I am thinking about you, Seaturtle at this time, nine minutes to 5:30. May the Force Be With You (taken from Star Wars.. in case you don’t know). Stick to your plan, and let me know how it goes…

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I was fed up yesterday, fed up with N and his appearances/ pretenses and then The Lie that was clearly a lie. I didn’t want to hear (read) any more of his pretenses and lies and get stuck in a non-ending situation with you where you remain confused by his pretenses and lies, and me repeating myself in vain.

“It will be hard but I would love nothing more than to have your support, in a breakup plan and occasional journaling on here“- absolutely, you have my support. (I prefer communicating here because I spend the majority of my online time here and not on email, but I’m okay with you having my email address, and even my phone number… if I had a phone.. long story).

“I am ready to get rid of this poison in my life… enough of my energy has been sucked away in trying to get the rose tinted goggles off my face, for this person… I have been preparing for this end for a long time, in a way, this whole past year“-

– First, now that you intend to break up with him this evening, I want to go back to your yesterday post in effort to help you get even more clarity about things and be more prepared for this evening:

“My, the night went differently than I could have expected!“- you wrote this yesterday. Be prepared that once again, this evening, he will use his impressive gaslighting and other skills to throw you off your goal of breaking up with him. Be prepared that he will say things and employ appearances that you don’t expect. Better still, we can predict what he might say and do tonight, so that nothing is a surprise to you.

Coming to think about it, you don’t owe him to explain anything to him in-person. It will be perfectly fine if you explain things to him in-writing, an email, and avoid being exposed to gaslighting in-person.

Back to your yesterday’s post:  “So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine“- no wine during a break-up meeting.. or weed, or any such drug.

“he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left!…  and I appreciated this answer“- prepare for the possibility that he will flatter you and tell you very nice things about you and the positives you have had in his life (and still can have in the future), and otherwise say things that will make you feel good.

“I said ‘You encourage me to do what I love to do‘ and I had a second one ‘You are willing to try to communicate and don’t like going to sleep upset with each other‘, a few nights ago…  he wanted to come over to cuddle up and I just appreciate that he likes to hug or be loving after an argument, it makes me feel safe”-

– prepare for the possibilities that he will repeat tonight what he knows (because you told him) that you like and that which makes you feel safe.. with him: encouraging you to do what you love to do, do his best (skilled yet insincere and manipulative) communicating, and offer to hug/ cuddle with you.

“He said ‘I really like that you...’ I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did”- be prepared to.. be suspicious of anything he says following the words I really like that you... I appreciate that you... etc.,  anything he says that flatters you.

“I was proud of myself though, because I was able to speak clearly and I did not allow him to gaslight me again, which he was trying to do. However…“- However… he ended up gaslighting you.

I was impressed yesterday, reading how clearly and intelligently you expressed yourself to him. Unfortunately, you were not a match to his manipulating skills. This happened last night. You may be successfully gaslit again tonight. This is why breaking up with him via email, not being exposed to his manipulating/ gaslighting skills, may be a good idea.

“He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try”- prepare for him to nod again, just at the right moment, and to seem/ appear to understand.

“End of our night he said something that made me really have a new perspective about everything”- End of the night, he successfully gaslit you.

“He said ‘Do you think the victim is always right?‘… I did not foresee this kind of questioning”– prepare for him to ask you a question or questions that are meant for him to take the lead of the conversation, leading you away from your goal and clarity and toward confusion and another successful gaslighting event.

“I said: ‘… you were investigating me‘. He shook his head no, he did not understand… I went on to tell him the gravity of gaslighting, after understanding that he genuinely did not socially understand… he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all”-

– he did investigate you and he did understand that he investigated you. By falsely and dishonestly claiming that he had no understanding that he investigated you, he places himself in the (false) position of an innocent child who needs an adult to explain basic things to him.

“I said ‘There’s multiple issues here, but it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across’“- you bought his false claim(that he is like an innocent child who needs to be taught) and you were, at this point, proceeding the way he wanted you to proceed.

“When I went on about this example he looked completely defeated, he said something along the lines of ‘I had no idea I came across that way.’… he looked completely stunned“- the deceit continues: the lies and the insincere appearance of being defeated and stunned. Expect lies and insincere appearances tonight.

“I genuinely believed him“- bingo, he got you, gaslighting mission accomplished!

“You are over here socially unaware of how you are coming across to me“- he is aware, very aware of how he comes across to you, so aware that he successfully plans and executes coming across the way he wants to come across to you. He is very good at it too, the reason that meeting him in-person for a breakup might be a bad idea.

“At this point we both had tears in our eyes“- be prepared for tears in his eyes, or for him trying to get his tears to flow.

I said ‘There can be a solution, but it has to be you increasing your awareness of how you are treating me so that you either stop…'”-

– based on his success in manipulating you, you figured here that the solution is not to break up with the manipulative adult in front of you, but to teach an innocent child (that he is neither) the basics of human interactions (while he is very aware of and skillful at human interactions.. the dishonest kind).

“He got quiet and looked in shock and defeated and hopeless“- he is an impressive performer. He got quiet because it unsettles you that he is quiet in this context.

“I said ‘babe you can’t shut down on me now‘ and he said he wanted to leave the restaurant”- anxious about him being quiet, threatened by it (fearing separation from him), he takes his threat further, threatening to leave.. you

“I hugged him“- threatened by his quietness and his gesture of leaving you, you hugged him, wanting to be connected to him, to not separate from him.

“he hugged me more delicately than he ever has, he didn’t even fully grab me, he just had one hand through my hair and the other lightly on my back, accepting my hug”- keeping you on your toes, not fully accepting you back into his life.

He said: “I don’t understand how to read people and I definitely did not understand body language for a long time and had to learn”- he learned a whole lot. He understands how to read people and body language very well, and he uses it so to his advantage at the expense of others.

“I don’t know how to behave, and I don’t know how to read other people’s behavior. I am retarded or something I don’t know.. I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest ‘ah ha’ moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times… I felt compassion… is this something I can love about him and help him?”-

– Gaslighting Mission Accomplished: he dishonestly presented himself as an innocent, helpless child who needs an adult’s help and you feel compassion for the alleged innocent and helpless child and want to help him, to teach him.

Sincerely, Seaturtle, he is very good at what he does and .. I don’t know how you can break up with him in-person.

For whatever it’s worth, regarding what to expect for him if you meet him for the purpose of breaking up with him: he will use against you the fact that (he knows that) you are emotionally very attached to him and that a big part of you does not want to break up with him, and he will once again get quiet, and maybe he’ll appear as if he is okay with you breaking up with him, just so to make you anxious and reverse your stated intent to break up with him.

You wrote today, Dec 6: “I wanted to end it last night but the timing didn’t work, I have plans to do so at 5:30pm tonight…. If you would like to start helping me with a breakup plan it would be greatly appreciated“- better that you break up with him via email where you explain to him that the reason you are not breaking up with him in person is not that you lack respect for him, but that you have too much respect for his dishonestly manipulative skills.

* About chakras and auras, tomorrow.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I am shocked to read bout your resolution. I didn’t read it all.. are you sure??? I am excited for you but also scared for you.. I will reply more, just wanted to write something as soon as I read most of your post just a moment ago.

anita

Dear Seaturtle and hatchling:

Thank you. I will read about chakras and auras in the morning, We can still talk about gaslighting in terms of Telling the difference between gut (truth/ honesty within you/ within me) and fear which often distorts the truth, and promotes dishonesty. I’ll see how chakras and auras relate to this in the morning.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

“My, the night went differently than I could have expected!“- I didn’t read yet what’s to follow. I will guess as to what’s to follow: he appeared to be very understanding, he was calm and undisturbed by anything you said. He appeared to have validated your concerns and he has given you “positive bribery” that gaslighters give their gaslightees.

“he suggested a prompt for our date last night. 1-How will you change to better the relationship, 2-what do you appreciate about the other person, 3-how could the other person change to help you/the relationship.”-

– Remember that I suggested that you give him a list of 10 questions for him to answer on paper? I was going to look up online questions used in couple counseling. But I didn’t look it up. His prompt is TAKEN from a couple counseling exercise. He looked it up online.

“So he picked me up on time, and we went to an Italian restaurant. We sat down and had a glass of wine and some appetizers”- a culinary positive bribery.

“He started, he said he was going to start taking better care of himself, his home cleanliness and eating habits, things that he said went astray when I left!… I appreciated this answer“-emotional bribery.

“He said ‘I really like that you keep us present, even when we are doing nothing it is at least present with you.’ I appreciated that he noticed this, I did not know that he did“- emotional bribery in progress: he says what he knows you would like to hear, even if he doesn’t exactly understand what he is saying.

“I said: ‘When I was young, my dad gaslit be constantly… when you tell me the things I ‘worry’ about don’t matter, it is gaslighting… He went on to gaslight me again about this situation, he said ‘it was a joke‘ and I said ‘no it was not. It was not…” He nodded at this seeming to begin to understand or at least try“- the appearance of understanding.

He said ‘Do you think the victim is always right?‘…I said ‘Not necessarily but that is not what I am talking about. I am telling you that the cash situation was not a joke at all, it was serious, I did not feel anxious for no reason, you were investigating me’… he literally did not understand how I could take his reaction as if he was investigating or judging me at all”- he is lying here, clearly LYING.

“I said… ‘it sounds like it is starting with you literally having a lack of awareness about how you come across“- no, he was aware in the grocery store that he was suspicious of you and investigating you.

“I was absolutely wowed, just had the biggest ‘ah ha’ moment. He LITERALLY did not know how was coming across, all those times I thought he was being passive aggressive and said I was too sensitive… he seriously thought I was, he was not trying to deny my feelings… curious to hear your reply to this”-

– not only do I think that he’s gaslighting you, but I think that he is better at it that I thought.  I am quite impressed by how skilled he is at this, and I am saddened by it.

In your most recent posts, you asked: “Is this Seaturtles journey? to help N?“- he is about helping himself to you via gaslighting.

“Anita, do you think it is true that people can only meet you as deeply as they’ve met themselves?“- yes.

“This would concern me, as I do want a deep relationship. Or could I just be deep within myself and not need that from a partner“- I suppose you can co-exist with a partner like N and you can learn how to get along with him somehow, in some ways.. Get your spiritual needs met elsewhere, in a spiritual community of your choosing.

My closing input: I am closing my study of N this early afternoon. I am done understanding him. I am not confused about him. I am so sorry that he has been and still is gaslighting you. But what can I do..? You are very attached to him, very motivated to try to fix it. But you can’t fix blatant and deeply ingrained dishonesty.

You are welcome to post about N as much and as often as you’d like (here on this thread or in new threads), and maybe other members would like to discuss him with you. I will no longer read about him (what he says, what he does, etc.), and I will not discuss him with you because (1)  I do not want his gaslighting input in my brain/ my life. (2) All that I can say about him, I already did. (3) There are sources online, and a book about gaslighting that may be useful to you. Plus individual therapy that perhaps you can access..?

I would very much like to communicate with you further, Seaturtle, just not about him.

* I just noticed that you posted again and NOT about him, excellent! So, my next post and all posts after will not be about N (relief!)

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I didn’t get your update yet.  I will reply to your yesterday’s posts first:

“I am recently, ever since you have started to see a more rounded image of N, confused about whether or not he is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting and if we just have different views that lead to this dynamic”-

– (1) Here is from How to Successfully Handle Gaslightgers & Stop Psychological Bullying. (nipreston. com): “In its milder forms, gaslighting creates a subtle but inequitable power dynamic in a relationship, where the gaslightee is subjected to the gaslighter’s unreasonable, rather than fact-based scrutiny, judgment, and/or micro-aggression”.

The gaslighting my mother employed was severe and overt and it included macro-aggression. On the other hand, N’s gaslighting is covert, milder, involving micro-aggression, such as when he accused you in the grocery store of having cash you were.. not supposed to have.

(2) About you being “confused about whether or not (N) is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting“, from the book: “It should be noted that not all gaslighters are intentionally malicious, or conscious of their harmful conduct… They may not be fully cognizant of the harmfulness (and hurtfulness) of their word and actions, and their painful impact on others. Other gaslighters, however, are perfectly aware of their coercive tactics, as they deliberately seek to establish power and imbalance over other people’s lives”.

“Yes I suggested (couples therapy) back when we were living together, on multiple occasions and every time his response is ‘I am not going to talk to someone who doesn’t know me at all for advice.’“- yes, I remember now, you shared this before. His response suggests to me that he doesn’t WANT to be known (by someone who might get it right about who he is) because then he’d lose his power advantage.

“Mostly I have gotten the Teflon impression. I don’t think he is trying to control my mind… I am confused again, I really am not sure if it is manipulation or Teflon, he genuinely does not let it bother him”- could be both: Teflon and SUBTLE manipulation/ gaslighting… He is perhaps gaslighting himself and gaslighting you at the same time.

I wrote to you: “something IS wrong but N says nothing is wrong, something must be wrong with Seaturtle’s perception then.. her brain must not perceive/ process information correctly.”, and your response:  “Yes, this is exactly what happens in my head and it is very confusing“.

I quoted from the article on gaslighting:  “When the deception of the person who is engaging in gaslighting is questioned, they often react by dismissing the accusation as a delusion, an emotional reaction, or an overreaction—thus conditioning the person to internalize those assessments”. Your response: “F did this for sure. As far as N, I am not 100% He has definitely dismissed accusations as delusional, but are they? Are they projections of F onto him? It is very hard for me to label N as gaslighting, and I am not sure why, I feel defensive of him. I feel guilt for doubting him behind his back“.

I wrote to you about N: “his fear of being controlled motivates him to control“, an your response: “Right, but does he know this?”. Let’s say he doesn’t know it: if you tell him (and make it therefore known to him), will he change?

If he resists your input, calling it wrong.. then he is closed to self reflection and positive change.

“So my dad 100% is this way, trying to be tall by cutting of the heads of others, no doubt he is this way“- F might be an overt, severe type of gaslighter while N may be a covert, milder type of gaslighter.

“N doesn’t do this, I don’t think.. He encouraged me to do the play! He encourages me to paint. He wants me to grow?“- you are not sure about the last one, hence the question mark. What if he encourages you to do what doesn’t bother him but discourages you to think about/ talk about/ do .. what bothers him. No gaslighter criticizes EVERYTHING about their gaslightee.

Back to the book (pdf): “Some gaslighters manipulate the gaslightee with frequent negative hostility, combined with occasional positive bribery…  In a gaslighting relationship, the gaslighter has the power to grant acceptance, approval, respect, safety, and security. He or she also has the power (and often threatens to) take them away. With this tactic, the gaslighter retains power, privilege, and entitlement”.

What if N’s encouragements are .. positive bribery?

“He talks a lot about being mentally resilient in order to achieve peace. He values peace, more than anything. We disagree on how to get it though. He thinks you simply don’t let outside factors bother you => Peace“-

– You, Seaturtle, are an outside force to him and when in conflict.. he teflons you: he doesn’t let you- an outside factor- bother him.

“N brings the people around him up, I think? He encourages his friends and works with others very well. He tends to give more than he receives in his friendships, from my perspective, but he sees their value in a way I don’t”-

– There’s the question mark again. What if N working well with others involves manipulating the people around him successfully. Some manipulation is positive, you know.

“I explained more so about how him being late often is controlling as I am just waiting for him. But he claims this is not planned, and I believe him”- if him being routinely late is unplanned.. why doesn’t he plan to be on time?

“I fell in love with someone who cannot help but to gaslight me? What a tragic love story, to be or not to be”- you need not settle for a life of being gaslit because someone can’t help but to gaslight you. It reminds me of the story of the frog and the scorpion crossing a lake. The frog carried the scorpion on its back crossing the lake, figuring that the scorpion will not bite it, because if it will, the scorpion will drown. But the scorpion bit the frog because.. it couldn’t help but to bite and kill the frog.

“I am so sorry this happened to you, although I know you do not need my sympathy I must give it!”- thank you, Seaturtle.

“I wonder why I was drawn to someone like this, I chose to be with N for so long“- because.. N is such an improvement over F, being the covert, milder form of gaslighter…?

“I am still under a belief that it is fixable and he will stop. I am not sure if this is an illusion“- makes me think of the scorpion and frog story: the frog was under the (deadly) belief and illusion that the scorpion will put a stop or a pause on its inclination to bite for the duration of the swim to safety.

“If I confront him about feeling gaslit when he does not take my worries seriously, he may change that behavior if I tell him I will leave the relationship if it does not stop, which is what I want to do tonight.”- so you want to threaten him (the one who will NOT be controlled by outside factors) to leave him so that he changes his behavior.

I noticed some time ago that you submitted your post but I didn’t read any of it. I will submit this and then read and reply to your post of 53 minutes ago.

anita

I am here, Seaturtle, looking forward to your update!

anita

Dear Livia:

You sound like (read like, more accurately) a rational, reasonable person.

“For me it was just the sudden change based on all our conversations“- being blocked with no warning is a sudden and unpleasant change, and reads like it was uncalled for, meaning, you didn’t harass him and as a result, he blocked you.

It could’ve been that it was easier for him to say nothing (to block you) than it was for him to say something  (to explain himself, to admit to what was inconvenient for him to admit to), in which case, blocking you was a weak/ cowardly move on his part.

“Sometime in the future I will confront him face to face. As for now I just need to heal and move on with my life“- reads reasonable.

“I will be travelling again to the state that the guy lives at the end of the month and I will most likely be there more regularly for business. I am not ready to have any run in with him“- may strength and courage be with you in all that you do. Please post again anytime you’d like my input.

anita