Dear Seaturtle:

I can complete my reply this evening, so here it is:

“I mentioned a fear of being/becoming a narcissist. I believe both my parents are on this spectrum“, Seaturtle, Oct 11, 2023).

No wonder you weren’t seen growing up, and no wonder most recently, in regard to talking to K about yourself, at a certain point on, you felt that you were making things too much about yourself. Talking about yourself  is like leaving your shoes by the door, or dishes in the sink, or shoes downstairs, and being reprimanded for it. The “house cleaning” sessions were really about cleaning, or removing any expression of you from his house.

Both parents on the narcissistic spectrum, the daughter is not SEEN. A strong need to be seen was understandably born in childhood and adolescence.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

In regard to K: “as I would express myself..  I would start to feel like I was making things too much about myself... l like I am being selfish… I feel like I am oversharing, or over-burdening him” (Sept 15 & 18, 2024)

In regard to your father: “I left any trace of myself in ‘his’ house, he would get upset..  list all the ways I had exemplified being ‘ungrateful’ at his house… how I didn’t think about him” (Oct 11, 2023).

Craving to express yourself, to comfortably leave traces of yourself for others to see and hear, on one hand; feeling selfish when expressing yourself, on the other hand. I am reminded when you had your roommate/ friends at your father’s house not long ago, for a vacation, how you left no traces of yourself in his house before leaving.

It’s a conflict within you. I will write more tomorrow. You are welcome to add a post before I return to the computer.

anita

Dear John:

“Every person has an inexhaustible creative and innovative energy. We can mobilize this energy in order to grow… Daoist saying: ‘When you are ‘sick’, do not seek a cure. Find your centre (Hara) and you will be healed.’…

“Practicing Hara breathing… With your mouth closed, breathe in, only using the muscles of your lower abdomen, gently pushing and breathing out. With each inhalation feel your abdomen filling and expanding – like a balloon…  Gradually slow down your breathing, allowing an ever-longer interval of time after each exhalation and before the next inhalation”.

(End of Quotes). The boldfaced above is very meaningful to me, and the Hara breathing- I will practice it. Thank you.

anita

Dear Taylor:

I read all the posts in your thread, and now, I will re-read from the beginning and add my thoughts.

1st post: “When dating… I tend to chase them and help them with their problems“- you chase them to help them. So, they are sort of.. running or drifting away from you, or you perceive that they are.

“In the latest case, I had been dating a guy for about 2 months. I remember exactly the moment when the energy between us changed“- changed into a running away/ chasing energy..?

“We had a great date where he cooked me dinner and afterwards told me how much he appreciates me and likes spending time with me… and then suddenly his communication became very flat and much more sparse… (he) continued to become more distant. I asked him about camping and he said he had forgotten about other plans, and couldn’t go“- it seems to me that you overestimated how close he felt to you when he cooked dinner for you and told you what he told you. Maybe in your mind, you rushed that extent of closeness and felt that it was much more than it was. And then, after the..  greater (in your mind) than great date, when his words and actions ceased to appear as great, it felt as if he was distant, while in reality, it may have been that he felt a bit close during dinner, then less close, as in normal fluctuations of closeness.

“We agreed to see each other that Thursday… and he bailed last minute citing work stress. I asked him if I could help“- chase him to help him.

“I started to feel very anxious, thinking I did something wrong to drive him away… instead of… continuing to wait it out at the increasing cost of my own mental health (what I normally do), I decided to go to the opposite direction. I asked him to call me when he was ready, and when we talked I told him that it makes me feel like he’s not interested when he bails on plans“- thing is, he really is not interested when he bails on plans, it’s not open to interpretation. Seems like you thought that maybe he was interested in you but failed to express it by committing to get-together plans.

“he was cold and shut down, and I told him that I would rather be friends“- chasing a cold-and-shut-down person for friendship? Seems like leaving him alone would be a more of an appropriate response.

“I didn’t really mean to end things in that conversation… he was understandably closed off at first since I had ended things“- it seems like the great things you imagined (the extent of closeness that wasn’t there) weren’t there to maintain or to end.

“However communication increased on both sides and we ended up talking on the phone for 2 hours and he then initiated sexting… then of course, the same pattern came again and he ended up never responding when I asked to hang out“- seems like his behavior fits the normal fluctuations of a man who is interested in a woman a bit, but not much.

“This time, I decided to try yet another way to break the pattern which was to be completely honest. I told him that I get anxious when I feel like connection is inconsistent and that I need reassurance that he’s still interested… I apologized and acknowledged that I was reactive… it’s been 2 days and he hasn’t responded“- you talked to him as if there’s been a long-term relationship with him going on, years-long. What you told him was probably too much/ too heavy for him.

“He was attentive and solid and responsive“- at one time he was, during that great date, maybe at other times, and in your mind, you rushed this and saw it to mean much more than it meant.

2nd post: “My mom is a very anxious person and I’d describe her as codependent (for lack of a better term, I don’t want to paint her in a negative way). She has described her relationship with my dad as him ‘saving’ her. She sought approval from her abusive father despite him rejecting her over and over, literally until the day he died“- she chased her father to save her, but he didn’t. Her husband “saved” her, but she needed more saving, and kept chasing her father to save her. Her little girl thinks something like (maybe): I will save you, Mom, I will! 

But mom doesn’t see her daughter as savior, even though daughter cares more than anyone. So, daughter chases mother: I will help you! I will save you! Please let me!

And every time daughter experiences some success, something she said or did made mom feel good, mom looks at daughter with loving, grateful eyes.. daughter imagines she has helped her mother a lot (much more than just a bit, temporarily).

Love-starved, closeness-starved daughter waited alone and lonely for so long, that a bit of closeness feels heavenly, and she thinks something like: from now on, everything will be wonderful!  But closeness evaporates sooner than later (because mother was not helped for long), and daughter is devastated. Again.

3rd post: “Only after I sensed him distancing did I start thinking about the relationship a lot and craving more closeness. This is consistent with my pattern“- a pattern of chasing mother for closeness.

4th post: “Yes I do think that accurately describes the pattern! I am always thinking about how I can make the men I date comfortable and happy enough to eventually support my needs. This is also I think why I used to stay in relationships too long, waiting“- Waiting.

“The one guy I felt this pattern with a few years ago, I ended things amicably after about 3 months and he is now one of my absolute dearest friends. Once the expectation of a romantic relationship is gone, I can appreciate people for the things they offer“- once the chasing and waiting are gone..

“when you recognized the source of your pattern, what work did you do to make peace with it?“- I will answer this in regard to parts of the patterns that I believe I shared with you: I was surprised to hear my therapist back in 2011 telling me something like: you are chasing your mother! I was surprised because I’ve been so angry at her for so long, that I don’t remember wanting closeness with her. All that I remembered was wanting to get away from her. I had no idea that I was Chasing and Waiting for her to.. finally reciprocate my love for her.

And I imagined that she loved me so much that she couldn’t live without me, that I was so important to her. I wasn’t able to see reality for the longest time. I wasn’t able to see that I was not important to her, not as a person. This is why she looked up to others for some kind of help, never to me. Others were important to her. Not me.

I have no contact with her since sometime in 2013 (last time I talked to her on the phone). It took me years after the no-contact to stop chasing and waiting for her. So deep is a girl’s love and need for her mother. It starts so early, when the brain is developing.. before we have words.. so early that we forget.

I finally stopped chasing and waiting for what was never there for me.  I don’t chase and wait for anyone- romantically or otherwise- to.. redo my mother, so to speak.

5th post: “I am in therapy and boundaries is an area I’m working on a ton. One of those boundaries is not participating in relationships that don’t serve me… in past relationships I have stuck around for many years feeling in limbo with inconsistent connection. Or perhaps.. it doesn’t really matter what I decide on any given relationship – if I can’t heal myself a relationship won’t feel good regardless“- regarding the inconsistent connections, like I suggested earlier, it may be that in your mind (because of chasing and waiting for too long), you exaggerate the closeness, and then the distancing (part of normal closeness- distancing fluctuations) feel too intensely, intolerable.

I would look in therapy into your past and current relationship with your mother, and the one with your father, if I was you. That’s were patterns are born.

anita

Dear Taylor:

I will soon be away from the computer, so I will reply further by Wed morning (it’s Tues morning here)

anita

Dear Taylor:

You are very welcome and thank you for your empathy and for referring to me as amazing (feels good reading it).

“On the surface my relationship with my mom looks quite different but the more I think about it the more I wonder if there are underlying similarities. My mom is a very anxious person… She sought approval from her abusive father despite him rejecting her over and over, literally until the day he died. Often I think this must be part of where my issues come from, but I can’t recall any specific emotional trauma directly in my relationship with either of my parents“- my understanding: a very anxious mother is not an available mother, not in the way a child needs her to be. A child needs a calm, confident mother, because that’s what it takes to soothe a child wo is scared or in distress. A mother who is very anxious is distracted, unable to focus on and adequately attend to her child.

When the mother is very anxious, the child focuses on the mother, on what she needs, all empathy is with her, feeling her distress, and therefore, the child is deprived from a carefree childhood, not being free to explore and develop emotionally- socially.

It is her father who rejected her, but because your empathy for her, it’s if he rejected you.. sort of, rejected by proxy:

Her specific emotional trauma + your empathy for her => Her emotional trauma is your emotional trauma (not directly).

(I am using the boldface feature selectively in the following quote): “I have had this pattern in romantic relationships since high school – my first boyfriend cheated on me after 3 years together, my second boyfriend was a verbally abusive situationship in college, and my third boyfriend was a 6 year relationship where we lived together and he blindsided me with a breakup after his parents’ divorce. These experiences were quite traumatic for me but I have read that usually these unhealthy patterns start with childhood, not with adult relationships. I guess maybe I’m still blocked in figuring this out and I don’t really know the steps to get there.”-

– I boldfaced the above because it is correct, but not only when it comes to your unhealthy patterns, but also when it comes to the men’s unhealthy patterns. There is a lot of unhealthy going around, unhealthy on top of unhealthy, so it gets complicated when it comes to figuring out what happened in each one of the three relationships you mentioned.

As far as your unhealthy patterns, I think you described it well in your original post: “I tend to chase them and help them with their problems (without really feeling like my emotional needs are being met)“-

– focusing on your mother’s problems, on her anxiety, on her need to be calm (so that she can finally be calm for you, so that she can be there for you in the ways you need her to be)=> focusing on the men’s  problems, on their needs (so that they can be there for you in the ways you need them to be).

It’s sort of like postponing your needs until you meet her/ the men’s needs first, so to make them capable of meeting your needs. Is this another way to describe the pattern?

anita

Dear Taylor2992:

“I’m trying to figure out how to stop repeating that pattern. When dating, I usually end up feeling attracted to guys who later stop putting in effort. I tend to chase them and help them with their problems (without really feeling like my emotional needs are being met) for a varying amount of time until I get fed up and end the relationship“- reads like a repeat of a child-parent pattern where the unattended, neglected child chases the inattentive, otherwise engaged parent, trying to solve the parent’s problems, so that problems solved, the parent will finally be able and willing to attend to the child.

That was my pattern in regard to my mother. It was a tormenting experience, the one with my mother, and although I chased her for a positive kind of attention, I was also angry at her (for the negative attention I received) and wanted her out of my life. This childhood/ adolescent experience led to a pattern in adulthood where I quickly got fed up with people and ended (very short) relationships with people.

“I had been dating a guy for about 2 months. I remember exactly the moment when the energy between us changed. nothing specific happened but we had a great date where he cooked me dinner and afterwards told me how much he appreciates me and likes spending time with me… and then suddenly his communication became very flat and much more sparse… I asked him if everything was ok and he said he was stressed about work… I started to feel very anxious, thinking I did something wrong to drive him away“- reads like he lost interest because of stress at work or for some other reason. The thought that you did something wrong to drive him away is similar to how a child reacts to a parent’s distancing/ rejection: I must have done something wrong!

“However communication increased on both sides and we ended up talking on the phone for 2 hours and he then initiated sexting. I asked him if he’d want to meet up when I was back… he ended up never responding… this time I decided to try yet another way to break the pattern which was to be completely honest. I told him that I get anxious when I feel like connection is inconsistent and that I need reassurance that he’s still interested. He said he is interested but that he was thrown off by me ending things… it’s been 2 days and he hasn’t responded“- reads to me that although you were honest with him, he was not honest with you when he told you that he is still interested (unless he meant that he is interested in occasional sexting or such). There is a saying, the proof is in the pudding, which to me means that there is no need for his words to indicate his lack of interest. His behavior is evidence enough.

“I’ve tried to follow my intuition and I’ve also tried to do counterintuitive things to see if it’s my intuition that’s tricking me, but all roads feel like they lead to the same outcome. I realize my behaviors in this instance were not perfect so maybe the answer is to just keep doing trial and error? I practice mindfulness and meditation, I try to sit in the discomfort and examine where this is all coming from (childhood, relationship with parents). I feel like I’ve made so much progress, but it’s demoralizing that the pattern continues to repeat in relationships. has anyone figured out a way to break their patterns?“- my thoughts: (1) unresolved anxiety-producing issues from childhood interfere with intuition. Ongoing fear (anxiety) interferes with all good things, (2) when unresolved issues from childhood are significant enough.. indeed, in adulthood, all roads feel like they lead to the same outcome, or as I say, we keep re-living our childhood emotional experience in adult circumstances, (3) trial and error works only after we adequately resolve childhood issues,

(4) Congratulations for practicing mindfulness and meditation, for sitting with the discomfort, for examining the origin of your patterns (childhood, relationship with parents), and for making so much progress!

Personal note: I remember how disappointed I used to feel when I though that I understood enough, healed enough, only to find myself in bad situations and feeling badly about myself.. yet again. It took a LOT of patience and finally, empathy for myself, to keep moving forward regardless.. to keep moving toward a healthier and healthier state of mind and life.

anita