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How can I do what I wan’t to do with joy?

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  • #420691
    beni
    Participant

    Good Morning Tee,

    Thank you for being here.

    Right, you didn’t want to appear needy, so the moment you shared something vulnerable, you would backtrack, because you felt people would judge you, or reject you. But now, you don’t downplay it so much anymore, because it created tension and confusion. And I guess as you’re realizing that you don’t need to hide your vulnerability – that you are not less lovable if you show it – you’ll be able to stay with it more and more, even if might feel uncomfortable at first.

    Yes, I think I’m in some transition phase.

    I see. Well, picking up someone’s dialect isn’t such a big problem, but if you find yourself doing something you’d rather not do, that’s already a problem. I guess start paying more attention to how you feel – because if we’re forcing ourselves into something we’d rather not do, we usually feel it in form of frustration and tension in our body (e.g. a pit in your stomach). So perhaps you can take it as a signal for yourself to politely excuse yourself and not participate in the activity they’re inviting you to.

    Guess your right, I don’t feel some things there yet. In such situations it’s kinda like I don’t remember my autonomy and I can submit or rebel. It’s not always like this and I am already doing way better than a few years ago. Sometimes I know what I want and it’s scary to say. I want to learn how to say it in a gentle and assertive way.

    Actually, the ability to set boundaries is a precondition for healthy relationships. There cannot be true connection if you’re not honest about what you are and aren’t willing to tolerate. If you have no boundaries, you’ll sooner or later start feeling resentment, and that ruins the relationship.

    Perhaps that’s what’s happening to you: you tolerate something for too long (you don’t set any boundaries), and then you snap and suddenly you can’t take it anymore, and you overreact? And you go into the opposite extreme of “only me”?

    Yap, that’s how it feels like. I watched a video yesterday about borderline personality and thought ah that’s how it feels.
    I reflect a lot about boundaries these days. I’d like to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I don’t think it’s something I can pretend to have or not to have.

    Fair enough. What if you told her the truth and said something like “mom, I don’t feel that great at the moment.” Do you think she would understand it, or she would downplay your pain and blame you for not being there for her?

    I’m not shure what would happen. Memory says it’s dangerous. It might be alright as she is working on herself too. It’s easy to answer more closed questions, that is something she could do. I also know that in such situations I’d not remember any closed questions.
    I’d like to help her, I could ask her what would you like to know?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #420697
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Beni,

    thank you too, it’s a pleasure to talk to you.

    Yes, I think I’m in some transition phase.

    Good, you definitely have a lot of self-awareness, you’re very observant of yourself. And you’re understanding your old patterns and trying to respond differently in some situations. Which is great! It’s a slow change, but that’s totally okay.

    You can even tell some people – but only those you trust – that you’re trying to be more open about your feelings and show more vulnerability, and so not to worry about you but simply lend you a listening ear, without needing to fix anything. I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but anyway, just a suggestion in case it may help you open up even more.

    Guess your right, I don’t feel some things there yet. In such situations it’s kinda like I don’t remember my autonomy and I can submit or rebel. It’s not always like this and I am already doing way better than a few years ago. Sometimes I know what I want and it’s scary to say. I want to learn how to say it in a gentle and assertive way.

    What I am noticing is that your communication style is very gentle. So I am guessing that you have it in you and that it won’t be that hard to express yourself in a gentle, yet assertive way.

    As for the black-or-white reaction (submit or rebel), that’s very typical because those are the only two ways we’ve learned as children. And it’s actually a part of our trauma response (fight-flight-freeze). Fight would be to rebel, flight or freeze would be to submit, I guess.

    I think what could help is not to view such situations like an attack – like someone threatening you – but more like someone expressing their preference and you having the right to accept it or refuse it. You having the right to express your own preference.

    My experience is that whenever I don’t feel helpless about the situation, the more empowered and less angry I feel. Because I know I have options – I can say no and refuse to do what I don’t want to do. So this gives me a more relaxed attitude about it, rather than triggering the fight-or-flight response, where I feel I need to defend myself from danger.

    And then you can be more diplomatic about it, e.g. saying “I know how much you’d love to see this movie, but I really feel tired today and need to get some rest”. So you acknowledge their need, but you also express your own need. That’s how you assert yourself politely and gently. Does that makes sense?

    Yap, that’s how it feels like. I watched a video yesterday about borderline personality and thought ah that’s how it feels.

    You mean the extremes of feelings that a person with a BPD feels (e.g. first the intense love for someone, then intense hate after the person doesn’t give them everything they ask for)?

    I reflect a lot about boundaries these days. I’d like to learn how to set healthy boundaries. I don’t think it’s something I can pretend to have or not to have.

    Yeah, you can’t pretend to have boundaries. I mean, we can have too weak boundaries, which can be easily crossed, or too rigid boundaries, where we put up a wall around ourselves. It takes some healing and practice to learn how to set healthy boundaries. And also self-awareness, because you first need to know what is it that you want and don’t want in your life.

    I’m not shure what would happen. Memory says it’s dangerous.

    I totally get you. I also have a bad experience acknowledging weakness or vulnerability to my mother. It always backfired because she would blame me for my own suffering, telling me that it’s all my fault, or she would later use the information against me, to attack me or judge me in some way. She never showed empathy. So yeah, admitting that I am hurting was always dangerous and traumatic.

    It might be alright as she is working on herself too.

    Oh really? Is she attending therapy? Because my mother has always refused it – she keeps blaming other people (including me) for her problems.

    It’s easy to answer more closed questions, that is something she could do. I also know that in such situations I’d not remember any closed questions.

    I’d like to help her, I could ask her what would you like to know?

    You mean, when she asks you how you are, but actually has that martyr expression on her face and you know she isn’t really interested in knowing how you are – you think that it would help if you asked her “what would you like to know?” instead of answering a more general question of “how are you?”

     

    #420719
    beni
    Participant

    Good Evening Tee,

    You can even tell some people – but only those you trust – that you’re trying to be more open about your feelings and show more vulnerability, and so not to worry about you but simply lend you a listening ear, without needing to fix anything. I don’t know if this would be too much to ask, but anyway, just a suggestion in case it may help you open up even more.

    That’s a very good point. People tend to be overwhelmed or to give advice.

    What I am noticing is that your communication style is very gentle. So I am guessing that you have it in you and that it won’t be that hard to express yourself in a gentle, yet assertive way.

    I do and also I work hard for it.

    As for the black-or-white reaction (submit or rebel), that’s very typical because those are the only two ways we’ve learned as children. And it’s actually a part of our trauma response (fight-flight-freeze). Fight would be to rebel, flight or freeze would be to submit, I guess.

    I think what could help is not to view such situations like an attack – like someone threatening you – but more like someone expressing their preference and you having the right to accept it or refuse it. You having the right to express your own preference.

    I agree and I often have this perspective. In Non-Violent Communication, one teaching which stuck with me was: “If you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it”. I belief it’s true. And yet there are situations where I do not leave because I forget that I can. I forget that I have options. Or I just can’t (mentally) and then I know it and live with that.

    My experience is that whenever I don’t feel helpless about the situation, the more empowered and less angry I feel. Because I know I have options – I can say no and refuse to do what I don’t want to do. So this gives me a more relaxed attitude about it, rather than triggering the fight-or-flight response, where I feel I need to defend myself from danger.

    Yes, it’s about admitting to your self that I have options. I can skip work, weddings, breakfast or whatever if I want. This really helps, these days it’s one of my main practices to give myself all the options. Maybe even too many. I give it to other people too, it’s like: “Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”. There’s more to it, the next step might be that there are boundaries and values added to it. Acceptance and tolerance.

    I read that some people can’t say no at all, some options are just not practical even if it would be the right thing to do. I don’t push for it anymore. Like with my mom. I accept it happening or not happening.

    And then you can be more diplomatic about it, e.g. saying “I know how much you’d love to see this movie, but I really feel tired today and need to get some rest”. So you acknowledge their need, but you also express your own need. That’s how you assert yourself politely and gently. Does that makes sense?

    Yes, it makes sense and I can make sense out of it. The first part : “I know how much you’d love to see this movie”, I really want to adopt that. I think it can help making it less scary because there is empathy with autonomy. Yeah, I think I really want to use empathy and autonomy together. That might be powerfull. Autonomy is kinda scary by itself.

    You mean the extremes of feelings that a person with a BPD feels (e.g. first the intense love for someone, then intense hate after the person doesn’t give them everything they ask for)?

    I think in the broad I mean that somedays I feel connected and then shy again (withdrawl). In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. BPD is overkill. I can connect with the following.

    – abandonment is unbearable
    – unstable sense of self
    – it feels like I can’t be without a person (that’s what it makes hard to leave)

    I think I mentioned it because I understood that you do not make boundaries then you boundaries are met by withdrawal.

    Yeah, you can’t pretend to have boundaries. I mean, we can have too weak boundaries, which can be easily crossed, or too rigid boundaries, where we put up a wall around ourselves. It takes some healing and practice to learn how to set healthy boundaries. And also self-awareness, because you first need to know what is it that you want and don’t want in your life.

    I belief atm, it’s something I need to feel rather than decide.

    I totally get you. I also have a bad experience acknowledging weakness or vulnerability to my mother. It always backfired because she would blame me for my own suffering, telling me that it’s all my fault, or she would later use the information against me, to attack me or judge me in some way. She never showed empathy. So yeah, admitting that I am hurting was always dangerous and traumatic.

    And I get you, de only difference is our mom’s strategy.

    Oh really? Is she attending therapy? Because my mother has always refused it – she keeps blaming other people (including me) for her problems.

    Yes, she does. You right, it’s great and a thing to be celebrated. Good to be reminded.

    You mean, when she asks you how you are, but actually has that martyr expression on her face and you know she isn’t really interested in knowing how you are – you think that it would help if you asked her “what would you like to know?” instead of answering a more general question of “how are you?

    Yes, I noticed that I answer questions which are more specific. I think she needs to connect and in this moment and does not know how.

     

    #420732
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Beni,

    That’s a very good point. People tend to be overwhelmed or to give advice.

    Thank you, I am glad you like it. Yeah, some people are quick to try to fix the problem, rather than just listening and empathizing with the person. And some don’t know what to say and feel uncomfortable. So yeah, you might want to try this approach with the people you trust.

    In Non-Violent Communication, one teaching which stuck with me was: “If you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it”

    Oh I love that! Very good point. Have you been learning NV communication? Because you do sound very balanced in your communication here…

    And yet there are situations where I do not leave because I forget that I can. I forget that I have options. Or I just can’t (mentally) and then I know it and live with that.

    Yes, when we’re in the stress response, our rational brain sort of switches off and our perspective shrinks. We don’t see that we have options. And so we slip into our automatic reaction, which for you might be to stay in a situation even if it’s uncomfortable.

    Yes, it’s about admitting to your self that I have options. I can skip work, weddings, breakfast or whatever if I want. This really helps, these days it’s one of my main practices to give myself all the options. Maybe even too many. I give it to other people too, it’s like: “Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”.

    Yes, that’s good – to know that you do have options, and to allow yourself to do what feels right to you, not that what is expected from you. So you’re giving yourself unconditional acceptance. Which is cool!

    Maybe even too many.

    Well, if you choose to do things that might be hurtful to others, that’s a different story. For example, you promise something to someone and they count on you, and then you change your mind in the last moment leaving them stranded – that would be giving yourself too much leeway. Not having accountability. So that’s already the opposite extreme. But if your actions don’t cause harm to anyone, you absolutely have the right to give yourself options and refuse to do what doesn’t feel right to you.

    “Whatever you’re gonna do I will accept you”.

    Again, if you give someone a “carte blanche” to take advantage of you, that’s not the best you can do for yourself. You need to protect yourself from toxic people, for example. But if this person is not harming you, then indeed you can give them the freedom to do what they want without feeling offended about it.

    There’s more to it, the next step might be that there are boundaries and values added to it. Acceptance and tolerance.

    Yes, exactly. You can be both tolerant and accepting and have boundaries. Because a boundary indicates the point where you start feeling violated in some way – when their actions affect you in a negative way. We shouldn’t accept everything, e.g. we shouldn’t accept abuse. Boundaries serve that purpose – to protect ourselves from abuse.

    I read that some people can’t say no at all, some options are just not practical even if it would be the right thing to do. I don’t push for it anymore. Like with my mom. I accept it happening or not happening.

    You mean you don’t want to set a boundary with your mother, even if it would be the right thing to do? Don’t know if I understood that right…

    The first part : “I know how much you’d love to see this movie”, I really want to adopt that. I think it can help making it less scary because there is empathy with autonomy. Yeah, I think I really want to use empathy and autonomy together. That might be powerfull. Autonomy is kinda scary by itself.

    Yes, definitely, setting boundaries is best done if you have empathy and understanding for the other person. That’s the point of being assertive: you respect the other person’s needs, but you also respect your own needs.

    Autonomy in itself in not bad though. I guess you mean autonomy as in being selfish and self-centered? Not taking other people into account? And yeah, that’s bad.

    I think in the broad I mean that somedays I feel connected and then shy again (withdrawl). In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. BPD is overkill. I can connect with the following.

    – abandonment is unbearable
    – unstable sense of self
    – it feels like I can’t be without a person (that’s what it makes hard to leave)

    So are you saying that you’re not diagnosed with BPD, but you see some similarities with it in your behavior?

    What you’re saying here: “In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. abandonment is unbearable” could indicate that you need a secure attachment with your romantic partner (something you haven’t received from your mother), but you also need a lot of autonomy too, a lot of freedom to be yourself (which again, you were not allowed as a child).

    Both of those instincts – to be attached/bonded to someone and to be free to be ourselves – are healthy impulses. They are not or should not be in a contradiction with each other. But in an unhealthy relationship they are in contradiction, because we can’t be bonded if we are being ourselves. As a child, we were rejected if we were ourselves, e.g. if we showed neediness or weakness or whatever our parents didn’t like. So we were conditioned to abandon ourselves.

    And it could be that you’re having this struggle within you: how to be bonded to someone and at the same time remain autonomous, remain free to be yourself?

    And I get you, de only difference is our mom’s strategy.

    What is your mom’s strategy?

    Yes, she does. You right, it’s great and a thing to be celebrated. Good to be reminded.

    Yes, that’s good news and something to be appreciated. I hope your relationship improves as a result!

    Yes, I noticed that I answer questions which are more specific. I think she needs to connect and in this moment and does not know how.

    Oh I see… so you think that she wants to genuinely connect and have a deeper relationship with you, but doesn’t know how, since her previous patterns were not healthy? But now, as she is working on herself, she wants to change that?

     

    #420736
    beni
    Participant

    Hi Tee 🙂

    Oh I love that! Very good point. Have you been learning NV communication? Because you do sound very balanced in your communication here…

    Yes, I listen to the audiobooks many times and close to everything on youtube. It’s a great tool. I really enjoy to text with you Tee. It’s nourishing and you have a harmonious way to do it. How did you learn it?

     

    Yes, when we’re in the stress response, our rational brain sort of switches off and our perspective shrinks. We don’t see that we have options. And so we slip into our automatic reaction, which for you might be to stay in a situation even if it’s uncomfortable.

    Yes, that’s true I tend to stay. Ah, I haven’t made that connection yet that this exact situation means that I’ am stressed.

     

    Well, if you choose to do things that might be hurtful to others, that’s a different story. For example, you promise something to someone and they count on you, and then you change your mind in the last moment leaving them stranded – that would be giving yourself too much leeway. Not having accountability. So that’s already the opposite extreme. But if your actions don’t cause harm to anyone, you absolutely have the right to give yourself options and refuse to do what doesn’t feel right to you.

    I think I know what you mean. Being loyal and standing true to your word. I belief the most important is the intention behind, what if I do it out of fear? Which is something I observe. I think somethings I might have to “mess up” to learn by doing and to reconnect. I belief that’s where the fear is coming from. I did not understand why I had to do things and was manipulated into being afraid instead of showing me why it is important and valuable. I had to them to be accepted.
    I want to do it in a way which nourishes the connection rather than drains it. I can communicate it in the way we spoke about earlier.
    I need to be very careful who I do this too because if I mess up with someone I trust that does not have the capacity it can break my heart.

    I’m just thinking that I want to ask people to do this in a more playful way. It’s actually too scary to do it in real life. I feel that the effects would be similar when played. In the end I think it’s about to learn to take things less personal and that it’s okay when people get angry. (Mom and Dad still love me even if they’re angry).

     

    Again, if you give someone a “carte blanche” to take advantage of you, that’s not the best you can do for yourself. You need to protect yourself from toxic people, for example. But if this person is not harming you, then indeed you can give them the freedom to do what they want without feeling offended about it.

    I hear you are saying I have to be careful with accepting people. I’d like to explain to you the way how I see it and would be happy if you can tell me if this makes sense to you.
    I belief acceptance can be above everything. It’s like telling someone: “I don’t like you, go away” also you’re looking into each others eyes saying: “I accept you”. It differentiate here between acceptance and tolerance. Tolerance to me is to say go away.
    If I tolerate people which act out of my values it closes my heart somehow. If I don’t accept them it makes me loose myself and I loose compassion to the other person. It feels like I betray myself. Can you help me to understand this?

     

    Yes, exactly. You can be both tolerant and accepting and have boundaries. Because a boundary indicates the point where you start feeling violated in some way – when their actions affect you in a negative way. We shouldn’t accept everything, e.g. we shouldn’t accept abuse. Boundaries serve that purpose – to protect ourselves from abuse.

    You mean you don’t want to set a boundary with your mother, even if it would be the right thing to do? Don’t know if I understood that right…

    Thanks for handing this back to me. I’d like to set boundaries with my mother. What I mean is that often the best I can do is, do it in ways which are not nourishing and make her feel rejected. I only want to do it in ways which are more harmonious, if I have the capacity to do it. When I make me do it, it actually feels like the thing I talked above when I write “self betrayal”, “making me do things I don’t want to do”. It has to do with the impulse to do things perfect even if it’s against my boundaries.

     

    Yes, definitely, setting boundaries is best done if you have empathy and understanding for the other person. That’s the point of being assertive: you respect the other person’s needs, but you also respect your own needs.

    Autonomy in itself in not bad though. I guess you mean autonomy as in being selfish and self-centered? Not taking other people into account? And yeah, that’s bad.

    Yes, I mean it in a selfish way. I remember quite some situations where I do it in a selfish way. I’d choose this words for it. I do it to cope with  the fear of loosing autonomy.
    My minds great in finding every way my doing can hurt other people and it’s getting better at recognize healing things I do.

    Wow, this is bigger than I thought. It feels like this is connected with why it’s rather difficult to organize meetups with people. I need connection and I know how to get connection without empathy. Hihi, to get connection without empathy. That sound like a crooked and painful concept.

     

    So are you saying that you’re not diagnosed with BPD, but you see some similarities with it in your behavior?

    Yes, it resonates within.

     

    What you’re saying here: “In romantic relationship’s I get very attached and then I need a lot of space. abandonment is unbearable” could indicate that you need a secure attachment with your romantic partner (something you haven’t received from your mother), but you also need a lot of autonomy too, a lot of freedom to be yourself (which again, you were not allowed as a child).

    Yeah, I really need that.

     

    Both of those instincts – to be attached/bonded to someone and to be free to be ourselves – are healthy impulses. They are not or should not be in a contradiction with each other. But in an unhealthy relationship they are in contradiction, because we can’t be bonded if we are being ourselves. As a child, we were rejected if we were ourselves, e.g. if we showed neediness or weakness or whatever our parents didn’t like. So we were conditioned to abandon ourselves.

    And it could be that you’re having this struggle within you: how to be bonded to someone and at the same time remain autonomous, remain free to be yourself?

    Yes, “schnieef”. I connect to the words you write. Again connection and autonomy 😉

     

    What is your mom’s strategy?

    My mom thinks everything is her fault and her responsibility.

     

    Oh I see… so you think that she wants to genuinely connect and have a deeper relationship with you, but doesn’t know how, since her previous patterns were not healthy? But now, as she is working on herself, she wants to change that?

    Thanks for pointing this out Tee. I wanted to say that in this situation she does not know how to meet her needs yet and what I think she really needs.
    I think she’s working on herself. She’s not reaching out to me.

     

    #420856
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Beni,

    sorry for the late response, I am on holidays and am not spending much time at the computer. Also am having some health issues, which are bogging me down, so I am not in my top form…

    Yes, I listen to the audiobooks many times and close to everything on youtube. It’s a great tool. I really enjoy to text with you Tee. It’s nourishing and you have a harmonious way to do it. How did you learn it?

    Thanks Beni. I’ve never really learned NV communication per se, just always tried to understand the other person’s point of view and put myself in their shoes. That always helps have more compassion and understanding. And I’ve been a good listener too, always asking people how they are, inquiring about them. But I have to admit, now that I am suffering from health challenges, it’s not always easy because I have to deal with my own pain and have less capacity to deal with other people’s pain.

    Yes, that’s true I tend to stay. Ah, I haven’t made that connection yet that this exact situation means that I’ am stressed.

    Glad you’re noticing it now – that when you feel you don’t have options, it’s actually a stress response, not the reality of the situation. So in those situations, try to slow things down (e.g. do some slow deep breathing), and give yourself time to answer.

    I mean, if someone asks you something you don’t necessarily want to do, you don’t have to give your answer immediately. You can say you have to check your calendar and will let them know later, or something to that effect. And then you can process your upset when you’re alone, and then when you’re calmer, you can decide whether you want to go or not. Keeping in mind that you don’t have to please everyone and that “if you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it“.

    I think I know what you mean. Being loyal and standing true to your word. I belief the most important is the intention behind, what if I do it out of fear? Which is something I observe.

    Yeah, that’s not a good motivation. If you do things you don’t want to do out of fear of being rejected, that’s not a healthy place.

    I think somethings I might have to “mess up” to learn by doing and to reconnect. I belief that’s where the fear is coming from. I did not understand why I had to do things and was manipulated into being afraid instead of showing me why it is important and valuable. I had to them to be accepted.

    You mean your parents intimidated you into doing something which is otherwise important and valuable (e.g. visit a sick grandmother), and you felt pressured to do it? Whereas if they would have explained, you would have done it more gladly?

    It just occurs to me that we need to first have compassion for ourselves, and only then can we have compassion for other people. If we are forced to do something while our own needs are not taken into consideration, what we’ll feel is anger and resentment. And then even if something is worthwhile and kind (such as visiting our sick grandmother), we’ll see it as a burden and have resistance towards it. Not sure if you relate to this?

    I want to do it in a way which nourishes the connection rather than drains it. I can communicate it in the way we spoke about earlier.
    I need to be very careful who I do this too because if I mess up with someone I trust that does not have the capacity it can break my heart.

    I’m just thinking that I want to ask people to do this in a more playful way. It’s actually too scary to do it in real life. I feel that the effects would be similar when played. In the end I think it’s about to learn to take things less personal and that it’s okay when people get angry. (Mom and Dad still love me even if they’re angry).

    Well, we can’t please everyone. It sounds like you’re afraid that if you say No, people will get angry and you can’t bear that. Actually, there might be people who will get angry with us if we set boundaries – because they’ve learned to abuse us and exploit us. But good people – people who are your true friends and who are non-manipulative – will never get angry if you set healthy boundaries. They’ll respect those boundaries. So if you set boundaries and someone attacks you and blames you for that, they’re not a good friend.

    I belief acceptance can be above everything. It’s like telling someone: “I don’t like you, go away” also you’re looking into each others eyes saying: “I accept you”. It differentiate here between acceptance and tolerance. Tolerance to me is to say go away.
    If I tolerate people which act out of my values it closes my heart somehow. If I don’t accept them it makes me loose myself and I loose compassion to the other person. It feels like I betray myself. Can you help me to understand this?

    I hear what you’re saying. You want to be loving to everyone, you don’t want to close your heart to anyone, right? And you feel you need to close your heart to people if you want to set boundaries?

    This might be if those people are manipulative and can’t just accept your boundaries, but blame you for it. And so you start feeling angry with them and inevitably you close your heart, because it hurts to be blamed…. Is that what is happening?

    Thanks for handing this back to me. I’d like to set boundaries with my mother. What I mean is that often the best I can do is, do it in ways which are not nourishing and make her feel rejected. I only want to do it in ways which are more harmonious, if I have the capacity to do it.

    Do you feel she is blaming you and guilt-tripping you if you set boundaries? Because that’s what might cause you to feel rejected, and you might want to go against your wishes and do it anyway, because you don’t want to hurt her?

    When I make me do it, it actually feels like the thing I talked above when I write “self betrayal”, “making me do things I don’t want to do”. It has to do with the impulse to do things perfect even if it’s against my boundaries.

    Yeah, it could be that you do betray yourself because if you’re being yourself, you get blamed and rejected, and you don’t want that. We as children are totally dependent on our parents. And so we often betray ourselves because we need to stay in the relationship – it’s a survival instinct. And we keep that in our adulthood too.

    So you might be doing something similar with you mother – desperately wanting to stay in the relationship and feeling that the only way to do it is if you betray yourself? (or at least that’s how it was the past?)

    Yes, I mean it in a selfish way. I remember quite some situations where I do it in a selfish way. I’d choose this words for it. I do it to cope with the fear of loosing autonomy.

    Sometimes we believe we’re selfish (or people accuse us of being selfish) if we want to respect our own needs. People pleasers believe they are selfish whenever they say No to anything. So I would reevaluate those instances where you felt you were selfish. Maybe you said it in an angry tone and lacking diplomacy, but your basic impulse was to protect yourself and your own needs?

    My minds great in finding every way my doing can hurt other people and it’s getting better at recognize healing things I do.

    Yeah, it seems you are very careful not to hurt people. But sometimes people will be hurt because you’re not letting them to take advantage of you any more. In reality, you’re not hurting them, but they might still accuse you of hurting them…. so that’s a challenge you’ll need to deal with.

    Wow, this is bigger than I thought. It feels like this is connected with why it’s rather difficult to organize meetups with people. I need connection and I know how to get connection without empathy. Hihi, to get connection without empathy. That sound like a crooked and painful concept.

    I think that real, genuine connection can’t exist without empathy on both sides. If you care about people, but they don’t care about you or your needs, that’s not real connection. With some people we just can’t have a genuine connection, because they don’t have empathy or understanding for us, but rather, they want to manipulate us or take advantage of us. I don’t know if this has been your experience, but I am just saying: it’s impossible to be open-hearted and unguarded with everyone because some people will take advantage of that.

    Yes, “schnieef”. I connect to the words you write. Again connection and autonomy

    Yes, we need to have both. We shouldn’t sacrifice ourselves in order to stay in an abusive or manipulative relationship.

    My mom thinks everything is her fault and her responsibility.

    But it seems she somehow shifts (or used to shift) a part of that blame on you? Or you felt sorry for her because she seemed helpless, she was pitying herself (you said she was in the martyr role) – and so you gave up on yourself so she would be less upset and less miserable about her own life?

    I wanted to say that in this situation she does not know how to meet her needs yet and what I think she really needs.
    I think she’s working on herself. She’s not reaching out to me.

    Good. If she’s learning how to meet her own needs, rather than expecting you to do that, that’s a good sign. I hope she’ll keep working on herself and also that you’ll be able to set better boundaries with her, not feeling selfish for doing that.

     

    #420889
    Peter
    Participant

    <p lang=”en-US” style=”margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11.0pt;”></p>
    <p lang=”en-US” style=”margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11.0pt;”>Came across this statement the other day: “Joy is whatever is happening, minus our opinion of it“. – Joko Beck</p>
    <p lang=”en-US”>Joy is a experience, full stop. As as a experience Joy has no opposite, there is no un-Joy, like thier is for happiness. One can be happy or be unhappy suggesting that happiness is a measure of something we create or un-create.  Begging the question of why would someone un-create happiness? I have no answer but defiantly something I do so must wonder if being un-happy at times makes me happy.</p>
    <p lang=”en-US”>Perhaps the better word for that experience is Joy as Joy being a happening exits in both the happy and unhappy or unwanted experience. It seems to me that often in those moments that I wish was something other then what it is, I can be very engaged, very alive in dealing with it. I may not like it or want what is happening and perhaps because of that all the senses are firing. And in the moment if I do not judge, measure or label it as liking or not liking, happy or unhappy… that engagement is Joy.</p>
    <p lang=”en-US”>Joko Beck is right</p>
    <p lang=”en-US”></p>

    #421168
    beni
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

    Good you can stay away from the PC during holidays. I’m also away and without a keyboard device. I already did a full reply two days ago and it got lost on the way. Now am doing it again.
    I hear that you’re in pain yourself thank you for explaining me why it takes longer for a reply. Also that you did when you found energy for it.

    Thanks Beni. I’ve never really learned NV communication per se, just always tried to understand the other person’s point of view and put myself in their shoes. That always helps have more compassion and understanding. And I’ve been a good listener too, always asking people how they are, inquiring about them. But I have to admit, now that I am suffering from health challenges, it’s not always easy because I have to deal with my own pain and have less capacity to deal with other people’s pain.

    I grateful there are people who know how to communicate in a compassionate way. In a way which creates space in the heart. I understand, it’s hard to be here for people when you need you’re resources to take care of yourself. Maybe you need people to take care of you. I want to tell you that if you wan’t to talk about something there is space for it.

    Glad you’re noticing it now – that when you feel you don’t have options, it’s actually a stress response, not the reality of the situation. So in those situations, try to slow things down (e.g. do some slow deep breathing), and give yourself time to answer.

    Yes, that’s a big thing! What also helps is this accupuncture matt I’m trying since three weeks. It’s also very good when you have pain as it helps to refocus on other sensations.

    I mean, if someone asks you something you don’t necessarily want to do, you don’t have to give your answer immediately. You can say you have to check your calendar and will let them know later, or something to that effect. And then you can process your upset when you’re alone, and then when you’re calmer, you can decide whether you want to go or not. Keeping in mind that you don’t have to please everyone and that “if you meet someones needs against your own needs, everyone is gonna pay for it“.

    Good to read that, even when I know things I need to read and be told again and again. It seems to have more power when it comes from outside.

    Yeah, that’s not a good motivation. If you do things you don’t want to do out of fear of being rejected, that’s not a healthy place.

    You mean your parents intimidated you into doing something which is otherwise important and valuable (e.g. visit a sick grandmother), and you felt pressured to do it? Whereas if they would have explained, you would have done it more gladly?

    Yes, I’m learning that there are people who feel when you’re not alright and then they ask me about it. My parent’s don’t know how to do that yet. I think they might be learning it right now.
    I think there was a lack of understanding and space in my upbringing.

    It just occurs to me that we need to first have compassion for ourselves, and only then can we have compassion for other people. If we are forced to do something while our own needs are not taken into consideration, what we’ll feel is anger and resentment. And then even if something is worthwhile and kind (such as visiting our sick grandmother), we’ll see it as a burden and have resistance towards it. Not sure if you relate to this?

    Yes, I can even say that somewhere I want to visit grandma and there is something more important so important that it needs to be cared for right now. I think the way I learned to do things is to do the visit ma and cope my need for autonomy/authenticity/love/understanding.

    What I also wanted to say is that I want to learn more by expirience and that I sometimes might have to trigger people to tell me their boundries and that this is a way I can learn without getting lost in analysis.

    Well, we can’t please everyone. It sounds like you’re afraid that if you say No, people will get angry and you can’t bear that. Actually, there might be people who will get angry with us if we set boundaries – because they’ve learned to abuse us and exploit us. But good people – people who are your true friends and who are non-manipulative – will never get angry if you set healthy boundaries. They’ll respect those boundaries. So if you set boundaries and someone attacks you and blames you for that, they’re not a good friend.

    Thanks

    I hear what you’re saying. You want to be loving to everyone, you don’t want to close your heart to anyone, right? And you feel you need to close your heart to people if you want to set boundaries?

    I belief my heart can stay open to anyone and that boundries can be set with an open heart.

    This might be if those people are manipulative and can’t just accept your boundaries, but blame you for it. And so you start feeling angry with them and inevitably you close your heart, because it hurts to be blamed…. Is that what is happening?

    It’s really hard to stay to my truth whith such people. And it really hurts if I close my heart for such people. Then frear, guilt and anger take over. I think yes, that’s what’s happening. I feel that it’s more important to keep the heart open than to reply to such things.

    Do you feel she is blaming you and guilt-tripping you if you set boundaries? Because that’s what might cause you to feel rejected, and you might want to go against your wishes and do it anyway, because you don’t want to hurt her?

    Yes, I think I couldn’t set boundries as a child there was no space for it. I would like to meet her and my needs.

    Yeah, it could be that you do betray yourself because if you’re being yourself, you get blamed and rejected, and you don’t want that. We as children are totally dependent on our parents. And so we often betray ourselves because we need to stay in the relationship – it’s a survival instinct. And we keep that in our adulthood too.

    That’s what I think might have happened.

    So you might be doing something similar with you mother – desperately wanting to stay in the relationship and feeling that the only way to do it is if you betray yourself? (or at least that’s how it was the past?)

    It’s propably all the same thing. How my mom treated me, how I feel others treat(h) me, how I treat myself. It feels pretty simple.

    Sometimes we believe we’re selfish (or people accuse us of being selfish) if we want to respect our own needs. People pleasers believe they are selfish whenever they say No to anything. So I would reevaluate those instances where you felt you were selfish. Maybe you said it in an angry tone and lacking diplomacy, but your basic impulse was to protect yourself and your own needs?

    Yes, when I did it it’s just that I didn’t know a harmonic way in that moment. I did it without compassion which creates tension.

    Yeah, it seems you are very careful not to hurt people. But sometimes people will be hurt because you’re not letting them to take advantage of you any more. In reality, you’re not hurting them, but they might still accuse you of hurting them…. so that’s a challenge you’ll need to deal with.

    Yes, people can be reminded at pain in the past. I can maybe remind them of their memory.
    My responsibility is to act with pure intentions. I’m only responsilbe for what I can control.

    I think that real, genuine connection can’t exist without empathy on both sides. If you care about people, but they don’t care about you or your needs, that’s not real connection. With some people we just can’t have a genuine connection, because they don’t have empathy or understanding for us, but rather, they want to manipulate us or take advantage of us. I don’t know if this has been your experience, but I am just saying: it’s impossible to be open-hearted and unguarded with everyone because some people will take advantage of that.

    I want to disagree. It’s also painful to close the heart. I try to find some in between. Maybe we have a different idea of what the heart is. For me it’s how spaceful the feeling in my chest is. It has to do with how much compassion I feel.
    Maybe there’s something I do not understand or can not do yet. Maybe the best I can do is just to be with my heart and not loose it.

    Yes, we need to have both. We shouldn’t sacrifice ourselves in order to stay in an abusive or manipulative relationship.

    Agree 🙂

    But it seems she somehow shifts (or used to shift) a part of that blame on you? Or you felt sorry for her because she seemed helpless, she was pitying herself (you said she was in the martyr role) – and so you gave up on yourself so she would be less upset and less miserable about her own life?

    Yes, I was strong for her maybe I was her anchor.

    Good. If she’s learning how to meet her own needs, rather than expecting you to do that, that’s a good sign. I hope she’ll keep working on herself and also that you’ll be able to set better boundaries with her, not feeling selfish for doing that.

    sadhu, sadhu, sadhuuu

    #428000
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Beni,

    I am sorry for never replying to this… I had health issues and a related health anxiety too, and it consumed me pretty much and it was hard to post anything constructive here…

    How have you been doing?

    I belief my heart can stay open to anyone and that boundries can be set with an open heart.

    I think you are right. I am learning that at the moment. To not be angry at the person, to want all the best for them, and yet to set boundaries in order to protect myself from abuse. We can have compassion for the person, and yet, the person can be toxic and self-destructive (e.g. someone who is addicted is like that). And that’s why we need to set boundaries. But still, we don’t need to hate them when we set boundaries. We don’t need to close our hearts. So yeah, I agree with you.

    At the same time, they might accuse us of being selfish for setting boundaries, they might guilt-trip us. In reality, we are not selfish, it’s just that we don’t want to be manipulated and taken advantage of. We do love them, but we don’t want to enable their addiction, for example.

    We can have compassion both for ourselves and for them (for their true self, and their true needs). And from that place, we set boundaries. So yeah, I think it’s possible to keep an open heart and yet protect ourselves from abuse. Thank you for pointing that out…

    I hope you are doing well, Beni. I’d love to hear from you, if you’re reading this…

     

    #428023
    beni
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    I’m happy and grateful to hear from you after long. It touches me that you’ve been suffering and are living trough fear for your health. I imagine you are feeling vulnerable and out of control while needing resources and confidence to handle the situation. I also Imagine that it taught you a lot and that you are wiser and stronger with this experience and in some ways grateful for it.

    How have you been doing?

    I went to Norway in August and it made me feel happy and alive. Then I was in some way depressed in November (I kinda choose it). I did not want to force myself to do anything while not knowing how to motivate myself. I learned that I worry a lot and I learned to recognize it. When I do not worry there is capacity to feel the next step and I do not get more afraid and after that freeze.
    I then did Snowboard Teacher Training in December and it triggered me a lot. I can’t hide myself any longer and I showed myself which was scary and felt natural. I belief we need to live trough the emotions/trauma and set them free by handling the situation in a way which meets our needs. I’m working occasionally these days and am making plans for summer.

    About the Heart:
    I noticed that when I live trough something like abandonment, guilt or shame and I feel my needs I can always keep the heart open. When it’s the most painful like yesterday I tried to meditate then crawl myself under a blanket in fetus pose 🙂 My body tells me what to do where to go and it’s something I trust in deeper every week. In some way it feels selfish which I think is a wrong view on it. It’s rather giving all I got for harmony and peace instead of being reactive and by that creating more pain than necessary.

    Thanks for helping me express this Tee <3

    #428025
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Beni,

    so good to hear from you again!

    It touches me that you’ve been suffering and are living trough fear for your health. I imagine you are feeling vulnerable and out of control while needing resources and confidence to handle the situation.

    Oh yes, I’ve been feeling very vulnerable, and since some of my conditions turned out to be chronic, I started feeling hopeless too. I think these health issues triggered an old childhood trauma, and brought to surface some feelings and false beliefs that I didn’t even know I had. So it’s been tough, and I am still struggling.

    But yes, I did learn a lot and managed to calm down some of my anxiety. I don’t feel so helpless any more. But it’s still a struggle because new health issues or injuries keep popping up, and it’s like I can’t get a break from it. So I am still in the midst of it, but with a little bit more positive attitude and more optimism. I hope it gets better soon…

    I learned that I worry a lot and I learned to recognize it. When I do not worry there is capacity to feel the next step and I do not get more afraid and after that freeze.

    Wow, I too learned that I worry too much about my health and that it’s actually health anxiety. I also learned that when I am anxious, the body can’t heal so well, and the pain is stronger too. When I can stop fearing and freaking out, the pain diminishes too. So that’s been super helpful.

    For you, when you don’t worry, you are more in touch with your intuition, with your true self, and can make better decisions. Cool! I will try that too – to get in touch more with my true self even as a part of me is worrying about my health and wanting to believe it will never get better.

    I then did Snowboard Teacher Training in December and it triggered me a lot. I can’t hide myself any longer and I showed myself which was scary and felt natural. I belief we need to live trough the emotions/trauma and set them free by handling the situation in a way which meets our needs.

    Congratulations on becoming a Snowboard teacher! I am glad you decided not to hide any more, and that it felt natural to be authentic, even though it was scary.

    I noticed that when I live trough something like abandonment, guilt or shame and I feel my needs I can always keep the heart open.

    Oh wow, that’s a great observation! If we are in touch with our true needs, even as we are experiencing abandonment or being shamed, we can keep our heart open. We don’t need to go into a defense mode. It’s like if we are in touch with our true needs, we are also in touch with our true self. And our true self has open heart and has compassion, always. Wow, that’s profound. I need to contemplate some more on it, but I like it.

    My body tells me what to do where to go and it’s something I trust in deeper every week. In some way it feels selfish which I think is a wrong view on it.

    Actually if we are in tune with our body, we are also in tune with our true needs. And with our intuition. So it makes sense that you would listen to your body and try to sense how you feel about something, and then do what feels right. Yeah, it makes sense to me.

    I am happy you are in touch with your needs and listening to your body and your intuition. I am sure if will lead to less freezing and a more authentic way of being. Happy to hear that, Beni!

     

    #428034
    beni
    Participant

    Good morning Tee,

    Sound’s like a not boring at all and very challenging situation your in. It’s so crazy when many thing’s hit at once. I wish that you can be loose of your struggle soon and feel healthy. It feels light to read that you get a little hold on things and being able to have some control.

    I need to contemplate some more on it

    I got inspired by Peter Levine (and Vipassana) it’s worth to check him out if you’re not knowing him yet.

    Congratulations on becoming a Snowboard teacher! I am glad you decided not to hide any more, and that it felt natural to be authentic, even though it was scary.

    Thanks, I’m touched <3

    Actually if we are in tune with our body, we are also in tune with our true needs. And with our intuition. So it makes sense that you would listen to your body and try to sense how you feel about something, and then do what feels right. Yeah, it makes sense to me.

    I feel happy that it makes sense to you 🙂 I have been observing that when I’m in touch and I fall on a Skateboard it does not hurt it’s kind of a sweet pain. As soon as there is a slight pressure (my mind wants to take control). I get more stiff it hurts and I feel I can get injured. I belief if I’m patient to wait for risky things to do with confidence, trust and flow chances high I don’t get injured.

    I think I have a similar experience with pain as you write here:

    Wow, I too learned that I worry too much about my health and that it’s actually health anxiety. I also learned that when I am anxious, the body can’t heal so well, and the pain is stronger too. When I can stop fearing and freaking out, the pain diminishes too. So that’s been super helpful.

    I’m not what is making my condition worse always the last 4 times I observed when I’m in pain there’s also guilt or abandonment around and not only as science say’s wrong movement. I might just feel this way because I belief it’s not good for me. Placebo is a deal and I’m scared but also it feels right to not take science too serious cause of the effect it has on my bodymind. It’s like it’s right for the thinking but wrong for the heart.

    I hope I do not project my things onto you. I paid attention not to do that.

    #428038
    Tee
    Participant

    Hey Beni,

    Sound’s like a not boring at all and very challenging situation your in.

    Haha, not boring at all! I wish my life were boring and I were free from all of these “surprises”…

    It’s so crazy when many thing’s hit at once. I wish that you can be loose of your struggle soon and feel healthy. It feels light to read that you get a little hold on things and being able to have some control.

    Thank you, Beni. I hope too that the struggle will lessen. And yeah, I know how to calm myself down a bit, so I am not freaking out that much.

    I got inspired by Peter Levine (and Vipassana) it’s worth to check him out if you’re not knowing him yet.

    Yes, I am familiar with Peter Levine’s work. Pretty amazing stuff. I’ve recently discovered one of his students, who is now a teacher herself: Irene Lyon. She has a youtube channel with many great videos on the nervous system, chronic pain and the body. You might want to check her out too.

    She too was a heavy-duty skier in her youth, and a fitness trainer. She had some injuries which she managed to heal with the Feldenkreis method. Later she started working with Peter Levine and developed her own trainings… Anyway, I’ve learned a lot from her.

    I have been observing that when I’m in touch and I fall on a Skateboard it does not hurt it’s kind of a sweet pain. As soon as there is a slight pressure (my mind wants to take control). I get more stiff it hurts and I feel I can get injured. I belief if I’m patient to wait for risky things to do with confidence, trust and flow chances high I don’t get injured.

    Okay, we are in slightly different situations, because I am pretty risk averse and would be afraid to get into sports where one can fall a lot 🙂 But if that’s your forte, and you want to master somewhat riskier sports, cool. But do be careful and yes, be patient till you are ready to do riskier moves.

    I’m not what is making my condition worse always the last 4 times I observed when I’m in pain there’s also guilt or abandonment around and not only as science say’s wrong movement.

    You mean you feel guilty for bringing yourself into a risky situation? And feeling abandoned by good fortune/universe when you do fall and injure yourself?

    I might just feel this way because I belief it’s not good for me.

    Just trying to understand here: a part of you believes that doing those risky moves is not good for you?

    Placebo is a deal and I’m scared but also it feels right to not take science too serious cause of the effect it has on my bodymind. It’s like it’s right for the thinking but wrong for the heart.

    Hm.. not sure what you mean here? Are you saying that you injure yourself because a part of you believes that risky moves/extreme sports aren’t good for you? That this thinking serves like a “placebo”, which makes you more prone to mistakes while skiing/skating?

    Sorry if I misunderstood you… It’s an interesting topic by all means and I’d like to understand more of your dilemma.

     

    #428122
    beni
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

    Haha, not boring at all! I wish my life were boring and I were free from all of these “surprises”…

    I’ll light a candle!

    You might want to check her out too.

    Yayy, very appreciated. I just started doing Feldenkreis and it enjoy to explore how my body moves.

    You mean you feel guilty for bringing yourself into a risky situation? And feeling abandoned by good fortune/universe when you do fall and injure yourself?

    It’s rather an observation that when I stay in my body’s space in the world it’s hard to get injured physically. It’s rather risky to do something without confidence while being in fear or when not connected with the body or not able to follow the body.

    Hm.. not sure what you mean here? Are you saying that you injure yourself because a part of you believes that risky moves/extreme sports aren’t good for you? That this thinking serves like a “placebo”, which makes you more prone to mistakes while skiing/skating?

    I forgot to tell you the fundamental of what I write is. My back started hurting last spring. I feel glimpses of the pain (3-4%).  It’s also me pushing myself which creates the condition and what the doc says. It’s confusing cause I expirience that it’s what I belief is good and bad which creates this experience. I start to belief that to heal it’s better to fully trust in my body rather then doing what makes the most sense. That’s creating insecurity cause I do not know what I’m doing.

    Okay, we are in slightly different situations, because I am pretty risk averse and would be afraid to get into sports where one can fall a lot 🙂

    When you get injured is it physical? I notice it changes as I get older. I’m more prone to injuries or sensitive to pain.

    Sorry if I misunderstood you… It’s an interesting topic by all means and I’d like to understand more of your dilemma.

    I have to smile when I read the word dilemma 🙂 cause I don’t take myself too serious.

    I think when I wrote it, it was more like that I’m so curious about this topic and there’s so much potential and hope that I have to talk about it as soon as the topic goes in such a direction. It’s in someway reactive and also authentic. Also I thought it might benefit you to hear it cause I see all that.

    Does it feel right to you when you act reactive? Is it a need which is hold back and needs to be met and we failed to meet it earlier?

    Have a good day 🙂

     

    #428123
    Tee
    Participant

    Hey Beni,

    I’ll light a candle!

    Very much appreciated!

    I forgot to tell you the fundamental of what I write is. My back started hurting last spring. I feel glimpses of the pain (3-4%). It’s also me pushing myself which creates the condition and what the doc says. It’s confusing cause I expirience that it’s what I belief is good and bad which creates this experience. I start to belief that to heal it’s better to fully trust in my body rather then doing what makes the most sense. That’s creating insecurity cause I do not know what I’m doing.

    Oh I see, so you have back pain, slight though, and you’re afraid that doing certain moves while snowboarding or skateboarding might do you harm? And that’s what also your doctor says? But another part of you trusts your own body and wants to do those moves anyway?

    What caused your pain, if I may ask? Did you injure yourself or it just came out of nowhere?

    I too am suffering from back pain, got a herniated disc. And it came out of the blue, with no trauma, no wrong move or anything like that. I just bent to pick up something from the floor and that’s when the pain started.

    When you get injured is it physical? I notice it changes as I get older. I’m more prone to injuries or sensitive to pain.

    Yes, it’s physical. I’ve had physical injuries in the last 5 years that remained chronic (like knee and back pain), and this is limiting me quite a bit…

    I think when I wrote it, it was more like that I’m so curious about this topic and there’s so much potential and hope that I have to talk about it as soon as the topic goes in such a direction. It’s in someway reactive and also authentic. Also I thought it might benefit you to hear it cause I see all that.

    Yes, I am interested in that topic too, because of these injuries and chronic pain that I have to manage and live with. It was quite an adjustment, emotionally and mentally too, to suddenly have to live with physical limitations, to not be able to do the things you loved before. I had to grieve those things. It still causes me pain (emotional pain) but I’ve learned to accept it.

    What helped a lot is also a more positive attitude towards my chronic back pain, like not catastrophizing, not believing it’s the end of the world, not fearing my every move, but believing that my body has the ability to recover, that it’s more resilient than I think. And even if I make a wrong move unintentionally, that I’ll be able to recover to my baseline, which is not pain-free, but with manageable pain, provided that I follow a pretty cautious lifestyle (unfortunately).

    What also helped me a lot in managing my back pain is the whole idea that chronic pain is largely regulated by the brain and our perception of threat and danger. If we believe that every move is dangerous, we will be more tense, more anxious, and it will cause more physical pain.

    This concept was first discovered by Dr. John Sarno, and now it is taught by Dr. Hanscom, Dr. Schubiner, as well as Tanner Murtagh, who is teaching the somatic tracking practice. He has a pretty cool youtube channel, with lots of exercises for tracking our body sensations and reducing chronic pain.

    there’s so much potential and hope that I have to talk about it as soon as the topic goes in such a direction

    As you can see, this topic can make me talk for hours 🙂 It came out of necessity, but it is what it is, I’ve learned a lot about it as I am trying to help myself…

     

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