Dear Tineoidea,

I assume because he was never able to exercise such influence over me even though he was quite possessive and such in the past, or perhaps this kind of behavior was new to him, only happening after I cut him off and he got very upset at me.

It seems to me that you yourself had a soft spot for him, tolerating his possessiveness. You said that when you first noticed his negative influence on her, this is what happened:

I removed him from the spheres where they could see each other and interact. I took the fight to our internal front because I myself didn’t want to lose a lifelong friend and thought that he’d come to reason. During this period we have spent some time “going back to our roots” so to say, doing together activities we used to. I thought this would help him soften up and come to terms

It’s like you needed his approval and blessing to continue the relationship with her. You didn’t want him to be upset. You thought he’d come to terms with the fact that he won’t be the center of your attention any more, that you found someone who would take his place, someone more important than him. Clearly, the guy was possessive, but you allowed him to take that special place in your life and abuse your friendship. Maybe now is the time to consider why you allowed it and how you yourself are susceptible to manipulation by people like your former friend?

I wonder if there’s anything I could do right now. Just let it be and see if she contacts me in the future? Try to actively but subtly engage with her perhaps through e-mails? I feel like any little misstep could just make her gain even more distance or become even more angry. She’s been disregarding all my observations, feedback and counsel during this conflict after all.

I think that contacting her at this point would be counter-productive. She seems completely blinded by him, trusting everything he says. She sees you as the bad guy at this point.

One more things, when I attempted to talk to him and told him our story, he constantly said that the story she told him is quite different, that I’m lying and making things up, that he trusts her and not me. Here I couldn’t help but to wonder what she’s been telling him and she’s an accomplice in all of this. Previously she pretended to like something she loathed just because he shared it with her.

I wouldn’t trust a word of what he is saying. He is manipulating both of you, pitting you against each other. Both of you are his victims, only she fell for it much more deeply than you. She is almost certainly not a bad guy in this story, she’s not a narcissist, but a victim of a narcissist. I do hope she soon gets disappointed in him and starts seeing things more clearly again.

Dear Tineoidea,

I’d say that more than anything, I wanted him to reflect, apologize and own up to his nasty behavior. Perhaps you’re right to a degree though. When I bond, I bond for life so I can’t just discard my loyalty on the spot, more so after so many years.

A part of you wanted him to reflect and apologize. But a part of you wanted him to “soften up and come to terms” with the new situation – that he isn’t your number one, as he used to be, if I understood well? (“To him the issue was that she was “replacing” him as my closest friend.“) He was jealous and my impression is that you tried to appease him, reassure him that his friendship still means a lot to you and that you don’t want to lose him.

You said that he was possessive and controlling, and I assume he was like that throughout your friendship. How did his possessiveness manifest (if you care to talk about it)? Was he jealous of your other friends, your career, or other achievements  in your life? You did say he recently endangered your livelihood…

How did you feel about your friendship? Did you feel some guilt around him? I am asking because it may help you understand what made you susceptible to someone as possessive and as it turns out, toxic, as him.

Thinking back, cutting him off right away perhaps would have prevented all of this mess from happening.

Probably, but at least certain things came to light, e.g. that she is very easily manipulated due to her childhood wounds, and also that you need to re-evaluate your friendship with him. It would have come to light sooner or later, so perhaps better sooner than later.

I’ll cross my fingers and hope for her to come to senses sooner than later. All of this has been extremely wrong and I’ve been dealing with a strong sense of uneasiness and chest/heart pains daily.

I can imagine it’s been a huge stress for you to witness your relationship fall apart before your eyes, and not really understand what’s going on. I hope that we managed to pinpoint the main problem, and that things are a bit clearer now. I too hope you’ll  be able to talk to her, and that she snaps out of her delusion.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 7 months ago by Tee.

Dear Tineoidea,

He always tried to monopolize my time/attention and highly disliked it when I spent them on somebody else. He was also always critical of my other friends.
There was a project to which I invited him, that would then support my living. There he mostly alienated people with his reckless behavior and tried to defend himself when I told him to stop. He also kept making promises of helping me with this and that but never actually did anything I asked him of, even simple tasks, then complained about me “leaving him out of the decision making” when he himself barely engaged, had no idea about what was going on, encouraged me to drop the project and even went MIA for months.
So to say, the concept of personal accountability is mostly alien to him and he’s quick to anger.

Well, I have to say, with such friends, who needs enemies… His character is lousy, he is not just selfish and possessive, but unreliable and untrustworthy, and not taking responsibility for his actions, but accusing you of “leaving him out of the decision making”. He gets angry quickly, behaves recklessly, criticizes everybody else but has zero self-criticism and self-awareness.

He monopolizes your time, gets jealous and angry when you spend time with other people, accuses you of not spending even more time with him, and claims that he “was trying his hardest to be the best friend.” When in reality, he behaves nothing like a friend, but like a spoiled brat who only causes trouble.

What I felt though is that I had to erect barriers to fend off his possessive behavior. Yet I still cared a lot about his wellbeing and such.

You too, like your girlfriend, have a soft spot for him and gave him way too much leeway. You say you cared about his well-being. Does it mean you felt responsible for him, felt obliged to take care of him, in spite of his lousy character? Have you felt similarly obliged towards your family members perhaps?

Dear Tineoidea,

Hm, I’d say it comes from my loyalty.

Tell me more about loyalty. Why is it so important to you? Who taught you loyalty?

I’ve had no issues with cutting him off for weeks or even months when his behavior was completely out of hands. I must also say that there were times where he was very unstable or borderline suicidal over me telling him to cool off and cutting contact for a few days.

How did you feel when he threatened to kill himself if you cut contact? And how did you react? Resumed contact?

Dear Tineoidea,

It’s always been there and like I said before, I bond for life so I’m always the last one to leave a sinking ship. I try to make things work even at my own expense once I’ve bonded with somebody and I tend to put up with a lot, perhaps too much at times.

Yes, it appears you stayed in the relationship with your friend at your own expense, and now even at the expense of your relationship with your girlfriend. I am trying to understand what caused this sort of loyalty, which is self-destructive – you’d rather sacrifice yourself and your well-being than the relationship. What do you fear would happen if you’d put yourself first and protect your interests and your well-being, rather than the relationship?

Dear Tineoidea,

This whole situation certainly made me introspect a lot and I can see how I should cut less of a slack to some people. I’ve hurt my own self-respect many times while trying to mediate with people who don’t want to put any effort into it.

Good you’re realizing it. The reasons for this behavior probably lie in your childhood, but we don’t need to talk about it if you don’t want to. Important is that you realize it’s been harming you, and that you seek to change it.

I’m not sure if my relationship with him can be salvaged or rebooted at this point and I’m not feeling much desire for it.

From what you’ve written so far, your friend is quite toxic and pretty unaware and unwilling to own up to his mistakes. Why would you want to go back and be bitten again and again? In my opinion, he would need to undergo a profound change to deserve your friendship again…

When it comes to her though, I’m willing to give it a good try as long as she offers a genuine apology and wholeheartedly tries to build the trust anew.

It’s a good attitude. I hope she’ll see through him soon enough… I wonder how much you have shared with her (before it was too late) about your friend’s character? Did you warn her about his possessiveness, his reckless behavior and your resentment towards him, or you only had positive things to say about him (in the months preceding the conflict)?

Dear Tineoidea,

Plenty actually, and in fact she was a first-hand witness of his poor behavior and character, hell, she herself suffered from it. She knows that he caused me many troubles in the past. … I did warn her many times, she herself said that he does appear to be possessive when the whole circus began.

I am sorry to say this, but she reminds me of you, Tineoidea. This is what you said about her disregarding his abuse and going back for more:

I was intent on cutting him off since he simply refused to reason, apologize and own up, instead he kept doubling up on his abuse of her and made me lose more and more trust in him. Meanwhile, she kept wanting for things to work out, didn’t want me to lose an old friend, and so I kept trying to mediate.
The absurd thing here is that despite her being very aware of the situation and constantly voicing that interacting with him does her no good and that she should stop, she still kept doing it on and off, coming back bruised and in tears every time.

This sounds exactly like what you’ve been doing in your friendship with his guy: disregarding the abuse and always going back to him, for the sake of loyalty. You didn’t want to lose an old friend, and she too didn’t want you to lose an old friend. She echoed your attitude, but then took it to the extreme, where she lost the sense of reality. You at least know you’re not the bad guy, you know who you are. But she doesn’t, remember? (“I don’t know myself”)

He couldn’t fool you into thinking that you are a bad friend and a bad person (although he tried to). But he could fool her. It’s not entirely your fault, because it was her who chose to go back for more, but you sort of opened the door, you allowed this guy to be your friend and be a part of your realm (and even your intimate relationship with your girlfriend) and ruin things.

In a previous post, you weren’t sure if you should “salvage the relationship”. Well, I hope you see why you shouldn’t, ever, unless he changes radically.

Dear Tineoidea,

Even if she snaps back to reason and reaches out for me, I wonder if somebody like that could be a trustworthy partner for life, considering just how many times she betrayed me during a few weeks.

It’s a good question. It is strange how she could be so easily manipulated by someone whom she only knew online (btw, for how long did they know each other?). As if she didn’t know you at all, and trusted him more than she trusted you. I did ask you recently whether she perhaps wanted to extract more information about you from him, since he’s known you much longer than she did. But that’s probably not the case, since she knew you well enough? (She’s known me in and out for a long time, mentally, emotionally and physically).

And even if doubts arise, doesn’t it make sense to discuss them with your partner and closest friend instead of betraying him on the spot while fully switching to the side of your former abuser?

Yes, it makes sense, she should have talked to you instead of complaining to him. I wonder how much she actually trusted you and whether what he told her about you actually resonated with her? Maybe she agreed with him on certain things about you? Maybe she wasn’t honest with you and had reservations that you didn’t know about? That could explain why she so readily believed  him.

Plus, she had issues with her brother, which additionally hooked her into trusting your former friend. But I think just the brother issue alone wouldn’t have been enough to so completely fool her. The only logical explanation to me is that she must have had reservations about you that she never shared with you before.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 7 months ago by Tee.