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  • #222039
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Thank you for replying so fast. I know, but our connection is different: I feel like I trust you because I know that you are a decent person who listens to understand and who listens to help, and will always take things back to a basis of logic and reason.

    It’s hard to say with the Toby thing. From what I’ve shown you, you seem to insist that he is an anxious guy, but from the things I’ve experienced with him, it can come across that he is actually a liar, or a guy who does this to a lot of girls – if I’m honest. The not knowing who he really is part is killing me.

    I know I can’t fall in to that same pattern of becoming obsessed or fixating on them, as I’ve said before. The only way I can not do this with any guy is by focusing on my own life, and already filling complete and full. I’m finding it hard because I never thought like could be that way, and grew up with it not being so. I am trying so hard to change the way I view myself and change the way I view things, but like I said, sometimes it really does seem like the impossible.

    Cat

    #222067
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    You wrote: “The not knowing who (Toby) really is part is killing me”. You copied his message to you the other day and I was impressed by how honest he was. This is the sentence out of his message that impressed me as honest: “I’m not willing enough to get better as you are”.

    I am now re-visiting the message:

    “I really hope this doesn’t come across as patronizing… as an excuse from a manipulator… I am not a liar”. Well, maybe he is patronizing, maybe he is a manipulator and maybe he is a liar, and these statements are lies meant to disarm the reader, facilitating the reader’s reception of his patronizing, manipulative lies.

    Question: did you express to him a concern that he is patronizing, a manipulator and a liar or did he come up with these on his own?

    “every positive thing I’ve said about you has been honest, as much as it might seem it hasn’t”. Question: did you express to him that you doubt the positive things he said to you or did he come up with his honesty seeming dishonest… on his own?

    “this isn’t about me”- maybe it is. “I’m not fishing for compliments”- maybe he is. “I’m a lot of things but I am not a liar”- what are those lots of things (read like they are not good things)?

    “You’ve seen glimmers of me outside.. my coping mechanism”- elaborate on these coping mechanisms that are responsible for others not seeing him as he is on the inside?

    “you’re an incredible person, I feel so connected to you… you’re special and that’s a rare thing”- then why isn’t he trying to spend more and more time with this incredible, special and rare person to whom  he feels so connected?

    Figuring who Toby is, if he is honest in this message takes knowing the context of the message, most important is whether he was reacting in it to your prior suggestions that he was patronizing, manipulating or lying. My questions above are questions you could have asked him, and maybe you still can, in the future (this is how you get to know him).

    We can explore this if you want, waiting for your answers to some of the questions I asked.

    anita

     

     

    #222291
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    You wrote in your recent post: “you seem to insist he is an anxious guy, but from the things I’ve experienced with him, it can come across that he is actually a liar… The not knowing who he really is part is killing me…I am trying so hard to change the way I view myself and change the way I view things”.

    My thoughts this early morning: when you told me that Toby told you repeatedly that he is anxious, I believed his statement because most people are anxious, and all are anxious at times. And then, “I am anxious” is not a classic pick up line. When you posted a message he wrote to you, I didn’t have the context of previous conversations you had with him. My first impression was that he is an honest man. This impression was not based on communicating with him directly, nor was it based on a gradual process of getting to know him. It was a quick, first impression.

    From my understanding of you, Cat, you don’t get to know the men in your life, you don’t take the time. Instead, you assume they are wonderful, put them up on that pedestal and look up to them as your superiors. Then you proceed to tell them everything about yourself, sort of  sinner confessing to god. As if the man on the pedestal has this superior brain-computer that is able and willing to process the information you give him and figure out what to do so to make your life better.

    And so you share and share with the man, and you don’t get to know him.

    Got to stop doing that- get to know the man. Share just a bit about yourself, the nature of your job, let’s say, and listen to what he says. Ask little questions, listen. If you hear a contradiction in what he says, ask about it, not as an interrogator, but casually, so that you are more likely to get truthful answers. Take your time with the process of getting to know a man. (And don’t tell a man about your recent diagnoses, what is he to do with it? That would be for way later, if at all).

    When you put a man on a pedestal, he will come down from it, it is just a matter of time. You will find out that he is far from perfect, sometimes way too far, and that is a shock to your system.

    Don’t put men on pedestals, don’t put anyone on a pedestal. Get to know people over a long time of back and forth communication, make sharing a two way street, share a bit, ask, listen. Then again.

    I hope to read from you soon.

    anita

     

    #222423
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    You’re right about alot of things there – I’ll address them at a later date.

    Last night I was going to type out the conversation that I had with Toby, to try and get a better view of the situation, but he replied and made things clear:

    He said:

    ‘You’re super sweet, but I don’t want you to put me on a pedestal, not for modesty and not for sympathy but because I’m all smoke and mirrors, I’m okay with that but I’d be a shit head to use that as manipulation, your words hold poetic weight but mine say you have a fantastic ass and I want to eat your pussy”.

    Pretty straight forward there. I feel relieved today, as I’m no longer attached to this ideal image that I thought he was, and have let it go. Later on he also said to me “Not everything needs to hold so much weight” – because I always have a comeback for things. He is right, it doesn’t and it made me realise that I do see a lot of weight in things. However, I think it’s more the case that a lot of men will put their own weight forward, but when a woman does it back its seen as a bad thing.

    Cat

    #222517
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    Yes, pretty straight forward. If he is dishonest at times, and I suppose he is, he is not cemented in dishonesty, he has some social responsibility, some decency, so he has  let you know in no uncertain terms that poetry aside, he … well, you know what he said.

    I didn’t understand your last sentence, “a lot of men will put their own weight forward, but when a woman does it back its seen as a bad thing”, you mean the sexual straightforwardness?

    anita

    #223107
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    It’s Sunday, 3.15pm here in Bristol. I am sat in bed, still under my duvet. My first day off of work and I am having a duvet day. I have 2 more days off of work after today. I am practicing giving myself this time to rest. The sky is white, and it has been drearily raining here.

    In general, I am growing. I had a good chat with my therapist on Friday and we spoke about worth. The lesson I took away was: “Even if you are imperfect, you are still worthy”. And that is something that has made me view my life and my current place where I’m at so much more bearable, and more equal with other people. Even if life isn’t perfect, it is still worthy.

    I was also reading ‘Take me to truth: undoing the ego’ on the bus home last night, and reading about making decisions from a place of unified self, rather than egotistical desires. It made me realise I can release all the worry and doubt, and things that make me feel this way, and direct my energies instead on to the things that I do have and the things that give back to me as well.

    In regards to Toby, I feel like this situation is taking away from my life. I’ve been caught between, thinking that he is bad for me, or thinking that maybe I’m not giving him a chance. But the situation has been too confusing, too up and down etc. And something that isn’t enhancing my life, but more making me worry about why he isn’t being consistent.

    He said this the other day:
    ‘I have to state that you are like a human realisation of a whirlwind, from my mind that’s a positive before you latch on there and lastly you do by now realise I’m an arsehole right? And you know I don’t mean that in a ‘woe is me’ way just I feel lik we’ve had enough exposure to hit the vein, I think I’ve said before that I don’t play games and I’m a dreadful lier but I do jump between versions of me that tune into the more interesting and psychologically driven versions of the world around us and the more detached and straight-forward, if that makes me a royal shit-head then you’re probably right but if not then [sexual suggestion]’.

    I know that I’m such an understanding and open person, but I’ve tried to understand and be honest with him etc. But I think he IS a liar, and he DOES play games. That’s the feeling that I get, and I just feel that this situation is an obstacle preventing me from accepting things that are life-enhancing for me, and no offence to him, but to attract better people.

    He does play games, by replying loads about philosophy, and then not messaging at all. I think he just likes the attention to be honest, and I think he IS manipulative in this and out for his own gain.

    Cat

    #223109
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    It’s raining here too, just south of British Columbia, U.S. You had a good session with your therapist, excellent and your reading has benefited you as well, good.

    “I don’t play games and I’m a dreadful liar but I do jump between versions of me”- it reads to me like Bul****. Why, one may ask? Because to not play games and to not be a dreadful liar, it takes being only one version of himself, the true one! I agree with you, Cat. Reads to me that he is exactly what he claimed here and before to not be: a dreadful liar who does play games.

    “I do jump between versions of me that tune into the more interesting and psychologically driven versions of the world around us…”- what?

    “if that makes me a royal s*** head then you’re probably right”- I think you are right.  Yes, Toby is not on my good list, a person who you should associate with. Not a good idea, I say.

    anita

    #223137
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I wish that everyone was as patient, respectful and considerate as you are. I can find it really hard times with situations – take this Toby one for example. Where I approach people with genuinity, understanding and kindness and do come across liars, bullies, game players and people who aren’t really that nice. I’ve seen so many pretend to be nice or good people – it’s actually quite dark the more I think about it, and a really big problem, especially amongst younger people I feel. Why don’t people WANT to be nice? Or WANT to progress themselves? Or WANT to be decent people??!

    In an earlier message you wrote:

    ‘From my understanding of you, Cat, you don’t get to know the men in your life, you don’t take the time. Instead, you assume they are wonderful, put them up on that pedestal and look up to them as your superiors. Then you proceed to tell them everything about yourself, sort of  sinner confessing to god. As if the man on the pedestal has this superior brain-computer that is able and willing to process the information you give him and figure out what to do so to make your life better’.

    And you are right. I have done this many times with guys, and I am still thinking as to why I do do this. I project an image on to them that I see – decent, caring, reliable, understanding, boyish etc. All these qualities I see in them. Maybe this is what I seek in an ideal boyfriend. Maybe these are qualities that I have in myself, I am not sure. I think I’d like to think that if I am myself, and honest with someone, then the right person will see me and accept me for who I am…. And anyone who doesn’t isn’t worth it. I guess that’s the philosophy I’ve been going with, in terms of being open with guys. I am a big personality, and I don’t hide that from people – sometimes I question myself on doing this, and sometimes I fail to see myself or how I come across. I’m not sure.

    I know, I know. The worst thing about Toby is that he’s intelligent, and chooses to be an asshole. Chooses. He chooses to play with people’s emotions. I’ve sent him this one last message:

    ‘I’m going to be honest, and just say it’s best for me if we don’t talk anymore. I’ve only ever been 100% and honest and real about everything and also upfront and straight up about what I wanted from this. As much as you kept sating you’re not a manipulator or a liar, I think it’s really quite obvious that you are And also only out for your own personal interest or gain. You seem to be able to lie and switch emotions on and off, which is quite sociopathic. And I think you take pleasure in the idea of pursuing someone, or making someone interested in you, to boost your own ego temporarily, and I feel that there’s also a sadism in the way that you flatter people to make them feel like you’re a nice person, and then remove all respect for them and ignore them. I feel like you enjoy, take pleasure from and revel in doing this with people. It’s really quite sad. You’re an intelligent person, but yet you’re so addicted to your own suffering, or maybe really are just a sadistic sociopath, that you don’t use your own intelligence and experience to heal. You just keep creating more hurt and more pain by presenting the world with falsities all the time.

    I did try and understand you and talk to you on a level, but you proved again and again that you weren’t the person you initially said you were. Which begs the question: do you even know yourself? I’ve been torn as to whether you’re this emotional, sensitive guy who’s been hurt and uses the asshole card as an excuse to not get close to people, or if you are just a sociopath. Even the term ‘Fuck boy’ is a surface level label for a sociopath centered on women – stemming from years of sexism, gaslighting, misogyny and male privilege. Either way, your attitude and behaviour isn’t anything special. I’ve seen it before and I’m sure I’ll see it again. It isn’t unique or individual, it isn’t intelligent, it isn’t attractive and it isn’t beneficial in any way, shape and form to our culture. It’s actually just cowardice and in turn actually turns your own persona in to a product of the society you claim to analyse and talk about a lot. I don’t think you have a right to point fingers at a culture or society when your behaviour adds to and creates some of its problems as well.

    I think you crossed paths with me because I’m intelligent and can see past all the bullshit. It’s just another disappointment for me, being a caring person, as I genuinely did give a shit about you and did feel a natural passion there, but now I think it’s all just been part of this false fabrication you’ve been showing me. I don’t do well with being fucked with which is why I’m telling you the harsh truths. I don’t know what you gain from this apart from rubbing your hands in sadistic greed and pleasure at the thought that you hurt me, but you haven’t – you’ve just made me realise all the qualities, feelings and treatment that I don’t need or want in my life, and made me realise the real lack of progression that is currently happening.

    If you’re left with a sense of pleasure, pride or ego boost from the time, energy or attention I’ve given to you then you’re mistaken. Because I get to walk away with a renewed insight in to my own life, standards and position in society, whereas you’re left with my harsh truths. What’s sad is that the person you presented yourself to be initially, and the person in my head – that I saw a lot of mutual qualities in, like honesty, genuinity, individualism, passion, depth – I get to walk away with all of that still, and continue to live on that vibration. But you don’t get left with that, you just get left with your empty shell of lies’.

    Let me know thoughts,

    Cat

    #223223
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    Thank you for the kind words. Regarding the first part of your post, “I genuinely approach people with genuinity, understanding and kindness and do come across liars, bullies, game players”- here is the best approach as I see it: do approach people this way, but just approach, then wait, see what they do. If they seem to be decent, approach a bit more, being genuine, understanding and kind. Then wait. If you notice that the other person lies, or  you suspect he lied, pause. Do not proceed being genuine, kind etc. Ask questions, wait and learn.

    If you conclude what you concluded her about Toby, exit the interaction, end contact. This way you don’t open expose yourself to unnecessary hurt and harm.

    Remember that upon reading one of his messages to you I was under the impression that he is honest? That was a first impression. If I read that message twice, I would have noticed something less than honest. So got to take the time to get to know a person. Don’t take their words as the truth. If they talk long enough, their honesty will be revealed. Pay attention over time. And don’t get overly involved and invested before you get to know a man well enough.

    “Why don’t people WANT to be nice… to be decent people??!” A lot of the time because they were nice and decent as children but were betrayed by their parents/ adults they trusted. There is always a reason, but your job is to approach with caution, learn, evaluate, proceed one step at a time.

    Regarding projecting “an image on to (men)… decent, caring, reliable, understanding, boyish”, all but the boyish is what a child needs in a parent. As the young adult that you are, you still need these things that you didn’t get, a decent, caring, reliable and understanding parent, so you make believe a man is these things and therefore you will finally have what you needed.

    How a woman views a man is a lot about what she needed and didn’t receive from a parent, plus the added sexual/ romantic element that is added to the psyche of the girl-turning woman.

    “I’d like to think that if I am myself, and honest.. then the right person will see me and accept me”- this is what a child says to herself: if I will be good, then my parent will be good to me. A child doesn’t understand that her parent can be a bad person. So she tries and tries to be good, as if the parent/ man’s goodness is just waiting for your goodness to be expressed.

    Regarding the message to Toby, it is a good exercise in you venting. But if you want to communicate effectively with people, to be clear to them, give them less of a reason to shut down before they get to the second paragraph, got to write/ say what is true but less,  and avoid the use of psychiatric terms, such as sociopath and sadist.

    Here is my suggestion of editing (for future reference, to consider in future interactions with others):

    It’s best for me if we don’t talk anymore. I’ve only ever been 100% and honest and real about everything and also upfront and straight up about what I wanted from this. As much as you kept saying you’re not a manipulator or a liar, I think it’s quite obvious that you are and also only out for your own personal interest or gain.

    You pretend that you are a nice person, honest, genuine, passionate, deep, but you are not these things. You’re an intelligent person. It is a shame that you don’t use your intelligence to heal, but instead, you use it to create more hurt. You hurt me.

    This is it, all that I would have sent to him.

    anita

    #223457
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I hope this message finds you well.

    I think I am so keen to see the good in people – almost as if I can’t not see it, if that makes sense. Hence how I saw the good in Clarence, and saw the good in Toby. I see it, and they themselves show me that they’re sensitive, deep etc. Although Clarence ISNT – he’s misogynistic, sexist and just awful to women :'( I don’t know what it is about me, it’s like I am unable to believe that people can be anything other than genuine or honest. :'( :'( My mind just doesn’t understand how some people are liars, or why some people play games and hurt people etc.

    Regarding the parents stuff, I agree. I think that is why sometimes I feel so alone, despite being surrounded by housemates. I feel like I am living on my own isolated planet, where no one can see me and no one understands me.

    Lots of emotions and thoughts right now – confused, sad, confused, stupid, lonely, confused.

    Cat

    #223563
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    I hope you experience clarity soon, there is peace in clarity.

    “I don’t know what it is about me, it’s like I am unable to believe that people can be anything other than genuine or honest”- maybe it is so because you so desperately need people to be genuine and honest, so you make believe they are.

    Just like you needed your parents to be genuine and honest with you, with each other, that would  have made your life good, peaceful, as a child, not confusing but clear.

    anita

     

    #224269
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I hope this message finds you well.

    Things have calmed down a lot from the Toby situation. Things continue to change with me, my life, my values, attitudes, beliefs etc. Have been for the past two months, as think I am finding a sense of grounding in myself.

    Not sure if I mentioned, but when I was 20/21 I sought salvation at a multi-faith ashram Skanda Vale in Camarthen, Wales. You can stay there for free, as long as you volunteer for 3 hours a day – polishing brass/ gardening etc. Indian families go there from all across the world. There are 6 pujas a day, starting at 5 in the morning until around 8pm. It’s multi-faith, primarily Hindu and Buddhist, but there is a Christian service on Sunday.

    It was there that I met my friend I was telling you about before. British Indian woman.We both went alone, and it’s rare for single women to go there alone. We bonded well, and we would stay up every night drinking tea and talking about life together. She came to my graduation 🙂 🙂

    Anyway, at the end of each puja – they play ‘Om Namah Shivaya’ by Krishna Das. It’s 11 minutes and I love it. I have been playing it more recently, and I played it the other day, prayed and released on my worries, then I played guitar and started growing in confidence and loving it. It was the best time I’d played guitar because I allowed myself to enjoy it – it made a world of difference.

    I am starting to pray more, and I would like to learn Sanskrit.

    There’s more going on with me, but will tell you in future message/ discuss in future message.

    Also, I’ve been meaning to ask for ages now – I’ve noticed that when you write a message, you always Capitalise the first letter of everyone else’s name, but you don’t use capitals for your own name, it’s always ‘anita’ – is there any reason for this??

    Cat

    #224275
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    I capitalize the C in your name because this is how you type it, with a capital C. If a person presents herself or himself with all small letters, this is how I address the person, with all small leters. As to my name, it is easier to type all small letter, easier than pressing on the Shift key so to capitalize the A.

    Yes, I remember the multi faith ashram you told me about. I even googled it at the time. It is good that you found comfort there and that you still do, in the friend you made there and the music and practices.

    I am looking forward to read more from you and glad you are doing well!

    anita

    #225809
    Cat
    Participant

    Dear Anita. Hope this message finds u fast. I’m writing this on my phone. My house was burgled yesterday. I got a call at end of my shift from housemate crying. I got a taxi home ASAP. Burgers had come in daytime through front window. Stole my chrome book and camera. Stole 4 grand worth of equipment from my housemate room. We are all shook up. 2 of my housemates have gone away on hols. Cas who’s stuff was stolen most is staying at bfs cus she doesn’t want to b here right now. I’m home alone. Spent day processing n catching up on sleep. About to have a bath. Not sure if I should stay in or go out. Cat

    #225837
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Cat:

    My goodness! I was away from the computer shortly before you posted the recent message. I do hope you are okay. Burglarized on Friday then, came in during the day through the front window. I wonder if anyone saw them going in, it being during the day and Bristol being a busy city, an unlikely time to burglarize, I would think, unless your apartment building/ where you live is hidden from general view.

    I feel sad that you no longer have your camera and chrome book. Please let me know how you are doing now, what is going on…

    anita

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