Home→Forums→Emotional Mastery→Being better at accepting depression
- This topic has 541 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 11 months, 2 weeks ago by anita.
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October 9, 2018 at 5:51 am #229937AnonymousGuest
Dear noname:
You are welcome. “Even though I am loved right now”, you wrote. Can you elaborate on that?
anita
October 9, 2018 at 7:14 am #229955nonameParticipantBy that I mean that I know I am loved by my friends and family, I just don’t always feel it or willing to be vulnerable enough with people to talk to them or let them see me when I’m down. I’m very good at being there for people, but it’s rare that I let people be there for me, but they’re always grateful when i do. Other people love to help me because I think it’s obvious that I try not to be helped
October 9, 2018 at 7:23 am #229959AnonymousGuestDear noname:
You wrote, “I know I am loved by my friends and family”- you include your parents, in family, I assume.
Did you know that you were loved by your parents, particularly by your mother when you were a child?
Did you know it then?
anita
October 15, 2018 at 9:13 am #231145nonameParticipantI did not know I was loved as a child. I did not feel it. I felt alone, and afraid alot of the time. Afraid my mom would be so sad that she couldn’t take of me emotionally (this in fact happened), and afraid that my dad would get so angry and hurt my mom, or lose his job and then there would be no one to care for me. I remember this fear in my body when I think about it. It made me feel paralyzed from the anxiety.
My current struggles are with life feeling meaningless alot of the time, which keeps my motivation and morale low. Also, feeling afraid that there is no one accessible to me in case I need someone emotionally.
I think my meaning and purpose is to cultivate peace on this planet through whatever means I can. My hope is that peace in my mind will leave me motivated to share this joy with others and help end unnecessary suffering in the world, brought about by wounding from our pasts. The same things I want for myself is what I want for those around me.
I’m not sure what I need right now. To know I’m lovable is still probably one of the hardest things to accomplish. I sometimes believe it then other times I don’t.
October 15, 2018 at 10:33 am #231167AnonymousGuestDear noname:
Look at your first paragraph, “I did not know I was loved as a child. I did not feel it. I felt alone, and afraid a lot of the time. Afraid my mom would be so sad… that my dad would get so angry and hurt my mom” (I don’t remember you expressing yourself before in such a raw manner, like a child would)
But notice your second paragraph, it starts with “My current struggles”- as if the past is done with and you are now referring to something different. You keep going: “My current struggles are with life feeling meaningless a lot of the time, which keeps my motivation and morale low. Also, feeling afraid that there is no one accessible to me”-
as if your “current struggles” are any different from your old struggles. But it is the same struggle as before.
You continue: “My hope is.. to share this joy with others and help end unnecessary suffering in the world”. Even your goal in life, your professional goal, is the same as your childhood goal: to make your mother happy and to end her suffering.
Here is my point to you today: you do know your story. You told it before. Problem is that you don’t have you in your story. You were there, but not only in the past. You are still there, still the same boy. You feel the same now as you did then. The problem is that you disassociated (as children do when in danger) and separated from yourself, hating yourself for this and that.
These are only words I am tying here, but I experienced this myself, having my story but not having me in the story. I too hated myself. You will know when you have you in your story once you feel empathy for yourself, no longer hating yourself.
That boy did nothing wrong. He does not deserve your hate. Turn toward him with love. He’s been waiting for so long.
anita
October 15, 2018 at 12:10 pm #231205nonameParticipantThank you so much Anita for continuing to work with me.
Not suprising but again you are correct. I still have not made it out of bed today it’s almost 3pm. I told myself I was going to go run this morning then do my homework, then clean, meal prep, etc. Once I failed to motivate myself to go run in the cold rain, I shut down and considered my day a failure because I couldn’t accomplish the first thing on my list. Problem is now it’s a downward spiral where I feel like a failure and get stuck trying to answer questions of “why can’t I motivate myself?” And then end up doing nothing the entire day. I suppose loving and empathizing with myself despite not accomplishing my goal for the day is the answer as you suggested.
I think I love myself, until someone makes me aware that im really just shaming myself to get things accomplished. In this moment I’m even angry at myself for not seeing that self hatred dynamic clearly this morning and moving on with my day. Perfectionist tendencies. I think “why should it take anita pointing that out to you for you to understand that you’re not loving yourself. You should love yourself better!” Which is not helpful to actually loving myself. Shaming myself into loving myself makes no sense.
How do I let go of this constant frustration and criticism of myself? It’s difficult because I have people tell me good things about myself constantly and I wonder how long I can keep up impressing people. I’ve got the whole imposter syndrome feeling going on. That i feel like a failure to myself but others see me as talented, strong, and creative. However I continue to think of myself as not good enough. The level of frustration I have with myself grows as I write this. I have no reason to hate myself but continue to do so. Why do I continue to hate myself? It no longer serves me, I know this but continue to do it anyway.
October 15, 2018 at 1:29 pm #231219AnonymousGuestDear noname:
I am not focused enough and read just a bit of what you wrote. I will be back, re-read and reply to you in about fifteen hours.
I have thoughts regarding why you hate (intense, prolonged anger at) yourself. I already gave you my thoughts on the matter before, repeatedly (the mental unit concept, for one). For me to come up with something new, or a new angle, can you tell me about your anger toward your mother: what or where is your anger at your mother?
Back in fifteen hours or so.
anita
October 15, 2018 at 3:25 pm #231237nonameParticipantThat’s the problem. I rarely experience anger towards others. It’s very difficult for me to be mad at my parents because I know they were completely unprepared to raise me and my sister. I have alot of empathy for them. I continue to find it odd that you focus alot on my mother. I see my mom trying. My dad not so much. When I do experience anger about my childhood he comes to mind much more often than my mom. He was violent, angry, and forgot to pick me up from the bus stop or school many times. My mom was depressed and sad yes, but she at least tried, I could at least depend on her to pick me up from the bus stop and didn’t have to worry about being outside for hours waiting.
I don’t talk to my mom about her feelings at all anymore. And I rarely talk to either one of my parents anymore at all.
I’m angry at myself because I think I’m not worthy. Like I’m not lovable. Yes I get it it was my parents job to love me, they failed, so now what? It’s my job to love me, to be compassionate with myself for not being able to do everything perfectly all of the time.
October 16, 2018 at 4:48 am #231285AnonymousGuestDear noname:
“I continue to find it odd that you focus a lot of my mother”- when addressing an emotional illness since childhood, the childhood relationship with one’s mother, one’s primary caretaker, is not odd. Your brain was formed in the context of that very relationship.
In that formation, the following was cemented early on: empathy for mother, no empathy for noname; no anger at mother, anger at noname.
I focus on your mother and not on your father because your empathy as a child was with your mother: “I felt alone, and afraid a lot of the time. Afraid that my mom would be so sad.. and afraid that my dad would get so angry and hurt my mom“.
Your brain developed within a mental unit with your mother, not with your father. Your father was there and was influential, of course, but your point of view as a child was your mother’s-yourself, seeing him on the outside, hurting your mother-yourself.
My input this morning: you are in Healing Purgatory. You are stuck, not healing. To be in the process of healing you will have to address that mental unit and you don’t want to. Visiting it feels badly, like hell, so you stay away from hell. But you are not getting any closer to heaven either, to healing, that is.
I mentioned before that your thinking is based on the wrong foundation, like a building collapsing again and again because the foundation is faulty. The fault is in this very early cemented arrangement: empathy for mother, no empathy for noname; no anger at mother; anger at noname.
Here is another imagery: you have an infected area, a wound on your right arm, it is red, swollen, the skin is broken but it doesn’t hurt. So you don’t clean it, treat it or bandage it. Your whole body hurts because of that wound, pain vibrating from it and it hurts everywhere else, but you don’t see the connection because the wound itself doesn’t bother you.
So I have communicated to you repeatedly on this thread: but noname, look: your wound, it is red and swollen and bleeding, this is why your left arm hurts, and your legs and your head and heart. Notice the wound, I say, treat it. But you say: how odd it is that you are pointing to my right arm, it doesn’t hurt! I see no problem there!
In your recent post you wrote, “I know they were completely unprepared to raise me.. I have a lot of empathy for them”- empathy with mother, none with noname. Another thing: you know that as a child you didn’t say to yourself (and again, I am focusing on your mother for the reason I already indicated), you didn’t say to yourself: I am alone while my mother is depressed in her room, having left me alone, but I understand, she is not prepared to be a mother.
You know you didn’t think that way! More likely you thought: my mother left me alone because I am a bad boy, I didn’t make her happy. I should have made her happy. My poor mother has such an inadequate son! I hate myself!
The italicized is that wound that keeps vibrating pain into your life. Not addressing, cleaning, treating and dressing this wound will keep you in Healing Purgatory forevermore.
anita
October 16, 2018 at 3:09 pm #231369nonameParticipantThank you for being so patient with me through this process.
What you’re saying about my mother makes more sense than ever now. I understand the focus there.
I would argue however that I haven’t completely stopped the healing process. No doubt it has been difficult and I’m at crossroads right now that will either be empathy for myself or empathy for my mother and father. Could I not experience both however? This may not be you’re intention but sometimes it seems like you’re advising me to hate my mom. I’m not sure if having empathy for myself means hating my mom in the process. I do not hate her but there is anger there that is difficult for me to access at times, out of fear of feeling “bad”. Is there a way to have empathy for myself without hate for the other? Or are hate and anger not neccesarily Interchangeable?
This is very confusing for me to understand what exactly I need. I know I lack self empathy, but every time I’m hard on myself it’s not like I’m consciously thinking about my mom. I’m more so thinking about how I need to work harder at healing. I’m so sorry if this is confusing. I’m very confused myself right now about what exactly I need.
October 17, 2018 at 5:48 am #231481AnonymousGuestDear noname:
“sometimes it seems like you’re advising me to hate my mom”- to be exact, I am advising you to redirect your hate (hate is intense, long lasting anger). I am not advising you to capture hate from out there and make it your own. You already hate.
Let this sink in, if you will: you already hate. You hate yourself. And you’ve been hating yourself for a long, long time.
This long time self hate cannot be replaced by empathy before it is redirected. The hate has to go someplace else before you can experience empathy for yourself.
But it can’t be successfully redirected anywhere except where it belongs! This is why it hasn’t relieved you of your self hate when you experiences anger at women you dated.
As a child you loved your mother dearly, intensely, desperately, unconditionally. You wanted nothing more than to see her happy. You did everything you could and if it was possible for you to make her happy by climbing the highest mountain in the world, fighting dragons and so forth, you would have.
But she wouldn’t come out of her room for you when you needed her so badly. Your love for her was not returned. This is where you got angry at her but quickly shifted it toward yourself, hating yourself instead.
Got to re-arrange what happened then, redirect the anger so to free yourself from self hate. Then self empathy will be possible. This is the foundation of the building I was referring to: the foundation of your mental health has to be you being free from self hate.
There is no other way for you to free yourself from that self hate. After all, you tried otherwise and failed; there is no way to succeed unless you tend to the foundation.
anita
October 17, 2018 at 10:18 am #231535nonameParticipantThank you for reply Anita
This redirecting of hate where it belongs makes more sense and the with me since you put it as “long lasting anger” when I think of hateful people I think of people who lack compassion altogether. That’s what I don’t want for myself. However the fact is that is not who I am, I do have a great deal of compassion just not for myself. The difficult part continues to be opening myself up to the experience of anger, I have done it in the past, yes, but I’ll fall back into old habits and hate myself again then get depressed all over.
In this moment I even lack compassion for myself receiving help from you. I think “13 pages and 190 replies for me to get the point finnaly, something has to be wrong with you” of course this is faulty thinking and I will continue to struggle with it, but awareness of when this is happening is the first step to begin combating the negative beliefs about myself with compassion and placing those negative beliefs where they belong outside of me.
I haven’t filled you in but I have been going on dates for the past month or two and I find myself genuinely more compassionate towards women for the most part. I don’t internally shame women for their pasts anymore because I see them the same as me, searching for connection and looking to get their needs met. Of course I still struggle with trust and being attracted to pain. But I’m more conscious of it now than ever. I chose to keep seeing a confident woman, over a woman with low self esteem who had just gotten out of an abusive relationship. I noticed myself more attracted to the woman with less confidence because I wanted to fix her. I decided to try something different though and stopped seeing her because of the awareness I’ve learned here about my own history. I do believe I’m moving in the right direction, and trying to stop harming myself.
It is unbelievable to me that through our written communication on this site so much has been accomplished. Yes there is much work left for me to do throughout my life, but I don’t even know how to Express to you how grateful i am to have someone as patient and caring as you to go to for help. It brings tears to my eyes thinking about how much love you give everyday to people and if no one else tells you, I sincerely want you to know you have helped me change my life for the better. You challenge me without shaming me, you are an amazing human being. Thank you so much Anita.
October 17, 2018 at 11:36 am #231559AnonymousGuestDear noname:
I am not very focused but read part of your recent post. I will read it all attentively tomorrow morning. For now, I am touched by your expressed appreciation of me, an “amazing human being” you wrote about me, doesn’t read… easy to believe, not yet. Maybe tomorrow, maybe another day when I re-read it.
I will answer shortly a couple of other threads and be back to yours in about sixteen hours from now. Be good to yourself, please.
anita
October 18, 2018 at 5:44 am #231667AnonymousGuestDear noname:
You are very welcome. Thank you for your kind words. I value and appreciate our communication.
“when I think of hateful people I think of people who lack compassion altogether”- hateful people are people who feel intense, ongoing anger. Everyone feels anger, animals feel anger, it is not an indication of a good or bad character.
A lot of people misunderstand anger, believing they are bad people for feeling angry, especially at one’s parents. I misunderstood.
When a person really hurts you, it is natural to feel angry. There is a purpose to anger, to protect the animal/person from harm or from more harm. It is a purpose that promotes survival, the primary interest of all living things.
There is no way for us to force feelings. You don’t feel anger at your mother, so you don’t. If you find a way to no longer feel anger toward yourself while not getting angry at your mother, please do find that way.
“I still struggle with trust and being attracted to pain… I chose to keep seeing a confident woman, over a woman with low self esteem who had just gotten out of an abusive relationship… I noticed myself more attracted to the woman with less confidence because I wanted to fix her”
You decided to “try something different though and stopped seeing her”- good choice, indeed you are “moving in the right direction”.
For the purpose of moving further in the right direction, I have a few questions regarding what I quoted above, answer or not, I am fine if you answer and fine if you don’t (you choose, I would like to continue our communication regardless):
1. “I still struggle with trust”- who betrayed the trust of noname the child?
2. “I still struggle with.. being attracted to pain… a woman with low self esteem who had just gotten out of an abusive relationship”- was noname-the-child in an abusive relationship with a parent?
If so, how was he abused?
Is that abuse responsible for your lifetime pain?
Is the motivation in your attraction to pain in others- to resolve your own pain?
anita
October 19, 2018 at 10:33 am #231951nonameParticipantMy trust was betrayed by both of my parents over and over again. I’m not sure if I would call the relationship abusive I had with my mom or dad, yes my dad hit me hard enough to knock me out once, but there wasn’t sustained abuse in my childhood, emotional neglect was present though as my parents weren’t equipped to deal with their own feelings much less mine. I see this early childhood neglect as the reason for much of my pain, I discovered within the past year the extent of the neglect was worse than I was even aware of (i.e. mom attempting suicide while I was a baby in the next room) I understand my attraction to pain and traumatized people as an attempt to connect with people and feel less isolated in this world. I’m attracted to pain for a number of reasons but mostly because I’m still working my way out of the belief that “I need to help mom so she will be available and love me” this continues to show up everywhere in my life with friends, family, and especially dating.
I intentionally chose to date this confident woman recently to challenge my belief that I cant be loved unless I’m helping someone in need. I’m not going to lie it doesn’t feel “right” with her either and I’ve been seeing her for a month. It doesn’t feel right because she doesn’t need me, and I don’t need her. I’m not getting the same rush of feelings I have had in the past with women whom i knew had problems and needed help. I think I liked the insecurity in attachment in the past because it was familiar, but in reality it only added to my stress. I’m struggling to feel excited to see the current girl I’m with because she is honest and genuine, there’s no puzzle for me to solve, she knows herself and is not afraid to be vulnerable. She is on a Visa until next November so there’s also a part of me that doesn’t want to get attached because I know she wont be around long and there’s no possibility of a long term relationship. Probably a good thing for me though because it is teaching me to live in the present and enjoy the moments I do get to spend with her, at the same time I still feel like I want a woman who I can build with and have a secure long term attachment.
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