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  • #386433
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    Ah, nothing outside of the average child’s mischief.

    Good, so you don’t feel guilty about having caused her pain, or anything like that?

    It’s just that not all mothers are as caring and involved.

    Do you know of a mother who hasn’t been too caring and involved with their children?

    Perhaps I’ve been trying to copy the traits my mother displayed during my upbringing, the absolute loyalty and utmost care no matter what, bearing with everything. While such behavior is only natural when directed towards your children, I guess one has to be more assertive with friends and lovers.

    Right. It could be that you behaved like an unconditionally loving mother with your former friend. You tolerated everything. You remained loyal, “no matter what”. Perhaps you took pity on him because his mother wasn’t loving and caring?

     

    #386434
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    “Perhaps you took pity on him because his mother wasn’t loving and caring?”

    That’s an interesting take and I didn’t think of it before. His mother basically dumped him when he was little and his father eloped shortly after he was born if I remember correctly, so he was raised by his grandparents. Not sure if this affected anything though.

    #386436
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    His mother basically dumped him when he was little and his father eloped shortly after he was born if I remember correctly, so he was raised by his grandparents.

    So he was almost an orphan.

    Not sure if this affected anything though.

    It almost certainly contributed to his possessiveness. And it could be that you sympathized with him, because you too were abandoned by your father when you were very young. You two are similar in that sense, only you had the luck that you had a loving and caring mother, and he didn’t.

    It seems to me that you took pity on him, but also saw yourself in him. As you were caring for him, you probably were also caring for your own inner child – the little boy who was abandoned by his father. You didn’t want to be like your father, so you could never abandon him. That’s why loyalty was so important to you.

    So it’s not that you didn’t have a healthy model of love, as I assumed earlier (you did, thanks to your mother), but rather, you loved him as your own child, because you recognized yourself in him.

    Does that make sense?

     

    #386442
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    Perhaps as a brother more than a child, although there were many times where I did sort of have to treat him like a child due to his behavior. This is one of the complaints that my ex voiced when it comes to my “poor treatment” of him, that I treat him like a child. That may have been true when he was throwing tantrums like one and there was just no reasoning with him. Ironically, she herself called him immature, selfish and prone to childish tantrums many times, based on their own interactions.

    I am slowly getting but every time I wake up, there’s this still this deep pain because of the harm she caused to my mother. It’s one thing for her to blindly believe whatever angry slander, delusions and exaggerations about me that he’s been throwing at her, as a way to justify her stockholm syndrome, cheating and monkey branching, but how is my mother at fault for anything?

     

     

    #386445
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    Perhaps as a brother more than a child, although there were many times where I did sort of have to treat him like a child due to his behavior.

    Right. It seems you were both mother and father to him. In your mother role, you were unconditionally loving and forgiving, in your father role you might have been strict and cold sometimes (after he’d throw a tantrum), but you’d quickly revert to your “motherly” love and caring for him. Would you agree?

    I am slowly getting but every time I wake up, there’s this still this deep pain because of the harm she caused to my mother. It’s one thing for her to blindly believe whatever angry slander, delusions and exaggerations about me that he’s been throwing at her, as a way to justify her stockholm syndrome, cheating and monkey branching, but how is my mother at fault for anything?

    How has she caused harm to your mother? If I understood well, it had something to do with her withdrawing her financial support?

     

    #386446
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    “Right. It seems you were both mother and father to him. In your mother role, you were unconditionally loving and forgiving, in your father role you might have been strict and cold sometimes (after he’d throw a tantrum), but you’d quickly revert to your “motherly” love and caring for him. Would you agree?”

    That may be so, though near the end I finally began to lose patience.

    “How has she caused harm to your mother? If I understood well, it had something to do with her withdrawing her financial support?”

    She actively involved my mother in those empty “plans and promises” she made, which made her compromise her health, time and happiness for a long time, working towards that ultimate goal which was never going to happen. There wasn’t any real financial support to speak of, just the promises of it and some breadcrumbs.

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Tineoidea.
    #386449
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    I’d like to revisit this fact that you’d treated him like a child:

    although there were many times where I did sort of have to treat him like a child due to his behavior. This is one of the complaints that my ex voiced when it comes to my “poor treatment” of him, that I treat him like a child.

    In general, when we treat someone like a child, we feel superior to them and we feel it’s our right to lecture them, tell them what to do, how to behave etc. You might have been very much invested in keeping him “on the right track” and saving him from himself, and in doing that you might have been patronizing him and treating him like a child. Would you say this is what happened?

    She actively involved my mother in those empty “plans and promises” she made, which made her compromise her health, time and happiness for a long time, working towards that ultimate goal which was never going to happen.

    I don’t really understand what kind of promise she gave to your mother, which would require your mother to compromise her health and happiness? Was your mother required to take up extra work, so that the “ultimate goal” would come to fruition?

     

    #386450
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    “In general, when we treat someone like a child, we feel superior to them and we feel it’s our right to lecture them, tell them what to do, how to behave etc. You might have been very much invested in keeping him “on the right track” and saving him from himself, and in doing that you might have been patronizing him and treating him like a child. Would you say this is what happened?”

    That’s perhaps how he saw it. I myself was pushed into a corner with his behavior and didn’t know what else I could try at that point, and I have tried a lot. He kept hurting her, himself and me because he simply refused to apologize and to treat her with basic respect since he thought she’s insidious and has ulterior motives, will hurt me and separate us two (all prophetic).
    Like I said before, those two started the conflict but the responsibility of solving it was placed on me.

    “I don’t really understand what kind of promise she gave to your mother, which would require your mother to compromise her health and happiness? Was your mother required to take up extra work, so that the “ultimate goal” would come to fruition?”

    It involved my mother being stuck in a place she didn’t like, doing ridiculously exhausting work which worsened her health. Because moving somewhere else would have compromised or set back those “plans”. She encouraged my mother to stick to it and that soon things will be much better.

    #386506
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    I myself was pushed into a corner with his behavior and didn’t know what else I could try at that point, and I have tried a lot. He kept hurting her, himself and me because he simply refused to apologize and to treat her with basic respect since he thought she’s insidious and has ulterior motives, will hurt me and separate us two (all prophetic).

    I understand that this is what happened in the situation with your ex. But I actually meant how you treated him in general, i.e. what the relationship dynamic was between the two of you even before he met your ex. If it was more like you were a parent, and he was a child whom you felt responsible for, then it might have been patronizing. You might have felt superior, in need to guide him, and as I said, save him from himself. For example, save him from the consequences of his “reckless behavior”.

    It seems to me that you were attached to helping him, you wanted to help him and save him at all costs. And so you kept involving him in common projects, even if he only caused trouble? I am just assuming here, but would you say this was the relationship dynamic between the two of you?

    Like I said before, those two started the conflict but the responsibility of solving it was placed on me.

    What did they actually expect from you? How should you have solved it?

    It involved my mother being stuck in a place she didn’t like, doing ridiculously exhausting work which worsened her health. Because moving somewhere else would have compromised or set back those “plans”. She encouraged my mother to stick to it and that soon things will be much better.

    So by turning against you, your ex also betrayed your mother. Your mother counted on her financial and possibly other help to get her out of her currently unfavorable situation. And this is what hurts you most – the harm done to your mother.

    I have a feeling that you cannot help your mother get rid of her exhausting work, because you too are struggling financially? Your ex promised both you and your mother to help you financially, but she only gave you “breadcrumbs” and then turned against you and went back on her word. So she left you stranded… is this what happened?

     

    #386507
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    “It seems to me that you were attached to helping him, you wanted to help him and save him at all costs. And so you kept involving him in common projects, even if he only caused trouble? I am just assuming here, but would you say this was the relationship dynamic between the two of you?”

    Not generally, no, although of course I did worry and care for him when things were tough on his side. Our general relationship was mostly carefree but also loaded with conflicts which ranged from small to big, and I did have to take a stern or distant stance during those. Like I said before, he was very bad at respecting boundaries and my wishes.
    When it comes to my project, he wanted to help and so of course I let him in. Sure there were times where he helped or tried to, but in the end he mostly kept causing issues, stirring conflicts with other people and always let me down when I tried to rely on him for actual work. Likewise he often challenged my authority while overblowing his own even though he wasn’t contributing much if anything. I’ve had a lot of people complain about his conduct and how he was sabotaging things with his thoughtless behavior, which in turn devalued my own work, which is also what my ex kept saying about him.

    “What did they actually expect from you? How should you have solved it?”

    She wanted me to mediate so I don’t lose a friend over her, while constantly provoking him. He wanted me to get rid of her and cave into his demands while constantly disrespecting her and me both. As to how, I’ve no idea, but I truly tried.

    “Your ex promised both you and your mother to help you financially, but she only gave you “breadcrumbs” and then turned against you and went back on her word. So she left you stranded… is this what happened?”

    Not only financially but also logistically, and to help us with the relocation to a better place.

    #386521
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    Our general relationship was mostly carefree but also loaded with conflicts which ranged from small to big, and I did have to take a stern or distant stance during those. Like I said before, he was very bad at respecting boundaries and my wishes.

    It cannot be both carefree and loaded with conflicts. And it cannot be carefree when he was threatening to kill himself…

    When it comes to my project, he wanted to help and so of course I let him in. Sure there were times where he helped or tried to, but in the end he mostly kept causing issues, stirring conflicts with other people and always let me down when I tried to rely on him for actual work. Likewise he often challenged my authority while overblowing his own even though he wasn’t contributing much if anything. I’ve had a lot of people complain about his conduct and how he was sabotaging things with his thoughtless behavior, which in turn devalued my own work, which is also what my ex kept saying about him.

    And in spite of his bad conduct and him causing more harm than good, you still got him involved in your latest project too (where he is now slandering you)? Or it’s one and the same project, which is still ongoing?

    She wanted me to mediate so I don’t lose a friend over her, while constantly provoking him. He wanted me to get rid of her and cave into his demands while constantly disrespecting her and me both. As to how, I’ve no idea, but I truly tried.

    BTW you earlier said he thought she was an impostor. In what way? What exactly did he have against her?

    Not only financially but also logistically, and to help us with the relocation to a better place.

    Does it mean she promised to help your mother too to relocate to her country, together with you? Your mother would come to live with the two of you, in the big house that was being built, or something like that?

     

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by TeaK.
    #386526
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    “It cannot be both carefree and loaded with conflicts. And it cannot be carefree when he was threatening to kill himself…”

    I guess it’s always been contradicting like this with him.

    “And in spite of his bad conduct and him causing more harm than good, you still got him involved in your latest project too (where he is now slandering you)? Or it’s one and the same project, which is still ongoing?”

    It is the same project, and of course he was removed from it a long time ago, when the conflict in between those two was ongoing and he pushed my hand. The slandering was done through mutual acquaintances.

    “BTW you earlier said he thought she was an impostor. In what way? What exactly did he have against her?”

    That it makes no sense for somebody to be so helpful, that her overdone friendliness feels very fake, that she will hurt me and separate us two. Things like that. He was worried that I was being played, and ultimately he was right.

    “Does it mean she promised to help your mother too to relocate to her country, together with you? Your mother would come to live with the two of you, in the big house that was being built, or something like that?”

    The house was for us two, although she did mention wanting to help with her accomodation and work somewhere close to us. Obviously after the breakup, I didn’t expect any grand plans anymore yet she still promised to keep helping in the ways she can (as those ideas of hers started even before we got romantically involved).
    Just a couple of days after that, she suddenly became very aggressive and petty, withdrew all the support entirely, said we aren’t friends anymore and many other hurtful things such as attacks on my personality (the same she fell madly in love with), but also to “not doubt her affection for me”.
    She even refused to take a quick look at some critical documents I made with her guidance and to give her opinion on those.

    During the turmoil, she sent me many mixed signals as she would go from angry and cold/cruel to nostalgic or even affectionate. From saying that she doesn’t want me in her life anymore to saying that she missed me badly and still loves me even if that diminished. Likewise she kept saying that she has no romantic feelings for my “friend” but is still on his side fully and wants to try things out.
    Later she said that with me she also lost her best friend but we can’t keep in contact largely because she doesn’t want to do that to him (his manipulation?), and also that interacting with me makes her very sad as she keeps remembering the life we had, which she missed a lot.

    He himself admitted to putting her against me and even trying to force our separation, he’s full of hate for me and obviously has been filling her head with all sort of delusions and slander. I am more than sure that he did manage to manipulate her a great deal while exploiting her strange obsession towards him (little brother figure?) and “wanting to take care of him” by playing victim, and he has a long history of victimizing himself in conflicts he himself creates.
    Still, not only she allowed for that to happen, she said that she actively chose to engage in it and that being objective or fair wasn’t her goal, against all my, and her own warnings.

    My only hope is that she’ll be able organize her mind and remember what we had, what happened during the conflict with him, his vile treatment of me, and how he actually is. And I hope that it happens sooner than later.
    By betraying and hurting me in the most cruel ways, she did the same to herself and her integrity. The lively, joyful, curious and good person I knew, became some sort of hateful husk (which she blamed on me), and it is truly devastating for me to see her like that.

    #386529
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    It is the same project, and of course he was removed from it a long time ago, when the conflict in between those two was ongoing and he pushed my hand. The slandering was done through mutual acquaintances.

    Earlier you said that she too is working on a mutual project with you (“We engaged in many activities together, even a mutual project. Simply put, we connected very well on most levels and could enjoy each other’s company even while working“).

    You said that she too noticed his problematic behavior at work (I’ve had a lot of people complain about his conduct and how he was sabotaging things with his thoughtless behavior, which in turn devalued my own work, which is also what my ex kept saying about him.)

    Does it mean that the three of you all work (or have worked) on the same project? You said earlier that she was “expecting you to work on multiple things at once”. Was in the work context – is she perhaps your supervisor?

    And also, when your “friend” started slandering you recently, did she believe him? Are you in danger of getting fired from the project?

    I’ll address the other points in your latest post later, but I just wanted to clarify this.

    #386532
    Tineoidea
    Participant

    It is the same project, yes. She was having work-related depression, as in having trouble finding the motivation to work and had a lot of free time on her hands, so I thought I’d invite her since it was a field she was interested in and could learn new skills. She indeed found it interesting and involved herself deeply, we did many things together and had plenty of fun.
    There was no “supervisor” to speak of, although everything is in my hands and I was showing her around, explaining things and so on. She had the full freedom to be creative, at her own pace.
    My “friend” was on a “break” from it (as in, not really caring), then he came back, noticed her and was furious about his “authority being challenged”, also started to belittle her work and challenge her, and she challenged him back.

    “And also, when your “friend” started slandering you recently, did she believe him? Are you in danger of getting fired from the project?”

    I don’t know what she believes or not since she’s been refusing to communicate and cut me off. Considering how her treatment of me shifted towards vile, I assume that he did fill her head with a lot of nonsense. What makes zero sense to me is that she seemingly forgot just how much she criticized his poor personality, social skills, work ethics, the way he treated others and the abuse he subjected her to. The very moment he stopped being nasty to her, she betrayed me and was on his side, despite not really knowing anything about him as their previous interactions have been very scarce and mostly involved fighting. Our mutual friends are also very critical of him as they have experienced first-hand his poor behavior and personality, and have advised her to not involve herself with him, which fell into deaf ears.
    As for being fired, it is my project and fully in my hands.

     

     

     

     

    #386537
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Tineoidea,

    It is the same project, and of course he was removed from it a long time ago,

    Who removed him? You, as the person in charge of the project, or someone else?

    BTW, have you taken steps to counteract his slandering and not lose your reputation among the people involved in your project?

     

    That it makes no sense for somebody to be so helpful, that her overdone friendliness feels very fake, that she will hurt me and separate us two. Things like that. He was worried that I was being played, and ultimately he was right.

    If she started offering her money and help for you and your mother to relocate to her country – before even getting romantically involved with you – that is indeed too much. You might have complained or told her about your difficult financial situation, and she, in an attempt to be “nice” and a “good samaritan”, offered her help. As I said, people who have the need to be liked by others tend to do this, where they promise a lot and then don’t deliver on it.

    So your “friend” was right that it was too much and even fake. He of course had his own selfish motives in mind when he warned you about her – he didn’t want to share you with anyone else. So his view is heavily skewed by his own selfishness and possessiveness, but in this instance, he was right.

    Obviously after the breakup, I didn’t expect any grand plans anymore yet she still promised to keep helping in the ways she can (as those ideas of hers started even before we got romantically involved). Just a couple of days after that, she suddenly became very aggressive and petty, withdrew all the support entirely, said we aren’t friends anymore and many other hurtful things such as attacks on my personality…. She even refused to take a quick look at some critical documents I made with her guidance and to give her opinion on those.

    My take on this is that after the breakup, she didn’t have the need to be liked by you any more. She became openly hostile. So she didn’t need to keep the pretense that she is a good samaritan and that she has your best interests in mind.

    During the turmoil, she sent me many mixed signals as she would go from angry and cold/cruel to nostalgic or even affectionate. From saying that she doesn’t want me in her life anymore to saying that she missed me badly and still loves me even if that diminished.

    That was in the transition period, while she was still not sure what she wants (she said something like “I don’t know myself”). She still wanted to appear kind (as if she were the same kind person who offered to help you and your mother so generously), but at the same time, her doubts about you have intensified. I think that’s why she was sending you mixed signals.

    He himself admitted to putting her against me and even trying to force our separation, he’s full of hate for me and obviously has been filling her head with all sort of delusions and slander.

    I think it would be worth, just for the sake of complete honesty with yourself, to examine if there was anything you did that went against the moral code, or best practices, in your field of work. Something that would give him an excuse to slander you. Or, if there were things you told him about her, that she didn’t know (e.g. that she is very important to you because she’ll solve your and your mother’s existential problems). And then he might have used that to tell her that you are with her only for the money. You see what I mean? Were there such things in your behavior or attitude, either private or professional, which might have painted you in a bad light, if taken the wrong way?

    My only hope is that she’ll be able organize her mind and remember what we had, what happened during the conflict with him, his vile treatment of me, and how he actually is. And I hope that it happens sooner than later.

    Are you expecting her to get back to you? Are you hoping that she’d still help you with your relocation? What are you expecting from her?

     

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