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August 9, 2018 at 9:00 am #220865AnonymousGuest
Dear Cat:
More regarding Toby. First a summary of what you wrote about him since July 24:
A few months ago he added you to his Facebook account. Your initial thought: “This guy seems to be perfect type…like he was 100% the person I’d go for”. You felt that “he was almost too perfect or too confident or too real.. super confident and a bit arrogant”, and feared that you would come across to him as “a faker” and he would see “the darker sides of(your) life”. In June you messaged him, started communicating, arranged to meet on a Tuesday, he forgot, you got angry and “gave him a speech about my self worth etc.”, he apologized and you met the following Friday.
“He says all the time that he has anxiety”, but you see him nonetheless as “super confident and social”. You wrote: “I saw him as being super confident. Although he would constantly talk about his anxiety”.
You took him to a music exhibition and “he talked the whole time.. literally non-stop”. You went to the beer emporium afterwards and he “continued talking”. He said some nice things to you at the end of that evening.
The two of you kept messaging and he “keeps saying he has anxiety”, but “he comes across as the complete opposite” He told you that “he thinks he looks like sh*&, and acts like sh*& etc.” You wrote, “I’m not sure what to make of that”.
He messaged you “lots and lots of compliments.. when he was drunk. He told you, “he didn’t want me to see him as weak, because he wanted me to want him as much as he wants me”.
Later you complained to him that he tells you nice things when he is drunk but then “hardly replies when he’s sober”. He messaged you back “saying that he barely knows me and it’s too heavy”. You “cried that Sunday, and wasn’t able to go in to work on the Monday”. You shared this with him that Monday, last week, and he told you “he wasn’t reliable now, and not sure that would be good, given my condition”. Then you “gave him another speech about how I’m not his ex, and that it’s not fair to bring that in to our connection, and also that I can’t be the only person working to overcome insecurities”.
Two days later, Wednesday, eight days ago, you messaged him suggesting to have sex with him. He replied: “are you ok? you were upset with me..” You told him “we should just keep it simple- aka just a sexual thing”. You went to his place that day and “he was talking non-stop again”. He told you he was anxious, the two of you drank and had sex.
The following morning, Thursday, a week ago, he “was more distant”. You messaged since, but “when he doesn’t reply I worry about the whole thing.. that I’m not wanted… that he’s only using me for sex” and you “deleted the app from my phone”, that was yesterday, Wednesday.
Now my thoughts: You don’t see Toby as who he is. He told you repeatedly that he suffers from anxiety, told you that he feels like a weak person, that he feels and acts like sh*&, but you insist in seeing him as perfect, 100%, strong, super confident. In other words, you put him on a pedestal. The motivation in doing that is that through association with a perfect, strong, super confident man, you too will be strong and confident, that he will shine his light on those “darker sides” of you, and you will be healed.
You attach great significance to the compliments he voiced to you, to every thing he says, as if his Word is as Powerful as he is (not), and your future well-being depends on his words.
Then you get angry at him when he fails to let his (non existent) strength and confidence shine on you from the pedestal you put him on. You got angry that those words he said are said when he was drunk and not sober, that he shared with you about his ex (even though you shared with him about your ex), that he doesn’t reply to your messages quickly enough, for perhaps using you for sex (even though it was you who initiated sex with him). You express your anger at him and he withdraws, telling you he barely knows you, that it is too heavy and so forth.
When you told him that the two of you will keep it simple that Wednesday, it is not something you are able to do. You put him on a pedestal where he doesn’t belong, where he doesn’t want to be, and then you express your anger at him for failing you. This is an impossible situation for you or for him.
Let me know what you think/ feel.
anita
August 10, 2018 at 2:37 am #220965CatParticipantDear Anita,
It’s 10.36am here. This morning I woke up at 6.15ish. Had breakfast and a coffee, and medication. Relaxed and played wordscape – new word puzzle game I have on my phone that I find incredibly relaxing.
I felt different when I woke up this morning – more clear-headed, more free. Free from self-doubt and free from worry. It’s moments and times like these where I feel I have another chance at being like everyone else, and having courage to lead a life like everyone else does.
After the game, I did some therapy work.Then picked up my guitar and wrote more to part of a song. I then showered and got dressed – this is quite big for me as usually I wake up feeling heavy-headed, lots of worry, lots of self-doubt and I end up staying in bed all day.
I am currently eating toast, and getting ready to go to the bank and go do a food shop.
Sometimes it’s hard for me to read your replies, because they are always so in depth. Not because of what you have written, but because talking to someone else about these things means I need to face them. Like reading back on the stuff about guilt and shame. That feeling. I’ve lived for so long with these feelings, memories etc and been ashamed of them so have pushed them to the back. I haven’t really spoken with anyone who is willing to discuss them in such depth, which is a first.
In response to the grief and shame: could you give me an example of how the neuropathways are created? And also, an example of what a trigger might be in the present?
I have an appointment with my doctor on Tuesday – I will discuss the period problem then, and also see if I can increase my anti-depressants as well. I will let you know how it goes.
I agree with the priorities that you listed: 1. Health, 2. Job 3. Anything else.
And that is what I am trying to do.
In regards to Toby… I get the feeling that we are both severely attracted to each other, but it’s all been very fast and intense (as usual). So it’s difficult to navigate what to do.
I should probably say as well, that I do have an unhealthy relationship with social media, messaging and being worried/ anxious about replies etc. I’ve found myself doing that the past week and so I’ve gotten rid of facebook again – it’s really, really, really bad for me – almost like I look to it for answers, if that makes sense?I’m still using Instagram, but am trying to not focus so much on social media and get busy with my life and doing all the things I need to do, and also love….
Also, must say that Toby liked my instagram selfie at like 3.30am last night xD After all my stressing I thought this was funny. Interest is still there, will see how it plans out. And yes you’re right, I’m not putting any expectation on this, just going to take the communication day by day – and starting from the end…That kind of makes sense?? Like, as if I’ve just released that attachment, yes?
Cat
- This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Cat.
August 10, 2018 at 4:48 am #220971AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
Eight hours ahead, Bristol UK. This is where Cat is. As you described in detail what you did this morning and how you felt, I felt like I was there, a fly on the wall observing you making yourself coffee and breakfast, drinking your coffee, taking your medication, playing a game on your phone, doing your CBT homework, writing a new part of a song with your guitar. Maybe as I type this you are at the bank or shopping for food. Almost like I am there, makes me smile.
If you woke up every day like this, feeling “different… more clear-headed, more free. Free from self-doubt and free from worry”, we would be talking about the other stuff, guilt and shame and relationship dysfunction, who wants that distress?
Except that feeling free of distress is not your usual experience. And unlike what you wrote, this freedom is not what everyone else experiences. Most people do not experience this freedom more than here and there, just like you.
I understand the difficulty in reading my posts (I don’t know if you read my most recent one yesterday, the second post). Healing though does take inviting distress into your experience so to slowly, gradually reduce your day to day distress and find that clarity you enjoyed this morning, more and more of it, every day, not just today.
Notice how well you function when you experience clarity, need more clarity, that is clear to me!
You asked a question regarding neuropathways of grief and shame, how they are created and triggers in the present. I will answer you shortly. I will go back to some things you shared about your experience as a child in your family (this is where most of your neuropathways were created regarding shame and guilt) and give you examples from the actual experience you shared.
One more thing, regarding your last few lines, about Toby: “starting from the end… Like, as if I’ve just released that attachment, yes?”- after writing to you my second post yesterday, it is clear to me that the relationship with Toby is likely to end soon, so it is realistic to see it from the end, it is not tricking the mind to believe it will be short. Not sure of it, of course. I may be surprised. But yes, look at it from the end point and ask yourself: what do I want from this relationship today, before it ends, what can I learn today, how can I be true to reality with him today?
When you are ready, if you are, you can read that second post yesterday. Will post to you again later, but again, do take your time, you can read any part or all of what I post to you at your convenience, later, a week later, longer.. or not at all. It is always your choice here and do take your time.
anita
August 10, 2018 at 12:04 pm #221067AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
I know there is no rush, no need to rush, so I will attend to that post I intend to post for you tomorrow, in about sixteen hours or so.
anita
August 11, 2018 at 5:17 am #221155AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
You wrote: “In response to the grief and shame: could you give me an example of how the neuropathways are created? And also, an example of what a trigger might be in the present?”
Let’s look at what you shared February on the second page of your thread: “It’s almost like I feel guilty for simply living my life or being confident or free because my parents never had that freedom… if they can’t have it, why should I? .. I feel guilty for.. putting myself first because my parents never did… I can’t remember one time as a child.. where I was just allowed to be happy or at peace.. it’s like being morally and soulfully contracted to carry out a life under their pain and misery, and feeling like I am harming them if I choose to love myself… it’s the worst feeling in the world”.
Every time we learn, as children and as adult, neuropathways are created, that is, biochemical, physical connections (pathways) between brain cells (neurons). What you learned as a young child, expressed in the above quote, is that to be a good girl you have to be like your parents, live a life of pain and misery.
The problem in this learning is that humans like all animals are averse to pain and misery. And so, you are conflicted: on one hand you want to be a good girl, a good person, but on the other hand you are averse to pain and misery.
This means that if something good happens in your life, soon enough, the pathways involved in this early learning are activated and you feel guilty, to calm the guilt you go back to living in pain and misery.
This learning also led to how you view the men in your life. For example, currently, Toby is an anxiety ridden man. Yet you view him, against evidence and against his own statements otherwise, as a perfect and confident man (“this guy seems to be perfect… almost too perfect or too confident.. super confident”). Your motivation in viewing him this way is to finally have that perfect and confident parent you needed so desperately and for so long, so that you will finally be freed to be happy and in peace yourself, finally freed from that contract to be miserable.
Does this clarify anything for you?
anita
August 14, 2018 at 11:37 am #221465CatParticipantDear Anita,
Bare with me while I respond to all three of the past messages.
In general, I’ve been feeling like I’ve been making progress recently. I’ve been feeling like I’m growing, maturing, being more self-assured and at peace with my life. Feeling like I can be like everyone else. For the first time in my life I feel like I might be able to live the life that I want to. Finding peace with myself, feeling like I might be able to build the life and be the person that I’ve always wanted to be: stable home, feminine woman, happy times, life without depression, a life where I am accepted, and where I end up with a partner who loves me for me.
The past 3 days have been incredibly hard for me. I worked on Saturday, all day. Came home to a letter from work about my attendance and how I’m on a warning etc.I spent Sunday all day in bed catching up with sleep. It has become Autumn now and the wind has gotten colder. I can’t help but feel more alone, and be taken back to memories of the past. I had a lot of intense dreams, about my parents, old friends, and an old boyfriend I had who really used me for sex when I was in love with him. The nightmares were bad.
I’ve been taken back to a state of depression. I released a lot of emotion on to Toby, and messaged him about how I felt inside and about him. It was a lot and too much. There was no reply.
Yesterday I went out for a meal with my spiritual guidance Roy, and an old friend from uni George. The meal was fine, but I drank a lot and was thinking about the Toby thing, and again, was taken back to a place where I’ve been before – longing after someone or something that I can’t have. I spoke to George and Toby, and also was talking to George about Clarence as well (guy I nearly married in Chicago). On my walk home, I looked at the picture of me and Clarence that we took just before we went to get our marriage certificate. Both young, both punk, both as insane as each other to be willing to fall in love with someone so fast.
I got home, and I unblocked Clarence on instagram. I saw a picture he posted of the tshirt design he did on a song that I showed him. I commented on it and said “F*ck you, I showed you that”. He replied saying “F*ck you right back, I was going to give you this for christmas before you went all wishy washy on me”. I said “dude I had a breakdown”. Anyway, after that, I saw that he posted this really horrible misogynistic thing that was aimed at me on his instagram, about ugly girls, calling them bitches and stuff. And I realised then that it wasn’t him that I was looking for at all – because he’s not a nice guy at all, he’s actually awful.
I came to the realisation that for such a long time, I’ve been searching for home. Home. I thought about this, and because my sense of safety, belonging and home was taken from me at such a young age, throughout my teens and 20s I’ve been searching for that in other situations and people – partners, friendship groups, drugs work etc. That hit me hard. Really hard, and I spent last night crying about it and thinking back to when I was really young, and when I was happy as a little girl, when I was adored, and my parents wanted me around.
I posted this on Instagram, a quote by R.M Drake:
‘I want to live in a place where love isn’t a metaphor for sex and silence isn’t a metaphor for fear. Where if you are laughing all day you’re not considered crazy and if you want to actually help someone it’s not to expect something in return. Where small talk doesn’t exist and people genuinely care. And where you and I are closer together. Imagine that what a beautiful thing it can be. I want to go there, I want to grow old there, and above all, I want to love there’.
Beneath the quote I wrote my own paragraph:
‘I want to live in the place where I once felt loved, when my heart was huge and everyone accepted my cuddles and I danced with teddybears. Where everyone gave me constant attention and I played dress up everyday. Where the world was full of curiosities, and I remembered the safe smell of my mothers skin. When I could wake up and be whatever I wanted and it was accepted. I was accepted, and I felt protected. Where my family actually wanted me and wanted to be in my company, and my dad was obsessed with making pointless home videos, just so one day we could watch it all back – simply because he was proud we were his. I want to live in the place where I had a real family and felt like a real visible person in the world, a place where I was unconditionally loved, in that very brief time that I felt like I was wanted, like I belonged, like I had a home. I would feel so unbelievably lucky or blessed if I ever experienced that feeling again in my lifetime, but I know for sure that one day, eventually, that’s where I’ll return to, after life on this Earth, that’s the haven I’ll return to. As for now, I can’t give up on my childhood dreams, or the deep source of loss at the root of all pain: I can’t give up on my soul’s quest for a euphoric state of acceptance, a euphoric sense of belonging, a euphoric haven of home’.
I’ve been thinking about this all this morning. I apologised to Toby last night when I was drunk, but today I sent him a message explaining what’s going on with me, and that I’m coming to terms with stuff that’s happened with my family, and that I should of been adult and not started anything etc. I said for him to take care and to stay real. I don’t expect to hear back from him as my messages have been way too intense and deep for someone who doesn’t really know me.
Cat
August 14, 2018 at 12:07 pm #221467AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
I think you are making progress, that you are maturing, growing, just like you wrote you’ve been feeling. That feeling of home that you miss, I miss it too. Millions of people miss it and millions never had it. I didn’t. As children we make believe best we can because we need that home so badly. We take in anything that looks like love, sound like love, tastes like love and we hold it tight, hold on to it and forever miss it.
You are not alone in your need for Home, a safe place where people care, where people are connected, where no one is alone.
This pain, of not having this place, this Home, it will diminish as you make your own Home little by little. Let yourself feel what you feel without getting alarmed, without trying to stop the feelings… make it safe for you to feel, just as you did when you wrote those beautiful things you shared in your most recent post.
You are not alone. Here, thousands of miles away, there is another person who wanted Home more than anything else, so very intensely. I too looked for it in all the wrong places.
When you communicate with a person honestly, when you do no harm to another and are done no harm by that person, where there is an honest meeting of the minds and hearts, a bit of it (too much too quickly is not it), then there is a little bit of Home in that moment.
A Home is not all-or-nothing. A bit here and a bit there, and it adds up.
anita
August 14, 2018 at 2:31 pm #221499CatParticipantDear Anita,
Thank you. I think that I am growing and maturing, and I need to focus on my own life.
It’s 10.21pm on Sunday, I need to sleep soon, as I have to get up for work at 4am tomorrow. I am sat on my bed listening to Belinda Carlisle – Heaven is a Place on Earth. A song that is one of my “homes”. It reminds me of being young and dancing to this, and it gives me faith of the euphoria in love as well. Such a great song.
I like your description of finding home in different places, bit by bit at a time.
Toby replied and said this:
‘Look, I really hope this doesn’t come across as patronising and I really hope it doesn’t come across as an excuse from a manipulator, because tbh the reason I haven’t replied till now was because I’ve come to understand how you might have seen me and it’s really not representative of who I actually am, but that’s my fault, I’m very closed off and defensive, you’ve seen glimmers of me outside of that but that’s always been my coping mechanism, thats why I can seem either wholly invested or wholly detached, but this isnt about me, bottom line is, and this is why I said I hope this doesn’t come across as patronising etc, you’re a much better person than me, I’m not fishing for compliments, that’s just true, you’re so much more open to bettering yourself and facing your demons and that’s incredible but I’m not like that and that’s why I frustrate you, I just want you to know that I’m a lot of things but I’m not a liar and every positive thing I’ve said about you has been honest, as much as it might seem it hasn’t, I’m sorry I’ve fucked with there your at, I really am but I don’t want you to think it’s been purposeful, it hasn’t, you’re an incredible person, I feel so connected to you personally and physically but for whatever reason I’m not willing enough to get better as you are, and if thats construed as my misdoing then so be it, I’ve essentially waffled a lot of nonsense but the take away is your special and thats a rare thing’.
Thoughts on this?
Cat
August 15, 2018 at 8:09 am #221587AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
His note reads as honest as honest can possibly be, quite impressive to me. Wow. I agree with him, by the way, that you are indeed special and rare (the words he used) and that you are indeed “open to bettering yourself and facing your demons and that’s incredible”. I am impressed, again at the level of honesty in his note to you.
What now, regarding Toby?
anita
August 15, 2018 at 4:19 pm #221661CatParticipantDear Anita,
Yes, it’s been like that since we started talking. Sending those sort of honest paragraphs to each other about stuff. To be fair to him, he has put up with ALOT of self righteous text speeches from me. I think anyone else would’ve blocked me to be honest. That message he sent made me realise how I might be coming across – I may be talking too much about my CBT, tiny buddha, angel numbers, spirituality etc which might be intense and intimidating for someone who isn’t in to any of that…. I would like to reply to him and say that my beliefs don’t make me better than anyone else etc. And just have a chat with him about that.
I also realised that I was becoming attached to his replies, and so I’m trying to hold off messaging him for a while… I don’t want any of this to be a repeat of what’s happened with any of my previous exes, where I was obsessed with them and too focused on them.
Cat
August 16, 2018 at 7:33 am #221713AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
I wouldn’t tell him that my beliefs don’t make me a better person etc. Instead, keep future communications on your part simpler, that is all. Ask simple questions, listen to what he says, get to know him better. Be more of a listener than a talker.
It is a good thing, of course, that you don’t want this to be a repeat. It is your opportunity to practice a non-repeat, especially if and when you feel distressed and driven or compelled to repeat.
anita
August 16, 2018 at 1:54 pm #221797CatParticipantDear Anita,
I replied to that message yesterday and sent an honest message back. I’d type it out here but it’s pretty long. In summary, I thanked him for his honest reply, said that I’ve thought about what I talk about/ post online, and that I’ve realised I’ve been too fixated on learning/growth for a while. I said what happened with Clarence in Chicago, and how I spent xmas alone and it was only really doing tarot cards and having faith that made me feel like I could sort my life out. I said about how sometimes it’s when I lack faith in myself that I look inwards. I said about how there’s loads of things I want to do like learning more guitar, practicing vocals, reading poetry, art exhibitions etc and I’d like to get to a point where I spread my time more equally and not so much focused on the spiritual stuff. I said about how my stories and beliefs are so unique to me and sound weird to other people, but that’s why I love hearing people’s different stories and beliefs etc. And at the end I said that I’d never even thought about him “bettering” himself or being like me at all, and why would I? I said that I liked him because he wasn’t me, has his own obsessions and interests. I also said that he knows more about music than I do, better at guitar etc. and those are things that he is that I’m not etc.
I will see if he does reply to this. But I think my message was fair? Let me know what you think.
Cat
August 17, 2018 at 4:15 am #221867AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
I think the message you sent him is fine. If he does reply, see to it that in communications with him that you do “not so much focused on the spiritual stuff”, just like you wrote to him that you intend to. Like I wrote to you above, keep it simple, ask him little questions, listen to his answers. Learn about him, who he is. It is a gradual process. That in itself would be a new experience for you, part of the non-repeat opportunity: take it slow.
anita
August 18, 2018 at 9:19 am #222033CatParticipantDear Anita,
No reply from Toby as of yet. Such is the way. Such is the way. I don’t know what to say. It’s hard when I feel like there’s a special or honest connection with someone, and then its lost. Again, all I can say is, such is the way, such is the way.
It’s 5.17pm in Bristol. I’ve been in bed all day, as I did a 15 hour shift yesterday, so I’m exhausted. It’s on days like these, where I’m exhausted, feeling like I’m not worth replying to (etc.) that I have to fight my mental health from taking me down depression alley. Trying to remind myself of all the lessons I’ve been learning recently, and all the inner strength I have to make my life what it is on my own. I feel like, when you’re someone who has to teach yourself that, or unlearn the idea that someone else is responsible for your happiness – it really does feel like the impossible.
Cat
August 18, 2018 at 9:39 am #222035AnonymousGuestDear Cat:
Rest best you can, be gentle with yourself. When you notice an unkind thought going through you (ex., you are not worth a reply), correct the thought. You are worth a reply, here I am replying to you right now.
I know the desire for Toby to reply to you is stronger than the desire that I do, but desire aside, really, him not replying to you, is not an indication of your worth. I suggested to you to keep communication with him simple. From what I understand, simple, short messages are or were more likely to be followed by him replying to you.
Living a better life is about doing what is more likely to benefit you, and not doing what is less likely to benefit you. When you do learn about a person, for example, about Toby, and you like him, want more of a connection, you communicate with him in a way that will promote the chances of more connection.
I will soon be away from the computer for about eighteen hours. Be good to yourself and post anytime.
anita
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