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  • in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452386
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tee:

    First, to your post from yesterday:

    “I’m happy that you’re slowly realizing that your mother was a different person that what you’ve thought her to be.”-

    Yes she is. Part of me knew all along, but another part resisted the truth, rejected it, and therefore I remained conflicted and well.. sick.

    “And yes, covert narcissism is very tricky because the person seems humble and generous, as you said, when in fact that’s all a pretense, that’s all PR to maintain a certain public image.”-

    Perfectly said.  PR= Generous, real nature= Unwilling to share but feeling compelled to. This is why she complained to me about guests taking advantage of her right after they left, presenting them to me negatively (as bad people) while to their faces complimenting them, presenting them as good people. And by the way, when a guest declined an offer of food or gift, she pressured the guest to accept her offer until he/ she accepted it.

    PR= selfless, RL (Real Nature) = selfish; PR= warm, kind, friendly, RN= cold, rude, hostile; PR=shy, humble; RN=crude, bold, arrogant.

    “Yes, I agree with you that it (covert narcissism) is actually more toxic than overt narcissism because the person appears as if having low self-esteem, as if they were insecure, self-deprecating and needing help and reassurance. But then it turns out that if you want to help them, they actually reject it or dismiss it, and keep playing the victim.”-

    She complained a lot about having to clean after me/ others, but every time I cleaned she criticized me for not doing a thorough job, or for cleaning too soon after she did (as in.. insulting her cleaning), and she actually said that my efforts to clean are causing her more work because she had to redo my poor quality work. And then, she’d complain about how unfortunate she (best mother) was to have an inadequate daughter like me, while other mothers (bad mothers or far less good than her) were fortunate enough to have good, hard working, helpful daughters.

    She portrayed me as someone lazy who prefers to not extend myself physically, someone selfish and uncaring..  while also suggesting that my alleged selfishness and laziness  were a sign of future material success, saying  I’ll end up having maids who’ll do the cleaning for me. Coming to think about it, she repeatedly encouraged me to be different from her PR (selfless, very, very generous) and more in line with her RN (selfish, stingy).

    Currently, Tee, I am known to be a very hard working person (in regard to doing physical work). Someone said some time ago (and it stuck in my mind): “I never met anyone more hard working than Anita”. This point was expressed to me many times by multiple people in regard to my volunteer work in the last 4 years.. I was clearly hard working before that.

    “And with that, they manipulate and guilt-trip the people around them (those who love them and want them to be happy). And of course, the greatest victims are their children, because they truly want to see their parents happy, which with covert narcissists is mission impossible. 🙁”-

    Mission impossible. I like how you say things, Tee. Mission Impossible could be a catchy  title of a book on covert narcissistic mothers and their daughters. I know that this is what you experienced as well 🙁

    “Yeah, that’s pretty extraordinary. But you’ve explained how it got to that point: you needed to normalize your mother’s abuse, so to make it more bearable, so that you would be able to stay bonded to her (which was your survival need).

    “Lots of times children do it also because they don’t have a different reference point, they only know their own parents and their own family. They don’t know it’s not normal if the parent hits them or yells at them all the time.. they don’t know that abuse isn’t normal. And they also don’t know that they didn’t deserve it..”-

    This reminds me that when I tried to communicate with my sister in regard to being beaten by the mother, she told me: “You don’t know how bad (her friends’) mothers beat them”.. making it sound like our mother was good in comparison.

    “It’s a pity you couldn’t speak to your sister about it, but it’s also true that she was 6 years younger, so you wouldn’t even have been able to confide in her for quite a long time (because she was simply too small to understand), even if you wanted to. So you were in it alone, thinking it was normal 🙁”-

    I read this part after I wrote the above. The conversation I referred to above happened when she was a teenager or very young adult, I don’t remember.

    Another thing to remember, Tee, is that I didn’t feel like an older/ guiding  sister to her growing up. I had tics, felt like a freak, was socially isolated, lonely, while she was tic-less, very social and.. well, she definitely didn’t look up to me.

    “You describe it very well: her ‘kind and loving’ side was an act, and who you loved was an act. That wasn’t her true self, but her fake persona.

    “Her ‘love and kindness’ quickly disappeared when the guests left – that’s when she returned to her normal, abusive self, in which there was no concern for you and your needs: it was all about her and her needs. Me, me, me, as you said.. which is a typical narcissistic feature.”- Yes, I see this clearly now 🙏

    “I’m glad that you’re seeing it so clearly now, Anita, although it was somewhat of a rude awakening, realizing some pretty painful things about your mother. But that’s what’s necessary for our healing: we cannot heal while not knowing the truth, or knowing the truth half way. We need to know it all, so we can process it learn from it..

    “You’re doing a great job, Anita, I’m impressed by your realizations and connecting the dots very quickly! ❤️ ❤️”- I am finding myself smiling for the second time today, a big smile of contentment reading these words of encouragement (the first smile was at your phrasing of “Mission Impossible”, a phrasing I appreciated very much).

    I will reply to your recent post next.

    ❤️ 🙏 ❤️ 🙏 Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452383
    anita
    Participant

    Congratulations, me! How was it, the call? Did you talk about when you’d talk next?

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452372
    anita
    Participant

    WOW, Alessa! I don’t remember a more.. what’s the word.. more significant, meaningful, impactful message from you to me 🙏 🙏 🙏

    You wrote that she “Made sure you weren’t dark like her”- exactly! She “elevated” me by getting together with a Romanian (Eastern European) man so to elevate me from dark North African (Moroccan) thing to lighter skin European.

    My sister turned out looking European, small nose, light skin.. I look more like my mother: bigger nose, darker skin.

    “You were basically guaranteed to develop PTSD. ❤️”- yes, I was, no doubt. Thank you, Alessa!

    “Your pain MATTERS. Your feelings MATTER. You are IMPORTANT. ❤️ ❤️ ❤️”- Wow, Alessa.. Wow, Alessa. Thank you so much. I’ll reply further in the morning.

    🤍 Anita

    in reply to: Feeling Stuck #452370
    anita
    Participant

    Hi Mollie:

    Do you know why your friend’s dad took his own life 🙁?

    “my parents’ frustration at my low moments because they… they don’t like… they see… they worry..”-

    Too many “they”, “they” overpowering Mollie.

    “And therein lies the feeling of feeling pushed or forced”- pushed, forced, overpowered by “they”..?

    💚 Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452369
    anita
    Participant

    You are welcome, me.

    I am sorry they always shoot you down 🙁. Is there something you can tell them to make them stop?

    “why I didn’t say ‘I’ll text it to you, what’s your number'”.. you tell me why, me ..?

    🤍 Anita

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452360
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tee:

    I think I’ll reply further tonight or tomorrow morning.. This is an amazing time for me.. opening my eyes. Thank you so much for your.. well, amazing guidance. I very much hope that you’re feeling better, or soon will. You are my inspiration in more than one way. Your optimism and strength are inspiring to me!

    ❤️ 🙏 🙏 🙏 ❤️ Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452359
    anita
    Participant

    Dear me:

    Sincerely, I never thought of you as pathetic, not for a single moment, not in regard to how you come across in your threads, and not otherwise!

    “They spread to people I wanna have sex with every girl that talks to me, confuses the hell out of me because I’m not that way at all.”- it may be how THEY are and their projecting their thoughts, their motivations into you.

    Early 20s may be too young.. but she may be more mature or mentally healthier than a 40-year-old. I wouldn’t know..?

    🤍 Anita

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452358
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tee:

    As to your post from yesterday:

    Thank you for the belated Happy Thanksgiving 🙏

    “And what an amazing idea: to give yourself thanks for everything that you’ve done for your mother, for all the effort you’ve invested in trying to please her, make her happy, make her life less of a suffering.. it didn’t work, but not because of you, but because of her! However, you’ve tried, you did your best, you gave your all!

    “And you completely deserve praise and acknowledgment for your sincere, heart-felt attempts… Thank you, Anita, for your many, many efforts and all your hard work invested in helping this woman!!!”-

    🙏🙏🙏 No one has ever said this to me (other than myself in the post to you). Me thanking myself- a 1st. Another person (Tee) thanking me- a 1st.

    “Amen to that! 🙏 ❤️ Very well said!”- 🙏 ❤️

    “I hope you’re still feeling the enthusiasm and vigor of those words, and the acknowledgment, the self-validation, that you indeed did you best, while she was the ungrateful one. You were giving and giving, while she was rejecting, dismissing, criticizing… and remained bitter and unhappy throughout.”-

    I didn’t read these parts of your message until just now, processing it for the first time this morning.

    Seems like the messages I consistently received from her were a reversal of the truth, and reading what I just quoted you saying, is making it clear to me (another 1st) that I was the grateful one (for the food, toys, shelter, school supplies and anything else that was bought with her money), and it is SHE who WAS THE UNGATEFUL ONE: for the flowers I gave her, the little gifts prepared at school, real (failed) efforts to clean the apartment to her satisfaction, studying hard at school.. for listening to her endlessly venting.. for sharing with her what I read in psychology books, for giving her money.. for depriving myself of basics so to send her (or her way by sending it to my sister) as much money as possible, etc., etc.

    And she did indeed reject, dismiss and criticize all my offerings (except that one time when she expressed that she enjoyed the NTC trip)..

    * See above.. I am giving her credit for every little thing, like her one-time verbal appreciation, an acknowledgment that something I did made a positive difference for her, however temporarily.

    If she accepted, acknowledged and let me know that I gave her something valuable that made a positive difference for her, her Poor Me Act would have been endangered, an act she needed to maintain so to have the moral superiority to keep me enslaved through guilt and shame.

    I WAS GRATEFUL. SHE WAS UNGRATEFUL.

    “It occurs to me that you were the people-pleaser, or better say, Mother-pleaser: you did things against your will, things that were hurting you – only to please her, to see that satisfied smile of approval on her face:… She approved of you when you diminished, or almost annulled yourself. When she could control you completely. You gave her that. But she wasn’t satisfied nevertheless. Maybe for a brief moment she was, but not beyond that.”-

    And indeed this kind of people pleasing, diminishing and annulling myself became a way of life, an ingrained habit I carried with me. Another point.. I ask myself why she wasn’t satisfied with my self-annulment for long.. Because she needed to feel superior to me in terms of righteousness, which meant that she was invested in making me feel guilty and indebted to her. She didn’t want to reduce my debt to her (to make it up to her for all of my wrongs and failures, for being a “bad daughter”) in fear that the debt wouldn’t be as big as she wanted it to be.

    “And she perpetuated the lie that you’re bad, that you’re hurting her, while she was the one who was hurting you all along. Yes, narcissistic people are People of the Lie..”-

    I just asked Copilot about the book (I remember the title, not the content). Copilot: “Core themes- *Definition of Evil: Peck describes evil as the refusal to face one’s own moral failings. Instead of confronting their flaws, “people of the lie” project blame and attack others. * The Lie: The “lie” refers to self-deception and denial. Evil people construct false narratives to avoid responsibility… Peck’s central argument is that evil thrives in denial and dishonesty…

    “People of the Lie avoid confronting their moral failings because doing so would shatter the false self-image of perfection and righteousness they cling to. Instead, they use denial, deception, and projection to protect their fragile egos and maintain control over others… They destroy or diminish others to preserve their own sense of superiority.”-

    Fits perfectly.. and here’s the word “superiority” which I came up with above, before reading the input I just quoted.

    Continued: “Confronting moral failings requires honesty, humility, and courage. People of the Lie reject these qualities because they threaten the false identity they depend on. In protecting their illusion of goodness, they perpetuate harm and chaos in the lives of others.”

    Back to your words, Tee: “So, congratulations, Anita, for seeing through the Lie, for not believing her narrative anymore. Congratulations for seeing things clearly: who you are and who she is…”- thank you, dear Tee!!!

    “I’d like to comment on something very important that you said about empathy:… That’s an important realization: that your empathy was mixed with guilt. Because she was 1) portraying herself as the victim and 2) blaming you (among other people) for her misery. She made you feel guilty for her misery.

    “Plus, you wanted to free her from her misery even in instances in which she didn’t blame you, e.g. when you had guests and she would bitterly complain before and after their visit. She didn’t blame you for that, however you still wanted to help her, to ease her ‘suffering’.

    “But then she forbid you to talk to the guests about it (‘I will murder you!’), because she of course wanted to maintain her ‘kind and generous’ persona – someone who gives big, expensive gifts, and prepares intricate, lavish meals (I suppose).”-

    It never occurred to me, I don’t think, that her motivation was to maintain her persona, her ACT until just now.

    “Anyway, you tried to free her from her ‘misery’, when in fact it was all a farce. It was a self-inflicted ‘misery’, because no one was forcing her to give those expensive gifts and prepare complicated meals. It was her choice, which she then presented as some big sacrifice. She portrayed herself as the victim, the martyr, when it was actually her choice, and it served to maintain a certain public image.

    “You believed that she was indeed suffering, you believed that she was the victim – when in fact, it was an act. And then you blamed yourself for not being able to help her. When in fact she didn’t want to be helped – she enjoyed her martyr role.”-

    She.. enjoyed it? What kind of joy was it, for her? The joy of moral superiority..?

    “And it’s a great thing that you’re now freeing yourself from that guilt. And that you’re able to separate empathy for the person from feeling guilty for their suffering.

    “A good example of that would be your mother’s baldness: you can be sorry for your mother having such a handicap, because it is really a handicap and very unpleasant. However, you don’t need (or didn’t need to) to feel guilty about it and obliged to compensate her for it, because it’s not your fault and there isn’t even much you can do about it. You can simply empathize, but without feeling guilty or obliged to help.”-

    I do feel sorry for her being bald and for her childhood.. that’s empathy, yes. As long as I separate it from guilt, it’s okay to feel it. To feel it if I do, when I do.. but not to sink and drown in it. When I feel it, acknowledge it and exit it. Move on to something else. What do you think, Tee?

    “So yeah, empathy without guilt is a great concept – thanks for mentioning it, Anita. ❤️ When we empathize like that, we can simply ‘sit with the person’ in their pain, without necessarily doing anything. We may help of course if needed, but sometimes it’s enough if we simply offer a listening ear and validate their emotions. If they feel heard and validated.”-

    I’ll keep this in mind.

    “Good to hear that you had a pleasant Thanksgiving, and that you met some nice, interesting people 😊”- Anita the psychologist gave me her email address so to continue a conversation we started about Tourette’s being a result of trauma in childhood during the first 7 years of life, she said.

    I want to reread some of what I quoted you saying above and develop my thoughts further, later on. I want to respond to your most recent post next.

    ❤️ 🫶 ❤️ 🙏 Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452356
    anita
    Participant

    Dear me:

    I think that your most recent post is an opportunity to get to know you better. (I don’t know though if you want to be known better though 🙂.

    In case you don’t mind: so, some guys at work think that women who are into you are NOT into you? What kinds of fake rumors do they spread about you?

    “Despite how I sound in these threads, I’m the total opposite IRL.”- I am so curious to know more about “the total opposite IRL”..???

    🤍 Anita

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452355
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Tee:

    I am sorry to read the last part 🙁 and of course, I respect your preference to not talk about it at the moment. I just said a prayer for you (I recently started praying again). I hope you remain optimistic and that things get better 🙏

    When I read: “we cannot heal while not knowing the truth, or knowing the truth half way. We need to know it all, so we can process it learn from it..”, I thought I’ll share with you the first part of a post I wrote to you 3 days ago, late at night, but chose to not submit it because of the second part (which I will not include here):

    “The LIES- ANYTHING AT ALL OF WHAT SHE SAID THAT I CAN TRUST TO BE TRUE?

    Everything she said needs to be discarded because it’s too difficult to find a needle in a haystack.

    A Champion of the Lie.    Ah!!!    No problem lying, none whatsoever, no such ethical consideration.. not an issue.

    I think of you, Tee, as a champion for the truth, hence why I refer to you as “my hero”.             

    I am now a champion for the truth too!”

    Maybe I will share the rest of it at a later time.

    I am having a problem with the computer, so I’ll send this message before I lose it and then restart the computer and send another.

    🫶 ❤️ 🙏

    in reply to: Reconnecting- #452353
    anita
    Participant

    Hi Alessa 😊

    It’s okay that you didn’t check in yesterday. I noticed and thought to myself that you were busy (and indeed you were).

    The main reason I don’t like holidays is the food. I am anxious in regard to gaining weight. Had leftover cake and pie last evening though. It is interesting how satisfactory it can be to eat just a little dessert. I used to binge eat- large amounts. I am glad I haven’t done that in years. Still there’s anxiety about eating and body weight.

    I’m glad you’re feeling better today and hope the infection clears soon!

    🙏 ❤️ 🤍 Anita

    in reply to: A Personal Reckoning #452347
    anita
    Participant

    Continuing the above line of thinking-

    I am becoming clear about who my mother has been: on one hand- an act, a pretense, that of being good and loving and selfless and generous and friendly and normal; and on the other hand, the truth- extremely self-centered, unempathetic, not at all generous in intent, and too often, cruel, intending to harm and finding pleasure in it, a sadistic pleasure. And quite abnormal.

    The feeling of inflicting pain made her feel powerful, and powerful felt pleasurable.

    Her Act confused me for the longest time. Now I see it as an Act. And the real person.. nothing like the act.

    Her act- not at all threatening. Looked so normal and friendly. She looked and sounded like the safest person in the world. When she dropped the act, she was threatening, dangerous- threatening suicide or homicide, or grave injury or just shooting the most shaming words as in out of a cannon.

    So, that has been my mother.

    Now I know. I can see through the Act.

    The love I had for her was the love for an Act.

    The lovable child that she was/is, has been locked inside of her, inaccessible. Locked in, before I was born to her. I saw signals from her inner child but NO ACCESS.

    So, Strange.. not Seeing .. what was glaringly evident all along: that she had no love, no heart 4 me. Not for anyone.

    And the decades of waiting for her, all the efforts.. All were futile. Can’t get an unloving person (mother, in this case), to love (me). Can’t get water out of a rock (did I say it right?)

    She looked and sounded like a loving person (The Act in front of people); but she wasn’t when they were gone, when alone with me, and sometimes she revealed herself to others as well.

    But the ACT, it was an amazing act, she looked and sounded like a genuinely friendly, mentally healthy, outgoing.. normal person. A very convincing act.

    In between the acts all hell broke loose.

    More (and back to your recent post, Tee), in the morning.

    Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452346
    anita
    Participant

    Not focused now, will try to understand what you said in the morning and get back to you, me 🙂

    in reply to: Seeking clarity about a relationship #452344
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Going Through Life:

    Well, too much food on Thanksgiving, stuffing and pies and cakes and.. too much food (I don’t like this too-much part of the holiday 😢.)

    I bet you are out of bed by now, GTL.

    I am looking forward to the day you will tell me about a new love story in your life.. one beyond longing for, and missing someone who is not there (SS). Someone new, someone present, someone to love and be loved by you ❤️

    🤍 Anita

    in reply to: Feelings for co worker? #452343
    anita
    Participant

    By a few decades..??? That’s elderly women, isn’t it?

Viewing 15 posts - 121 through 135 (of 4,728 total)