Dear Helcat,

I’d like to reply to your previous post too.

I think you’ve got the jist of what occurred.

Good, I am glad that the dynamics is a bit clearer now.

I don’t think anyone likes conflict. It’s actually really hard for me to talk to people about issues. I can’t even look at people during disagreements because I find it challenging and often cry. I was taught by my family to passively accept abuse and it’s not healthy for me to do so. For me, even though it is difficult, dealing with issues is the healthy thing to do.

I see… you don’t like conflict either, however it is important for you to speak out when treated badly, and to talk about things that bother you. To not passively accept abuse. That’s a very healthy approach actually! Yes, sometimes conflict is necessary – as in, expressing what’s bothering us, rather than staying silent for the sake of false peace.

As I’ve already mentioned, I did stay silent a couple of times on the forum, for the sake of “peace”. You didn’t want that, and you spoke out…

The problem, as I see it, is that you wanted something from anita – you wanted her to at least talk to you. You asked her several times to share her feelings and talk about what’s bothering her, but she didn’t want to talk to you. She told you already in September that she doesn’t want to communicate with you.

Although, she did make veiled critical remarks about you when communicating with other members (e.g. she mentioned that anybody can misuse the Report button). Even though she didn’t want to communicate with you directly, she kept making remarks about you. She was expressing that she was bothered.

And I guess this was hurtful for you… So I am thinking that maybe you wanted her to change her opinion about you, to think well of you? As I said, I think you needed “something” from her, and this something was maybe for her to stay in touch and to think well of you?

This is just an idea… let me know if it resonates?

I hope you don’t mind me “digging” further into this… if you do find it disturbing or not helpful, please let me know.

Dear Helcat,

I am truly sorry that you had to go through that level of abuse 🙁

Could you please just clarify so I can understand better: you said on your thread “Drowning” that your mother used to drown you while you were a small child (“As opposed to pleading for it to stop and being afraid of dying as a small child.”) Does that mean that the abuse started when you were little and continued all the way till you were in your teens, only then it involved sexual abuse too?

Dear Katrine,

I asked not to work nights because it’s bad for me and my Cptsd and fortunatly i don’t have to do them any more.

I am glad that you’re spared from working in a potentially dangerous environment! It’s good that the management has understanding for your concerns.

Yeah he’s known for it. Prepandemic though he was friends with the top manager and so never had any consecvenses I really hope that this is taken seriously this time. They work so hard in that kitchen but they also need a good work environment. He can’t treat people this way.

What’s his position btw? Some kind of manager? That’s totally unacceptable that he’s been harassing people without any consequences or disciplinary action. I guess everybody was afraid of the big boss and afraid to file a complaint? But now, someone finally filed a complaint against him?

Got back after midnight after picking up my parents and he was sitting next to her do it looks like they made up again. She was sad all of last week and people were hugging her because he was foling around behind her back.

Oh so they’re back together? And he’s been fooling around behind her back… well, Katrine, I am glad after all that he’s not your boyfriend. He is still playing games, like sitting next to you but not saying anything, or looking at you but not saying anything…. and at the same time he has a girlfriend but is also flirting with other girls… I don’t like it at all.

He knew for some months that i was hurt by this, he didn’t think it is okay for him to ignore and act weird around me. He is the best he is like the guy i was with, you just know your in good hands, and I have been starting to see him as more than friends.

From what you shared about the chef, I like him. He really seems like a decent guy, also someone who is emotionally stable because he can tolerate you having a crush on someone else and accepting it and waiting patiently. It’s good news that you started to see him as more than a friend! He sounds promising! 🙂

I really want to start therapy and asking around is a great idea, I really want to feel better.

I wish you to find someone suitable and affordable too!

Ola SereneWolf 🙂

Haha yeah French is not that much similar or say least similar in romance languages, also tongue twisting a lot. But Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are very similar to each other.

Oh I see, I thought you said French, Spanish and Italian, but you actually said Spanish, Italian and Portuguese are similar… okay, noted 🙂

Well even in the big cities I prefer outside areas not center areas just for near to wild and some more peaceful and farther from city noise.

Sure, it’s always better to be in or close to a green area…

And yes I do spend time with him but less since he’s spending more time indoors.

How come? Is he ill or the family just changed their habits?

Hmm they never had to tell me to “behave” because I was very observant. And grandfather used to talk about other kids of my age how much they have “accomplished” and well behaved they are. So without much thought I was like okay as a kid this age I have to be well behaved and not do many silly things like other kids doing who aren’t much “accomplished”

Right, so it seems you got the message that spontaneity, silliness, or rather playfulness (which are the qualities of the inner child) are not good qualities if you want to achieve something in life? And so you did your best to behave yourself, to hide that playful side of yours in front of other people.

Perhaps that’s why you’re struggling to show that side of yours to your partner, fearing that you would be judged? Because your parents and grandparents judged it too?

Hmm I think my freedom and ability to do whatever I want. … Also ability to go wherever I go. It’s like a parent would be like don’t go to hike there it’s dangerous out there and then even after she said no and I’d go I feel guilty.

This is what I am reading from your words: that what you cherish the most is your freedom and ability to do whatever you want, without feeling guilty.

It seems you’re very sensitive to your partner’s moods and are worried if she is worried, to the point of not being able to sleep:

Because like in relationship I care too much and even if they’re little careless about their health or things that affect them or make them worry it makes me worry 3x times more and I can’t focus on my things.

After that I noticed that in relationships I just loose myself in the process because over caring and overthinking about partner. And it affects my mood and even the sleep so…

If I even notice even a little that what I suggested made them uncomfortable I wouldn’t hesitate to change my plans just to see them not disappointed.

What you’ve described is similar to being co-dependent: your mood depends on your partner’s mood, and if she is unhappy, you have the need to make her happy. And you can’t be happy if she’s not happy. You can’t separate your own mood and happiness from that of your partner.

Also, you don’t want to cause any frustration to your partner, so you’d rather cancel your plans than to see them disappointed. You’d rather adjust to your partner than see them displeased with you. However, you don’t want to adjust and stop doing what you love doing, since you’re a freedom-loving guy. So you’d rather not have any relationship at all than have to sacrifice the things you love for another person.

The truth is that you don’t really have to sacrifice the things you love – it is only your belief that you do. The problem you have (if I am seeing this correctly) is that you can’t stand your partner’s frustration. It’s too painful for you and you feel guilty. So rather than try to assert yourself or negotiate, you run away from the relationship entirely. It’s easier for you to live without a constant feeling of guilt.

Am I seeing this right?

Dear Helcat,

You’re welcome and thank you for your kind words!

I find objective third party opinions very helpful, I often ask friends how they perceive situations.

It’s great that you’re open to feedback and ask trusted people for their view on the matter. That’s a very useful practice!

Your explanation makes sense. I can see now that Anita was sharing an overview of her thought process. That makes it less painful.

I am glad it helped you a little. Yes, I believe anita wanted to be transparent and so she over-shared, unwittingly.

So I’ve spent quite a lot of time studying your and anita’s interaction, and have noticed some patterns. I just want to say that what I am about to share, I am sharing in good faith. My intention is not to judge either you or anita, or take sides, but to give you my impression as an outside observer, and hopefully help in some way.

So what I’ve noticed is that there were plenty of interactions where both you and anita saw things clearly and responded from your true self. That’s when you got along well and had good and mutually respectful conversations.

But there were also situations in which either one of your or both of you reacted from a wound (and misinterpreted things, or overreacted), which then caused conflict.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean.

An example of the situation where you saw things more clearly and anita refused to see it is when you warned her about treating some members harshly, e.g. when she addressed one member with the label “incel”, or when she accused another member for creating multiple accounts and lying. She strongly refused that she was disrespectful to anyone (“you keep repeating that I disrespect OPs when this is not the case“), and instead accused you of having a personal vendetta against her.

An example of the situation where anita had a good intention and you were too sensitive is when you believed that she was questioning the validity of your childhood trauma. The way she phrased her post was triggering for you, and you wouldn’t accept her explanation of why she didn’t mean anything bad.

An example of the situation where both of you were too sensitive and overreactive is when you thought that anita was talking about you on the thread School Bullying, when she wasn’t. You interrupted her conversation with another member, and asked her to stop referring to you and the disagreement she had with you. I’ve checked her post and she really wasn’t referring to you, but was talking about her mother’s bullying. I am pretty sure you’ve misread it.

But then anita – reacting from her own wound – escalated the conflict and accused you of cyberbullying and stalking. Which were definitely inappropriate accusations.

I think another example of such a situation, where both of you had an unbalanced reaction, was your first conflict, which happened in May, on the thread Attacked.

Anita was sharing about her progress with her mental health, but then you pressured her to admit that her anxiety is still high, and told her that her bar for happiness seems low. That wasn’t very kind… You later explained what you meant and that you wanted to encourage her to rise above her limitations. But even if so, that post of yours wasn’t very supportive.

Anita’s reaction to that post was severe. She stopped addressing you directly and instead addressed the rest of the community, show-casing you as an example of “how not to communicate”. Her tone was pretty condescending and belittling. In my opinion, that post was quite hurtful.

A few days later anita apologized for that, saying: “Dear Helcat: I apologize for expressing anger at you harshly and indirectly. I felt too hurt and too threatened to (1) be aware of my feelings,  and (2) to express my feelings clearly and directly.”

Following her apology, you apologized to her too for unwittingly causing her pain. You also explained where you were coming from when you “pressured” her about her anxiety. You two smoothed out the conflict (on May 18) and ended the exchange on a positive note.

This mutual apology is an example of both of you acting in good faith, with empathy and understanding for each other.

So this is the dynamic, i.e. the four types of interactions that I’ve noticed between you and anita. I’d love to hear your feedback and if you think there’s some truth in it.

A lot more could be said, but I wouldn’t want to push my opinion. If you found this helpful, I’d be happy to go into more detail.

Dear SereneWolf,

How are you doing?

I am having another not so good period health-wise, so I am not too cheerful. But holding on, keeping hope that it’s going to get better eventually…

Well romance languages are kind of similar to one another, So not so hard and it’s just fun watching old vintage French and Italian movies on weekends so…

True, I was told that Spanish and Italian are sort of similar. Don’t know about French – everyone says it’s pretty hard….

Yes. I get bored pretty quickly. If there aren’t enough things that interest me

For a guy who watched a lioness give birth… no wonder that cities are boring 😀

Okay so I’ll note this and try to work on that. Thanks! In some situations like when my anger gets triggered I do notice that directly, be mindful about it and then ask questions and calm it down after some slow breaths

You’re welcome! Great you’re already practicing mindfulness when you notice you’re getting angry…

Hmm I think I can trust these affirmations if I reach to this step after being mindful about this specific trigger

Great! So at least intellectually you know you’re free to make your own decisions and no one is forcing you to tie the knot.

Yes that’s what I’m working on.. You think act as a father figure to my cat counts?

Haha… I don’t even think it’s possible with cats – they are great individualists and pretty sneaky 🙂 But you can be a father figure to that boy from the neighborhood, whom you were teaching how to ride a bike.

And It should be without judgements. Like I know I’m in touch with my inner child and I still do lot of things that an adult actually doesn’t do like I turned into a kid when I’m with kids, Different kind of bicycling, Singing and dancing for no reason (Lot of times while cooking, Watching Anime and Cartoons and lot of things like that) And I kind of fear they would judge me for that and not actually understand

I get it… that’s great that you’re in touch with your inner child! When you were a child, did you feel judged by your parents for being spontaneous and a little silly? Did they often tell you to “behave”?

I don’t like being even partially “dependent” on someone or affected by them. It could be because I like to control (It’s lot better than before but still) but not being controlled. Because I prefer some things should be my way.

Can you give me an example? What in your life should be your way and you wouldn’t agree to any kind of compromise?

Thanks a lot!

You’re very welcome, SereneWolf!

oops, something went wrong with formating. Reposting….

Dear Lori, Helcat and all,

I too am sorry that anita chose to leave, even though nobody forced her to, moreover she in her most recent posts expressed that she doesn’t want to leave. I too valued her contributions immensely and I believe that her presence on the forums will be irreplaceable, since she was completely dedicated to helping each and every person, and no one’s post was left unanswered. Also, she offered super valuable advice and insight to so many people. Her contributions will really be missed 🙁

I agree with Lori that the situation with anita and Helcat isn’t black-and-white. In my opinion, there was sensitivity on both sides. For example, anita didn’t mean to question the validity of Helcat’s childhood trauma, but Helcat seems to have interpreted anita’s words as questioning and possibly accusing her of lying, which wasn’t anita’s intention.

But, truth to be told, anita has in the past accused several members of lying and inventing their stories, which led to some of those members leaving and deleting their accounts. I am not sure if this is what made you, Helcat, super vigilant and believing that anita accused you of the same, when in fact she didn’t?

I want to stress that anita helped hundreds of people with kindness, care and respect, whereas the instances where it wasn’t the case were pretty rare. The good that she did far outweighed a sporadic problematic reaction here and there.

But if we want to talk about how to prevent such situations in the future (answering to Lori’s question “If anyone has any thoughts to share to help me better address situations like this in the future, feel free to post them below!”), what I see as problematic is that I started to censor myself whenever I noticed a potential problem in anita’s reactions (which, I want to stress again, was very very rarely).

But nevertheless, anita reacted very strongly to criticism, even constructive criticism, directed at her. And she came up with a rule, which I believe isn’t a part of the forum guidelines, which she repeated to Helcat too (on Sept 18, 2022):

To promote safety and calm in the forums, it is important that Responders (members who choose to reply to an OP, in the OP’s thread)  do not criticize other Responders. It is not at all necessary because a Responder can thoroughly express his/ her understandings, convictions, etc.-  as many times as she wants, and at length- without criticizing other responders. Not only is there no benefit to the OP in such criticism, but it can easily turn an OP away from his/ her thread and discourage Responders from responding because of fear of being criticized.

This “rule” basically says that we shouldn’t say anything, even if one member is being unkind to another member. Anita presented this rule to me too, when I once tried to point out that she might be unkind or insensitive to another member. She reacted very strongly, explained why it was wrong of me to address her directly in the OP’s thread, and told me she wouldn’t be communicating with me again.

I’ve recognized it was a sensitive spot for her, and I think she too realized it in the meanwhile (and we’ve smoothed our misunderstanding since). However, the result was that from that moment on, I’ve never said anything, even if sometimes I’ve noticed things that bothered me.

This “rule” silenced me. I didn’t want to say anything to anita, because she truly did so much good on the forums and I didn’t want to provoke unnecessary conflict.

I understand how this rule can be beneficial too, because it prevents exactly that – unnecessary conflict and criticism among members. But when taken to the extreme, it can discourage constructive criticism as well, and things are swept under the rug, instead of clarified and talked about.

So, I agree with Brandy that this could be an opportunity for growth for all of us. At least it is for me. As much as I cherish peace and no conflict, sometimes it is necessary to speak out, even if it might be uncomfortable. Constructive criticism, when there is a loving intention behind it, isn’t bad, but necessary.

It is also my impression that Helcat’s criticism of anita was partially constructive (i.e. justified) and partially stemmed from over sensitivity. That’s why I said I believe this wasn’t a black-and-white situation. But unfortunately anita saw it as black-and-white. She felt attacked and even stalked by Helcat, and chose to leave. And it’s a huge loss for the community.

I truly hope she works through some things and returns to the forum, because her help, advice and care will be greatly missed.