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  • #384696
    Murtaza
    Participant

    So having a job or not is not the main issue.

    Oh yes it is, in order for me to be in a relationship in iraq i have to have some requirements, job is the first, and i can’t move anywhere without working a minimum 5 years or so to get enough money to live (if its illegally which is the optimal way to get a visa there)

     

    What I was rather saying is that it’s unlikely that you can have a loving relationship considering your apathy

    Yes this might be true, by the mindset i have, no woman would want to live with me, most of people care about life and want to live and do things, things that might involve thier partner, things that i might not like, if this is the case, then yes, its totally on me and my beliefs, they might live miserablly.

     

    everywhere must be brainwashed and cruel and will mistreat me. Wherever I go, there is no point in trying because the result will be the same. I will be hurt.”

    Im really not botherd much about people being brainwashed, and i don’t see them as cruel, to me people are extra, not a neccessaity, i believe most of them have good intentions and are good, and believe me, they can’t hurt me, and if they did, it will be on me, because i allowed them, evil exist, i don’t go around blaming evil for existing, i blame myself for being hurt by such evil.

     

    When i loved sara, a friend of mine, i was gonna work for her, just to not give her a reason to dislike me, i did things for her, things that didn’t mean anything to her, i didn’t know how to show her love, everytime i tried she ended up being more defensive, ignoring me.

     

    What i did, being welling to work, to sacrifice my time, something that i highly value, was wrong, i would never do that again, sacrifice myself for another person, no matter how much i think he deserve, i would only subscribe to such idea again, if the person willing to do the same for me.

    #384776
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    Im really not botherd much about people being brainwashed,

    Well, you actually mentioned it a lot recently:

    everyone is so brainwashed about worshipping thier parents, not because any logic, but because society tells you to do so.

    anita suffering wasn’t only by her parents, i even dare say it wasn’t that at all, i like to imagine evil exist, and it could be infected to a child, what hurt her the most (in my opinion) is the normal people, the constant misunderstood and blaming and shaming, because she expected to be helped by them, because she expected them to be good, and they are, thier intention is good, society just brainwashed thier values and beliefs, that made them misunderstood and blame her for her own suffering, normal people who did those evil things to her, they aren’t so good are they?

    I perfer to choose my own suffering, i perfer to foucs my energy and time on something i control, myself, not other brainwashed people, get them to like me, act in a certain way, to be accepted

    You do believe that people are brainwashed – at least the people in your own country. You believe they are programmed to respect their parents, and you don’t want to respect someone who has hurt you and doesn’t deserve respect. And you’re right about that. You don’t need to “bow down” to those people. Your anger towards them is justified.

    But what you are doing – is you are quick to blame yourself for having been hurt by them:

    Im really not botherd much about people being brainwashed, and i don’t see them as cruel, to me people are extra, not a neccessaity, i believe most of them have good intentions and are good, and believe me, they can’t hurt me, and if they did, it will be on me, because i allowed them, evil exist, i don’t go around blaming evil for existing, i blame myself for being hurt by such evil.

    People have hurt you – your parents, your siblings, your relatives and your friends – and it’s NOT your fault. They did bad, evil things to you, and it’s not your fault.

    You are blaming yourself for having been vulnerable. You are blaming the little boy Murtaza for not being strong enough not to be hurt. You see how unfair it is to the little boy Murtaza – blaming him for something they did to you?

    And it’s not some abstract evil that did those things to you – it’s the real people, of flesh and blood. It’s your own flesh and blood, it’s the people who were supposed to love you and care for you. You have all the reasons to be mad at them.

    But you suppressed your anger at them, and are angry at everyone else – including those who truly want to help you (including us on this forum). And you are angry at yourself too, for being weak and needy.

    So your anger – which is rightful and justified – is directed at wrong people. Can you see that?

     

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by TeaK.
    #384788
    Peter
    Participant

    you think i feel im a victim and won’t do anything about my suffering, you are wrong,

    i think its the truth im a victim and i won’t do anything not because of that, but because life is shit, and i hate it all, and you know what, fuck connection, i don’t want it, you can have it.

    I’ve read that over a few times… you are a master of…   You arrived at the same conclusion and was still able to say I was wrong.
    You are a victim and not going to do anything.

    Your reasons of why you won’t do anything don’t matter… unless your looking for some one to argue about your reasons and convince you otherwise,… if true here you show your at war with your ‘you’ as you have shown  no intention of changing your mind – that would be doing something and you won’t do anything.  You don’t want connection, Life is shit  ‘and should not be’ . You shake your fists at a g_d you do not believe in and deny the thing you want.

    Not a unique response to Life as it is.  No is in my opinion a valid response if unskillful. So what is your point? What do you want? Permission?

    I see your posts as my shadow. My tendency to depression and giving up, wanting to get off this ride, hopelessness… the contraction of doing the things I do not wish to do and doing the things I wish not to do.  Perhaps a difference is that I usually realize when I’m doing those things.

    Anyway if your going to be Stuck, embrace your stuckness. Whining about stuckness is just another contradiction.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Peter.
    #384791
    Peter
    Participant

    Anyway Murtaza I do want to thank you. I don’t think I’ve help you in anyway but you have in your way helped me.

    The darkness and contradictions I read into your posts are very much within me as well and I would be lying If did not admit that I have at times also reached the same conclusions. I ought not to pretend otherwise.

    #384802
    Murtaza
    Participant

    You do believe that people are brainwashed

    I don’t have to believe it, its true, and i provided many reasons to why.

     

    You believe they are programmed to respect their parents

    Don’t let that makes you think i feel superior to them, or i don’t respect such people just because i was inherited different experiences that lead me to what i believe now, i sure can be mean online, and say things i don’t really mean, but im not like that in real life, i never disrespect anyone, or feel superior to anyone, unless his belief gonna be in the way of our relationship (which happened to few of my friends) i won’t back off knowing he is a good person and deserves my time.

     

    is you are quick to blame yourself for having been hurt by them

    I don’t blame my old self for being hurt, i was a kid, i couldn’t defend myself, i only blame my current self, the aware one, and i don’t do it to just blame, i do it to learn and change, i believe no one could hurt you unless you allow him, if a person hurts you, check yourself first, in the end people are external and outside of your control, you will have to adopt to them, or see different people, something not available to me.

     

    You are blaming yourself for having been vulnerable

    When i blame myself for being vulnerable in the past (two years or so) i know there is nothing i can do about it to change it, but i see is as a lesson to be learned from, every experience is a lesson, and lately there was some harsh lessons i learned, really harsh, one that love is an exchange, you have to meet certain requirements for that exchange (mostly), there is more lessoned i learned, it can be long if i stated them, but im really glad i learned them, im reallg glad for those painful experiences the past few years, because now i know the truth, without illusions and fantasies, and i made a decision, i will do it when life gets worse, it hasn’t yet.

     

    You are blaming the little boy Murtaza for not being strong enough not to be hurt.

    No, i feel empathy for him, i feel sorry for him, that he lived this horrible life, and i want to make it easy for him, this is why i choosed a life with little problems and little pain, because i know he is already in pain, and don’t want more, thats one of the reasons why i can feel motivated to live life, because it would mean intentionally hurt him for a hope, an idea, i sadly not very convinced of any of those ideas and hopes, so its like both of myselfs are against this.

     

    It’s your own flesh and blood, it’s the people who were supposed to love you and care for you

    Yes its true, but what can i do about it? My own flesh and blood is shit, so what? I don’t let that decide my destiny or predetermine my life, i don’t blame them for it, because i know they were programmed to do so, i understand where they are coming from, i understand why they did what they did, and i see no fault of theirs.

     

    Though i acknowledge they did something bad (acknowledge, not blame).

     

    But you suppressed your anger at them, and are angry at everyone else

    The reason why im angry at everyone else, because of my experiences, i still mad at my parents, i didn’t superss it, its just a logical anger, not feeling oriented one.

     

    The reason why im angry at society, because they told me god exist, they told me workout helps (online) they told me doing this and that helps, it all turned out to be wrong, i had to figure things for myself, i honestly trust NO ONE with my life, i won’t listen to any advice or instructions from anyone, only me and the few people that know me, that i think are ok to do so (which just incase you wondering, they don’t, my little sister knows me, knows exactly how to be me, never advice or tell me what i should do)

     

    And you are angry at yourself too, for being weak and needy.

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Yes im angry at myself, but not because of that, but because i live miserablly and developed apsthy instead of actually doing something about it, i don’t want to do the right thing, but won’t suicide either, so sure im angry at myself.</p>
     

    So your anger – which is rightful and justified – is directed at wrong people

    Norimes who always suggest the things that didn’t help me, only made my life worse, imagine wasting time of your life because someone thought something about it.

     

    #384809
    Murtaza
    Participant

    you are a master of…

    Continue please.

     

    You are a victim and not going to do anything.

    Is that the ultimate truth or just your point of view?

     

    If it is the ultimate truth, and im sure you have proofs, why no one agree with you?

     

    Your reasons of why you won’t do anything don’t matter…

    Ofcourse they do, the reasons determine the solution, to solve any problem, you first need to look for the reasons, and fix those, my reasons isn’t because im a victim as i stated, i studied my life, i think i know more.

     

    But you know what, lets assume you are right, and it is infact the reason, the result is the same, im not going to change it. The proof is my current desires and goals.

     

    Life is shit  ‘and should not be’

    If life is shit, why should i live it? Im not a slave to it, you always say “play” without providing why, you never said anything that let me re consider my goal, to re consider my ideas.

     

    So what is your point? What do you want?

    Connection, i already stated it, im so desperate that the only way i could get it is when i argue about my life and let the other person see my point of view, to understand why i choose what i choose.

     

    Permission?

    No, im already fixated on what i choose.

     

    I see your posts as my shadow

    If thats true, you would understand me, which you didn’t.

     

    Perhaps a difference is that I usually realize when I’m doing those things.

    Yes, you are better.

     

    Anyway if your going to be Stuck, embrace your stuckness.

    I did, but i realized how wrong and bad it is to embrace such thing, i realized what i had to sacrifice, to live with such consequences, is in no way a good life.

     

    Whining about stuckness is just another contradiction.

    You say contradiction as if it is something really bad and we ought not to do, we are full contradictions

     

    Also whats so bad about whining, my life is shit, and im on the edge, whats so bad about telling other people why its shit and why im gonna do it, im not asking for permission, nothing will change my mind about what im about to do, i know it as a true unchanging fact, my point here wasn’t to change my mind, but understanding and attention, things i never get in my life and so hard to have in my case.

     

    and contradictions I read into your posts are very much within me as well and I would be lying If did not admit that I have at times also reached the same conclusions

    If that is true, do you think your response would make since if we switch rules?

     

    If it is true that you had similar experience, why i didn’t ended up agreeing with your logic? Maybe im too stupid? But why im too stupid? Could you explain how to change this stupidity (im assuming this, the worse about myself to prove a point).

     

    this is called critical thinking, check it out.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Murtaza.
    #384815
    Peter
    Participant

    If it is true that you had similar experience, why i didn’t ended up agreeing with your logic?

    I don’t think your great a empathy (could be wrong) but more to the point that you don’t want anyone to agree with you. You wish to be unique in your suffering.

    You are a victim and not going to do anything.  Is that the ultimate truth or just your point of view?

    Your confusing me. You have said multiple that “You are a victim”.  So yes I believe you when you say that you experience your ‘you’ as being a victim. It is my impression that this is the foundation of your life philosophy, stuckness and anger centers on you being a victim. (could be wrong)

    Is it a ultimate truth? I don’t think so, but that is for you to answer.  I’ve seen people change their point of view and so their outlook but you might be right when you say your not capable of such a thing for the many reasons you have given. Even if you were capable you have said multiple times that you wouldn’t try.  Confusing to me your either capable or not… but your going to argue that you are capable but nothing will change, so why bother. Essentially then not capable, or the question of capability is moot.  You have decided to be right.

    As with most of the dialog its just going to go in circle. Even when you agree you tell yourself, sorry your you, and us you don’t

    When I thanked you for reveling my own shadow I wasn’t thanking you for agreeing with me, or ‘seeing’ me, or understanding me…. I don’t need that from the virtual world. We will always speak past each other. But even in that, the opportunity to learn something about one self  was available.

    So thanks for engaging even if it turns out I was only talking to myself.

    #384821
    Murtaza
    Participant

    but more to the point that you don’t want anyone to agree with you. You wish to be unique in your suffering

    If thats true i wouldn’t feel so good when anita agreed with me, to me agreeing with my point of view meaning the other person understands it.

     

    I also had a friend of mine who had similar suffering, to me it doesn’t matter what happened to you, its the result, my result was similar to his, though the only difference is that i developed apathy and a pholishopy, he suicide, if you feel that im saying this as if im better, i actually think he is better, he didn’t change his given feelings and desires in order to live, i did, and the cost and consequences will continue to be payed by me.

     

    Also another friend, alive, who also im proud to say im like him, even anita im so proud that we have so similarities, not because im good, but because i think she is so great and i must be so lucky to even have some qualities of hers.

     

    Also my sister, i can go on and on, of providing proofs that its not my belief of uniqueness, it’s the actual people, otherwise there wouldn’t be anyone to agree with me.

     

    Your confusing me. You have said multiple that “You are a victim”

    I will make it simple for you, lets take an example, a raped person is a victim right? Would you call him a victim or would you say “no don’t say you are a victim, that will make you trapped in a victim mentality”?

    I acknowledge that i was a victim just like a raped person acknowledge that he is a victim.

     

    Now let me explain why i think the victim definition works for me, similar to rape, bad things happened to the person which was outside of his control and couldn’t do otherwise, and he has to deal with the consequences of this thing the rest of his life, i have been raped, not physically, but mentally, by many ideas and beliefs, by shame and gulit, i was too young to understand, by my mother and father, by my environment, my mother the so insecure person that will blame a child just so she can feel good about herself, that will use him to satisfy her needs and not care about his needs.

     

    These things, ultimately made me choose what i choose now, if you claim that your suffering is similar, then you would ended up just like me, even if i indeed have victim mentality and it is the reason why im so miserable, it wouldn’t matter now, because it won’t be change by me.

     

    that this is the foundation of your life philosophy, stuckness and anger centers on you being a victim. (could be wrong)

    Maybe you are right, does that change anything ?

     

    This actually might be true because i did felt this victim mentality thing in the past, and my mother also has it, but that wouldn’t change anything i said, all my arguments and proofs still valid, life is still dull and silly, life still has no purpose and no point, all things are boring and exhausting.

     

    I don’t need that from the virtual world.

    I sadly do, i need the understanding and the attention, the connection, to be heard and understood and be seen.

     

    So thanks for engaging even if it turns out I was only talking to myself.

    Because you refuse to put yourself in my position and understand where im coming from, dismissing my arguments for no reason, and talk so abstract that the only one that can understand is you, is you.

     

    Even with teak i was getting somewhere, and her replays actually answers mine, you don’t even answer me, just say something that i don’t even understand how it relate to my post.

     

    But im glad you answerd in the first place, you are a nice person after all, and i respect you.

     

    #384822
    Peter
    Participant

    but more to the point that you don’t want anyone to agree with you. You wish to be unique in your suffering

    If that’s true i wouldn’t feel so good when anita agreed with me, to me agreeing with my point of view meaning the other person understands it.

    Did you feel good, do you still feel good about that?

    Your confusing me. You have said multiple that “You are a victim”

    I will make it simple for you, lets take an example, a raped person is a victim right? Would you call him a victim or would you say “no don’t say you are a victim, that will make you trapped in a victim mentality”?

    I acknowledge that i was a victim just like a raped person acknowledge that he is a victim.

    A person  can be a victims of crimes and not take on the persona of victim, not ‘be’ a victim.  When I read through your posts I hear a person who’s life philosophy is rooted in ‘being’ a victim. I could be wrong.

    Now let me explain why i think the victim definition works for me, similar to rape, bad things happened to the person which was outside of his control and couldn’t do otherwise, and he has to deal with the consequences of this thing the rest of his life, i have been raped, not physically, but mentally, by many ideas and beliefs, by shame and gulit, i was too young to understand, by my mother and father, by my environment, my mother the so insecure person that will blame a child just so she can feel good about herself, that will use him to satisfy her needs and not care about his needs.

    These things, ultimately made me choose what i choose now, if you claim that your suffering is similar, then you would ended up just like me, even if i indeed have victim mentality and it is the reason why im so miserable, it wouldn’t matter now, because it won’t be change by me.

    The reality is that for most things Life happens to us that our not of our choosing and control. We control very little even if or limited linear ego consciousness likes to think it can. We do not choose to be born, our parents, the traditions born into…. From such a perspective we are all victims of circumstances. So what?

    How it is that so many rape victims transcend the experience?

    Your making a huge assumption that everyone with the same life experiences as you would come to the same conclusions as you.  You assume that someone can be exactly the same as another and experience the same conditions the some way. A quick observation of others clearly shows that is not true. No snowflake is alike.   You also assume that only such a person could possible ‘understand’ and know you. This is a very limited definition of the word ‘understanding’ and “understood”.

    that this is the foundation of your life philosophy, stuckness and anger centers on you being a victim. (could be wrong)

    Maybe you are right, does that change anything ?

    I don’t know… I suspect that if change is possible we have to own our thinking and beliefs. We don’t tend to do something that doesn’t work for us in some way, even if it harms us. Something in your Life philosophy is working for you but only by owning it will you discover what that is. Only then might you ask the question if it really working for you or against you. It not uncommon to work against ones ‘good’.

    “Does it change anything” this triggers my shadow of despair as I also wonder if change is possible, and what’s the point… I’m notice that I’m projecting my need that change is possible onto your posts. I am not saying we are the same, or that I ‘know’/’understand’ you when I talk of shadow.  Actually when we project its not possible to see the other, we are only looking at ourselves we do not recognize.  A shadow consists of the things we do not want to see in ourselves.  Oddly that can be the worst things we fear as well as the best..

    I read your posts and find myself imagining a person that has surrendered to being life’s victim.  That is trap I’m afraid of falling into…. again. In those worst moments I wish I had not been born and long for death… but I don’t do anything about it and I don’t live as if I were dead. I imagine a person that lives as if dead would live fearlessly with nothing to lose yet I am full of fears.  I suspect my thoughts of death is really a desire for change which I don’t always believe is possible which I know is a contradiction. Like so many I work against myself.  In that I imagine we are the similar.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Peter.
    #384830
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Did you feel good, do you still feel good about that?

    Yes, everytime i think of how alone i am, a voice tells me “what about anita” “what about your sister” this might sound small to you, but its big to me, i can explain further but i will end it here.

     

    A person  can be a victims of crimes and not take on the persona of victim, not ‘be’ a victim

    See, you didn’t read my post, you only read “i am a victim” and nothing further, if you go above i explained why i don’t feel like a victim but i am indeed a victim, just like my mother was a victim and my father is a victim

     

    When I read through your posts I hear a person who’s life philosophy is rooted in ‘being’ a victim

    Because thats all you see, thats the simple explanation, you don’t want to read the long in depth explanation, you want me to be a victim so give a good simple answer to my problem.

     

    This is why i hate labels, because you can’t see behind the label of victim, you think this is a bad word, you can’t see the truth behind the definition of this bad that you have in your mind.

     

    From such a perspective we are all victims of circumstances. So what?

    And we are indeed, its just for some of us, those circumstances didn’t produce a person like me, the proof is most people are not like me.

     

    How it is that so many rape victims transcend the experience?

    Because they had the desire to change, they had the motivation to do so, the goal.

     

    You compare a whole life of being fucked up to a single bad experience?

     

    Not to say this bad experience won’t effect you that bad, but you miss my point, which it was (if the rape side effects were a lifetime thing, would you dare say to the person you are not a victim of that rape?)

     

    Is he or is he not a rape victim? Leave the victim mentality aside, when you ask him why he is about to suicide, and he tells you because life is shit, when you ask him why life is shit, he might tell you he was raped and ever since the side effects were unliveable with, how is this his fault? Is he not a victim of that side effects of the rape? Why should he live with such side effects? One of the side effects is apathy, strong apathy, that won’t let him care about his life, please tell me you get it.

     

    Your making a huge assumption that everyone with the same life experiences as you would come to the same conclusions as you.

    Not only experience, genes and environment, he has to have the same dealt hand, kinda the same environment, but i honestly don’t care about what he had, i only care about the result of him, if he had similar experience and genes and environment yet he didn’t ended up like me, i would either think its impossible, or that he had different genes and mindest.

     

    Unlike other people, i believe the self/mind/consciousness, isn’t something earned, all of these are things that are giving to you, one good proof, do you think Schopenhauer would become the Schopenhauer if you changed his life a bit? Added a good loving family? He was created to be Schopenhauer, his views and pholishopy was  effected by his life and past.

     

    In a fair world is he not a victim of that passmstic mindset? That lead him to be alone most of his life, He didn’t choose it in the end.

     

    You also assume that only such a person could possible ‘understand’ and know you

    You forgot “you also assume WITH EVIDENCE”

     

    Would a normal person accept a person who says that he is going to kill himself? Or the value that “all lives matters (for no reason but our own)” would kick in, and start to speak instead of him, his logic and mind.

     

    This is a very limited definition of the word ‘understanding’ and “understood”.

    How many people are ok if you provide them a full and well established argument to why death is the only way to help someone?

     

    I will bet 90% would say no, not because of argument flaw, but because they were told that life actually matters, and they actually have no proof of this claim.

     

    It not uncommon to work against ones ‘good’.

    I disagree, biologically we are meant to seek our good and what benefits us, most of healthy minded people do, unless you really hate yourself or were programmed to please people instead of your own.

     

    My pholishopy has its negative sides, but the positive are far more, if you disagree provide evidence, i was a people pleaser, care too much about what other do, can’t do anything out of fear of being judge, so many things that i fix with apathy and my pholishopy.

     

    that I’m projecting my need that change is possible onto your posts.

    Why? Why you feel the need to project your truth? Can’t you just give me a one that i can accept in my world view? Or objective one (if that’s ever possible)

     

    I will do that for you,

    1-humans has needs, if he won’t get those, he become miserable

     

    2- knowing that, this human will never get his needs, doesn’t matter why

     

    3- that human gonna live miserablly for his whole life.

     

    Objectively, he should noy live.

     

    If you have any problem with any of these point, say why.

     

    I imagine a person that lives as if dead would live fearlessly with nothing to lose yet I am full of fears

    This is where you project, you think that i am full of fears and a has a victim mentality.

     

    The thing is, i have no fear, not one that makes me not wanna do anything, i only have disgust,  i have nothing to lose, i do anything that i want to, the thing is.. i don’t want anything, i don’t want to pay any price that i don’t want to pay.

     

    My problem isn’t fear, it is lack of motivation, lack of goodness in the world, lack of order, lack of beauty, everything is so boring and dull, everything is so exhausting and not worth my time or effort, where is the victim mentality? Where is the fear?

    #384852
    Peter
    Participant

    I believe I told you we would be talking across each other

    I imagine a person that lives as if dead would live fearlessly with nothing to lose yet I am full of fears

    This is where you project, you think that i am full of fears and a has a victim mentality.

    I wasn’t talking about you I was talking about myself. Thus my pervious comment on Empathy I don’t think you ‘see’ others.

    Why? Why you feel the need to project your truth?

    I don’t think you understand what I mean by projection and shadow work. Projection is something that happens and tends to be unconscious. By acknowledging my projections I was attempting to pull them back and take ownership of them.  I fully admitted that with some self reflection that I realized I was projecting onto your posts.  that I wasn’t talking to you I was essentially talking to myself. Sorry it wasn’t ‘all about You’.

    I don’t know you, I can only read your posts. Your post do not come across as indicating you are happy or that your life philosophy is working for you.  If I’m wrong the fault may not just be mine but your communication. I suggest you do some more research on how people often unconsciously work against their best interest.

    If your happy being unhappy great, I don’t want to go on that ride anymore.

    I’ll leave it like that

     

    It not uncommon to work against ones ‘good’.

    I disagree, biologically we are meant to seek our good and what benefits us, most of healthy minded people do, unless you really hate yourself or were programmed to please people instead of your own.

    #384902
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Ok peter, have a nice day, if it means anything, thank you.

    #384928
    TeaK
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    I don’t blame my old self for being hurt, i was a kid, i couldn’t defend myself, i only blame my current self, the aware one, and i don’t do it to just blame, i do it to learn and change, i believe no one could hurt you unless you allow him, if a person hurts you, check yourself first, in the end people are external and outside of your control, you will have to adopt to them, or see different people, something not available to me.

    In fact, we can be hurt, but we can heal from it. If someone stabs you, you are hurt but hopefully you can heal. If someone betrays you, i.e. hurts you emotionally, you can still be hurt, but with self-awareness, you can heal. You can also take measures, e.g. stop contact with that person, so that you wouldn’t be hurt again. Or you can speak to the person and clarify, because sometimes we get hurt and offended when in fact we shouldn’t be, because the person didn’t mean anything bad.

    Anyway, what I am saying is that we can be hurt, and it’s not a sign of weakness, but we can also heal. If you close yourself in advance from love and relationships – anticipating that you will be hurt – that’s what’s not healthy. It’s like not getting out in the street at all, because you might be stabbed. Better approach is to go out, be open to experiences (with certain precautions in place), and only deal with your wounds if you are stabbed.

    lately there was some harsh lessons i learned, really harsh, one that love is an exchange, you have to meet certain requirements for that exchange (mostly)

    Yes, love is an exchange, and it doesn’t mean it’s a filthy or immoral exchange. It’s true that some people ask from us to suppress ourselves – which is toxic (specially if those people are our parents). But some people appreciate us for who we are, so a relationship with them is possible. But yes, love is giving ad taking, it’s an exchange.

    No, i feel empathy for him, i feel sorry for him, that he lived this horrible life, and i want to make it easy for him, this is why i choosed a life with little problems and little pain, because i know he is already in pain

    You haven’t treated/healed his wound, you’re simply protecting him from further pain, i.e. from the wound getting deeper. But the original wound is still there, affecting your life. When I was talking about healing, I meant healing the original wound.

    Yes its true, but what can i do about it? My own flesh and blood is shit, so what? I don’t let that decide my destiny or predetermine my life, i don’t blame them for it, because i know they were programmed to do so, i understand where they are coming from, i understand why they did what they did, and i see no fault of theirs.

    Though i acknowledge they did something bad (acknowledge, not blame).

    It’s a good approach not to blame them, because blaming keeps us stuck. However, they still inflicted a wound upon you. It is their fault, even though you rationally understand the reasons why they did it. Still, the only way to really process this kind of betrayal and wounding, and to be healed, is to include emotions as well. To express anger at them (justified anger) in a safe, therapeutic setting. Even online therapy can provide that possibility. I know you’re not interested in healing, but I am just saying what would need to be done – if you were interested.

    The reason why im angry at everyone else, because of my experiences, i still mad at my parents, i didn’t superss it, its just a logical anger, not feeling oriented one.

    I see. You don’t feel the emotion of anger because you rationalized it by finding excuses for them. It’s like you froze that emotion..  but it seeps out, and it comes out in your interactions with other people. And also, you are angry at the entire world, you even despise the world, saying things like: “lack of goodness in the world, lack of order, lack of beauty, everything is so boring and dull, everything is so exhausting and not worth my time or effort”.

    The anger, bitterness and frustration, that you rightfully feel towards those who hurt you, is projected at the entire world and practically all people.

    The way about it would be to feel and express your justified anger at those who hurt you, in a safe therapeutic setting, so it could be transformed and healed. You then wouldn’t feel angry at the entire world… you would see things through a different lens.

    The reason why im angry at society, because they told me god exist, they told me workout helps (online)

    Workout usually does help. But it didn’t help you? What did you expect to gain from workout, and how were you disappointed?

     

    #384933
    Peter
    Participant

    Board

    It not uncommon to work against ones ‘good’.

    I disagree, biologically we are meant to seek our good and what benefits us, most of healthy minded people do, unless you really hate yourself or were programmed to please people instead of your own.

    Perhaps that might be true if man was only a biological creature that was mostly unconscious and functioned from the position of the Id.

    In what I call beginning stories like Genesis the birth of consciousness comes at the price of being ejected from paradise. (I’m using the story as metaphor not literal historic fact so don’t outright disagree with me or tune out based on that).

    The eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not the same ‘knowing’ what is good and evil. It is this confrontation with ‘knowing of’ but not ‘knowing what is’ that consciousness arises. – Consciousness and the problem of opposites, duality, are connected. No confrontation or tension, no consciousness.  Consciousness and the garden can’t exist together.

    A baby slowly becomes aware of its being as separate from mother (garden), though the tensions of opposites. A baby relieves itself which experienced as good notices unconsciously mother face of disgust reacting to the smell. Something that feels good is reflected (mirrored) back as not ‘good’, not smiling, a something becomes conscious… ‘knowledge of’ but not ‘knowledge of what is’, just a ‘something’, a feeling…

    The reaction to a wakening consciousness of the knowledge of but not what is good and bad, is shame. That something about our being, our naked authentic selves is wrong, does not smell ‘right’.. and must be hidden from others and even ourselves.

    We put on clothes, personas, that clothes don’t fit. “Relieving” ourselves a biological good experienced as something that smells and wrong so we “constipate” ourselves, working against our good (and the flow of life) working against ourselves. (I know you don’t like the word ‘self ‘ but what ever part of you that experiences you)

    I have never met anyone who was so mentally healthy that they do not struggle with the problem of opposites and its implications.

    That said you may be correct that the process which involves suffering and getting things wrong is of the greater ‘Good’. That what seems to me as working against my good, even biological good, can be views as being the GOOD as it results in consciousness – Life desires to be conscious of Life which cannot happen in the garden. Thus, Life is never at war with Life, everything is as it must be (like it or not)… I can never work against my own ‘good’ as even my experience with suffering is Life and so  ‘Good’…

    Which is not how I experience myself nor is it a tension I can hold for long (sometimes in meditation)… Which is why We work against ourselves – I do the things I do not wish to do and do not do the things I wish to do.  I am a contradiction.

    That was fun 😊

    #384934
    Murtaza
    Participant

    In fact, we can be hurt, but we can heal from it. If someone stabs you, you are hurt

    You use hurt as both internal pain and external, which is alright

    When i hear or say hurt, i immediately think internal, something like being abandoned, cheating on etc.

    The thing is, no one could ever hurt you internally, unless you allow him, unless you be that vulnerable, or expect anything from that psrson.

     

    If someone cheats on me, and this hurt me, yes, this is the normal response to any human being, but i did let that person in my life, i did trust him fully, to be able to do that damage

     

    I told you, i don’t blame evil for existing, people will cheat on you, people will hurt you, that’s reality, i only blame something under my control, to fix and updata.

     

    If you close yourself in advance from love and relationships – anticipating that you will be hurt

    I never said no to any experience, but yes i do anticipate being hurt, and i know this for a fact, due to my jealously problem.

     

    I don’t close myself though, i be as vulnerable i can get with such person, and if he hurt me, oh well, better be careful next time, bulid some healthy beginning, to make sure he won’t do such thing.

     

    Yes, love is an exchange,

    You see the exchange i have to do make no sense.

     

    But some people appreciate us for who we are

    Unless who you are isn’t very popular in society.

     

    You haven’t treated/healed his wound,

    I did what i could from what i had, back in 2018 i would’ve loved a good therapist, but i learned to do it by myself, its too late now, I’ve already accepted life like this.

     

    I also remember you saying me needing people for this kinda heal.

     

    from the wound getting deeper

    Depending on my situation, i believe this was the best option, and it still is, all you provided was me watching YouTube, bullshit i say, the only way to truely heal is to fix the original problem, a problem was made by a human, and that can be fixed by human.

     

    To express anger at them (justified anger) in a safe, therapeutic setting.

    I will do no such thing lol, if i started to care about how i feel, i would have a list of things to do, this is slavery to my action, i don’t accept being controlled by my silly parents pain.

     

    I also hate “therapeutic setting” to express anger, they would suggest things like draw, or boxing, please.

     

    I know you’re not interested in healing, but I am just saying what would need to be done – if you were interested.

    Why talk like such option is so available for me? And that i don’t need sacrifice so greatly for such thing?

     

    because you rationalized it by finding excuses for them

    “Find excuses” no, its the truth.

    I also still hate them.

     

    I can do both, i can understand why they did what they did, and still hating what they did.

     

    but it seeps out, and it comes out in your interactions with other people

    No, my hate for people is completely different from my parents, its because of the first being so ignorant, so judgmental, so superficial.

     

    you are angry at the entire world

    A world which most people dislike me, create words and logic to shame me, to gulit me, a world where its so expensive to get any basic needs, a world where all of your actions has severe consequences, a world with no help, a world where nothing is free, a world with no one to trust, even your parents, a world where your whole personality and feelings and thoughts is determined by your parents and environment, a world set only for the majority of people.

    So my anger is justified.

     

    Workout usually does help. But it didn’t help you?

    They don’t, i walked for nearly two years everyday for almost an hour, and i still hated life so much, why advertiser as if workout can do anything when in reality they only release a chemical that can make you relaxed.

     

    What did you expect to gain from workout, and how were you disappointed?

    I didn’t expect anything they didn’t told me, workout is  one single thing out of many many lies.

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