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anitaParticipantDear Caroline:
This is the most beautiful message, I am so grateful to you for this message, not just because of how well it’s written, and because of what you wrote about me, but because of what it tells me about you, about the beauty within you. I am having my first smile of the day this very moment. (I will be back to the computer Sat morning).
anita
anitaParticipantDear Caroline:
I read your recent first post attentively. Congratulations for the progress you have made in regard to your learned helplessness. I googled today, by the way, overcoming learned helplessness: there are books on the topic, one of which is “Understanding and Overcoming Learned Helplessness“. Maybe such will help you.
Your second post: “But my question is, Is it something you noticed and wanted to point out (which is very correct btw) or does this apply to my current situation with changing jobs?“- I believe that it very much applies to your current situation with changing jobs. When you have a core belief that you are not capable enough to deal with life, everything is more difficult, including looking for a job and accepting a job.. unless the job is absolutely perfect, with no negatives, which is never the case, is it?
I suggested that you look for another job with your preferred working hours, and you wrote: “It’s not that simple… I am a bit scared of leaving the company.. starting new again. It’s too risky for me right now, I do not have family support at least financially“-it’s never that simple because there is no such thing (that I know about) as a perfect job. So there are always negatives. Question is: which possibility has the kinds of negatives that you can successfully manage?
In your current situation, here are some possibilities: (1) stop supporting your family financially…? That will ease your stress. (2) take on the new job for a short period of time, letting the company know of your intent, so to evaluate how you manage the new hours, (3) start new again, but in a wiser way..?
No doubt that no possibility is problem free, there will always be negatives. But if you evaluate the positives and negatives with a calm, resourceful mental attitude, you will do better than otherwise.
anita
anitaParticipantDear Ben:
I want to understand the story of your relationship with this guy better, so I will re-read your original post and retell your story with quotes and my personal thoughts about your story (it helps me process information when I do that): back in 2018, five years ago, in Brazil, in the duration of two days, this guy caught your eye. You were attracted to him. “He was deeply into history, old things, old music, and showed me all his old books with great enthusiasm… I was shy around him“- he was expressive, extroverted perhaps, enthusiastic; you were introverted, shy. Extroversion/ emotional expressiveness can be very attractive to the introverted/ emotionally suppressive.
Away from Brazil, back in England, for 3 years “I had never stopped having a bit of a thing for him, always a flutter in the chest when he liked a post of mine“.
Back to Brazil in 2022, you met him a second time on a Thursday night, just the two of you by the beach: “I, in a way, fall for him again, with no breath, nervous and anxious in his presence“. The two of you took off all your clothes and walked into the water, “skinny dipping in the moonlight!” (this description is made for a movie). You met his boyfriend the next day, and the visit ended on Sunday.
You keep in touch with him long-distance, having “‘teas’ together, a nice little video call talking about things… He mentions the relationship with his boyfriend is plagued by arguments, fights and a lack of trust… I sympathize a little, my relationship with another guy, though not as committed, is also a little topsy-turvy“. He flirts with you long-distance, and you booked a trip to Brazil to see him, in-person- a 3rd time.
The 3rd visit takes place in May 2023: “We make out a bit on the first night and I feel great to finally kiss him and feel his body after so long. I could go home and be satisfied“- not expecting.. or wanting more, not only because he has a boyfriend (I am thinking) but perhaps because it is easier this way: to not be involved in a serious, ongoing, real-life relationship. Something lovely and of a short, trouble-free duration has its advantages.
“We spend a lot of time together… and talk about everything… One night he says ‘I think I love you’… We continue… slowly getting more intimate and the worst of all, making plans together“- worst of all because plans will complicate and spoil this easy, simple love story?
“I say ‘well, maybe after all, we’re just like ships passing in the night’“- two ships that passed each other in the night, watching the physical distance grow and grow, are not going to collide and go under.
“One day I walk out of the apartment because he was on the phone with his boyfriend, and when I return he is crying, crestfallen, begging me to stay and not to leave him again. I don’t push him to leave his boyfriend and I don’t know why, perhaps as I don’t feel he owes me anything and I am just happy to be with him“- perhaps the why is fear of a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship.
“The trip comes to an end… I get a job I had applied for when I was out there and weirdly it seems like it all makes sense, that I will earn money, save money and support him so that he can leave his boyfriend. I amaze myself at my commitment to this, no one has stirred up such resolve within me before“- this is the climactic point of the story as I read it: your move toward making this relationship an ongoing, committed real-life relationship.
“We videocall everyday, the plans continue, are re-affirmed. He plans to visit and spend 2 months here in his holidays to meet my family… His boyfriend announces he will visit him. I naturally feel this is a bit too much to simply ‘let’ happen and that he needs to break up with him. He says he will do it while he’s visiting as that’s ‘kinder’. I tell him if he wants to prove all his beautiful words right, he has an opportunity to prove them so now“- this is you, the shy guy, fighting for a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship with him. I am impressed and moved.
“I start to realise he won’t… I call him, he says he is confused and doesn’t know why he can’t break up with his boyfriend… He says loving me is easy“- easy for as long as it is.. not a difficult, real-life, ongoing, committed relationship.
“I tell him he can only love me or him. He calls back the next day and says he can’t do it, and shouldn’t have said all of that if he wasn’t prepared to finally break up“- you fought for a relationship with him. You lost, but not without trying.
“I don’t know how to feel. A love that never was? A love that struck at the wrong time? A mere fling? A romance? I don’t know if I was a real sucker there or it was simply wrong time wrong place. Gosh ! A part of me still wants some far off possibility that maybe one day he will be available and I can love him. Another part is truly, deeply sad and feels an enormous loss.“-
– first, I am sorry for your loss. I wish that this story was different: that he was not involved with another man, at least not after you and him got romantically and sexually involved, and I wished this would have turned into a real-life, ongoing, committed relationship between the two of you. I think that it was a beginning of a love story, but only a beginning, sort of, like a tease of a love story, a taste of it.
What do you think about my understanding here, as it developed? (please take your time to answer this question, if you choose to answer it, of course).
anita
anitaParticipantDear Ben:
Oh, a different guy then. Are you familiar with the term limerence, and do you think that the topic of limerence vs love, which I brought up above, applies to you in regard to your romantic relationships, most recent and prior?
anita
anitaParticipantDear Ben:
Your first thread- where we communicated extensively over 7 pages)- almost five years ago, was about the same guy you shared about in this thread. Back on Oct 10, 2018, you started your thread with: “I had a long term relationship with a lovely guy. But various issues, relational, geographical, visa-related etc. kept us apart. To a certain extent maturity did too, and a fear of committing. We had met just a couple times, but had strong feelings that were more than just ‘a fling’ or a ‘short-time’ thing”.
As I read your original post almost five years later, the first words that came to my mind were something like.. what a lovely love story. Later the term limerence and limerent object replaced my first thought.
Limerence, dictionary: “The state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one’s feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.”
From Wikipedia, on Limerence: “an involuntary potentially inspiring state of adoration and attachment to a limerent object (LO) involving intrusive and obsessive thoughts, feelings and behaviors from euphoria to despair, contingent on perceived emotional reciprocation”.
What do you think about the term in regard to what this guy means to you?
anita
anitaParticipantDear Caroline:
“It’s not that simple“- since it is complicated, I will review your first 6- page thread (Is my friend abusing me?) from Sept 28- Dec 24, 2022, a thread where we communicated extensively (We ended the thread with wishing each other Merry Christmas).
You shared almost a year ago about a friend/ co worker: “He has this habit of talking a lot and very long… He can talk for… an hour or hour and a half… without taking any pause… He tells me everything… every detail… he again started talking about his bike, what repairs he did, exactly what, where, what day it happened, what he ate for breakfast that day, what he wore, that kind of details… it’s too much, too long… It’s just overwhelming… he had anger issues when he was just being angry all the time and projected this on me… I was always very polite, listening patiently… Lately I got really tired with this and a bit angry… I was tired of listening to this… I am working home office, he and only one coworker are in the office) I feel it is a trap that I fell into“-
-Notice you used the word trap in context of your workplace back then. Fast forward a year, you shared about another trap, one you are currently afraid to fall into. This one is also in the context of work. I wrote to you only yesterday: “visualizing the job, you felt trapped, so, you got scared and you catastrophized the envisioned job situation, seeing it as way worse than it would be… Is this what happened?” You answered: “yes.. I think so“.
The co-worker a year ago talked way too much, projected his anger into you, and bullied you. Your Emotional Response was to feel overwhelmed and angry, but your Expressed Response was: “I was always very polite, listening patiently“. You didn’t assert yourself, didn’t initiate active solutions to the problem, but instead, you displayed Learned Helplessness.
bing. com: “Learned helplessness is a psychological state of passivity and powerlessness. It occurs when someone repeatedly faces uncontrollable, stressful situations, then does not exercise control when it becomes available. A person assumes that nothing is possible.. to change or alter the situation.. People that struggle with learned helplessness tend to complain a lot, feeling overwhelmed and incapable”.
Learned helplessness is a condition that often starts in childhood, as it did in my case: I was repeatedly abused by my mother, all my efforts to avoid and prevent it failed, so I concluded that there was nothing I can do when bad things happen. Fast forward, whenever I found myself in a problematic situation, I froze, didn’t feel capable of solving problems, catastrophized the situation, kept my growing stress inside for as long as I was able to endure it, felt like a trapped animal, getting more and more stressed and then, way too stressed to endure it any longer, I either exploded or I just RAN, left, was gone.
Back to your first thread, you wrote back in Sept last year: “He usually intimidates and bullies me. I regret I put up with this all these months and did not stand up for myself and now it became a trap I need to get out of“- this is learned helplessness. I am surprised that I didn’t bring up the term in your first thread.
On Sept 30, 2022, I wrote to you what applies to your current situation: ” I think that objectively, the situation is not as bad as you feel that it is. You can undo the trap and set yourself free if and when you stand up for yourself and create a new reality at work”- standing up for yourself, asserting yourself in real-life is an essential part of overcoming learned helplessness.
Do you think that the term learned helplessness applies to your life experience?
anita
* I just checked for new activity on the forums and found your most recent two posts. Thank you for welcoming me back to the forums! I will wait for your reply to the above.
anitaParticipantIt just occurred to me (as I went back to bed, thinking that- if it is night time where you are at you may not be relaxed enough to sleep) that it doesn’t have to be that complicated: if there are jobs available to you in your preferred hours of the day, then refuse this job and go for a job in your preferred hours. (I will be back to the computer in about eight hours).
anita
anitaParticipantDear Caroline: I will be able to reply to you Fri morning, in about eight hours from now/
anita
anitaParticipantDear Caroline:
You are welcome.
“Do you think I see it way worse than it would be?“- yes, I do.
“Is it not that bad as I imagine it?“- no, it is not as bad as you imagine it. In a calm, positive state of mind, you will be able to imagine it differently: seeing opportunities and possibilities you didn’t see when panicking.
“This whole idea of changing job exhausts me. I hate it about myself!“- self-hate is exhausting and otherwise bad for your health! Love yourself instead, be kind to yourself and your life will be better for it in every way.
anita
anitaParticipantDear Caroline:
“I feel really stupid for telling one day I want to do it and the other day feeling panic and being scared. What is wrong with me“- visualizing the job, you felt trapped, so, you got scared and you catastrophized the envisioned job situation, seeing it as way worse than it would be, or could be.. seeing it as something horrible.
This increased your fear: you panicked and you want to escape the envisioned trap as quickly as possible. Is this what happened?
anita
anitaParticipantDear Stacy:
I hope that you are okay this Thursday afternoon. My thoughts below are for you to evaluate as true to you (and/ or him), or untrue, thoughts for you to accept or reject:
“He has never had a real relationship/girlfriend until me, all his others were failed situationships and hookups“- you were, or hoped you were, a FIRST in his life, someone SPECIAL. That was something you needed to feel, something you didn’t feel growing up. A craving of an unloved child.
“He expressed on many occasions how thankful he was and lucky to have me in his life because he had never before met someone so loving and accepting of him“- you felt positively special in his life, a first, and what made you special? being “so loving and accepting of him“- something that you did not experience growing up; something he didn’t either.
You were invested in accepting him just the way he is, lovingly- almost unconditionally- so to maintain your specialness in his life. When that feeling was taken away from you (when he kind-of broke up with you), you felt very badly and you were willing to fight to get this feeling back. You chased him for it: “Two days later, after maybe 3 hours of sleep in total and no solid food, I couldn’t take it anymore and I reached out to him to apologize… I then asked him if there were any chance to fix us… I told him I’d still like to be in his life if he were open to that“.
And he did (temporarily) give you that feeling back when he “said he honestly didn’t know what he would do without me in his life and that I was his best friend“- Special: not only a friend, a good friend, but BEST friend.
Continued quote from above: “He thanked me so much for showing him he was capable and worthy of love and that he was eternally grateful for me for showing him all of this“- a little girl’s dream, when growing up unloved, is to make her parents capable of loving her, to make herself worthy of their love. He made your dream come true by proxy (him being a substitute for an unloving parent)- although temporarily.
2nd post: “I’m just so confused because I saw a person who… appreciated our deep connection, something he said he never thought he could have“- as I read this, I “hear” a little girl Stacy saying something like: I thought that I was finally Special enough/ worthy enough for someone to have a deep connection with me.
Continued from above: “He told me at the beginning that he had so much love to give and was so ready to give it to someone (who’d) finally make his life have meaning over hookups and surface level conversations“- I hear a little girl Stacy saying something like: I didn’t give meaning to my parents’ lives, therefore, they didn’t have love to give me, only surface level interactions.
Continued: “I had hoped that my love and care would have been enough for him and we could help heal parts of each other. He was healing me by never shaming me for coming to him with insecurities. Until… he gave up“- little girl Stacy did her best to love and care for her parents, hoping that they will love her back. But they didn’t. And maybe they shamed her. Little girl Stacy saw herself in this boyfriend, seeing the same need he had to be deeply loved for the first time.
“His parents are both very successful and retired psychologists with PhDs… I was born and am still poverty level, he was born upper middle class“- reads like you were both born into emotionally poverty… a lower-class type of (non) love.
“I feel like a blip on his map of grand adventures. I know some of these things are chips on my shoulders from childhood insecurities playing out“- growing up un-special, a blip on your parents’ map..?
“I grew up in a drug filled home“- drug filled, not love filled.
Back to your recent experience: “A day after this… I go looking for the Tik Tok person’s profile again…. Sure enough, this person is big. They have (this one person has) a Patreon, they have a massive following on all platforms.. they are his walking fantasy.. their talent is really impressive.. Yeah, I’m threatened“- this one person, special on Tik Tok, kinky on Tik Tok, threatened to take your Special away. And you were willing to compete with her, to fight for your Special: “I told him that I COULD be open to this kink… I just needed some more time“.
“What is true for me is that despite all of this, I love him so much and this has been the best and I THOUGHT most open and mature relationship I’ve ever had“- I think that in this relationship you projected yourself into him (seeing yourself in him) more than in previous relationships, and therefore, at times, you felt Special more than ever before…?
“Apparently I broke him, or maybe it had nothing to do with me“- you definitely did not break him. His brokenness- as yours- (as mine) happened before you came into his life, way before.
“If I knew this guy was just leading me on this whole time“- I do not believe that he was leading you on the whole time. Sometimes he did, but often he didn’t. What led you on, I believe, is that he told you at times just what you desperately needed to hear for a long, long time: that you are uniquely special in his life and that he is ready to love the one special person in his life.
“Do I give up all hope for the future of us? Or do I take these SEEMINGLY serious sexual issues to heart and not try to hold on?“- If I was you, the way I understand you, him and the situation, I would undo my projection into him. I’d grow to understand that with all the similarities considered, he is not even close to being like you.
You are both thirsty for love but you went about trying to quench that thirst directly by loving him thoroughly, unconditionally, and exclusively, the way you wished that you would be loved. His way has been mostly to distract himself from this thirst for love via kinky sexual fantasies, porn and thirst traps. He is trying to quench his sexual fantasies, not his quench for love. The way I see it, if you try to quench his sexual fantasies, you would be part of his distraction, that would be all.
What do you think/ feel?
anita
anitaParticipantDear Stacy:
You are welcome. Having read all that you shared about him, I have this visual: he has been caught in between the Dark Side and the Light Side (Star Wars). Being that you are from the light side (you are definitely a good person), you brought light into his mind and heart, encouraging the part of him that wanted to be a good person (“He overextends himself a lot for people. ‘I just want to be a good employee’ or ‘I just want to be a good person’ and ‘I just want to be the best boyfriend I can for you’ are all regular phrases I heard from him.“).
But the dark side kept calling him and pulling him away from the light/ from you and back into the dark side: porn, sexual obsessions and compulsions, the Tik Tok posts (“The stuff that this Tik Tok coworker posts is definitely too sexual and dark for me“).
“I worry I wasn’t enough to keep him from straying away“- you don’t have enough power to keep him from straying away into the dark side.
“I totally agree that shame seems to be ruling and ruining his life“- if he was committed to the light side, to being and becoming a good person, he would confront his shame, figure out what it’s about, and change the behaviors that he himself considers shameful. But if his shame is too great or too vague, he keeps doing what is shaming him, experiencing a mix of joy and shame, both.
“I saw a completely different side to him this entire relationship“- you saw the light side in him.. or am I getting carried away with the visual?
anita
anitaParticipant* I apologize, I meant Dear Stacy (I read your reply in Andrea’s thread and confused the names)
anitaParticipantDear Andrea:
First, what you shared, second: my input:
You (31) shared that before your most recent relationship, you had several relationships, one that lasted 4 years. Your most recent boyfriend (31), or ex-boyfriend, “has never had a real relationship/girlfriend until me, all his others were failed relationships and hookups“. He had “a two months long situationship 2 months before meeting me“, one in which he was cheated on several times and “he admitted about 5 months in that he had a very shameful f****boy past“.
* “‘f***’ is a young man who sleeps with women without any intention of having a relationship with them or perhaps even walking them to the door post-sex. He’s a womanizer, an especially callous one, as well as kind of a loser.”(jezebel. com)
During your almost 1-year relationship, the two of you had jobs, but “both stuck living back home with family in bad financial positions“, living two hours apart. You met 1-3 times per month, spending a couple of days together each meeting.
He has been professionally diagnosed with ADHD and depression, on medications. He had therapy and so did you. You therapy, you were told that you have an Anxious Attachment Style and that you are codependent.
You were dissatisfied with the frequency of your phone/ online contact in between meetings, and with the fact that you initiated most of those. When on the phone, you usually vented about your day or about “something he had done that was worrying me. Relationship check ins were happening probably too often“.
Early in the relationship (about Aug 2022) you shared with him that you are monogamous and “vanilla and not into BDSM or anything too kinky“, but in April 2023, “he tells me he wants me to try getting aggressive with him and slapping him, also kind of yelling at him that he’s a loser, etc. Basically a shame kink situation“. You were afraid it meant that he was getting bored with you, but you declined his suggestion.
About 2 weeks ago, Aug 2023, you found out that he was out late with a co-worker at a restaurant and that during the entire time you dated him, (having discussed your very hurt feelings around a boyfriend liking girls in bikinis online, and him saying that he doesn’t do that), “he had been liking all her (the co-worker’s) bikini photos… the entire time he had been dating me”. He “told me he messed up, he admitted and took accountability for letting me down and he felt a lot of shame and disappointment in himself“, and he “admitted he has wandering eyes and is falling for these photos…“, and the two of you broke up (“I said, ‘Umm. What? Are you breaking up with me?’ He says, ‘Yeah, I guess so.‘). There has been a back and forth communication on the breakup matter. You tried to bargain with him (“I asked him if it would help if I could work on moving closer. He rejected it with frustration“).
Two days after the breakup, “after maybe 3 hours of sleep in total and no solid food, I couldn’t take it anymore and I reached out to him to apologize for all of the times my past trauma triggered me and I projected insecurities onto him. I took ownership for being too hard on him sometimes and felt a lot of shame about it. I then asked him if there were any chance to fix us if he even wanted to. He responded and apologized as well. He told me that he panicked and shut down and doesn’t deal with confrontation and shame well so he just abruptly ended it… We both agreed our issues were triggering each other’s wounds and we were hitting a regressive period with our mental health. I told him I’d still like to be in his life if he were open to that.
“He agreed wholeheartedly and said he honestly didn’t know what he would do without me in his life and that I was his best friend. He thanked me so much for showing him he was capable and worthy of love and that he was eternally grateful for me for showing him all of this…
“A day later after some light conversation still here and there, he texted me that Sunday evening telling me he still felt a lot of shame and was really sad about what happened and that he was still so sorry… Over the span of our relationship, he’s mentioned hundreds of times different sexual fantasies… He told me he thought porn was detrimental to women and men in the end by consuming too much of it. The Tik Tok coworker dresses as many of his sexual fantasies... At this point, the communication is still happening… I wish I knew what exactly was ‘the past issues eating him up from the inside and falling apart’ over?… He told me when we first started dating that he was worried he couldn’t be 100 percent for me because he was still struggling with shame…
“What is true for me is that despite all of this, I love him so much and this has been the best and I THOUGHT most open and mature relationship I’ve ever had… Apparently I broke him, or maybe it had nothing to do with me. If I knew this guy was just leading me on this whole time…. Do I give up all hope for the future of us? Or do I take these SEEMINGLY serious sexual issues to heart and not try to hold on?”
My input: I boldfaced the word shame and shameful because it is the theme of his story, as I read it. It is his dominant feeling perhaps. Seems to me that his sexual fantasy, what you called “a shame kink situation“, is about his need to deal with this shame that is ruling him: “he tells me he wants me to try getting aggressive with him and slapping him, also kind of yelling at him that he’s a loser, etc.“- he wants his shame to be dealt with and resolved via this sexual exchange dynamic.
Putting this shame kink situation into practice will not resolve his shame, of course, but the fantasy holds hope or promise, for him, that his shame will be resolved. Maybe he hopes that if a woman slaps him and yells at him, yelling shameful words, it will scare the shame away and out of him. A sort of.. shame exorcism
“Apparently I broke him“- no, I don’t believe that you broke him. I think that shame broke him: “He told me when we first started dating that he was worried he couldn’t be 100 percent for me because he was still struggling with shame“- he was struggling with shame way before he met you, and not just shame but a lot of shame (“he texted me.. telling me.. he still felt a lot of shame“).
“ I wish I knew what exactly was ‘the past issues eating him up from the inside and falling apart’ over?“- the past issue that is eating him up from the inside, seems to me, is a lot of shame, aka neurotic shame, or toxic shame that took hold in his childhood.
The late author John Bradshaw wrote a book titled Healing the shame that binds you. Here is a quote regarding the book from john bradshaw. com: “In it, he shows how unhealthy toxic shame is the core component of our compulsions including, codependency, lying, addiction, and the drive to super-achieve or underachieve. This toxic shame, most often experienced in childhood, results in the breakdown of our self-esteem.. (and) an inability to move forward and form lasting intimate relationships in our lives”.
There is much more that I can say after studying your thread for a few hours by now, but I am running out of time today. If you would like- and please let me know- we can have a conversation about all of this. I will be back to the computer by tomorrow (Thursday).
anita
anitaParticipantDear Peace:
“According to my sister, if *blah blah blah)… my sister, to whom I had given money for a bribe, suddenly told me that (blah blah blah)… she treats me poorly and thinks (blah blah blah)… They might think that (blah blah blah).. That’s why my eldest sister guilt-tripped me by saying (blah blah blah)…they believe (blah blah blah)… They think (blah blah blah), and because I live in Europe, they think (blah blah blah)“-
– it doesn’t matter to me what your sisters think, say and believe because they are dishonestly manipulative, rude and exploitive. I have no respect for them. If any one of them ever sincerely apologizes to you and never again asks you for money, if they re-evaluate and change their behaviors, then I will care about what they think, say and believe.
“Maybe they’re worried that their investments in me would go to waste if I get married or have my own children. What do you think?“- like I said, I don’t care about what dishonest, exploitive people worry about. If they change their ways and become decent people, I will then care about what their worries.
“I’m no longer loyal to them… They’re not worth my loyalty, love, care, or respect“- good thing. So, next time you think about what they are thinking, or you remember what they told you, replace their words with… blah blah blah.
“They let me down and disrespected me, like they were toying with my emotions. They kept playing mind games until I decided to distance myself from them“- distance yourself from them more.
“What made her think she has that power or right to talk to me in that tone?“- because she is exploitive of her own youngest sister. She is not a nice, decent person.
“Am I still as foolish as they think I am?“- not if you don’t make yourself available to be exploited anymore.
About money, you wrote yesterday: “When I calculate all the money I sent home in just one year, it’s almost more than 7000 euros. And I still haven’t repaid the money I owe them, which is almost 8500 euros“- this is just in one year. But let’s say you paid back over the years a total of seven thousand euros. Consider then the 1,500 euros left a small financial compensation for the pain-and-suffering caused to you by your sisters.
anita
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