter (and we can talk about something light next, if you wish).
“Your sister being different from you and handling the damage differently helps me to make my point, you reacted differently to the abuse you both endured just as me and my siblings“- there is a point that I need to make: my sister, who is six years younger than me, was born to the same mother but she was not born into the same situation that I was born into, and she did not grow up in the same situation. Therefore, she and I had the same mother but different childhoods. This is true to you as well, being that you are 13 years younger than your sister: the two of you were born to the same mother but had different childhoods.
My sister and I did not react differently to the same childhood. We reacted differently to.. different childhoods. It is not that my sister and I had the same childhood and we reacted to it differently: one born a good girl, reacting positively; the other born a bad girl, reacting negatively. We reacted differently to different childhoods.
I experienced some of my parents’ violent marriage and divorce when I was 5-6 (primarily, I remember my mother’s loud and terrifying threats to kill herself in the middle of the night). My sister was born right before they were divorced. In my six years of life, I was the only child and spent a lot of time with my mother. By the time my sister was 6, there was a very established relationship between my mother and I, one where I was clearly WRONG/BAD, and my mother was clearly RIGHT/GOOD.
Having witnessed my mother’s violence and suicide threats early on, as a child, I hardly ever gone out to play. Instead, I stayed home alone with my mother- so to guard her threatened life: to be there when she got crazy and to take into me her craziness (so that she had less crazy in her, craziness that would to lead her to kill herself). My sister spent a lot of her time growing up outside the home, with friends. She was very popular and social and seemed happy. She looked up to my mother, idolized her and thought she was a perfect mother, while I harbored so much anger at my mother (anger and empathy, I was terribly conflicted). I often experienced my mother as Bad. My sister’s experienced her as Perfectly Good. But she too experienced my mother’s crazy behaviors and violence: while I suffered from trauma related OCD and bodily tics (Tourette Syndrome), my sister suffered from trauma related migraines and occasional fainting.
Growing up, I thought my sister was normal and happy. I realized she was not after I moved to another country (so to escape my mother), and my sister, at 18, remained alone with my mother. At that point, my mother told my sister whom to marry (a bad choice) and much more. My sister’s own words later on was that she was a puppet on strings, my mother- who she thought was perfect- moved the strings any which way, and my sister blindly and passively obeyed, which led to my sister having, overall, a dysfunctional life. Also, I had therapy, my sister did not.
For the first 18 years of my sister’s life, she was in a better situation- and had a better childhood- because I was the main recipient of my mother’s verbal and physical violence: I fulfilled that role. I did not have an older sibling to take on that role: it was my cross to bear.
And now, to you and your 13-years-older sister: “She suffered much more as the older child, she was never accepted as she was… the fight between her and my mom wouldn’t stop… I was 12 years old when fights between her and my parents were the worst… my mom was too sick to torture me as bad as she tortured my sister… My sister was always the black sheep of the family“-
– the fights between your mother and sister were the worst when your sister was 25. It is amazing to me: I was 24 and nine months when I left my country so to escape my mother. It was after.. I don’t know how many years, 15 years perhaps, definitely more than 10 years (throughout my teenage years) of my acute suffering from the conflict of empathy for my mother (feeling sorry for her, tortured by guilt and shame in regard to being a bad daughter) and anger at her. I wanted to be FREE so badly.
(Unfortunately, following a couple of months of magical, intoxicating freedom, she was physically back in my life and the torture continued).
“I actually once told my mom directly that I wouldn’t let her bring me down like (she brought down) my sister, I don’t remember the context, but she was shocked to hear that. She was actually speechless but then she brushed it off”– your sister took that role of being the main recipient of your mother’s abuse. Maybe it was after your sister was living in another country that your mother needed you in that role…?
In summary, for now: the dynamics between your mother and older sister, between your father, mother, older siblings and other family members- none of it was or has ever been your fault. In regard to your sister-yourself: you deserved her empathy, not her hostility. She is guilty of her inconsiderate and hostile words and behaviors toward you.
Having been in her shoes though, I do not fault her for her anger toward your mother, not before and not after your mother’s death. I can tell you confidently that no daughter loved her mother more than I loved my mother- as a child and onward. Believe me when I say that there are mothers that turn a child’s most beautiful, loving heart into an angry, hateful heart. I am no longer consumed by anger at my mother because I promised myself that no matter what, she- my mother- will never be part of my life, that I will never see her or hear her voice… no matter what.
anitaNovember 18, 2022 at 12:27 pm #410234
thank you for your warm words .
you described the situation in best way , same mother but different childhood . i
m so sorry about what youve endured , being at home with your mom out of fear that she would hurt herself , i can
t imagine . conflict between hating and loving her , its unbearable .
you as my sister had tougher time which your respective mothers as older daughters . me as a daughter who was born when my mom was almost 40 had unconventional teenage years as my parents specially mam dad wasn’t that strict he used to be i could got away with almost everything . but my mom
s cancer made the life hell , i dont want to go to describe all the confusion and stress i had in my teen years , but i remember before her cancer came back i wasn
t even sure that i loved her or not after realizing she was terminally ill , i realized i would miss her a lot and she was changed too , she realized she wasnt the best mom specially to my sister , but it was too late , damage was done , she was cruel and condescending towards me , but she was busy dealing with her disease and other worries . when she passed i was so angry and broken , and i
m still wondering after 19 years why everything about her was so complicated ???even grieving , she was very wise in some areas in her life , mostly professional and investing and generally financial stuff to the point that we all can profit for years but was so foolish , arrogant towards her family, she gave us the best advice time to time , she told us i want the best things for you and she delivered as much as she could but she persistently made us worthless and like a failure . after a while especially once my dad passed im trying to forgive them both but i can see why my sister can
t . she is much more damaged or damaged in different ways that i was she spent too much time away from my parents , like 30+ and there was never a good time to discuss about problems , i dont know if the discussion would be helping knowing the both sides , i hope she could one day forgive my parents specially my mom for her own sake .
i hope you feel free now , i know you are far from her but the point is do you feel free or constantly reliving the situation of course from what i read i can say you feel much better now ,and i`m happy for that . i wonder does your sister have a relationship with you mom now?
i was always an anxious child , look always worried about something after my mom
s death , at 58 when i was 19 i was always worried about my dad , when i lost him exactly 19 years after , i can say i dont have any major worries in my life , obviously i have dreams but i don
t take stuff very serious ?or maybe i do ??i know its awful but it
s liberating , my worst concern happened and my dad passed from the same kind of cancer that my mom had , which is chilling but to be fair he was 77 . and he didnt suffer long . i guess i want to say it`s not a ideal situation obviously but i can live for myself . how to you feel about your life and your feeling right now ? tell me if you wish