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This topic contains 372 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  anita 57 minutes ago.

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  • #238019

    Lisa
    Participant

    Trust me Anita, I am not going to get responses from anyone but you and the reason is the same reason strong women are attacked. If I came in here all humble and weak and pretend I was someone the would be interested in saving I would get responses. Sorry I’m real and real doesn’t look good on women.

    #238031

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Lisa:

    I thought someone might respond, if they dare face  your rage, that is.  Also, members are less likely to respond to a thread where they see a lot  of one-to-one exchange, not  wanting to interrupt what looks like a private conversation. In that case, if you start a  new thread for the purpose of attracting  other members, that may be a good idea (I will stay away from it so that it will be more inviting to others).

    You can start a new one and continue this  one, no limit on  number  of  threads per member. I like the idea myself, a  new thread on the topic you just brought up!

    anita

    #238041

    Lisa
    Participant

    I don’t know Anita. No one is going to respond to it unless I play “oh I love you guys” ❤ batting eyelashes unseen. Intellectual conversations by a woman who they don’t want anything from anymore? They weren’t interested in my brain once upon a time. What would make them interested now?

    #238045

    anita
    Participant

    Dear  Lisa:

    There are people who  are interested in brains, in your brain in particular, but I do think men may be intimidated by the idea of communicating with you because of your stated anger at men. Women may be afraid as well, fearing your anger at women who support men. I suppose the way to invite people to a conversation or a debate is to present  the topic as objectively as possible, not angrily on one hand and not going overboard the other way (“oh, I love  you guys” and  so forth).

    anita

    #238093

    Lisa
    Participant

    Everytime someone has contributed to my thread I was thankful and courteous to them.

    It’s a convenient excuse for people not to talk to me. Show me where in my thread where I did not thank someone. I do not want you to but I know I have not not thanked them and I am not giving anyone in this life a free ride to not acknowledge that they simply look down on some women and not others. There is no evidence that I would be anything but respectful to them so then what?

    I always appreciate your input Anita but you are rare. Most people only talk to people uf something is in it for them. I’m obviously not important. I’m not important to people. I would like to find out why?

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 6 days ago by  Lisa.
    #238099

    Lisa
    Participant

    I just want my intuition to be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong.

    #238181

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Lisa:

    Yes, you did thank every member who posted on your thread, acknowledged each and every one and did so gracefully. Sometimes when you didn’t feel well or rushed you posted to members that you will respond at a later time and you indeed kept your word.

    I am rare in that most  members post once or a few times at the  most, but do not return to a thread following that one time, so this part is not rare in your thread, members  not returning. As a matter  of fact, often the original members  don’t return to their own threads!

    You, Lisa, are as  important/ valuable a woman and a human being as any woman and any human on the face of  this earth. The fact that you did  not and do not have a relationship  with a  man is not proof that you are not important.

    anita

    #240007

    Lisa
    Participant

    I do not have a problem with however people mutually and happily conduct thier relationships. The injustice I feel is when thier way permeates the collective culture so much that it effects the happiness and self esteem of others.

     

    It’s very difficult for me to accept that I can not be loved for who I am.

    #240011

    anita
    Participant

    Dear  Lisa:

    What  I understand about people and love is that  we are all born loving, loving those who take care of us when we are children, parents usually, grandparents in some  cases, older siblings in other cases. Babies and toddlers love, always, reaching  out for love, will do  anything  to please, to  be  liked.. loved.

    And then life happens, rejecting parents, critical parents, unavailable, neglectful and  the  child is often Alone. Sometimes so very Alone that the child hardens, becomes hard. As this hardened child grows up,  there  are  so many other hardened  people out there… so love is difficult to find.

    Many of the relationships you think of as loving are not, they are  only attempts at love.

    To be “loved for who I am”- that  is almost a miracle when it happens, not  only for you, really.

    anita

    #266981

    Lisa
    Participant

    It’s so frustrating!!!!! I go online to find help. I can’t find help anywhere. Every article tells me it’s fine to be a single woman. Yeah if that is what you want, yes, I agree, if that is what you want THEN it is fine….but what if it is not what you want?

    I have been informed since day one that I am to be alone. No one has ever been concerned that I’m alone. Just trying to get me to accept it. I either received no help at all or had people pushing me towards men who weren’t right for me or men who only saw my worth physically.

    I can’t stand injustice. When I see spoiled people in this country getting their every whim fulfilled while others in the world are treated poorly it makes me angry.

    I don’t understand it. I was a pretty girl. I had everything. I had everything. I don’t understand why no one showed an interest in me.

    Don’t tell me how I should feel or what I should think. These articles act like I am single by choice. Some are but I’m not. No one ever asks or looks deeper to find out why something is the way it is. I can’t fix a problem if I don’t know what is wrong and I am on a lost quest for an answer.

    Every article talks about how it’s fine to be alone. It IS fine if that is what makes you happy but for people trying to fix what they view as a problem…it’s not helpful.

    I was a pretty, talented, friendly and bright girl who started out life not expected and then being continually rejected…sometimes with much disgust in thier voice or a roll of the eyes.

    If I didn’t comply with what boys wanted they would turn on me and made me feel like I wasn’t worthy of any praise.

    I have tried to get help but I am tired of being told it is ok to be single when it is NOT OK for ME to be single. They speak to me likes it an irreversible problem that I have to deal with.

    I am good at researching and I can find an answer to many problems but I can not find an answer to this one.

    In these articles people bring up how they are talked to sometimes about their singlehood but the most painful thing for me is that people, family never ask me why I am alone or feel as if there should be any other way. I seem to run into a few women in my life… mostly older women who are completely put off by me and seem to revel in me not getting ahead or receiving friendship or life of any kind.  It’s very strange. I can not be myself around them because they try to knock me down. These are women old enough to be my mother. They also treat women younger than me like they are worthy of attention from other people, worthy of praise, promotion…it’s like they all represent the mother in “Ever After” thinking only her daughters are worthy of attention and Danielle must be in an obsessive way kept from ever being happy. She can not be happy and I feel like I have run into that mother in every situation in life I have been in. Like it’s thier job that my self esteem.remain low and that I am never to think I am worthy. She’s right there making sure I do not experience happiness because my happiness can’t happen.

    If you have ever seen the movie Ever After I can definately relate to the lead charactor of Danielle played by Drew Barrymore. The anguish she feels in that movie especially whe at the ball and she is attacked..that’s how I feel. Watch that scene and then imagine someone telling that charactor well the way you are treated is all your fault. Ella is outspoken and it does cause her grief. That is certainly true.

    I am sorry I am rambling but I can only talk about how I am feeling and my emotions regarding my problem because I have tried to think about it logically but it makes even less sense to me because there us no logical reason I am by myself all the time.

    Ironically the only people who SEE ME are married men. A few rare women and also ironically men who are much younger than me seem to see my worth as a person.

    I’m so tired. I’m so tired of fighting. I’m so tired of crying. I’m so tired of feeling lonely. I am so tired of not finding the answer to my problem.

     

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  Lisa.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  Lisa.
    #266989

    Lisa
    Participant

    If you have ever seen the movie “Ever After,” I can definitely relate to the charactor Danielle played by Drew Barrymore. The anguish she feels when at the ball and she is attacked…that’s how I feel. Watch that scene and then imagine someone telling that charactor “well the way you are treated is all your fault.” Danielle is outspoken and it does cause her grief. That is certainly true.

    I want to repost this paragraph to make corrections. The charactor’s name is Danielle not Ella and a couple spelling mistakes.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  Lisa.
    #267011

    anita
    Participant

    Dear  Lisa:

    I read and watched the story line and photos from the movie Ever  After because you wrote about it, how you can relate to the character Danielle.

    The story takes place in France in the 16th century. Auguste de  Barbarac, a widower and father  to 8 year old Danielle, marries a woman, Rodmilla de Ghent, a haughty baroness with two daughters, Marguerite (cruel) and  Jacqueline (kind). Later he dies of a heart  attack.  By the time Danielle is 18, the estate has fallen into decline and Danielle is forced to be a servant to  Rodmilla and her daughters.

    One day Danielle stops a man from stealing her father’s horse, it was Prince  Henry…. Later, King Francis tells Henry that he is throwing a masquerade ball where he must  choose a bride… Meanwhile,  Rodmilla schemes to marry  Marguerite to Henry. Later… Danielle catches Rodmilla and Marguerite stealing her  mother’s dress and slippers. When Marguerite insults Danielle’s mother, Danielle punches her and  chases her  through the manor...  Later Danielle is whipped as punishment… Later she  is locked in the pantry by Rodmilla but Da Vinci helps free her, and makes her a  pair of wings to wear to the  ball with her  mother’s dress and slippers. In the ball, Rodmilla exposes Danielle’s identity (as her servant) and Henry angrily rejects Danielle. Danielle bursts into tears and runs away, leaving a slipper behind… Danielle is sold to a lecherous landowner who makes sexual advances towards  Danielle, but frees her after she threatens him with his own weapons. Henry finds  her, apologizes to her, calls her  by her true name, places the  slipper on her foot and proposes to  her. ..  Later, Rodmilla is stripped of her title by Queen Marie and she and Marguerite (Danielle is introduced to them at this point as Prince Henry’s wife) are sentenced to work as servants in the palace laundry. Jaqueline, because she was  kind to Danielle,  is spared of this punishment, marries Laurent, the  captain of the  guard who she  met at the  ball and moves into the palace with the royal family.

    About  the movie, a critic said (Wikipedia): “This  novel variation is still set in the once-upon-a-time 16th century, but it features an active, 1990s-style heroine- she argues about  economic theory and  civil rights with her royal suitor- rather  than a  passive, exploited hearth sweeper…”

    You wrote  about the scene at the  ball: “Imagine someone telling  that  character well t he  way you were treated is all your fault. Danielle is outspoken and  it does cause  her grief. That is certainly true.”

    My thoughts: Danielle is made to be a servant and treated  poorly by her evil stepmother (and evil step sister) following bad luck, Danielle’s mother  dying, then her father remarrying an evil woman and  then, her father dying, leaving  Danielle to the mercy of her evil stepmother and stepsister. It  is similar to your story having  been born into bad luck, being sent  away as a baby, then growing  up with an older sister who actually was your  birth mother, unbeknownst to you, thinking your grandparents are your parents, and  that  their older  children are  your siblings, spending lots  of  time  in your room alone, escaping the drama in the  house by blocking your room door, staying  inside, daydreaming of  a  better  life, of  love.

    And like Danielle, you have  strong opinions and you voiced them and you too are strong and  courageous, but  unlike Danielle you didn’t  meet a prince and didn’t  marry him.

    You wrote “Ella” when you meant to  write Danielle at one  point. Ella was the character who played Cinderella in the 2015 movie Cinderella. In that movie Ella lost her mother at a young age, promises “to follow her mother’s dying wishes: to have courage and be  kind” (quote from Wikipedia, these are your values, Lisa: courage and  kindness, just like Ella’s!), Her father remarries Lady Tremaine who has two daughters. Ella welcomes her new stepfamily, despite the  stepsisters’ unpleasant attitudes. Lady Tremaine slowly reveals her cruel and jealous nature when  Ella’s father goes abroad  for business, as  she  pushes  Ella to  give up her bedroom to the stepsisters for the attic. Ella’s father unexpectedly dies during the trip and Lady Tremaine dismisses the  household to save money and forces all of the  chores on Ella..  she  and her daughters mock Ella and forbid her from eating with them… Later, on the night of the ball, Ella tries to join her stepfamily, but lady Tremaine and her daughters tear her dress to shreds and  leave without  her. Ella runs into the garden in tears (she didn’t punch or threaten with weapons, that  is, she didn’t  fight like  Danielle did) and meets an old beggar woman who reveals herself to be her Fairy Godmother. The Fairy Godmother magically transforms a pumpkin into a golden carriage.. and she transforms Ella’s ripped dress into a gorgeous blue gown, complete with a pair of magical glass slippers.

    I wonder, Lisa, when you were a young girl in your grandparents’ house, older siblings around, lots  of drama, loud voices and you alone in your room, blocking the door so no one can get in, were you reading Cinderella (the story before Ella and Danielle), daydreaming about  being Cinderella, being discovered by a prince, rescued from that  house, delivered from being  invisible or unappreciated  into being  seen and valued  as the princess so to speak, the  princess that you really are…?

    anita

     

     

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  anita.
    #267373

    Lisa
    Participant

    I read many many stories in my room when I was younger. I wish that I could say that I specifically wished that. Sadly it became more and more apparant to me that I did not fit into the world. I had no wishes for myself. I don’t know what I was. I was no one. I was this girl who was expected to not be upset about anything, have no fears and go to school for no other reason than I had to. It was important to my grandmother that I go to Catholic grade school. The whole focus in the family for going to school was to get a job, nothing beyond that.

    I loved learning but the teachers and students were not fun in my mind for the most part.

    I had no hope for myself to dream of being rescued. I stopped wanting to participate in the world. I will elaborate later Anita. I have to get up early tommow.

    #267397

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Lisa:

    I re-read the first 2-3 pages of  your thread that started May 1, 2017 and  would like to offer  you my current understanding. First thing I need to bring  up to you is this: I know that you are very sensitive to anything looks or sounds like criticism. I am very interested in not criticizing you at all. I will be focusing on not criticizing you every part of the way. Unfortunately you will probably feel criticized by me anyway, but I will make sure to communicate to you from my  end with no criticism. , I figure, even if you feel criticized and reject what I will write to you, this is okay with me because at the least, maybe you will appreciate my ongoing attention to you, the many hours I spent trying  to communicate and understand you, over a period of 20 months at this point.

    In my effort to  communicate no criticism to you, I will start with the following:

    I have  been a very anxious child and  adult. I have suffered from severe OCD and severe vocal and motor tics (Tourette Syndrome) in my childhood and adolescence. I used to think that there was something wrong with me  from birth but I learned that there was nothing wrong with me, that my severe anxiety and diagnoses were a result of being severely injured emotionally as  a young  child and throughout those Formative Years of my  childhood. The anxiety and its symptoms were  formed  in me: I didn’t  choose anxiety and I didn’t choose its symptoms.

    Therefore when I talk about your severe anxiety and  your symptoms I believe the same  as I believe about myself: there  was nothing  wrong with you. The severe anxiety and its symptoms were formed in you during  a childhood in which you were  injured repeatedly, and severely.

    Another thing, I had a series of … disconnected, unstable, short, non-ongoing interactions with men, but I did  not have a romantic/ love relationship with another until I was older than you are now.

    And now I will put to you my understanding in the simplest, most straight forward way I can but add at quotes from your writing pages 1-3:

    1. You have been severely anxious from a very early age: “I remember all through childhood I had to take a pill everyday supposedly to calm me down… I am always in survival mode with little bursts of ambitious that fizzle out and  then  I just remain in survival mode… I obsess a lot and constantly wash my hands. My obsessions for example was  worrying that if I didn’t pick the right cup something bad was  going  to happen. I also thought I could prevent bad things from happening by whatever shirt I put on that day. I have  tortured myself over that nearly my whole life. Those are just examples of my OCD”.

    2. You quit high school grade 9, worked many low paying, physically demanding jobs, moved around  a lot, sharing apartments with younger roommates, renting rooms,  starting and  quitting post GED education, not pursuing employment in the one educational endeavor that you did complete, interior design, and then, not having experience a single healthy relationship with any person, all because of your severe anxiety. Not because of lack of intelligence, or good  looks, or talent, or work ethics, or ambition, but because you were terribly afraid all along.

    3. You escaped your terrible home life as a child by turning inward and daydreaming, finding solace in your own world of fantasy and make  believe. You daydreamed alone in your room or in the library. In reality you lived a Cinderella kind of life before she met the  prince: “at 15 I stayed at home with my grandfather and  uncles. I didn’t go out. I had no friends. I cleaned the house, did everyone’s laundry and after a couple of years was pressured to get a job…  I missed out on dating. I missed  out on proms. I missed out on friendship… I missed out on being a teenager… I lived with my grandfather and with other men who didn’t always treat me well and I was criticized for not working after cleaning  for them”

    And then when you were 23, your  grandfather died and life got even worse for you, “I left my  childhood home and I lost the one man who wanted me around”. It is similar to how Cinderella’s life became bad, when her own father died, leaving her to the mercy of her step mother and  sisters.

    In your daydreams, you were pursued by a man: “I have never had a relationship. I have always longed for  one. Every day  since  I was a teen I have  imagined being in relationships… I have  prayed, wished for, read books to find my soulmate… I wanted a man to pursue me with enthusiasm… All the while I am dreaming  of myself in some alternate universe in a relationship with a man… I have even wished for a man to find me.  It’s so important that he wants me first.  Anything  less I see as failure”

    4. I wrote above that you didn’t  have a healthy relationship with another person because of your severe anxiety. Now specifically why I believe you didn’t have a romantic relationship with a man: because you are so very sensitive  to  criticism, in the initial interactions you did have with men, you perceived criticism very early on and withdrew: “I can not handle an ounce  of criticism from a man or anyone else.When men criticize me now I just want  to ask ‘Why?’ ‘Why do men hate me so much?’ I want to  just leave  everything and go away”. Basically, you can’t have a relationship because you have not been able to not feel criticized: “Relationships of any kind are difficult for me unless it’s in service to someone and that someone never criticizes me”.

    A relationship for you has been impossible from the beginning because in your fantasy imaginings you are not criticized by the man/Prince. But in reality, it is impossible for a man who happens to not be critical, to not be perceived by you as not critical of you.

    5. You incorrectly believe that there is an evil spirit of sorts that follows you around and sets you up in situations where bad things happen to you: “it seems I have a poltergeist following me around setting me up in situations that often are distressing  for me.. trouble .. always finding me”

    In reality you have  been experiencing so much distress because of the severe anxiety and its consequences: remaining single in low paying jobs that are physically  demanding and moving around a lot, living with roommates or renting a room in someone’s home. This very lifestyle, a result of your anxiety, invites troubles, such as with roommates you wouldn’t otherwise live with passed a certain age, if you had a stable  career.

    6. Who is Lisa outside of fear- an artist and a writer, a lover of books and school:

    “I am an artist who doesn’t draw and a writer who doesn’t  write… an artist who loved books and school… I’ve wanted to  be a journalist and a writer when I was in grade school… I’ve wanted to  be an art therapist, art teacher”

    And a woman who wants  to be  seen and heard, appreciated and treated with respect and esteem, a woman who wants to be loved.

    anita

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #267461

    Lisa
    Participant

    Anita yes I am anxious all the time and I have been basically all my life. Every minute consists of dealing with reality by putting a face on while I am kept away from my more interesting life in my head.

    Yes I do not know how to relax unless something physically relaxes me like a supplement.

    Yes I am always afraid.

    I look around and see men bend over backwards to please the women in thier life…I didn’t think I was asking too much to want them to pay an ounce of attention to me and I mean me.

    I never believe that anyone would want to be with me so they have to tell me that that’s the case otherwise I feel as if I am being pushy. They have to tell me or I won’t push.

    My family were the only people I have made an effort even though I felt as if I was only cared about because I existed and not because they felt I was anyone special.

    I won’t push myself on anyone. They have to show me or tell me that they want me to be there.

    It is absolutely true that I am sensitive to criticism. It is because I have to do well, I have to be productive, I have to be doing whatever it is I am supposed to be doing in order to survive. I can not mess up and if I feel I have then it’s hard to bounce back. Messing up equals me out of a job, the conversation, my home, the group….I have to be perfect to just be able to exist. Forget about excelling. I am not allowed to be imperfect like other women are. I feel like I have to show inferiority just to be allowed to be in the room and steal the crumbs off the floor. Of course I highly resent this and express my frustration so it’s a no win situation for me.

    My negative interactions with men have been mostly from talking to me like my body was the only thing that existed or attempts to intimidate me into having everything go exactly how they want it to go.

    I’m a little confused about being afraid of criticism from men. I am basically non existent to them and don’t think they would love or hate me enough to have any strong opinion other than the only reason to pay any attention to me: physical or to intimidate me to make things go their way.

    In my daydreaming the men I am involved with are critcal of me but because they either are bothered by my independence or they care about my personality and the criticism is constructive. They criticise me to help me. In reality they don’t care. So I have to say in my fantasies I am criticised but it is usually because they feel strongly towards me.

    Believe it or not I am thinking logically about the too many coincidences in my life. Too many times things are just set up too neatly for me to experience pain or frustration.

    I could go over and over about the moody women who have relationships and yet I do not and it is not only unfair it is mystery to me. I could but I have already said it numerous times.

    You mention about the time you have put in to help me. I have always appreciated your time Anita and that you have tried to help me.

    The thing is I often feel as if I need to help the person trying to help me because I know it is not a problem easily solved. I have been trying since I was a teen.

    It’s strange that I said men criticise me when I believe my biggest problem is that men do not take the time to criticise me at all. I don’t know what I am doing wrong because they never care enough to tell me.

    Men are not afraid of me Anita but saying so clears them of how they really feel which is after I really speak…nothing.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 4 days ago by  Lisa.
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