September 27, 2016 at 10:27 am #116423
I have seen this discussion in many websites where man judge and complain about women sexual behavior.
Many of men try to condemn women who was “promiscuous” in their past to a life of solitude or not commitment.
I am struggling with this seriously and I tried to understand why this occurs and seems to be so common.
Like I usually see, men avoid promiscuous women and then women reply that this is a men’s behavior, and just them are judged about this.
Since I got a similar situation with my ex-girlfriend (and I think this was the main reason to me) I try to find a answer to explain why I feel so bad because this.
– The women argue this is a result of machismo culture and patriarchy that don’t set the same rights for men and women, and puts women as a property.
– I have seen also the point that this is evolutionary and from ancient times, that man has this inner criteria on them.
But, personally those explanations didn’t work for me. I don’t feel I am oppressive with women and I don’t think this is totally natural for men.
I found that this bad sensation is very related to my past and maybe a similar past of many man. (This is a caricaturist explanation just to highlight some points):
When I was a boy I was thought that I would being regarded if I had a good behavior. In the school we grouped in boys and girls groups and we know who behaves well and bad inside each group. It occurs that in the boys group there is a selfish and more extroverted boy, who imposes more himself because he doesn’t care too much about others. But, you keep in mind you are the one will be regarded because you behave better than him.
And, there is a girl you like in the girl’s group. But she likes more the extroverted guy because he is more confident (arrogant compared to the others boys) and has more “attitude”.
Just happens that this boy approximate the girls and he usually get success in this process. But, he doesn’t care very much about them and he changes he focus to another girl as soon as possible, because he has to feed his ego and many times he tells the other guys about how fool were the girls.
The other boys feel it is unfair, since they know he is not a “very good” guy and they feel humiliated because they really liked the girls. This situation repeats constantly and they starts feeling bad about themselves. First because the girl has chosen the “bad” guy instead of them, and second because the bad guy humiliate them suggesting they are not good enough.
When it becomes more common they stop being envy about the bad guy and start thinking he is an example instead. They pass to think that it is not his fault, but the women’s fault. Because women have the power to choose and they “prefer” the bad guy, since they don’t seem to care very much if the guy is a really good person.
So, those ones who were good at the beginning (but got humiliated because someone who they think are worse than them got the girl they wanted), create a huge resentment of girls who act like that.
They think the only way they would be redeemed of the humiliation is getting a good girl which any bad guy never touched. So their minds changed a lot since the beginning:
– now, they think the must act like the bad guy, using his tricks to get close and stay with the girls they are attracted to
– and they reserve their commitment just for the girl who is able to redeem them. It means, the one who not will make them feel humiliated between the guys, because she never has chosen one, or very few of them.
When a men discovers the past of a woman he is afraid of reassuming the position of weakness. And this has no relation with the woman. She can be a very good person, but if she has a past, he will feel humiliated by the bad guy again. So, he prefers to not get attached to that girl, than to be with her. Because being with her means to him that the bad guy has won.
This is very sad for the girls, because sometimes they really like the guys and they don’t accept them anymore. And they don’t understand, because they never have done anything bad to them. So they don’t see the reason to be rejected.
But, the guys see exactly like that. Is a kind of punishment because , they were “rejected in the past with no reason” and someone they think was worse took their places. And now, after this situation, the girls realized the bad guy was really bad, and want to be with the good guys, but they are already angry and feeling humiliated.
I see it is not girl’s fault, but when it occurs the man feels very humiliated.
He is afraid if the others guys will make fun of him. Or he may think she really likes the bad guys but chooses him now just for financial purposes. Or she will leave him as soon this other guy appears, etc.
But the main fact is: he feels humiliated because his is a looser in the Man’s competition!
That competition states that: you are successful man if you are better than the others guys. This can be achieved in two ways: 1) you get the one who is special and anyone “never” touched (quality), or you get as much as possible (quantity).
All of this can be overcome if the guy find a girl which he thinks will put him on the top of the podium. She must be very beautiful and etc. But, for average girl… the past will make the decision.
How those events occurs really affects the men mind. If he had “failed” in to achieve other things, more he is like to be resented. And they are more like to become “bad” guys to get girls than to keep being the good guy. Some guys try to become very rich to fill this gap in their confidence, getting power, becoming famous, aggressive, etc.
I don’t know how men must lead with this situation because it really is a kind of suffering that pressure us to be successful whatever it takes, just to recompose ourselves and stop acting badly.
When they say that we suffer like this because of weakness, it just reinforces the weakness and is more appealing to continue the cycle.
When women say they had the right to do what they want and their actions should be accepted, and this past was good and they don’t regret, the man feels that they must not commit with them, because they observe the bad guy is the regarded one, and at the only is better to be promiscuous.
So, the man who was good at the beginning become very bad at the end.
He hopes a good girl to save him from this nightmare, but many times he is seen as a weak. They don’t see the point that those guys feel they were “betrayed” and being good seems weakness.
The root of this problem is the Ego and vanity. Because anyone wants to feel less or the second option.
I think the women don’t understand this, and they think every man must feel very happy when a women who is promiscuous finally decides to attach to a man. But, they don’t get the point that for long time those man had suffer with a situation they think is very unfair.September 27, 2016 at 11:04 am #116430
I am impressed by the depth and thoroughness of your analysis and am sure it is true to reality although there are other factors that need to be factored in, factors you didn’t mention.
Let me see if I understand the core of your analysis. I will paraphrase and summarize your analysis, in effort to further processing it. I will use “boy” and “girl” to mean boys and men, and girls and women. I will use “bad girl” to mean one who becomes sexually involved with multiple bad boys over time. A “bad boy” is one who has no concern for the women he gets involved with, intends no commitment, and is motivated by sexual pleasures alone, acquiring variety and quantity of women. A good boy cares for the girl’s well being, is interested in a committed relationship:
Girls are attracted to be bad boys, get involved with the bad boys and reject the good boys. The good boys feel humiliated for having been rejected. As a result of such repetitive experience, the good boys are motivated to be bad boys in order to be as- or more successful then the bad boys. They aim to have more sex with more girls.
But inside, the good boys turned bad still care about a girl’s feelings and well being, and still want to love a girl for who she is and to be loved by her for who they are, good guys. So they choose to commit to a good girl only. Committing to a bad girl means re-experiencing the humiliation of being rejected and the fear of still being rejected by her.
With the good woman, a good man feels safe- she will not reject him, not in real life and not in her mind (thinking of him as ‘second best’). With a bad woman, a good man feels threatened, still in competition with the bad guys, be it in her mind and/ or in real life.
Am I correct?
anitaSeptember 27, 2016 at 1:31 pm #116469
Yes, you got the point (and explained it in a shorter and clearer way).
ThanksSeptember 27, 2016 at 1:41 pm #116471
You are welcome and thank you for posting something as profound and insightful as this. I hope more people read this and respond.
Did you post this to share only or are you looking for any specific input? And I wonder if there is more that you will be sharing on the topic.
anitaSeptember 27, 2016 at 6:20 pm #116502
The reason I posted it is because sometimes I get myself thinking about this and it makes me feel uncomfortable.
And I tried to find a way to get rid of these bad feelings reading some articles, but their arguments didn’t apply very well to me. The main arguments blamed men for insecurity or women for unnatural promiscuity.
Then I reflected about my own experience and I found that is related to the feeling that in the “racing” to get a pair, it seems that “bad guys”get some advantage, and the “good guys” expects an “untouched girl” to redeem them since they become the only way to overcome the humiliation they feel of being rejected or not successful in that “racing”.
I think many men hide the fact they feel humiliated in this “competition” and transfer their frustration to women, blaming and shaming them. And even the men don’t understand it very well. So, this discussion may help them to clearer that.
At same time, women seem to not understand what is the complex effect for men when they get to know their past. And maybe women can be compassionated to the “good guy”.
I realized that men usually see the women they commit as a kind of trophy. That is why they are so concerned about the past of their future spouses. These man get attached to women who is able to fix their self-steem lack. Since they find themselves in a competition where the winner is the more sexual active, they will be shamed if their wives had more “points” than them or other men signalizes they have got this “point” before them.
I think part of this suffering can’t be avoided. Since the people will be rejected in some part of their lives.
The men should value more himself instead of keeping competing in this very unfair competition. They always will feel foolish if they keep their self-esteem conditioned to the behavior of women.
I also think that while the bad guy profile keeps working better than being a good guy, the men will do an effort to become more like it. This just complicates the commitment process.September 27, 2016 at 6:52 pm #116503
This is such a complex topic as many factors play into it: societal gender/ sexual role conventions passed on from the beginning of time, the women’s liberation movement of the sixties, the complexity of the meaning of goo vs bad man/ woman, the biological mating behaviors passed on to us, humans, mental health and dating, the traditional objectifying of women as sex objects in the marketing and sex industry,y and so much more.
Your competition explanation, the race you mentioned is true. One saying: “Nice guys finish last” – a well known saying is about the race you wrote about.
I have so many thoughts about this but will stop here, hoping other members will comment on your posts here. Will be back later.
anitaSeptember 27, 2016 at 11:37 pm #116540XenopusTexParticipant
To me, it is a question of biology plus the numbers game. The more sexual partners, the greater the chance of std infection. Sort of like playing Russian roulette; if you keep pulling the trigger, you will eventually find the live chamber.October 8, 2016 at 4:53 pm #117567manbuddhaParticipant
Great insight, Geovane! I see you have spent some time thinking about this.
Honestly, I think your theory is true to a point.
First, I agree with you, a real mature man must value himself and realize that life is not a competition. We are simply here to love. Unfortunately, many many people live out their lives as a competition or race. All that brings is pain, weird behavior, jealousy and lack of real relationships. For example, as you have written, you can find people who are preoccupied with competIng against all the people who a spouse/gf/bad might have been with in the past. Very sad.
I find that in general, the “good” guy is usually one who has refused to accept certain realities. In nature, it usually is the job of the male to attract the female and somehow persuade her to mate – as in humans. Typically, The female part is to have beauty and able to mate+reproduce. That subtle game of persuasion is what all men must have.
I maybe be wrong, but many “good” guys seem to be guys who feel/are attractive inside, they have a light, but they kind of want to keep their light hidden, and wait for the magic girl who will come to them, recognize their goodness, pry the door open and embrace their value. Unfortunately, most women will never do that. So that attitude may not work well for romantic relationships with women.
When I was much younger, I used to judge women partly by the kind of men they were attracted to. That is, if I saw a woman was attracted to/pursuing/in relationship with a guy I knew to be dishonest or bad, I would kind of write her off. Tbh, this was not due to any humiliation as you wrote above but I simply felt that she had shown poor judgement. At first it seemed I would have to write everyone off, even family members! After a while, I saw that there were actually many women who showed good judgement and could see a bad guy and avoid him. These women are able to analyze a man’s character on one hand and her feelings due to his persuasion game on the other, in order to make a decision.
In my experience, the unfortunate thing is that the overwhelming majority of women tend to make this important analysis only from their late twenties/thirties onwards. In the teens to early twenties, it seems the majority of women only see their feelings produced by the persuasion game of a man and are quite blind to character when making relationship decisions.
It just so happens that more so called “bad” guys than “good guys are committed to that game of persuasion and that is actually what drew the women in. The women are actually not attracted to their bad side (except of course a small minority). This is why I was wrong to write all those women off.
For some crazy reason, “good” guys are either oblivious to the persuasion game, or they know of it but don’t want to engage.
Funny enough, in the reverse case, where men must hold a woman’s character on one hand and her beauty/attractiveness on the other to make relationship decisions, I believe that the majority of men are unable to see past beauty and this continues all though their lives! – if beauty is present, a lot of men will pick beauty and seem blind to bad character, over and over and over. So men cannot hold any moral ground over women in terms of judgement in this lol
All women have already embraced the fact that beauty has that ridiculously strong effect on men – thus the billions spent every year on makeup, plastic surgery etc.
If the persuasion game is that strong, the solution for relationships is simply that the good guys just need to embrace it very early. It works out better for everyone that way. Don’t just hold your light near the ground. Shine your light. Make ittwinkle.
I don’t claim to be an expert in the persuasion at all but maybe a simple hint is: love is playful.October 9, 2016 at 11:40 am #117626LacyParticipant
An insecure man will question any woman, no matter their looks or number of previous partners – and they will see a problem in any number.
The question isn’t about how pretty the woman is or how many partners she has had – I’d question the guys internal self-esteem insitead.
If the woman has no kids from those encounters, nor diseases, why does it matter. Personally – any guy who even thinks he needs, insists to know the number of my partners, I conclude they have a deep internal problem with themselves, and that is something I do not any longer wish to combat with.
These kinds of men aren’t looking for partners – they are looking for trophies. So, these women become wells to water these guys’ narcissism.October 10, 2016 at 2:58 pm #117727jeenaParticipant
Ever since I was a teen, I can spot a bad guy a mile away. I’ve never been attracted to them no matter what they looked like. I’ll pick a “good guy” over a “bad guy” every time. Does that make me an exception to the rule? I don’t think so. I think the problem is just that some men play the “competition game” so well that a lot of women can’t distinguish the difference between arrogance and confidence. One of which is attractive.October 11, 2016 at 7:34 am #117771AnonymousInactive
I don’t recognise this good-guy/bad-guy dynamic you’re talking about. Like, what age are these guy groups and girl groups? Who were they? Have you actually observed this, in your own life? Repeatedly? Are you sure?
If you approached relationships as an opportunity to share your heart and your life with a fellow human being, instead of an opportunity to finally get ahead of those bad guys from back in school, you maybe wouldn’t have this problem. Do you actually think a woman has better “quality” if she’s had no previous relationships? How? Why? How does that make her better?
You’re hitting the nail on the head though when you say this is ego and vanity. That’s all it is. So release the ego. Recognise how irrational and unreasonable your ideas really are. Stop trying to win a pissing contest with some other guy you’re probably not even in touch with anymore by having a “better” girlfriend than him.
Snap out of it, dude.October 12, 2016 at 5:56 am #117888Alien incident47Participant
A young man or woman will this way as you pointed out. Thinking back to when I was in hs and growing up I do remember that was the mentality of the way things where . I included women because certain bad Girls had there view of guys as well, such as dating guys who were a certain “size” , or if he came from money. I see some of that in older men and women now, the ones who did not mature or break free from the past. This is why girls lie about their number and why a guy lies about his size or the need to pop pills to increase size or how long he last in bed. Such a vain world we live in, so it seems. So sad that is how people live their lives, when actually true beauty is what is a person’s heart and how they live. Some people are considered poor because they don’t livable a materialistic life ,or not a trophy because they are over weight, dose that make them less of a human. From what I read it would if you live so vainly in that kind of thinking. Such a different world would be if you can see someone soul and not the outside appearance.
Rather than looking at girls number, see and feel what is in her heart .October 12, 2016 at 6:25 am #117895PeterParticipant
For me this appears to be a problem of measurement and labeling. On the whole we suck at measuring emotional experience and then compound the problem with labeling the experience and the person or self as being the label. For example the measurement that having many sexual partners is bad, there for a person who has many sexual partners is bad. The person becoming the labels created.
The map is not the territory, the word tree is not a tree… we are more than the sum of our parts and labels.
You must live your values as you understand them. If you are having to validate those values via the application of labels the danger is the creation of a I – It experience vice a I – Thou experience.
Each person is unique, more than the sum of their parts (and past).October 12, 2016 at 9:42 am #117917NinjaParticipant
Thanks for the great discussion.
Growing up, I was a Good Guy. My wife was a Bad Girl (her own words). She had many sexual partners, while she has been my only partner. Here are a few things to consider that I have found illuminating and VERY helpful:
1. “Blooming” Early vs Late
My wife started having sex with guys at age 15. When I was 15, I could not even imagine doing such a thing. I was still into comic books, hanging with my buddies, etc. My point: People mature at different times. I was a very “late bloomer” when it came to desiring sex. Oh, mind you, I do like it now! And her, not so much. Been there, done that – many times. This very sharp contrast in our “timing” has caused us anxiety. But knowing that this stress comes from our contrasting pasts helps us isolate and deal with it. Of course, this leads to:
2. Contrasting “Numbers”
Since she started very early, her number grew – and grew. I started very late (late 20’s) and, like I said, she has been my only partner. To better make my point, if I had, say, 27 partners and she had 30, I’m sure the anxiety wouldn’t be there – we’d have our own “war stories” (and wounds) to share. Not us. Our backgrounds are lop-sided. No one’s fault – and I realize that my past helps create this as much as hers.
3. Now vs Then: People can change
When we were first together, my wife said, “If you knew me a few years ago, you wouldn’t have liked me – and I wouldn’t have liked you!” What she meant was this: she was a Bad Girl who liked only Bad Guys. To her, Good Guys were boring losers. Of course, the Bad Guys would mistreat her, and she would also be the aggressor at times. And like so many younger women, she needed to feel accepted and validated by men. But the emotional “high” she would gain by waking up naked next to a guy she just met hours before (her “win/trophy”) was only followed by an even larger “low.” Eventually, after a few years of therapy, she broke this cycle – and met me. Sadly, she no longer desires sex as it reminds her of a darker time before me. This creates anxiety as I feel she “gave herself away” before me. We’re currently working through this.
I do believe that a “Lower Number” person brings a certain degree of naivety, ignorance and expectation to the relationship. And, while a “Higher Number” person brings experience, they also bring baggage in the form of wounds, shame, guilt and pain. I am very sensitive to not “slut shaming” my wife for her past as she has told me that she’d like to forget most of it. I also realize that while she started having sex at a very early age, she needed to feel accepted and validated – I did not. She didn’t have sex out of desire (although enjoying it may have been a side bonus for her). I’m sure that if she could attain acceptance from men without sex, she would have chosen that instead.
Overall, we cannot be too general and categorize people. We’re all different, mature at various times (or never at all), in different ways – and have the option of actually changing for the worse or better. If you find someone special (as I have), don’t treat them as a sexual trophy. Treat them as a whole person. And put their life and well being before yours. Grow old with them. And after the “parts” no longer work that well, discover the joy of holding their hand.
Peace.October 14, 2016 at 1:07 am #118147AnonymousInactive
Ninja: thanks for your thoughtful contribution. It’s tough to have mismatched libidos in a relationship. Hope you and her stay strong in spite of it.
Alien Incident: Who are these people you’re talking about? Maybe you just need a new social group.