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    Dear Paradoxy,

    recently when B was talking to him again after reading our conversation, he told her that I was interested in someone, when I actually wasn’t, and she assumed that I was interested in that person for months and she assumed that I was breaking up with her because I was cheating when I actually wasn’t. She thought I was just pinning to blame on her to break up with her so that I could be with someone else. But none of that was true. I was never interested in anyone else. But the false information that he fed to her led to this conclusion.

    Let’s slow this down a little: she accused you (falsely) of cheating, not necessarily because she really believed you cheated on  her, but because a narcissist will use anything to accuse a person, even if it’s a complete fabrication. Don’t forget that she was accusing you left and right, even for major transgressions on her part, such as prostituting herself. She also accused you of “crucifying” her, when you simply wanted her to be faithful and not lie and cheat on you.

    So her accusations are malevolent, arbitrary and unjust: there is no base for them, and yet, she is doing that, because that’s one of the narcissist’ tactics to wear down the victim and assert control and power over their victim. Because every normal person wants to defend themselves against false accusations, and try to prove that they didn’t do the awful thing that they are being accused of.

    But with a narcissist, it’s a futile attempt, because a narcissist is not interested in the truth but in winning over you, in making you feel bad about yourself and them feeling superior to you. Even having moral superiority over you, when she is clearly the lying and cheating party, while you are innocent.

    Because of that, there is no point in trying to defend yourself to her, because she will never accept your arguments – because she is not interested in facts but in feeling superior and in control of you. The more you defend yourself, the more you are entangling yourself in her web, and the more powerful she feels.

    Your defending yourself and arguing with her is one way you give her narcissistic supply. Because she is getting energized from those arguments and you are exhausting yourself in the process.

    Remember how you felt 3 months ago? Completely exhausted, worn down, ruined (your words), with no energy to study. Well, that’s because she drained all the energy out of you, in those endless arguments in which you tried to explain to her that what she did was wrong, or that she is hurting you, or that it’s not your fault that she prostituted herself etc etc. And yet: none of your points reached her. She was like a brick wall and kept accusing you again and again.

    You see? That’s her tactic to control you an wear you down: false accusations.

    I know all that, but she thinks that these are just my excuses to pin the blame on her because she thinks I was cheating on her.

    As I’ve just explained, she might not even think that you were cheating. But she is using it to control the narrative, and the narrative is the one in which you are the guilty party and needing to defend yourself to her. And there she has you: caught in her web.

    No the relationship was already endangered by then, but I am trying to get a peaceful resolution and this dude is feeding her with unnecessary things behind my back???? I am trying to get my money and move on and this dude is creating reasons for her to continue fighting with me?

    There cannot be a peaceful resolution with her, in the sense that she is finally happy with you and gives you back your money and you both go on your merry ways, separately. No. She will never be happy with you unless you choose to be her servant till however long she finds appropriate. She will make you feel guilty and make you “pay” – literally by giving her money and by doing whatever she tells you to do (such as buying her $80 perfumes).

    She will make you pay and serve her purposes – that’s the only way she will be “happy” with you. And as soon as you object, she will attack you and accuse you of being a horrible person. Or she will start pitying herself and whaling about her sad destiny and that if you don’t help her, her life will be ruined blah blah blah. She will use emotional blackmail and guilt-tripping, if you dare to say no to her requests.

    I am trying to get my money and move on and this dude is creating reasons for her to continue fighting with me?

    No, dear Paradoxy, SHE is the reason she is continuing to fight with you. That’s her modus operandi, a way to keep control over you. The chat she stole from you is an endless source of attacks on you (a goldmine, actually), which she will be using for as long as she can provoke a reaction from you. Your friend’s slip-up is just another excuse for her to attack you and torture you.

    And btw, why would it be even your fault that your friend is hitting on her? But still, she finds a reason to turn it against you, to make you feel guilty, so she can keep a moral superiority over you and then…  extract the “pay” from you.

    What I am trying to say is that even if he weren’t hitting on her, she would still be fighting with you. His behavior only gives her more “fuel” to fire those false accusations and arguments.

    And keep in mind that she might have contributed to him hitting on her, by flirting with him and portraying herself as the innocent one in the conflict with you. But of course, she is not showing you their entire conversation. Only the “incriminating” part, which she is happily using to accuse you further.

    Apparently she can’t access the website? And she wanted to deposit some money into her account so she needed to go to the atm for that. And it was in the night and the place we live can get dangerous at night.

    Haha, she can’t access the website, for days…. yeah right. And then she needs to go to the ATM late at night. Yeah, the only time of day she can go. And then of course, what else but to ask you to accompany her? Right?

    No, Paradoxy… honestly, I think she is using it as an excuse to meet with you and try to seduce you back into the relationship. Because you said she wants to lure you back in. So she is playing a “damsel in distress”, needing to go alone in the dangerous night… and she has no one to turn to but you… and so you are her prince charming, who saves her. And she is so happy and maybe even shows some gratitude, and acts sweet… in hope that you might change your mind and accept her back.

    Am I right in assuming that she is acting very sweet on those walks to the ATM? Because if so, those are her attempts to lure you back in…

    Besides I can’t have her death on my conscience if something did happen since she was leaving in the middle of the night.

    Nothing happened to her at those pool parties, where she was dancing almost naked, when you two weren’t dating yet. So don’t worry, this girl is more than capable of taking care of herself – if she wants to. And if she doesn’t… well, you trying to save her from herself is like trying to save an addict from heroin. It’s impossible. You are not responsible for her safety, and besides, she doesn’t have to go to the ATM late at night. That’s just her excuse to meet you…

    Yes I saw her account balance and it was roughly 60$. What else am I supposed to do other than wait patiently until next month? She promised to pay then. I can’t let go of this money.

    First, why don’t you come up with a plan to pay you back in installments, e.g. $100 a month? I don’t know what’s your laptop worth, but I guess not more than $1000? So that would be 10 months.

    I know that with a narcissist, they don’t stick to any kind of commitment, so even if they promise, they will find excuses not to pay you back. But still, I think it would be good to have at least some plan – some form of commitment on her part – rather than her not even trying to save up. Because as it is right now, she will pay you back never. BTW, how much did she already pay back, if I may ask? 10% of the amount she owes?

    I can’t let go of this money.

    You may have to. Are you counting to get back only the laptop money, or also some of the investment money that she promised to give you back? Because I think you can say goodbye to the latter – she’s not giving that back, even if she promised. As far as the laptop money, perhaps the best way would be to get a summer job and earn a thousand bucks and that’s it. Much easier than waiting for her and letting yourself be humiliated and manipulated in the process…

    This woman is now asking if I could buy her an 80$ perfume as “a gift” for her. This woman is craaaaaazzzzyyyyy I swear. The audacity is insaneeeeeee.

    Yeah, glad you see it. But she is not crazy. She is narcissistic. And her behavior is called entitlement. She believes she is entitled to receive such gifts and get whatever she wants (even from people who shouldn’t have any responsibility for her upkeep, such as her ex boyfriend). And she is using every possible tactic to extract things from people, such as blaming, guilt-tripping or playing a martyr…

    Not everyone falls for her tactics, but those who are empathic and/or those who believe they are a bad person (like you – who are both empathic and believe you are a bad person) unfortunately fall for her bait. You are a perfect victim for her, i.e. a perfect source of narcissistic supply.

    No acceptance as in controlling my emotions and not allowing her to trigger me.

    What you are doing now is agreeing to everything she wants (or almost everything) and playing according to her rules, without resisting or raising your voice. So total submission and obedience. You believe you are doing it only for a while, till she gives you back the money. But I hope you understood that her goal is NOT to give you back the money, but to keep you as her source of supply for as long as possible. She doesn’t want to let you go, but to keep you attached to her.

    So what is a better strategy then? I agree that fighting and arguing (and trying to defend yourself in the face of her accusations) wouldn’t be a good strategy. So it’s good that you are trying to reduce that, because that’s only depleting you and energizing her.

    However, it’s also not a good strategy to give her whatever she wants, such as taking her to the ATM whenever she pleases, or believing her empty promises – that she would give you back the money, even if she doesn’t have the slightest intention to start saving.

    You should realize that she doesn’t want to give you back the money, because that’s when she would lose the narcissistic supply (both emotional and financial) that she is getting from you.

    If you know her true intentions, you’ll be able to adjust your strategy better. Because right now she has you on a leash, and she doesn’t intend to drop that leash, if she can help it.

    I didn’t want to be cold to her, but I think that is my only choice right now. I am not letting her fool me anymore.

    Yep, you’d need to change strategy. Gray rocking is one possible method. We can talk more about possible strategies, but you’d need to realize whom you are dealing with: a very tricky enemy. And it won’t be easy to disentangle from her. But you need to first want to. And then come up with the ways how.

    With regard to your friend (your first question), I’ll reply in a separate post.

     

    Tee
    Participant

    * Two spelling errors, this is the correct version:

    Well actually, she’s making a fool out of you.

    Which you are providing to her in abundance

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Your hypothetical story is possible, but I find it very difficult to believe that level of extremity.

    Well, what is true is that she did start accusing him about something he said in that chat she stole from you. And it is also true that he started defending himself. I can imagine that they continued the conversation, and she told him her version of the story and that she was actually your victim.

    She told you the same in her letter that you’ve shared here. It was a typical narcissistic “oh poor me” narrative, where she kind of acknowledged that prostitution was a bad choice on her part, bur then also accused you of making her prostitute herself. And of “ruining” her in general. So she used the typical “I am the victim/martyr” narrative with you, and I don’t doubt that she told the same story to your friend too, portraying herself as the victim.

    The rest of my hypothetical story might be an exaggeration, but I am pretty sure he warmed up to her in these past 3 months, and didn’t see her as such a bad person any more. That, coupled with the fact that she is hot and is posting her modeling pictures on social media:

    she had been posting her modeling pictures on her status too so I am not amazed he got intrigued

    he texted her first regarding her modeling, and then proceeded to make the move

    and the fact that he likes to sleep around:

    He even broke up with his long distance gf cause he wanted to be sexually satisfied by other women instead of waiting for the girl who actually loved him.

    … all probably contributed to him starting hitting on her.

    So there is a backstory to his move, I am sure. But she of course didn’t share their entire chat history with you, but only the part where he made the move.

    I am referring to the times when he told B that I could be cheating without her knowing and the time when he fed her with more false information, which made her believe that we were breaking up cause I was cheating instead of breaking up over her cheating.

    And are you sorry? In fact that was the only time she broke up with you, thinking you’re with some other girl, when in fact you were in your room, sleeping. But you quickly reconciled after that, so no big harm was done. But what about all the other breakups that you initiated because of her bad behavior? Because of her lying about her ex? Because of her wearing revealing outfits and posting it on social media in spite of promising not to? Because of her prostituting herself?

    All that didn’t endanger your relationship, but that one occasion where she asked your friend if you were cheating (so she came up with the paranoid thought first), and then he decided not to dissuade her – that’s what endangered your relationship?

    Really?

    I asked another guy friend for his opinion and he said not to confront him cause it might ruin the friendship and it’s best to just keep my guard up around him.

    And your friendship is not already ruined? I think it’s never a good idea to play into a narcissist’s game: she telling him lies about you (and him believing, at least partially), and now she almost certainly hiding key pieces of their interaction, and making him seem like the only guilty party and a traitor. While she is pulling the strings.

    Obviously I haven’t been allowed to move on yet cause she keeps calling me once in a while and tells me stuff like to take her to the atm, and I ask her if she would give me my money if I take her there and she says it depends on how much she has on her acc, so I walk her to the atm in the hopes of getting the money, only to find she barely has money. Every time she calls me, I take the call in the hopes of getting my money and she is leading me in circles with that trick.

    Oh so you even have to take her to the ATM? She doesn’t have online banking, so she doesn’t know how much money she has?

    And then once you get to the ATM and she sees her account is almost empty, she sheepishly says “oops, nothing there. Can’t give you back today, sorry”. And that’s it? You’re buying it?

    Every time she calls me, I take the call in the hopes of getting my money and she is leading me in circles with that trick.

    Well actually, she’s making a fool put of you. First, she would know how much roughly she has. I mean, she should know it – before she calls you. The fact that she is dragging you to the ATM and then acts surprised that she doesn’t have the money, and basically stands you up and you go back empty handed, is beyond humiliating.

    And even her nonchalant attitude that she’ll give you if there is enough money there – shows that she prioritizes her own expenses and isn’t even one bit concerned about giving back what is yours. It’s like “first I’ll buy everything I need for myself, and then if there’s something left, I’ll give it to you.” But of course, there is nothing left over – she spends everything on herself.

    But as I said, it’s not just the fact that she is super selfish and entitled, and doesn’t care one bit about paying you back. It’s also her attitude where she is making a clown of you, by making you go to the ATM with her and waiting like a puppy for a treat, and then getting nothing.

    Yes I am working on that now. Teaching myself acceptance.

    Acceptance to be treated like a clown?

    So even if I play it safe, I wont get my money?

    No, with this attitude of hers, and you accepting it and tolerating it – no, you won’t get it.

    I dont want to enable her, but it feels like i need to in order to get my money. Yk, to deal with a narcissist u gotta feed their ego until they are satisfied enough to stop bothering you.

    A narcissist is never satisfied. They can never get enough of narcissistic supply. Which you are proving to her in abundance – both by financing her and by putting up with her sh*tty behavior. You are her perfect source of supply, and she isn’t going to let you go easily.

    Yeah I am working on learning how to deal with a narcissist. Hope it works.

    Unfortunately, you are going about it the wrong way.

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Yes he told her that if I was not his friend, he would have wanted to get to know her. Sure u could say he respected me.

    Yes, he did.

    This dude is casually sleeping with multiple women, and I have a feeling he only sees B as a sexually object too. Idk.

    In that case he sees her exactly the way she wants to be seen: as a sex object.

    But if he was attracted to her, he should not have made a move at all (especially after telling him what kind of person she is) cause how can he come tell me that I deserve better and she is not the right person and all that stuff but the next moment he is showing interest in her?

    I don’t think it makes sense to comment on this until you know his version of the story. But it might have been something like this: he meets her, think she’s hot. Nothing more. You are his friend and he is there for you when you complain about the relationship. You are fighting a lot, constantly breaking up and reconciling, and he doubts that you’ll ever break up for good. But eventually you do. He is supportive and even offers to accompany you to her place, to pick up your stuff (you say it’s not necessary, but still, it was nice of him).

    When you are at her place, picking up your stuff, she sees the conversation (many months worth of conversation) between you and him, and steals it. Having gone over it, she starts accusing you of various things. She also starts accusing him. He starts defending himself. And that’s how their conversation starts.

    Little by little, she is working her magic and starts painting a different version of what happened between the two of you. Slowly but surely she is manipulating him into believing that you are an a**, while she is innocent. She portrays herself as your victim. He starts thinking that she is not as bad as you portrayed her to be. And indeed, she sounds so sweet and normal with him – no trace of the b**** and the brickwall that you were complaining about.

    They seem to be getting on so well, and then she sends him a few strategic emoticons (a heart, a kiss, maybe even some pursed lips). He is hooked. And he tells her: Everyone’s interactions with people are unique and different. It might not be the same for us.

    I can easily imagine the above scenario.

    He should not have been trying to screw us up from behind my back in the first place. If he wanted to make a move, he should have expressed his interest after B and I had settled everything since our break up, instead of trying to push us toward the break up.

    How did he push you towards the breakup? You were breaking up all the time anyway.

    He can’t be saying B is cruel and narcissistic and etc and then the next day you find him dating her.

    Not exactly the next day. As I said, the scenario I painted above is very possible with a narcissist.

    Yes I get that, but at least wait for us to settle things between her so I can stop caring completely,

    If he waited for you to stop caring completely, he could be waiting a lifetime 😉

    because he knows that she owes me money, and he couldn’t wait?

    She owes you money. At this point you are her creditor, not her boyfriend. It could be a strictly business relationship. But it’s much more than business, at least to you…

    he still knowingly hammered the wedge that was already placed between us and then he made a move behind my back.

    What wedge did he hammer between you and B? How is he responsible for your breakup?

    Eh, she told me to not do anything about it or confront him about it… so how is she pitting us against each other?

    Because she might be lying about half of it…

    But to be dumb enough to trust a girl who u have known for 2 years but barely interacted with, over a guy who has been with u for 4+ years and you literally live together and do everything together is just insane.

    They have been probably interacting in the past 3 months… as I said, his affinity for her (if it really exists) didn’t happen over night.

    Besides, you too trust her rather than him, even if you’ve known her and her antics for almost 2 years.

    He could lie too. What then? Its not like he would show me his chat.

    Well, he might… but you can ask him about this whole thing. Unless you want to keep accusing him without knowing the full story.

    Yeah she doesn’t know how to save money, which is why I am becoming increasingly annoyed cause there is nothing I can actually do to force her to save money. Can’t even call the cops because her roommate is a cop and she is also one of the worst cheaters u could find.

    There is no way to force her to do anything she doesn’t want, Paradoxy. And since you’re not going to take the case to the court, you might as well start accepting the possibility that she’ll never return your money. There will be always something more urgent to spend on.

    its not like I can block her. I have to just sit here and let her hit my pride and ego and everything and tank it as much as I can.

    You don’t have to block her. You can keep it strictly business and ask: “do you have my money? No? Okay, call me when you have it.”

    How about communicating in this way? Your conversations don’t really have to end in a fight – if you learn how to stop being triggered by a narcissist. If you educate yourself. If you decide to stop allowing her to abuse you.

    But I am afraid you’re not at that stage yet, since you’re laughing about repeatedly being bitten by a snake:

    Lol ig u r right.

    It seems you still want to enable her. You still want to stay in this emotionally charged relationship with her, even if it’s draining you and you feel bad afterwards.

    And yeah she is trying to lure me back into a relationship too, but it ain’t working.

    She is a text-book narcissist then. Doing the “hoovering” (if you want to look it up). I strongly suggest you educate yourself on narcissist tactics, because if you don’t, you are going to get hoovered again, Paradoxy. Taking yourself for another cycle. Spin cycle (as I heard someone call narcissistic abuse).

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Yes, but his behavior shows that maybe he was interested in her from the beginning.

    Possibly. She is sexy and seductive. As I said, many men are interested in such women.

    Maybe that is why he did the stuff he did the previous times we fought. He may have made his move now but saying that he would have wanted to get to know her if I didn’t exist means he was interested in her even while I was dating her.

    So in their June 4 conversation, he told her he would have wanted to get to know her (like from the moment he met her), if you weren’t his friend? If so, at least he respected the fact that you are his friend. But really, if he was attracted to her, what should have he done? Certainly not admit it to you, since that would have been even worse for everyone.

    But I agree, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth to have your best friend being interested in your ex. Still, you can’t forbid him to be attracted to her, and now even to make a move. Still, I’d talk to him about it, because I am sure she is not telling you the whole story.

    Um how is he a victim? He made the move first. He messaged her first. She just didn’t want me telling him that she told me the truth, especially after he told her not to tell me.

    Well, she already went behind his back and told you about it – which he asked her not to. And they’ve communicated in the past too, it’s not like this was their first conversation. So there might have been an exchange between them, which you’re not aware of. And she seems like a girl who is flirty in general, so why wouldn’t she be with him too.

    In any case, I think she could hardly wait to tell this to you, and to start pitting you and your friend against each other. She might have been telling him lies about you, same as she painted you as a psycho to one of her girlfriends, by omitting some important details.

    So if she told him her version of the story (filled with lies), he might have started seeing her in a different light, and trusting her, and seeing her as a victim… So who knows what preceded that message of his, where he started hitting on her.

    Though the photoshopping could be a possibility, I dont have any means of confirming it.

    Unless you talk to your friend… and find out what he has to say, rather than trusting her (a proven liar) on her word.

    Well I did see her bank statement and she only has around 60$ so I wouldn’t push it away as a tactic.

    Well, she clearly likes to spend money (including your money)… that’s why she has almost nothing on her bank account. It’s not like she is trying hard to save up, so she can repay you. On the contrary, she is spending on herself, e.g. now she has enrolled a trading class. BTW is it to become a broker?

    I know I might never get it, but I still wanted to try. Just maybe. Just maybe she might stop being the way she is, even if it is 0.00001%.

    Good luck with that, Paradoxy. Because the chance is 0%. Zero. Nada. Your attempts are futile. It’s like going to the snake and expecting not to be bitten.

    But it’s your choice. You know how she makes you feel. You know the kind of things she is telling you:

    my ex proceeded with more insults. Telling me that every girl that rejected me dodged a bullet lol. Telling me that I am unlovable.

    She owes you quite a lot of money, but she has the audacity to insult you and lecture you. And you are taking it all in, believing her, feeling worse after each conversation, feeling broken. But still, going for more, trying to convince her that you are a good person after all, hoping that she would see it, hoping that she would change….

    I am sorry that you are allowing her to abuse you, time and again. I am sorry that you don’t realize that she is exploiting you and ruining you even more. And that she won’t change, even if she is promising things. Narcissistic people are known for that: false promises. Future faking. Giving you hope, promising that things will be different. But nothing. Ever. Changes.

    She might even lure you back into a relationship. Beware of that.

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The guy said “Everyone’s interactions with people are unique and different. It might not be the same for us.” Basically he thinks that he will have a different/better experience with her than me ig.

    Your guy friend told you this? Or he said it to her in their conversation (of which she sent you the screenshots)?

    Their conversation happened on June 4, almost 3 months after you split up. So you can’t blame him. But he is in for a rough ride, if she indeed starts dating him.

    Nope, he specifically told her not to tell me, and B requested that I not tell him that she told me. So I am just going to stay silent and see what happens.

    It’s a typical narcissistic tactic – to make people keep secrets while they (the narcissist) makes up lies and intrigues behind their back. And pit friend against friend.

    If I were you, I would speak with him. I wouldn’t respect the narcissist’s plea for secrecy, because it damages the victims. And now both of you (you and your guy friend) are her victims.

    Based on the response B gave, he might not try it again, but if he does, ig we will see.

    So she told him off? Refused his advances? (at least in the part of the conversation that she you let you see)? BTW I guess screenshots can be photoshopped too, so beware. I wouldn’t trust anything she sends – everything can be manipulated. That’s why it would be good to talk to your friend.

    Yep, she has. Her lack of listening and other behaviors are why I call her a brick wall, cause nothing I say gets into her head.

    Alright, it all makes sense now. Of course a narcissist would be a brick wall. They simply refuse to hear what they don’t want to hear.

    She is showing signs of planning to delay the payment but I am not in Jamaica yet so we will see once I get back.

    She paid me once, but it will probably take another 8-9 months before she can completely pay me back. Now she is telling me she started attending trading class and etc so she need the money for that.

    Well at least she paid you once. But the delay tactics is in place, as I thought. Honestly, I don’t think it’s worth to keep talking to her (and getting into fights) for the next at least 8-9 months till you get the next batch of your money.

    As a narcissist, she enjoys torturing you, sending you stuff that provoke you (like the convo between her and your friend), and pushing your buttons. Narcissists thrive on that. The bigger your reaction, the more powerful they feel. So my guess is that she is going to keep delaying the payment, and have you depend on her and her whims for as long as possible.

    And though I didn’t say she seduced him or flirted with him, I told her that she probably made him feel too comfortable, which made him want to say the things he said. Besides, she had been posting her modeling pictures on her status too so I am not amazed he got intrigued.

    I think you are right, and I am glad that you see it.

    I don’t need to understand. I am just trying to respect her by listening to her and make her feel understood so that she may give the mutual respect for me and actually listen to me as well

    Dear Paradoxy – you’re expecting respect and understanding from a narcissist? Unfortunately, that’s something you’ll never get…

    I know it is stupid but I am working on improving myself by teaching myself to be more understanding.

    You don’t need to be more understanding with a narcissist… You’ve already gave her plenty of leeway, and she is just using it to manipulate you further.

    Yeah lol I was thinking about a punching bag too, I am probably going to find one and use it when I get time. But my anger is very controlled rn, but it might burst when I see him, so idk. We will see.

    He is not the main person to be angry at… But in any case, even a pillow is a good strategy – if you don’t have a punching bag.

     

    in reply to: Feels like Time is passing too fast #433668
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    sorry, this will be a long post. I apologize in advance if it’s too much and if I perhaps missed the point…

    First of all thanks a lot for putting that much time for me. You’re a truly good mentor and supporter.

    You are very welcome! And thank you for your kind words. It seemed like an important material, and very relevant to you, so I figured I want to transcribe it, to have a written trace of it. I’ve learned a lot from it, and I am glad you too benefited.

    Those are very good insights so thanks for pointing that out and the thing is that I’m trying to create a healthy boundaries but most of the time what is still happening that If I get a minor inconvenience or feel like they’re not respecting my boundaries even once or twice I distance myself from them and after that I kinda feel much less connected to them.

    It could be that if they don’t pick up immediately that something is bothering you, you feel unseen by them, and you conclude that your needs don’t matter to them, and that they might hurt you (maybe it’s not even conscious but unconscious reasoning). And from that moment on, you are on guard and you start distancing yourself.

    If so, it means that a minor slip on their part leads to a major danger alert going off in your subconscious mind. And so you switch to defense mode, where you are on alert for being hurt. And in order to prevent being hurt, you preemptively withdraw and stop being open and vulnerable. This is what might be happening.

    The reason for that is the old trauma, which causes you to make a big deal out of a minor issue. And to put up your shields.

    What happened in your childhood is that your mother didn’t really care about your emotional needs: she didn’t care if your father’s anger outbursts hurt you. Moreover, she told you to accept it without any resistance. She basically told you your emotions don’t matter (in this case fear and anger), and that you should be able to control your anger and pretend that it’s not there. She told you that you should silently take the verbal “beatings” and be a good, obedient boy.

    In other words, your mother didn’t have much regard for your emotional needs. She didn’t let you have boundaries. Or to be rightfully upset for being mistreated. And it felt horrible. It felt like a prison. It felt so horrible that you left home at the age of 17.

    She didn’t let you set boundaries, and so you didn’t get the chance to learn how to set boundaries. The only way to protect yourself from being invaded was to leave. To remove yourself from the situation/relationship completely.

    So this is I think what’s happening: in a romantic relationship, when you feel that the person doesn’t care about your needs – and it could be that even a minor thing can trigger such a feeling – your knee-jerk reaction is to want to leave the relationship. Even if you don’t leave physically, you start withdrawing emotionally, and the intimacy is lost for you. Intimacy is not an option any more.

    So instead of working to repair the relationship – and maintain emotional connection and intimacy – you put a stop on intimacy. You block it. Even if you stay in the relationship, you stay in a self-defense mode, with your shields up (we’ve talked about the shield/armor around your heart).

     

    And I think one aspect of this self-defense mode is the superiority/inferiority dynamic, where you feel less vulnerable if you can feel superior than your partner.

    In the relationship with your father, you felt inferior and never good enough. It seems that with a romantic partner, you never want to feel that way: worthless, unlovable, not good enough. And so you either avoid relationships altogether, or if you opt for a relationship, you want to feel better than your partner. Because that’s how you feel safe(r) from her criticism.

    I think that’s why you also want to perfect yourself as much as possible before getting married:

    [I said] Maybe loving hard also means that you need to work hard to be lovable? That you need to be successful, so she would love you (“she can always find a rich husband but a for a guy, he got to be something good”)?

    [you replied] Kind of yes I guess like trying to perfecting the relationship and my partner too.

    I imagine it’s because the idea of being stuck with someone who criticizes you all the time (such as a criticizing, judgmental wife) is unbearable.

    But I think also the idea of being stuck with a woman who is full of faults, who is unaware of her issues and refuses to work on herself – is equally unbearable to you:

    I just don’t want to deal with the women who aren’t even self aware about their traumas and not actively working on it. Because effort is something that really attractive to me. Kind of a priority.

    In your last post you said the girl should be similar to you:

    I don’t think that some damaged people but hmm more like someone I can resonate with a little, Not too much different from me so it would be easier to open up for me.

    Putting all this information together, it seems to me that your perfect partner is someone who has similar issues, i.e. someone who similarly like you doesn’t feel good enough and wants to “perfect” herself.

    Your first LDR was like that, wasn’t she? She had many issues (mostly low self-esteem) and wanted to change. And you were keen on helping her to change. You two were stuck in the superior/inferior dynamic, where she was trying to change and be a better person, but was failing most of the times. You hoped she would change, but she never did, and after 3 years you had enough and called it quits.

    With your next LDR, you only stayed for about 2 months. This is what you said about her:

    She’s nice and mature but she is somewhat an anxious person. like whatever I suggest she be like it’s easy to tell, hard to do. even though I tried being patience she’s just doesn’t want to get out of her comfort zone.

    She’s mostly complaining that I’m being hard on her. Even though I’m trying to take this patiently. So what now I shouldn’t have some ground values of my own?

    She didn’t appreciate your attempts to push her out of her “comfort zone”. She thought you were hard on her. Maybe that’s because she had more self-esteem than your first LDR and showed more resistance to your attempts to “perfect” her. And since her resistance was greater (and more obvious) than your first LDR, you broke up with her rather swiftly:

    When I don’t see efforts I also lost interest quite fast. One of the reasons why I broke up with one of the Best LDR I had. Because I felt like I was the only one putting the efforts there. and that’s why in 2nd LDR I sensed like I don’t want to deal with the same thing because I felt like she wouldn’t even put the effort more than the previous one. so I broke up with her as well.

    Now this latest girl has issues as well, possibly some similar to yours (anger), but overall, she has bigger issues than you in terms of mental health. She also seems interested in working on herself (she has been in therapy for 4 years), which is a must for you.

    So right there you’ve got 2 potential attraction points: she has similar but greater issues than you, and she is (at least in theory) interested in self-improvement.

    You also said she is mysterious:

    I think I was curious because she seemed little bit mysterious at first. … She smokes, she’s dramatic and her anger is always on the edge. I tried to understood why she’s the way she is and I noticed that it’s just her coping mechanisms, At heart she’s kind and loving woman.

    It could be that you were intrigued by her anger (because it reminded you of your father), and started hoping that underneath her anger you might find a “kind and loving woman”. So she would be someone similar to your father, and yet different: someone who appears rough and angry on the outside, but is actually kind and loving underneath. This might have been a hope and the excitement that your inner child felt in the presence of this “mysterious” woman.

    Maybe I got carried away too much here. But in any case, I can see why you were intrigued by her, even if she appears the “opposite of what you like” (another friend told me how she is opposite of what I like).

    But just because this recent woman which I barely talked to her for like 2 weeks. We can’t say that I’m attracted to troubled people. Can we? But yeah she’s more troubled that’s for sure.

    Well, you were attracted to a troubled person in the past (your first LDR), with whom you stayed for more than 3 years. And you said she was your best LDR.

    Maybe I am looking too much into this, and I apologize if I am talking nonsense. But still, here’s what I am thinking: perhaps the reason why you considered her your best relationship is because she fulfilled the 3 criteria that I listed above: 1) similar but greater issues than you, 2) openness (at least declarative) to self-improvement and change, and 3) openness to being coached/helped by you, as someone who is “further along” on the self-development journey? Perhaps these are the “attraction points” that make you fall in love with a girl?

    Please note: this is just an assumption. Think about it, and see if it resonates at all. If yes, then it’s kind of a formula of how you fall in love, a formula which is more or less based on self-defense. It doesn’t really allow for intimacy and vulnerability.

    Let me know what you think. And I apologize if I went overboard with my assumptions and analysis.

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Dafne,

    I was thinking about his deal to leave the house to his ex-wife and children. Perhaps that’s not so unfair, because she is the mother of his children and takes care of them, so it would be unfair to take it from underneath her once the children are grown. So that part of the deal might not be unfair.

    But nevertheless, he doesn’t seem like a good man in general, and I think you can be happy that the relationship ended.

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Dafne,

    thank you for your care and kindness and wishing me well regarding my health.

    I am very sorry that you are suffering from the consequences of long Covid. That must be awful 🙁

    And did you get Covid more than once? Because you said that it got worse after your last Covid (After my last COVID, it got even worst.) I really hope that with time it will get better for you, Dafne.

    I was smiling when you mentioned the flower in my profile picture you got it right again. I did do a lot of artistic projects in the past and painting was one of my favourites. I used to sit in the nature a lot and just breath.

    I am glad I was right about the artist in you! 🙂 How come you stopped painting and doing art projects, if I may ask?

    Perhaps being in nature and just soaking in its beauty would help you relax, and might even have a positive effect on your breathing? I apologize in advance if I am over simplifying things and making useless suggestions. Because I know dealing with a chronic illness is much more complicated than that…

    Yes, it was a separate session but people seemed to share the information and it did not feel very private. The group wasn’t the patients but the health professionals.

    Oh so it was like an expert panel, so to speak, giving you their suggestions. That’s a strange setup for counseling, because counseling is best done 1:1, where the patient develops trust and rapport with the practitioner. What they did is more like a hospital setting, where a panel of doctors decides what’s the best treatment option in case of disease. But here, the best treatment option is to have empathy and understanding for the client. That’s how our healing begins.

    You found the right word for this kind of practice “tough love” and it wasn’t a very compassionate & understanding environment. It might be that they meant well and did not want people to feel like victims but the effect was completely different. It did not feel right at all and feelings seemed to be ignored and logic prevailed.

    I understand it’s important not to feel like a helpless victim – because if we do, we won’t be able to make the necessary changes in our lives. However, we were victims as children – we were indeed helpless victims. And we were harmed. And this needs to be acknowledged before we can proceed to heal. The wound needs to be acknowledged, before it can be treated.

    Tee, I will make sure to check the places you suggested for the tramatised animals. My mom’s dog is a COVID baby as she got him around that time. She rescued him and had to pay a lot of money as the place did not want to keep him due to his appearance. He had a squint and was very shy.

    Oh so nobody wanted the little dog, but your mom took pity on him and rescued him. And I guess she paid a lot of money for his surgery, i.e. doctor’s expenses?

    Nobody wanted him but my mother showed her loving heart and took him. My mother did not give him the proper training as most places were closed during the COVID and he stayed at home most of the time. She did a very beautiful thing but now as he got older it got harder as well.

    Well, this tells me that your mom would never hurt that dog. If she had a loving heart to take him and nurse him to health, then I am sure she would never harm him. So her threats are empty, Dafne, she is only using it to emotionally blackmail you.

    As for your ex fiance, first I’d like to say that it’s better that you’ve split up, because he seems like a violent man, who attacked his wife physically and she had to call the police on him twice (he pushed his ex-wife on the coach and she called police 2 times on him.)

    Not only that, but he blamed her for his violent behavior (he blamed her for everything).

    Which means that if you had a disagreement with him in the future, you might have received a similar treatment, and a similar excuse: that it was your fault.

    Also, he was possessive, because he didn’t like it when you went out with your girlfriends. He was also jealous, believing that you might find someone better than him:

    he controlled me when I wanted to go out with my girlfriends. He always suspected that I might meet some man better than him.

    Possessiveness and jealousy is another big red flag. And the need to control his partner’s social life, lest she leaves him. Those are all very worrying features in a guy.

    The financial aspect and stinginess is also a problem, but it’s not even his worst sin. Physical violence and blaming the woman for “provoking” him, as well as possessiveness and jealousy are all very serious problems. And you are lucky you haven’t ended up together with him.

    As for his financial and living arrangements with his ex-wife, I didn’t get it whether he was living in the house he bought on mortgage, or his ex-wife was living there with their children? Or they were both living in the same house, because he couldn’t afford to buy/rent another place?

    You said your mother went to help with his kids and stayed there for 2 weeks. Which would tell me that he is living there with the kids. Where was his ex wife during that time? Was she sick?

    I am guessing he is not sharing equal custody of the kids (50:50), since you said he doesn’t have a baby sitter (he did not want to pay for baby sitter or any help). So I am guessing this 2-week period was an exception, when his wife wasn’t there or couldn’t take of the kids, and that’s why he had to take care of them?

    Another problem was that he wasn’t legally divorced – that’s why he didn’t want a civil wedding, and he never showed you the divorce papers. He still had common property with his ex-wife – the house which he was paying the mortgage for – and so a chunk of his income always goes towards that property. And I’ve looked it up, it’s common in case of divorce that the family home remains intact, for the benefit of the children. And that it may remain intact till the youngest child turns 18.

    However, after that, the place can be sold and the proceeds split. But he wanted to keep that place for his children and his ex-wife even after his death (He told me that his house is for his kids and when he dies also for his ex-wife.), while at the same time he was expecting you to live in a partnership with him, in which a significant portion of his income would go towards paying off the mortgage. To me, this sounds unfair.

    I don’t know, maybe I am not seeing it clearly, but it seems unfair, because you would be bearing the burden of his mortgage, but then eventually, the house would go to his ex-wife after his death.

    His other features, like despising poor people, are also a big red flag:

    He always spoke about rich people highly and told his kids that poor people have no value in this life.

    So all in all, he doesn’t seem like a good, ethical person, on the contrary. And you made a good choice for not proceeding with him!

    What do you think Tee? Was I right to stop all the contact with him after all that? I still wrote with his daughter but it seems now that she is distancing herself from me as well. What would you do in my place?

    You were right to stop contact with him. When did you split up? How old are his children now? And how long were you together? I guess it’s normal that your relationship with his daughter slowly fades away, since you never got to live with her and form a deeper bond with her, right?

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Dafne,

    happy to hear from you! I am sorry your internet access was disrupted – hopefully it will get back to normal soon.

    I myself am more or less okay, thank you for asking. Still having some new health issues that come and go, but I try not to worry about it too much. These past 6 months have been about learning how to face and manage my health anxiety, and my fears in general. And it’s a work in progress, but I am getting better at it 🙂

    Meanwhile I found out a bit more about that counselling place you asked me about.

    Good you did that!

    And the first person I spoke to was a nurse and the other was a counselor. They each had an assessment with me and they had the same opinions of what I confined to them.

    Oh so it wasn’t one session with both of them, but two separate sessions, right? But they both gave you a similar opinion – basically blaming you for not helping yourself as a child :\

    Then at the end of my session I spoke to a group of people and they seemed to know about the problems of all other participans as well.

    You mean you participated in a group therapy session, where participants share about their problems?

    I remember one person saying that you need to be honest with yourself where you made any mistakes and should not sugarcoat it like at many other institutions.

    Well yeah, we need to be honest with ourselves, but it is also important to understand what caused our problems and how our childhood trauma led us to where we are now.

    I don’t know what they meant by “sugarcoating”? Is it to have empathy and understanding for the person? Because if they advocate more of the “tough love” approach, telling the person to “get a grip” and “take responsibility” – so coming more from a judgmental side – it cannot lead to a lasting healing.

    Regarding the dog, I’m really thankful for all your advice. I contacted a vet but she is not a behaviourist so couldn’t help too much. Unfortunately we do not have a big choice here.

    Then I asked at the shelter and they gave me the number of a dog sitter & a trainer. They told me that he is not easy to train as he has aggressive tendencies and his anxiety is too big. I’ve tried to leave him with her gradually but she wasn’t happy to continue as she could not touch him and he snaped at her. I don’t see any solution here.

    I am sorry the people you’ve asked so far couldn’t really help. Did this dog come from a shelter, and was already traumatized, or your mother didn’t treat him/train him properly?

    But I know there are people who are willing to work with even the most traumatized dogs. And even take them to their homes. Perhaps google “working with traumatized dogs” and see what comes up?

    You’re right Tee, there are a few things that I like doing and need to do more often. I neglected it for a long time. I could say that I enjoy listening to the music, painting and travelling.

    It all sounds lovely! Perhaps you can take up painting? Your profile picture, with nice flowers, kind of gives me the vibe of an artistic soul… Whatever you choose, I strongly recommend doing something that feeds and nourishes your soul!

    What do you like doing in your free time?

    I used to love hiking and taking walks in nature, but I’ve got mobility issues since the last few years, so climbing even the smallest hill isn’t an option any more 🙁 But I still love to take a stroll in nature, even if it’s just a green oasis within the city, e.g. visiting an arboretum, or a Japanese garden. I find it very nourishing for my soul…

     I’m not sure if you believe in dreams and that they mean something but I keep having the same dreams for a long time now. I see my ex fiancé in them. I keep waking up with regrets that I gave up on him so easily. I think I mentioned him to you once.

    You mentioned someone who you felt only wanted you to take care of his kids and cook and clean for him. To be a maid, sort of. Is that him?

    He told me that his house is for his kids and when he dies also for his ex-wife. And if we want something together, I need to buy something new with him.

    So he didn’t have a place to live and basically wanted you to co-finance his new place?

    He visited some of my family, but it was not enough for him & he insisted to also see how my mother lives.

    Do you know why he was so adamant to see how your mother lives? Perhaps he was interested in her real estate? Sorry if I am being too suspicious, but I can only think of 2 reasons why seeing your mother’s place would be such a deal-breaker for him: either he thought you are hiding something about your mother, and saw this as a red flag, or he was interested in seeing what type of property he can count on some time down the line. Did he seem materialistic, stressing things like wealth, status etc?

    His family also interfered a lot, and he always asked their opinion.

    You mean his ex-wife interfered? Or his parents?

    He was a bit controlling at times but that showed me that he cares about me.

    Can you give me an example of his being controlling?

    Was my mother right about not inviting him? Was he bad news but I didn’t see it?

    Well, your mother was not too kind in not wanting to meet him. However, it is her right not to invite guests to her house. He expected you to “convince” her, although if someone is stubborn, what can you do? Have you talked about your mother (and her character) to him? It seems he blamed you for not being able to control (or have more influence over) your mother…

    I don’t think your mother is right when it comes to judging people’s characters. So I wouldn’t trust her judgment, specially since she never even met him. However, there are some red flags in his behavior, so it might be a good thing that you didn’t push for a relationship with him.

    Why those dreams keep torturing me?

    It could be that your counseling session, in which the counselor accused you of not being pushy enough with your recent love interest (the church man), triggered some regrets about this other guy, who was your fiance. Maybe there is something to look at in this relationship, and now is the right time for it? I’ll be happy to help you analyze it a bit more, if you’d like?

    Big hug to you too, cheers and all the best, dear Dafne <3

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The amount of anger that I have boiling inside me makes me want to break him, but I made a promise to his mother to keep him safe.

    A boxing bag might be a good idea – a safe way to physically express anger without hurting anybody…

    Tee
    Participant

    * A slight correction:

    Because if not, then your ongoing conflict is just a smokescreen, which she uses to justify her defiance and her refusal to give you back your money.

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Got screenshots of their conversation on Instagram

    She sent it to you? When is the conversation between the two of them dated?

    but honestly don’t know who to trust anymore.

    Definitely not her. She is known for seductive behavior, sexting and other stuff. And lying. I wouldn’t be surprised if she flirted with your friend too.

    Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Despite all the things I told him about her.

    A sexy, enticing girl, who enjoys men’s attention, is interesting to a lot of  men… He might think she is hot. There is no crime in that. But he didn’t start anything with her until after you two broke up. If it is even true that he started hitting on her. Perhaps she was being seductive with him… BTW if he really wants to pursue her, in spite of everything you told him about her, well good luck, he’ll have to learn his lesson the hard way.

    The amount of anger that I have boiling inside me makes me want to break him, but I made a promise to his mother to keep him safe.

    Please don’t harm him. You need to control the physical expression of your anger, even if you feel anger inside.

    So now I have to walk around with more anger and hate in my heart, while pretending to be good friends with him.

    Have you talked to him about her allegations (that he was hitting on her)?

    Already called B out for being a narcissist a while back, but that argument didn’t go anywhere. She is just too stubborn.

    Yeah, narcissists are like that… and if you call them out, they’ll accuse you right back – that you are a narcissist. Has she done that?

    I am here trying my best to stay calm and understanding and she just pushes all the wrong buttons.

    What do you need to understand? Has she started repaying your laptop, or she is still finding excuses to delay it?

    And then I burst when I couldn’t handle her disrespect and I started being verbal abusive to her when she crossed the line with her disrespect. I tolerate insults toward me but don’t expect me to stay calm if she starts insulting my parents, and I fell right into her trap: she now says I am the one who didn’t change and that she was the one who had to put up with my verbal abuse.

    Are you still caught in a conflict with her, with arguments, mutual accusations, insults, things like that?

    Even if I watched those videos and identified B as a narcissist, I still have to put up with her until I get my money back.

    And has she started repaying? Because if not, then your ongoing conflict is just a smokescreen, which uses to justify her defiance and her refusal to give you back your money. She might want to keep you in this state of anger, frustration and conflict for months and years. Without delivering what she’s promised.

     

    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I honestly don’t know anymore. Last night I found out that my guy best friend just hit on my ex, behind my back, going far enough to tell her not to tell me. Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Despite all the things I told him about her. Lol.

    Oh wow! A faithful friend he is… And how did you find out? From B?

    Then my ex proceeded with more insults. Telling me that every girl that rejected me dodged a bullet lol. Telling me that I am unlovable and etc. I don’t know anymore. To fight back I started insulting her too. But idk, I was never good at a verbal battle.

    You know, I’ve been suspecting for a while that B is narcissistic. I first started suspecting when I read her letter. The style was pretty much that of a narcissist, the covert (so-called vulnerable) type. So someone who is super selfish and manipulative, and yet playing a victim.

    Recently I’ve been watching some youtube videos on narcissism by a famous clinical psychologist and expert in narcissism, Dr Ramani Durvasula (the channel’s name: DoctorRamani). And let me give you the titles of some of those videos:

    When narcissists harm you and then expect a hug

    When a narcissist promises to change

    What does it mean when a narcissist says “I’m sorry”

    Narcissist defensiveness vs. REAL apology

    Why do you always need to repeat yourself to narcissists

    B did all of the above: expected you to keep behaving as if nothing happened (and have sex with her) when she told you she prostituted herself, she kept promising to change and never did, she kept giving you fake apologies, she kept “forgetting” things (and you needed to repeat yourself over and over again). And of course, she was lying to you, falsely accusing you and gaslighting you, the latter being the signature of a narcissistic person.

    If I am right, Paradoxy, then you had it thousand times worse than in a normal relationship. Because a relationship with a narcissist is pure hell. And has the ability to ruin the person. So no wonder you feel broken: broken wings, broken heart, broken soul.

    But I have to ask you something: even if you agree with me, please please please don’t tell B that she is a narcissist. Because it will backfire. A narcissist cannot be defeated by telling them the truth about themselves – a narcissist will always turn things against you. And you’ve already experienced it with her:

    I was never good at a verbal battle.

    Precisely. You cannot win an argument with a narcissist.

    Can’t seem to fight the feeling that maybe…. just maybe…. people are actually better off without me.

    She made you believe that. Unfortunately, she “confirmed” what you already believed about yourself before, due to your upbringing. But she is a broken mirror, Paradoxy. She is one big lie. Whatever she tells you about yourself is a lie. Toxic. Poison.

    Perhaps you want to peak into one of those videos that I mentioned above. I think you’d recognize B very easily…

     

    in reply to: Feels like Time is passing too fast #433456
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    I just want to add: the fact that you’ve recently stood up to both your father and grandfather and expressed your frustration is a big deal! That’s the beginning of standing up for yourself, saying No to certain things, and setting boundaries. Exactly what you need in the next phase of your healing journey: to speak more freely and stand up for yourself, not suppressing your frustration and pretending you are fine with being mistreated (the latter is what your mother taught you).

    So it’s a huge huge step forward and an important milestone!

    It’s also great that your mother understood your need to speak up and didn’t try to silence you, once you’ve explained to her how much her “hushing you down” have cost you in terms of mental health:

    Although My father does started to tell my mom (Not to me or my brother directly) that we’re not obedient like before. We siblings talk back a lot. And My mother still just listens to that. But she did told me that if you think it’s hurting you then speak up I didn’t speak up in all these years so I don’t speak up or just rarely.

    So that’s a change of attitude on her part too. And you were clear that you won’t let her hush you down anymore. So I just want to reiterate: that’s a great progress, SereneWolf, and I think it’s actually a crucial step in becoming more authentic and self-confident (and free) – not only in the relationship with your parents, but in all of your relationships too.

     

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