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When family dynamics you grew up with become unacceptable in adulthood

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  • #460347
    anita
    Participant

    Good morning, Nea 🙂

    I’ll try to answer my own question (in the message before last) by quoting your words from your last message and thinking out loud:

    “His perspective has generally been that he only explodes when other people escalate or provoke him, rather than recognizing that how he responds is ultimately his responsibility”-

    So, he doesn’t have to watch for how he behaves because his behavior is someone else’s responsibility.

    A child growing up with this attitude is likely to feel responsible for his explosions and become hyper aware of his moods, so to try and prevent future explosions.

    This hyper awareness is related to empathy. For example, you may see hurt on his face, feel very sad for him, and rush to make him feel better-before his hurt turns to anger and an explosion.

    This dynamic explains the combination of a parent who severely lacks (1) personal responsibility in regard to his explosions, and (2) empathy in regard to how his explosions affect his child/ wife/ others,

    And

    A child feeling overly responsible for the parent’s explosions, as well as overly empathetic for how the parent feels- so to calm the parent and prevent the next explosion.

    In other words, in this dynamics, it’s not a responsible and empathetic parent that produces a responsible and empathetic child.

    I’ll continue a bit later.

    🌿 Anita

    #460354
    anita
    Participant

    Continued:

    * I’m adding this after I completed this short message: if the following is too upsetting to you, please feel free to not answer. If our conversation- exploration promotes your Clarity and Calm, that’s a good thing. Please let me know.

    “My dad began swearing, calling him names”- what did he say, what names did he call your husband.. humiliating, crushing names?

    You mentioned verbal abuse that he directed at you into your adulthood. Did he call you names as well?

    I’m asking not to pry but to understand the extent of his cruelty.

    * I don’t suppose you or your husband ever called him names or ever heard anyone else call him names to his face?

    There’s much more that you shared, but sometimes when there’s so much, we don’t give enough attention to some things as they get swallowed in multitude of details and such.

    I forgot the great majority of the humiliating, crushing words my mother used against me but I so clearly remember this one: “You’re One Big Zero!”

    Anita

    #460357
    Nea
    Participant

    Hi Anita,

    Great to hear from you again, appreciate your time to respond to me. 🙂

    What you wrote about the dynamic between a parent who struggles with accountability and empathy and a child who becomes overly responsible for the parent’s emotions really stood out to me.

    Looking back, I do think I became very aware of my dad’s moods and felt almost obligated to manage them—from childhood well into early adulthood. There was often this sense that we had to watch what we said, how we said it, whether he was already stressed, and whether something might set him off. And after an explosion, there was very little space for what it had done to everyone else emotionally.

    There is unfortunately a lot of history behind that. Some of the worst incidents involved domestic violence at home, followed by my dad sometimes leaving for days afterward. I remember being left with all of the fear and sadness from what had happened, while eventually there was an expectation that life would simply return to normal. One of the last really major incidents I remember happened when I was 23, during COVID, and it involved both physical and verbal aggression. I remember thinking very clearly at that age that this simply was not normal and wondering why we all kept having to absorb it and then move on.

    And yes, there has been a lot of name-calling directed at me personally over the years. I mean actual swear words and degrading language—being called a “bitch,” being told to “shut the fuck up,” “get the fuck out of my house,” or things like, “You think you’re my mother? You don’t fucking know anything.” Those are just examples that come immediately to mind.

    Even outside of the major explosions, trying to have a difficult conversation could be challenging. If I wanted to bring something up or was anxious and needed to talk, I would often hear that he had too much on his plate or that he didn’t want to talk about it. If I continued because something genuinely needed to be discussed, it could turn into being told to shut up or being sworn at. So I think I learned that even having a concern of my own could potentially become another situation I had to manage.

    With my husband, during this recent incident, my dad called him a “fucking piece of shit,” said things along the lines of “I’ll show you,” I’m fairly certain called him an “asshole,” and muttered other insulting things during the confrontation. My husband did not call him names in return. That is part of why I have struggled with the idea that my husband simply should have disengaged sooner. I can acknowledge that disengaging would have been the better way to prevent further escalation while also recognizing that being verbally attacked and humiliated like that was not something he caused or deserved.

    Something else I find interesting is that my much younger sister has had a somewhat different experience with my dad. She has always had much more of a “don’t tell me what to do” personality, and she also went through a very dark period with her mental health when she was younger. I think some of what happened during that period frightened my parents enough that they became much more cautious about how they approach her. My dad can simply be different with her.

    I’m genuinely happy about that because my sister and I are extremely close, and I would never want her to experience what I did. At the same time, I would be lying if I said it never makes me think, So you actually are capable of behaving differently.

    I notice something similar in the way my dad interacts with friends and certain other people. He clearly can exercise restraint, empathy, and consideration in some relationships. I think that realization is part of what makes all of this complicated for me emotionally. It’s not that I believe he is incapable of those things. I have seen that he is capable of them.

    Your explanation also helps me understand why, even now, I can immediately start thinking about his feelings, what may have provoked him, whether he is hurt, or what everyone else could have done differently—even when he was the person who became aggressive. That sense of responsibility for his emotional state seems to have been reinforced for a very long time.

    Nea

    #460358
    anita
    Participant

    Good evening, Nea 🙂

    I find our conversations very interesting and glad to have them. I hope that we’re helping each other- as peers, regardless of our age difference.

    Particularly when I’m using my phone, like now, I like to scroll up, quote a sentence or a few from your message, share what it brings up for me, then scroll up again and repeat. It helps me think more clearly (undoing many, many years of confusion).

    “He clearly can exercise restraint, empathy and consideration in some relationships… I have seen that he is capable of (resteaint, empathy and consideration)”-

    I think that he is capable of performing empathy. It’s called Strategic Empathy, or Instrumental Empathy, which is aimed at managing his social image, or promoting his personal interests.

    Where’s the Genuine Empathy during years and decades of seeing his wife and his daughters suffer, and yet not caring to change anything about his behaviors so to protect the three of you?

    “She has always had much more of a ‘don’t tell me what to do’ personality, and she also went through a very dark period with her mental health when she was younger. I think that some of what happened frightened my parents enough that they became much more cautious about how they approache her. My dad can simply be different with her”-

    I don’t know your mother’s emotional motivation. She may have been genuinely concerned about your sister’s mental health.

    But when it comes to your father, I imagine that what he was scared of was what a daughter’s visible mental health problems would do to his social image.

    That she was able to come up with a ‘don’t tell me what to do’ personality may have developed because she was allowed the freedom to develop it, or to maintain it.

    I am guessing that he wasn’t afraid that you, Nea, will make him look bad because you didn’t visible display mental health problems.. ?

    At this point, because of what you added in the message I’m responding to, I’m thinking that maybe your father is not dangerous at all because physically and detectably (!) injuring his daughters, his wife, or his son-in-law would make him look bad.

    I will continue later.

    Anita

    #460360
    anita
    Participant

    Continued:.

    What you wrote in the last paragraph: “Even now… I can immediately start thinking about his feelings… whether he’s hurt”-

    All I thought about growing up was what my mother felt, how hurt she was. I wasn’t thinking about my feelings because emotionally, I was fused with her.

    It took me a long time to understand that who I imagined my mother to be.. was heavily influence by my imaginings, my wishful thinking, my unmet needs.

    Anita

    #460361
    anita
    Participant

    Hi Nea:

    * I’m adding this after completing this message: this may be too much. Please feel free to not read or stop reading at any time. No need to respond if this is too much *

    I am back at the computer and can look things up:

    Strategic Empathy means he can perform empathy when it benefits him, using ’empathy‑like’ behavior to manage his image, and showing restraint only in relationships where consequences exist.

    Instrumental Empathy means empathy used as a tool to achieve a goal: to gain approval, avoid conflict, maintain reputation, and control how others see him.

    Another term you might feel useful is Selective Restraint. This describes how he controls himself only when he fears consequences, wants to maintain a certain image, avoid looking bad, or appear reasonable.

    Real empathy includes * Curiosity — you want to understand another person’s inner world, * Responsiveness — you adjust your behavior to reduce harm, * Consistency, * Accountability — you care enough to change harmful patterns, and * Non‑performance — it’s not about image, approval, or control.

    Real empathy is felt, not calculated; it leads to change, while strategic empathy leads to performance. Real empathy shows up in private, while strategic empathy shows up in public.

    Nea, about the words he used against you and your husband, phrases like: “bitch”, “shut the fuck up”, “get the fuck out of my house”, “you don’t fucking know anything”, “fucking piece of shit”, “I’ll show you”, and “asshole”- That’s dominance language.

    These words mean: ‘I am above you.’, ‘You have no right to speak.’, ‘Your feelings don’t matter.’

    ‘I control this space.’, ‘I decide who is allowed to exist here.’

    ‘I will crush you if you challenge me.’, ‘I will escalate if you don’t submit.’

    He uses these specific words because they degrade, humiliate, silence, intimidate, and trigger fear and compliance.

    His phrase “I’ll show you” is especially important. It means: ‘I will escalate.’, ‘I will overpower you.’, ‘I will punish you for not submitting.’, and ‘I will demonstrate my dominance.’

    His “get the fuck out of my house” means: ‘You exist here only by my permission.’, ‘I can expel you at any moment.’, ‘Your presence is conditional on obedience.’

    His “you don’t fucking know anything” means ‘Your perspective is invalid.’, ‘Your voice has no weight.’, ‘You are beneath me.’

    His words are weapons designed to silence, dominate, intimidate, humiliate, and maintain control.

    This is not a ‘difficult parent.’ This is an abusive one.

    And his financial generosity is part of the control structure, not evidence of goodness. Many abusive or domineering parents are financially generous because it maintains loyalty, dependence, image, and power.

    Children of abusive parents often say: ‘He (or she) can be generous.’, ‘He can be charming.’ etc. This creates confusion because generosity feels like ‘proof’ of goodness. But his financial generosity does not cancel out the name‑calling, the intimidation, the humiliation, the threats, the emotional volatility, the dominance language, the lack of accountability, and the absence of genuine empathy.

    It is entirely possible — and very common — for someone to be financially generous, socially charming, publicly restrained, and still be emotionally abusive, domineering, unsafe in private, and harmful to their family.

    As I’ve been typing this message, Nea, I’ve been feeling this heat in my face, anger, as in: ‘How Dare He?’

    Your father and my mother have a lot in common. Although they’re not the same.

    I have images of my mother, memories of her face- kind, loving, warm. Big brown eyes. I have memories of the hurt on her face and in her voice, and me swearing I will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to fix her hurt, to make her feel better.

    I remember her in private, thoroughly shaming and humiliating me any way she could until she was exhausted and yet in public: charming, pleasing, ‘good’

    In cartoons the bad character is 100%, unequivocally bad. In real life, the bad parent is (simplified) a former innocent, hurt child.. and you can see remnants of that innocence and hurt in the abusive adult they turned out to be.

    Anita

    #460362
    Nea
    Participant

    Good evening, Anita 🙂

    I’m glad to have these conversations as well. I think there is always something we can learn from one another regardless of age or differences in life experience, and I appreciate hearing perspectives that make me think about things differently.

    What you said about strategic or selective empathy is interesting. Perhaps my dad isn’t fully capable of the genuine empathy I’m thinking of, and some of it is connected to how he wants to be perceived socially. I’m not sure that’s something I’ll ever fully know.

    As for whether that concern about his image would prevent him from physically hurting someone, I’m less certain. Usually someone has intervened when things were escalating, and there have been a few times when the police had to be called. So I don’t really know how far things could have gone otherwise. But I do understand your perspective that his concern for his image may create some restraint.

    What is sad is that the people who should matter most—the ones who have been there throughout his life—often don’t receive the same empathy or consideration. Yet I’ve seen him put so much energy into friendships. Many of those friendships eventually end after some conflict or behaviour, and then new ones take their place. Maybe that supports what you’re saying—that something which isn’t entirely genuine can only be maintained for so long.

    I even saw something similar with my husband. Their relationship felt very different in the earlier years, but the dynamic changed significantly over time, especially once work became involved.

    And what you shared about being emotionally fused with your mother resonates with me. That instinct to immediately think about a parent’s feelings, even when they are the one who caused the hurt, is something I’m becoming much more aware of in myself.

    Nea

    #460363
    Nea
    Participant

    I just saw another post you’ve added! It’s quite late here but I look forward to reading it in the morning and adding to my reply 🙂

    Nea

    #460364
    anita
    Participant

    Yes, I just submitted you another long post. Better you read it in the morning. It’s just after midnight here, good night 🙂

    #460365
    Nea
    Participant

    Good morning Anita,

    I hope you have a good start to your weekend.

    I read your post and am adding my reply now as a continuation of what I wrote above.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain the different forms of empathy and restraint. Reading those definitions gave me language for something I have struggled to understand for a very long time. I can see how my dad can show very different levels of empathy, restraint, and awareness depending on the person, the setting, and the consequences involved. That realization is honestly very sad for me.

    I think one of the hardest parts is that people are rarely completely black and white in real life. It would almost be easier emotionally if they were. When someone is your parent, you want to believe they are one of your safe people. You remember the moments when they were caring, loving, funny, supportive, or generous, and those memories coexist with the moments that made you frightened, hurt, or unsafe.

    It has taken me a very long time, and I think I am still coming to terms with seeing my dad and our family dynamics for what they actually are rather than what I wish they could be.

    I still remember the small moments of care. I remember all of the financial generosity too. And sometimes that generosity feels as though it hangs over my head as an obligation — almost like because someone has done so much financially, I should tolerate things that I otherwise know are not okay. Logically I know generosity does not cancel out harmful behavior, but emotionally it is much harder to separate those things when it is your parent.

    I think that is also why, whenever my anxiety flares, my mind immediately starts searching for a way to restore peace. I start wondering whether my husband can somehow help fix things or whether there is something I should do differently. I haven’t asked him about this topic for the last couple of days because I recognize that repeatedly trying to solve it is not helping either of us.

    What I am struggling with now is the uncertainty. My mind jumps ahead to future holidays, birthdays and different seasons of our lives and worries that things will remain cold and uncomfortable. I keep wanting to know how this ends, even though I realize there may not be an answer right now.

    My husband would still like some kind of conversation eventually. He wants the opportunity to explain his perspective, reflect on what happened and acknowledge where he could have handled things differently, while also making it clear that the verbal abuse and physical intimidation were not okay.

    The difficulty is that I know my dad extremely well. I have very little confidence that it would actually become that kind of conversation. I think it would likely become very one-sided, with my dad focusing primarily on what he believes my husband did wrong and expecting an apology without being willing to meaningfully examine his own actions.

    My husband has said he can remain civil and be in the same spaces, but if that conversation never happens, he does not feel comfortable initiating conversation or pretending the relationship has simply returned to normal. I understand where he is coming from, even though emotionally it is still very painful for me because they once had a genuinely close relationship.

    I also really want to thank you for sharing what you experienced with your mother. Your mother and my father are obviously different people and our experiences are not identical, but something you wrote really stayed with me — the difficulty of holding memories of warmth and love alongside memories of humiliation and fear.

    I think there is a particular kind of wound in realizing that someone you instinctively viewed as a safe person was not always safe. And I imagine that is something both of us can understand in our own ways.

    Thank you again for sharing so openly with me. Your post gave me a lot to think about.

    Nea

    #460367
    anita
    Participant

    Good almost- noon time, Nea:

    I was in an hours-long process of answering your last 2 posts when I had to get off the computer, and here I am on the phone.

    I’ll complete that post when I’m back to the computer, but for now, summarizing what I wrote there in the simplest language:

    Your father and my mother are struggling people, so fragile inside that they can’t endure any amount of criticism, challenge or shame.

    The feeling of shame is uncomfortable for everyone, but for them- any bit of it is intolerable.

    So, I understand the inner working and empathize with them. At the same time, the impact of their behavior is very harmful for those who care about them.

    So, by intent, they’re only protecting themselves (from intolerable feelings of shame), but by impact, they’re harmful and abusive.

    If I was you, Nea, I would never leave my daughter with him without being there to supervise. Otherwise, she’ll be his next victim- again, not by intent- but by impact.

    How to co-exist with him?

    No amount of submission will do, no amount of accommodation will do.

    And no way of helping him or changing him.

    You just have to.. well, to not live with him, and then limit visits in time and place, so that you can leave whenever the time is right, and.. I suppose, pray for him, because practically, there’s nothing you can do for him.

    More when I’m back to the computer.

    Anita

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