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being surrounded with bitter people and lonliness

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  • This topic has 245 replies, 3 voices, and was last updated 4 weeks ago by anita.
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  • #411070
    anita
    Participant

    Edit: “she said, translated…”

    #411084
    farnaz
    Participant

    Dear Anita

    the sentiment.. from a mother, it is too vulgar, too wrong. I never brought it up to her, never asked her about these words. I don’t quite understand. May i say ?this was disturbing. how she even see about situation  this way ?and she dared to say that ?

    i dont understand it either , i dont know what to say .

    maybe that s good you dont understand it .

    what is rather interesting for me is that although their image is very important for them , how we their children see them couldnt be less valuable . they didnt hold back hurting us , i believe first they didn`t see as human and second we were their hostage , we had no choice , this is maddening .

    I never shared this here. And in my mind, you will not want to talk to me anymore because of these words . thank you  very much for sharing it to me , i`m not sure the last part though?

    far

    #411112
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    I finally dared to read your response this morning. I thought about the post I submitted to you yesterday, and I was afraid that my mother’s nastiness would stick to me in the sense that you will consider me too nasty to communicate with, as in you thinking: these people are too nasty, too vulgar.. to below me, something like that.

    This was disturbing. How she even sees a situation this way? and she dared to say that? I don’t understand it either, I don’t know what to say. Maybe that’s good (that) you don’t understand it“- thank you for your honest response, I very much appreciate it!

    Here is what I was thinking yesterday, after I posted to you, trying to understand it: she was sitting in the apartment that night waiting for me, angry, and thinking how to hurt me best when I return, what words will hurt me the most. What she ended up saying was the best she came up with, in regard to what words will deliver the most painful blow to my mind and heart. Her words delivered deep SHAME, and deep shame hurts. (She knows how much it hurts from personal experience).

    I remember the corners of her mouth going up, in a tiny kind of a smile- when she said things aimed to hurt me and then watched me hurt, feeling triumphant. I think that she had that smile at that night, and with that smiled, satisfied, she went t bed.

    What is rather interesting for me is that although their image is very important for them, how we their children see them couldn’t be less valuable. They didn’t hold back hurting us. I believe first, they didn`t see as human“- in my mother’s mind (and in the minds of the neighbors and everyone else who heard- and saw her raging at me with words and otherwise, and did nothing about it), I was her property: a something that she owned and could do with whatever she wanted, with an exception: she said to me once, you think I am stupid? I am not going to break your bones like some parents do, and get into trouble for it?!

    Having a child, for many parents, is an opportunity to pass on what was done to them and be on the Powerful Side of it this time around.

    “and second we were their hostage, we had no choice, this is maddening“- I remember one time, she told me: “you think that I don’t know that I am not right (as in doing me wrong), but what are you going to do about it: you have nowhere to go!

    anita

     

    #411118
    farnaz
    Participant

    dear Anita

    did you really think im gonna judge you for what your mom said ?give me some credit . i know better than most people what our parents did or were is not our fault . i admit i judged people based on that in the past , but based on my experiences and what you shared so far here , there is no way im gonna judge you because of it and i appreciate your bravery to share it here , i know it`s very scary to be vulnerable when we were raised with that kind of parents we had.

    she was sitting in the apartment that night waiting for me, angry, and thinking how to hurt me best when I return, what words will hurt me the most. that reminds me of my dad , he was also there to ruin every momentum i got and made it about himself , he was more covert though and passive aggressive , he showed very overtly favorism toward me in front of my siblings , sometimes i feel like he did it because he knew his behavior made the relationship between me and them even worse and he discarded me in front of his wife because apparently she could make his life miserable and he was also delivering shame to me , that im not good enough and im disposable , i truly believed he did it on purpose specially in siblings situation  i m wondering what is your opinion about it ? he also told me as i once shared i should help my sibling keep their s*** together , its like i wasn`t suppose to have a life of my own , i was like a wife to her and a mom to my siblings ?

     I think that she had that smile at that night, and with that smiled, satisfied, she went t bed. i saw that sardonic smile in my dad`s too , when he was trying to get a reaction from us and succeeded about my mom too less than my dad though , maybe because of limited amount of time i had with her , i just wanted to add , my mom in others eyes were humble , shy and very very kind , the irony ?

    farnaz

    #411120
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    Did you really think I’m gonna judge you for what your mom said?“- I thought that maybe you will judge me for submitting a post that included a reference to sexually vulgarity. I thought that maybe you’ll stop posting because it (the reference)  would be too much for you.

    I admit I judged people based on that in the past, but… there is no way I’m gonna judge you because of it and I appreciate your bravery to share it here, I know it’s very scary to be vulnerable when we were raised with that kind of parents we had“- thank you! I want to reciprocate and not judge you if and whenever you share something that’s particularly difficult for you to share.

    my dad , he was also there to ruin every momentum I got and made it about himself“- I am sure that his relationship with you was all about himself just from what you already shared.

    “he showed very overtly favoritism toward me in front of my siblings, sometimes I feel like he did it because he knew his behavior made the relationship between me and them even worse… He also told me.. I should help my siblings to keep their s*** together“- reads to me that he thought that if he expressed favoritism toward you, giving you this “gift” of favor, you will owe him a gift- or a favor- in return: paying attention to him exclusively (no 0ther man in your life), and competing with his wife for his affection (an ego boost for him).

    and he discarded me in front of his wife because apparently she could make his life miserable“- seems like his thinking and behavior were ruled by convenience alone (whatever is easier): he favored you over your siblings because he wanted something from you and he didn’t fear them. His wife punished him for favoring you, so he feared her, and did what he thought he should do to please her (“delivering shame to me , that I’m not good enough and I’m disposable“).

    It’s like I wasn’t supposed to have a life of my own…?“- not if you having a life of your own inconvenienced him.

    my mom in others eyes were humble, shy and very very kind , the irony?“- just like my mother  Same irony.

    anita

    #411127
    farnaz
    Participant

    Dear Anita

    I thought that maybe you’ll stop posting because it (the reference)  would be too much for you.no , no , no , i admit that was disturbing for me , but im sorry for you , because you were in receiving end . she is the one to shame and im sure she doesnt see anything wrong with it , as my parents didnt .

     reads to me that he thought that if he expressed favoritism toward you, giving you this “gift” of favor, you will owe him a gift- or a favor- in return: paying attention to him exclusively (no 0ther man in your life), and competing with his wife for his affection (an ego boost for him). yes , i think you are right , and he supported me much longer than my other siblings , i felt like he meant you don`t need any man , and no men would do stuff i do for you , disgusting .

     His wife punished him for favoring you, so he feared her, and did what he thought he should do to please her the funny things about his wife was that she also think only about herself , she is a 12 years old in body of a sixty something woman , she was and is always comparing me with herself always competing always wanted to drag me down , im sure my dad had something to do with the jealousy , he was a master in mind f*****and im sure he played her insecurities and made her feel even worse , i believe if she was a better supply for him he wouldn`t bother to keep me around that long ,i think that would be better for me though .

    sorry if i cursed in this post

    have a good night sleep

    farnaz

    #411137
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    no, no, no, I admit that was disturbing for me, but I’m sorry for you because you were on the receiving end. She is the one to shame“- thank you. But please don’t take my thinking (that maybe you will not want to communicate with me anymore) personally: I didn’t think that because I think less of you, or because I think that you are not dependable, or anything like that. I thought what I thought simply because lots of people- in the forums-  disappear when a conversation becomes stressful.

    I felt like he meant you don’t need any man , and no men would do stuff I do for you, disgusting“- covert incest is indeed disgusting. A father has to be only a father to his daughter. Competing with men in the romantic context of his daughter’s adult life is violating his role as a father. Same in regard to my mother: she violated her role as my mother many times.

    He was a master in mind f***“- reading this instantly made me think of my mother.

    sorry if I cursed in this post“- not a problem as long as you don’t spell out the whole word. Typing f*** is .. fine and dandy.

    his wife.. is a 12 year old in the body of a sixty something woman… my dad… played her insecurities“- you grew up with disturbed children in adult bodies. Seems to me that you are now more of an adult than any of the children-in-adult-bodies with whom you grew up.

    anita

    #411143
    farnaz
    Participant

    dear Anita

     But please don’t take my thinking (that maybe you will not want to communicate with me anymore) personally: I didn’t think that because I think less of you, or because I think that you are not dependable, or anything like that. honestly first  i was offended a little bit  but i understand you most people wouldn`t and they would look at you like something should be so wrong about you i had this experience before.

    Competing with men in the romantic context of his daughter’s adult life is violating his role as a father that was disgusting and its been a few days im remembering all the other stuff he did and i tried to ignore all these times , his selfish acts toward me and others , i admit i try to do stuff because i know that would make him angry , nothing dangerous though , just being happy and joyful and not worrying  to make him or my mom pride from heaven , lol   , that would make him unhappy for sure .

    Seems to me that you are now more of an adult than any of the children-in-adult-bodies with whom you grew up. yes i think so too and i`m happy for it

    reading this instantly made me think of my mother could you elaborate ?if you wish

     Typing f*** is .. fine and dandy. thank you , i looked up dandy , i haven`t heard it before , lol

    Farnaz

     

    #411153
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    I understand you..“- it’s really nice that we both try to understand each other. And I am happy that you are happy about being an adult… So, we are both adults who are trying to understand each other (that’s more than a lot of people have available to them)!

    “‘reading this (“He was a master in mind f***”) instantly made me think of my mother’, could you elaborate?“- I mentioned Benny in my post the other day: one time he visited, she served him and I lunch and then happened to explode at him in rage, insulting him in most… personally insulting ways. After leaving her apartment and her brand of hospitality, he told me:  “your mother f***  your brain” (translated). I remember these words well because I never heard them before, and I knew then that it was true. I was particularly hungry for the truth at that time.

    I remember at one time I had this image: my mother inserted her hand into my brain and messing it up, stirring and disturbing my brain matter. Literally she did that in all kinds of ways, one was that whatever I expressed (however logical, however sensible, however honest, however TRUE), if it was inconvenient for her to hear it- and it often was- she mercilessly attacked my very thinking, my very logic, insisting on … proving to me that my very logic was wrong.

    She had to be Right and therefore, I had to be Wrong. It was a miserable existence to have her repeatedly attack my logic. I never, ever ended up with my logic on top: she had to win and she always did: she always had the last word (the last words, plural, there were so many words…). What resulted from all this is that- half a world away from her- and years apart, when I had thoughts going through my brain, I automatically suspected that my thinking was Wrong. And that was … not dandy at all.

    anita

    #411156
    farnaz
    Participant

    Dear Anita

    we are both adults who are trying to understand each other (that’s more than a lot of people have available to them , i totally agree with you , and i`m so happy to talk to you about our experiences, it certainly changed how i feel about the past experiences in positive way , not that i see them positive but as they are minus blaming myself for every thing , i hope our conversations also affect you positively .  obviously shame is still present but less intense.

    After leaving her apartment and her brand of hospitality, he told me:  “your mother f***  your brain was he mad at you because of your mother or was telling you , your mother is crazy because how she treated him?

    what i understand from what you shared is maybe you werent aware of your moms mistreatment that time and that was shocking for you that somebody realized that so quickly , she wasnt shy about showing her colors to him , and the situation must be embarrassing for you , obviously . im so sorry.

    my mother inserted her hand into my brain and messing it up, stirring and disturbing my brain matter. Literally she did that in all kinds of ways, one was that whatever I expressed (however logical, however sensible, however honest, however TRUE) thats the worst kind of mind f******, thats brutal and some people may never trust themselves again , and that`s the purpose of this behavior , my parents especially my dad did this and another nasty things liking gaslighting , withholding information , divide and conquer and ect …

    i` m curius about how you realized your mother is hurting you on purpose ??would you like to share it?

    me personally , i realized my dad had a personality disorder , most likely narcissism , not long ago , maybe 7 or 8 years , it was when i was abroad and i had a phone call from him , actually i dont remember what was the problem , it was 2 or months after i left home and i didnt have any contact with him  because of all drama his wife caused me and he was a willing participant , i was care free and relaxed for a while , after our conversation i was broke and miserable , and i literally typed why some people want to hurt you  intentionally  in google and then i found out about narcissism , i studied a lot about that and that was very helpful , after returning back months later i was prepared , and my dad sensed it , he was upset because he couldnt play mind games to me like before , and that made him to do worse to hurt me , i wouldnt survive if i didnt know about their tactics , its true that knowledge is power .

    farnaz

    #411161
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    I will read and reply to you Sun morning, have a good night!

    anita

    #411278
    farnaz
    Participant

    dear Anita

    thank you for note

    far

    #411285
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    I hope our conversations also affect you positively. Obviously shame is still present but less intense“-yes, our conversations affect me positively and the shame within me is a little less because of you: thank you!

    was he mad at you because of your mother or was telling you, your mother is crazy because how she treated him?“- the latter is what got through to me at the time, that was my interpretation. I had someone witness her behavior and call it what it is (when he said what he said, I now remember, he circled his finger at the side of his forehead to indicate Crazy). So, yes, he called her Crazy- not to her face though.

    What I understand from what you shared is maybe you weren’t aware of your mom’s mistreatment that time“- I was hurt and very disturbed by her behaviors, but no one ever said anything about it except three times, and the incident I described her was one of those 3 times. Unfortunately, nothing came out of it: no follow up conversation. (The other 2 times were (1) my father saying to me one  time: “your mother is crazy!“, and a friend of hers saying to her “This (something my mother did) is not good for her (me)”

    She wasn’t shy about showing her colors to him and the situation was embarrassing for you, obviously. I am sorry“- thank you. My mother’s true color was the color of hate, hate that was repressed, suppressed at times, and revealed in all its grandeur at other times.

    TRUE, that’s the worst kind of mind f***, that’s brutal and some people may never trust themselves again, and that’s the purpose of this behavior, my parents especially my dad did this and other nasty things like gaslighting, withholding information, divide and conquer and etc.“- my mother used logical fallacies in her arguments, meaning, arguments that can easily be proven to be illogical. One of these is to invalidate the opponent’s argument by pointing to an irrelevant personal trait of the opponent, while not addressing the substance  of the argument. My mother did a lot of that: pointing to and shaming the opponent for personal traits (physical looks like height, facial features, posture, the way a person walks, dresses, etc.) instead of addressing the substance of the argument.

    Also, my mother placed me in at least one chronic double bind dilemma: she complained a LOT about how difficult her life was (and it was!) and that selfishly, I was not helping her by cleaning the apartment, but when I cleaned, she complained- a LOT- about how inadequately I cleaned, telling me that I have “two left hands” and that I made her life even more difficult because she had to clean after me: I was damned if I did clean, damned if I didn’t. I am sure that there were other illogical fallacies and double-binds, and what you refer to as mind-games, probably gaslighting.., but I was spaced out so much of the time and I remember so little.

    I’m curious about how you realized your mother is hurting you on purpose? Would you like to share it?“- I already did: she smiled ever so slightly when she witnessed that I was hurt by something shameful that she said to me.

    me personally, I realized my dad had a personality disorder, most likely narcissism, not long ago, maybe 7 or 8 years (ago)… after returning back months later, I was prepared, and my dad sensed it, he was upset because he couldn’t play mind games with me like before… it’s true that knowledge is power“- congratulations for educating yourself and making it difficult or impossible for him to successfully inflict his mind games on you. Indeed, Knowledge is Power … when you apply it.

    anita

    #411300
    farnaz
    Participant

    dear Anita

    our conversations affect me positively and the shame within me is a little less im happy to hear it. there are  few people who can understand these family dynamics , not that its uncommon but its so painful to see it for what it is than they choose to close their eyes and numb themselves and im glad i found someone to share it.

     I was hurt and very disturbed by her behaviors, but no one ever said anything about it except three times in my case nobody saw anything wrong specially about my mom except my family members , my dad and my sister specially . my dads story was different , he was aloof and arrogant and pissed off a few people , but no body told me he is bad news either, i learned it by myself . as you wrote your note 2 days ago he would do what was easy and convenient for him , when he got married , her wife was and is always a drama queen  and in dividing  people , and he accompanied her , because of fear and i believe he was enjoying it too .that was undeniable that he was not a good guy after a while , i was very depressed and was taking like 8 tablets per day for anxiety ,depression and anger outburst in few years after my moms death and i couldnt discern between him being a jerk  or me exaggerating what i was experiencing  i coulnt rust myself and he used it . but when he got married , from not telling me and further problems we had ,it was obvious for me that he was  a bad father . to be honest i wouldnt care for her wife , she was as i said a fifty some thing , that time, who was competing me , she was a low life in my opinion , not anything going on in her life based on what she was fighting about , but my dad was making  her such a big person to hurt me and put me down maybe because i wasnt a good wife figure for him  when i learnt about my dads disorder , i learnt to react to it much better , i also had a studio downstairs so i could live without dealing with them all the time when i came back from university . if i didnt have that independence these 2 would make me crazy , im sure about it . her idea of good life is me being inferior to her and serving her and make my father  insult me in front her .and he was more than willing to do it . when he got sick , she basically mentally checked out my brother and i was taking care of him and his wife was going out with her family , in that time her brothers was visiting , she didnt even cook anything for my dad because he had no appetite , im serious . well i think they deserved each other . one i moved out from my childhood flat 2 weeks ago , she tried to contact me and get me to invite her over to stay with me , she mentioned it indirectly a few times but for what  i learnt about her she can be so demanding and delusional to actually expect me to that for her . she is scared alone , im so worried about her , lol .

    one thing about her that i hated was some people who knew about our relationship basically used it against me , maybe they didnt believe what she was doing because she should herself as a very loving person , very innocent and quiet , but they not only didnt believe me , they wanted to make it clear that they dont , including the aunt i talked about very posts older , the one who wanted to fix me with a very low class guy, my brother didnt also care until now that he is in the receiving end of her nastiness , i was so tired to have her in my life even when she is not physically and others used her as a weapon , so i cut ties with all these people , and i blocked her number too .

    congratulations for educating yourself and making it difficult or impossible for him to successfully inflict his mind games on you. Indeed, Knowledge is Power yes exactly and thank you

    i hope it wasn`t too long for you and i would be happy to hear your insights too .

    farnaz

    #411304
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Farnaz:

    I’m happy to hear it. There are few people who can understand these family dynamics, not that it’s uncommon, but it’s so painful to see it for what it is…“- very well said.. says I!

    As you wrote (in) your note 2 days ago, he would do what was easy and convenient for him… he was not a good guy… I couldn’t discern between him being a jerk, or me exaggerating.. couldn’t trust myself“- he was not a good guy and not a good father.

    Her idea of a good life is me being inferior to her and serving her, and make my father insult me in front of her… 2 weeks ago, she tried to contact me and get me to invite her over… I’m so worried about her , lol“- lol indeed, I would never invite her over!

    One thing about her that I hated was some people who knew about our relationship basically.. didn’t believe (me)… so I cut ties with all these people, and I blocked her number too” – good thing, you don’t want people who abused you, and people who invalidate your real-life experience of abuse… in your life!

    anita

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