Helcat commented:

I would also add that when it comes to enlightenment, my understanding is that most often it occurs when we die.

It is often suggested that practice is to prepare for this moment in death.

Oh? Then why bother practicing diligently during one’s life for the ultimate moment of one’s personal death when sudden realization of one’s true identity is most likely (and most often) to occur at the end of one’s lifetime?

I’m not suggesting that your understanding is erroneous, but then, who, in fact, would know?

Of all prior illuminates who have left the opened secret intact and have invested their lives’ work in keeping the knowledge alive and have documented all manner of provisional and direct teachings over the ages, I wonder why I have never heard such talk that sudden realization (that has ANY power at all to transform oneself and others) is most likely to occur when you’re dead.

I wonder who those would be who would be most likely to have often suggested that the great matter of life and death would most likely (and be generally understood by most to) occur after one’s life— or at least during one’s exact physical extirpation when the root of one’s life is pulled up by its stem. If so, perhaps the great matter of life and death should be called the great matter of death? After all, seeing the nature of one’s enlightening being is going to be experienced most often at that time anyway. Just saying~ when does the part about life come into the equation, hmmm?

When one takes note that the very existence of this website is claimed to exist in order to promote the APPLICATION of such transformational experience and sharing for the benefit of the living, I am tempted to ask, just when does one hope to apply the effective enlightening experience that one has sincerely prepared for during a lifetime of spiritual practice when it is “often” understood that such enlightenment generally occurs anyway at the moment of death?

As for the conjecture that such practice is “often suggested” to be effective preparation for the moment of one’s extinction, I would counter that it is not the moment of one’s death that one is preparing for, because, simply put— when you’re dead, it’s too late. Who exactly is experiencing enlightenment at the moment of death? The person? I assure you, there is no such a one. Therefore, who, in precise terms, applies the power of nonorigination at and beyond, both entering and returning through the boundary of no return? That would be the same one who applies its power in the midst of the karmic realm. Again, it is not the person. Authentic practice is that which allows the real to be expressed in enlightening activity by virtue of the person, yet not by the person who would depend on personal intent and power of relative influence. Buddhism calls such activity “subtle spiritual adaption. Who is this adaptive element?

The point of gradual enlightening practice is to somehow harmonize and align in resonance with true inconceivable reality by one’s very approach to life, in the midst of this dream (by virtue of this dream) in order to fuse the dual by its inherent transcendent essence naturally; whereby one eventually (by failing to entertain anticipatory consciousness), spontaneously finds oneself by inconceivable penetration into a realm that has never begun. Then, after seeing its absolute nature as no different than one’s perfectly nonoriginated selflessly aware self, to once again assume the created aspect and learn to apply the inherent knowledge of selfless awareness in the midst of the realm of delusional birth and death. Therefore sudden realization during one’s lifetime does not confer buddhahood. During such experience, one only realizes the one has always been thus without beginning, and that such is the same as neither before nor after, birth nor death, person nor existence, right nor wrong, good nor bad. Furthermore, just this is not different than the nature of life and death in the very midst of our own delusions.

Again, I am not suggesting that your observation is outrightly flawed, but I must clarify for you and for those who would care to get to the bottom of the great matter, that when it comes to enlightenment, nothing is gained by its realization during one’s life. How much less is gained by “…practice to prepare for this moment…” by one’s death?

One such as the OP has gone to the “other” side. To experience an undeniably authentic moment of selfless realization and then entertain many months of doubt and self-pity in its aftermath, and not once mentioning anything relative to setting to work right away to refine that experience… such is pure folly! I completely understand it though. Sudden realization is an inconceivably huge pill to swallow. Gautama Buddha spent years in the aftermath of his experience tempering the maturation of the true teaching of Mind’s real knowledge, but hardly anyone talks about that.

Please do not assume that enlightenment at the moment of one’s death is acceptably sufficient to authenticate its application of power and then be satisfied that such experience is in any way considered to be a satisfactory endeavor to keep the knowledge alive. It must be never overlooked that seeing potential in the midst of delusional existence not only does not depend on the sudden, it is to be practically applied both before AND after the sudden. Why doesn’t enlightening activity depend on sudden realization of the absolute nature of nonorigination? It is because the knowledge of true potential is already your own mind right now; this is why the buddha said that nothing whatsoever is gained by complete perfect enlightenment.

It is necessary to get to work right away. That enlightenment is the very scene before your eyes right now makes no whit of difference from the predicament that the OP is projecting. Before or after the sudden is one continuum. Who knew?

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by deci.

per the OP… who never responded to anyones’ posts~

After my awakening, I was kinda clueless what to do about the suffering associated with it – the Ego fought back with creating an identity around the subject “life was pointless.” Taking things personal does not make sense to me anymore. That is probably the reason that everything I tried in order to control the process,  like exercising, meditation felt useless. It made no sense to “get better”.

This is the kernel …and the proof, that absolutely nothing is gained by complete perfect enlightenment. If something were gained, it wouldn’t be enlightenment. Actually, that the palpable takeaway is a feeling of loss, proves one’s authentic experience beyond the created, the incremental— by a selfless absorption into nonorigination, hence its selfless (objective) knowledge.

Nevertheless, of all those who see Essence according to their inherent spiritual potential, even of those whose powerful experience constitutes the Absolute, and know that limit, and witness the stages prior to the dichotomy of the creative (Change), also realize that reality has never fallen into the creative; that awareness as your own mind right now has never moved from where it hovers, on the brink of going into action in perpetuity~ what would one hope to fix? It is already thus.

The ancients have all admonished those who, having stumbled into such a wonder through no effort or will on their part, to take up the path of self-refinement at once, or else squander an opportunity of inconceivable proportions. That “…ego fought back with creating an identity around the subject “life was pointless”, constitutes the work of gradual practice in the aftermath of the sudden. It is clear that any notion of depression, self-pity, apathy, malaise, melancholy, et al, are all just the psychological acrobatics of ego unable to hide— yet hiding none the less by insinuating itself as depression, self-pity, apathy, malaise, melancholy, and on and on. It continues to masquerade under any pretext or rationale in the face of its great lie.

The work of self-refinement in the aftermath of the sudden is the work of a lifetime with the caveat that Real Knowledge of selfless nonorigination beyond any notion of personal absolute identity is a potential deal-breaker for our friend ego. Taoism says that the first trip is short (has an ending): this is the sudden. It says that the second trip is long (is endless): this is gradual practice in the aftermath of selfless sudden realization where it becomes apparent that there is nothing to know, there is no one knowing in terms of awareness being void of voidness constituting the nature of awake, being a selfless inconceivable capacity never having begun. This is who we are. This is the basic experience. It is not special, per se; simply uncommon and beyond convention. What is necessary, over a course of years (Gautama Buddha was no different), is to quell one’s biases and inclinations to arrive at a point where one simply accepts one’s function, takes the forward step, and shares oneself freely with open hands.

In the aftermath of witnessing the Great Cycle, it should be expected that one’s return to “normal” would seem impossible. But normal is simply seeing what is as is without interjecting the psychological momentum of one’s lifelong biases and inclinations relative to the pattern-awareness being the false identity of the knower, thinker and liver of life. It is possible to go through life’s karmic situational evolutions without bringing up self-reifying tags relative to one’s personality identifications— and that’s not just after the sudden. Why? Enlightenment is already your own mind right now. It’s not a different mind: it’s just not your mind. It’s you, you are not it. Just don’t use your mind. Not using your mind is your own mind right now without entertaining notions of the knower, thinker and liver of life.

The reason it is so, not to mention that such is possible to carry out naturally in the midst of delusion, is that such is natural. It’s just not expressed relative to the person, or anyone else’s knowledge. Even so, this is carried out in the open because awareness is already impersonal, objective immediate knowledge. Potential is awareness being itself. There is no cause. That awareness being itself as oneself is ever-ready potential awakened to reality all at once without having to begin. Just this doesn’t refer to mystical experience or its aftermath relative to recalcitrant ego-tantrums admitted as evidence by the OP, it is so by virtue of having a body. The spiritual function not being the person, per se, is just the way it is and no one knows why.

Self refinement, whether practiced gradually before or after the sudden makes no difference. Simply failing to exercise self-reflective consciousness unawares is self-refinement. Following thoughts unawares is delusion. Mind is one. The light of Creation is karmic bondage; turning the light around, self-reification becomes selfless wonder on the spot. The light is one.

Selfless authentic practice is carried out unbeknownst to anyone by seeing reality by virtue of delusion. I hope it is obvious that selflessness has no moralistic connotations relative to self and other, good and bad, right and wrong, or even before and after. Buddhism calls such practice subtle spiritual adaption in mutual response. This means that one’s selfless adaption to conditions is precisely and naturally perfect accord with the situation according with the inherent potential of the situation itself. Discriminatory consciousness and deliberation relative to the person has no place to act. Seeing potential is immediate knowledge based on awareness void of personality distinctions. Obviously habit-energy’s psychological momentum based on ordinary necessarily functional pattern-consciousness is a hard nut to crack. The function itself is not faulty. Habituation to its use relative to the person to the exclusion of fluid, open awareness is where the fault lies. Ego isn’t the perpetrator. THERE IS NO PERPETRATOR. That’s why there is no “getting better.” What would there be to get better? The notion of suffering relative to the OP’s classification is just the ego-antics of the thieving impostor of all time expressing self-importance as self-pity.

Self refinement, either before or after the sudden, is a perpetual process of refining away the human mentality as it reverts to naturally serving one’s enlightening function which accords inherently with situational evolution throughout endless transformations. Just this is inconceivable accord in reality entering the profound mystery. By virtue of having a body, it’s not the person. How wonderful is that?

• This reply was modified 2 years ago by deci.

hi Tiny~ though it is possible to do so, it is simply another relationship no different than any other… that being said, the way I can say to initiate contact is through *surprise* open, sincere beseeching by virtue of one’s utterly authentic, selflessly vulnerable expression in whatever context comes naturally to you in the wonder of authentic contact.

I never intended to do so, but in response to my prayer, I received an immediate response. The sparkly little thing bounded and bounced, careening down two hallways as I thought to myself, “ghosts” —before it turned a couple laps around the dark perimeter of my bedroom with a fascinating glinting luminescence reflecting along the walls and corners of the room. As it circled from left to right around the room before entering my body (right kidney area) with a distinct sizzling sensation, my only thought was “it’s already the same as me anyway.”

For myself, I wouldn’t dare initiate such contact deliberately (in terms of anticipatory consciousness), as I can never trust what degree of personal motivation might energize the necessarily karmic event, much less foretell what inconceivable being might be summoned. But, a girl’s gotta do what a girl’s gotta do. In my case, what was gained or lost amounted to nothing whatsoever, except a bit of real experience in terms what it took to arrive at such a summoning, deducing the universality of the nature of being and relativity, intent, and reciprocity, and the fact that, in the quest of knowledge, in terms of  absolute nature, there is no thing— and just that much is already who you are, and nothing can be done about it nor can one do anything with it other than to turn its potential into karmic evolution~ which is what the realm of creation already is. Entry into the inconceivable is going in reverse. The Light is one; Mind is one. Following it is birth and death; turning the light around, the world reverts to reality on the spot.

As for justifying such initiatory contact, only open sincerity in pure vulnerability for no reason other than to express a fluidity of intent for the hell of it would suffice in my summation.

Ultimately, as clarified above, it’s just another relationship… as far as that goes. At any rate, one’s true authentic teacher is already the essential quality of awake, being the nature of one’s own mind right now. It seems spirit guides et al, aren’t further or closer to the source of the currently relevant transmissions and the various prior illuminates’ methods and directives adopted and perpetuated in such universally authentic teachings the world over, eon after eon. Mind is one, and it’s already you. It can’t be taught.

The “zoomie” who loved me never said a word, and eventually, I sent it on its way~ heehee!!