Hi Everyone

Alessa – yes, I feel James is saying the same thing, or at least we land in the same place: “nothing is born and nothing dies.”

I was drawn to Anita’s question about whether such a nondual space is soothing, and also to the role language plays in shaping our experience. Many who encounter this kind of dissolution report a loss of inner dialogue, a kind of wordless presence, or even the absence of presence itself.

In such a state, the question of soothing fades. One is neither soothed nor not soothed. The image that comes to mind is climbing a mountain and arriving at the summit, where everything is clear. But Life has one demand, that it be lived. We are not allowed to stay, the summit may be clear, but Life asks us to descend.

James – I hear you when you say body and mind work perfectly without a “me” function. And I agree: identification with the body as person inevitably creates suffering. What I’m exploring is how language itself, not just thought, gives rise to the illusion of self. Language doesn’t just describe the “me”; it builds it. Without language, there is no scaffolding to hold the illusion together.

This was something I experienced when waking after a surgery. I was ‘aware’ of ‘being’ without any sense of I, until a question was thought… who or what was aware… where was the I… Immediately I was pulled into consciousness, building my ‘self’ with all the labels… all the while a second thought – Noooooooooo.

That moment of self-return was like a ripple on a still pond. It marked the transition from unstructured awareness into the architecture of identity. The thought itself was not just a question; it was a summoning. It called forth the scaffolding of “I”… the labels, the history, the body, all the familiar furniture of self.

This mirrors creation stories where the world begins with a word:
– In Genesis: “In the beginning was the Word…”
– In Hindu cosmology: “Aum” is the primordial vibration – waking, dreaming, unconscious, silence – waking, dreaming, unconscious, silence….
– In Buddhist thought: the arising of nama-rupa (name and form) marks the beginning of duality.

That experience of being pulled back by a single thought, slowed down perhaps by that anesthesia, is perhaps one that occurs on each waking… felt like the seed of separation, the moment the mirror turns and reflects a “me.” And I wonder if the inner Nooooooo was the soul’s recognition of the cost: the return to form, to story, to suffering. Yet even this return is sacred as It’s what allows us to walk, speak, love, and create.

So, when we return from that summit, from the clarity of total disappearance… does the experience soothe?

My observation, sometimes yes, sometimes no. No, when it’s mistaken as a goal or a possession. Yes, when it loosens the grip of identity and teaches us to hold words, and selves, desires… more lightly. At least that has been my experience.

Hi James

I feel we’re describing the same landscape, just from different elevations. You’re speaking from the summit, the view where even the observer dissolves, and thoughts arise and fall within the Unnamable. I’m describing the descent, the moment when the “I” returns through the doorway of thought and language.

I don’t view the return as a failure, but part of the rhythm of being human. The clarity of total disappearance is real and so is the reappearance of identity.

“It is nothing other than what We truly are”. – Life as it is.

Hello Everyone:

Thomas wrote, “Talking about a person has no real self doesn’t help the person who suffered trauma at the hands of their abusers.”-

I agree. Abuse fractures a person’s sense of safety, identity, and relational trust—as it did to me. Survivors like me often spend years reclaiming the right to say: “I exist. I matter. What happened to me was real.”

To then be told “there is no real self” can feel like a philosophical erasure of that pain.

The no-self theory, when applied to trauma, abuse, and healing, risks spiritual bypassing. When non-dual language is used to sidestep accountability—e.g., “there’s no doer, so no one harmed you”—it becomes a tool of denial. Survivors may feel gaslit, invalidated, or retraumatized.

It can even mimic the abuser’s tactics. Abusers often distort reality, deny harm, and fragment the victim’s sense of self. When spiritual communities echo this—however unintentionally—it replicates the original wound under the guise of enlightenment.

Can “No-Self” and Trauma Healing Coexist?

I believe they can—but sequence matters. Before dissolving the self, survivors must first reclaim it. As therapist Bonnie Badenoch writes: “We need a coherent sense of self before we can safely explore its dissolution.”- Healing begins with integration, not transcendence.

Instead of saying “you don’t exist,” a trauma-informed teacher might say: “The self is real enough to suffer—and sacred enough to honor. And beyond it, there is spaciousness.”- This honors both the wound and the wisdom.

Also, non-duality must never be used to bypass harm. A truly awakened stance includes: Naming abuse, Holding boundaries, Restoring dignity.

Only then can the “no-self” insight become liberating rather than annihilating.

James to Thomas: “I fully hear what you are saying. It is true — speaking of ‘no self’ to someone who is carrying deep trauma can feel like dismissing their pain. That is not my intention. What you say… about meeting people with compassion, listening to them, holding space — that is deeply valid. Wisdom without compassion is empty.” True indeed.

Peter wrote: “I was drawn to Anita’s question about whether such a nondual space is soothing.”- In sequence, it can be soothing—after the validation and reclamation of self.

—Anita

It occured to me I may have confused things with the last notion where the seeker becomes the sought.

I was imagining that in the sense that “what you seek is also seeking you”

In Sufism, this is viewed as seeker longing for union with the Divine, often called the Beloved. The path is one of love, devotion, and surrender. But the deeper realization is that the seeker and the Beloved were never separate. The search itself dissolves, and what remains is the recognition that the seeker is the sought.

As Rumi writes: “You wander from room to room hunting for the diamond necklace that is already around your neck.”

So, becoming the sought means awakening to the truth that what you were looking for was never outside you, it was your own essence all along. We return were we started – “we were never born and we never die” – “It is just What We Truly are”

Thank you, Peter.

I didn’t read your whole post, Tommy (red wine and late hour), but I got to say, Tommy- I am growing to really, really like you… dementia (lol) or not. I am getting your style.. and I’m liking .. you, Tommy! (more tomorrow)

Anita

There is even a technique taught to develop mental flexibility which essentially teaches you to not solely view situations from your own perspective. To view them as a whole and see them for what they actually are, instead of through a lens of personal feelings. There are so many techniques available for people who are open to them, when they are ready.

Readiness is key. Someone at the beginning of their healing journey would probably have difficulty. Talking about experiences is a good way for people to get used to exploring their feelings. ❤️