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August 1, 2019 at 8:05 am #306043Cali ChicaParticipant
Dear Anita,
Moderation.
And you do believe with practice I can achieve that, interesting. This morning I felt this sense that the “ups and downs” are useless and circuitous. That I convince myself that it is useful because I am finally feeling and not as numb.
I know there is no answer, but do you personally think that in this I am actually activating past trauma and processing? is there “use” in any of this feeling/distress?
August 1, 2019 at 8:11 am #306047AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I didn’t understand your second paragraph, can you reword it, explain what you mean?
anita
August 1, 2019 at 8:15 am #306049Cali ChicaParticipantokay,
so I feel innately there is USE in what I am going through. In general. So lets take this past month. July – fourth of July – the horrific wife, how I felt after. London, the horrific cousin, my breakdown after. And current.
I feel that I am going through things, learning, and processing. It truly feels this way.
Yet on the outside its cyclical – up and down – up and down. “fine” then lashing at my husband, a little better – then “lashing
So Anita, according to you (and I am sorry if it is a pressured question at all) – according to you – do you see that any of these ups and downs have healing value – or is it just meaningless distress?
August 1, 2019 at 8:22 am #306051AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
It is both, healing and meaningless distress: your brain is set in certain habitual dynamics which existed when you first posted here, the lashing out at your then fiancé, for one. That was a meaningless distress, not healing and it still is. But in addition to that meaningless distress you are also healing.
Recently I wrote to you that the intellectual part of the healing was easy, a walk in the park compared to the part of the healing that is required now: the ongoing practice of mindfulness, basically, every step of the way, every day.
I think you are alarmed at this point, worried that you are not doing well. This is why you are thinking about psych meds. You are overwhelmed, are you?
anita
August 1, 2019 at 8:26 am #306053Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
Yes. I am.
I also am overwhelmed at the pattern at lashing out at my husband and am starting to feel it is “out of my control.” Of course the educated individual in myself with a strong head knows that is BS. Just like when a patient tells me they are destined to be obese it is out of their control, I say – no you can do it! And motivate them.
I know it is different, but intellectually I know exactly what you say the mindfulness and the practice.
But – the innate self feels overwhelmed and cyclical. I don’t actually feel the medications will change much as I do not believe they will “keep me from lashing out.” I do believe there is a time and place for them, and I am not sure if this part of the journey really is for that..
I do need to find a quality psychotherapist which I have been working on today and yesterday. I also look forward to your notes.
So at this point, I worry for my husband – having this pattern of using him as a punching bag. Over and over and over. He is sick and tired. I am sick and tired.
August 1, 2019 at 8:28 am #306055Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
In short it feels cyclic – and at this point – it is like what the heck is going to happen? This is my pattern.
And my poor husband frankly can not take any more lashing out, he is at the brink himself…
August 1, 2019 at 8:44 am #306059AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
It is clear to me that at this point you need to show your husband that you are very serious about no longer lashing out at him by doing something different, something you didn’t do before, be it taking mood stabilizers and/ or attending psychotherapy. Your Word and intent are not good enough in this regard.
I just took out my folders, I will type “NOTES” every time I copy from my notes. Everything that follows NOTES is writings that were given to me by my therapist 2011-2013, as handouts or as recordings (none of it is my writings or comments). I have the notes on paper, so the copying is reading and typing. I will start with a poem that meant so much to me, you can find it online, but I will type it here for you just as it appears in my notes (it is all about the practice of Mindfulness). Feel free to respond to any and all.
NOTES: Hokusai says (by Roger Keyes)
Hokusai says Look carefully
He says pay attention, notice.
He says keep looking, stay curious.
He says there is no end to seeing.
He says Look Forward to getting old.
He says keep changing,
you just get more who you really are.
He says get stuck, accept it, repeat yourself
as long as it’s interesting.
He says keep doing what you love.
He says keep praying.
He says every one of us is a child,
every one of us is ancient,
every one of us has a body,
He says every one of us is frightened.
He says every one of us has to find a way to live with fear.
He says everything is alive-
shells, buildings, people, fish, mountains, trees,
Wood is alive.
Water is alive.
Everything has its own life.
Everything lives inside us.
He says live with the world inside you.
He says it doesn’t matter if you draw, or write books.
It doesn’t matter if you saw wood, or catch fish.
It doesn’t matter if you sit at home
and stare at the ants on the verandah or the shadows of the trees
and grasses in your garden.
It matters that you care.
It matters that you feel.
It matters that you notice.
It matters that life lives through you.
Contentment is life living through you.
Joy is life living through you.
Satisfaction and strength
are life living through you.
peace is life living through you.
He says don’t be afraid.
Don’t be afraid.
Look, feel, let life take you by the hand.
Let life live through you.
August 1, 2019 at 9:30 am #306073AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica;
The following is the “Treatment Plan” A (I will refer to my former therapist as A, from now on) handed to me March 2011 after a few sessions, (first was free and a few hours long). I think it is a good idea for you to see what a good therapist does, how scientifically he went about therapy. I will not type all in the treatment plan. NOTES:
Treatment Plan
Client: Anita..
Diagnosis:
Axis 1…
Axis 2…
Long-Term Goals
1. Develop and use coping skills to deal with mood swings.
2. Develop the ability to control impulsive behavior.
3. Replace “black and white” thinking with the ability to tolerate ambiguity and complexity in people and issues.
4. Develop and use anger management skills.
5. Learn and use better interpersonal skills.
6. Stop self-damaging behaviors..
Strategies
– Determine what situations trigger anger, fear, suspicion, depression, anxiety, etc.
– Identify the dysfunctional or negative thinking behind the negative feelings, and challenge/ replace them with more realistic and healthy thoughts.
– Understand the connection between what happened in the past, and what is happening now when emotions become intense.
– Build motivation to stop self-defeating, impulsive behaviors.
– Replace destructive (to self or others), impulsive habits w/ healthy coping methods
– Teach assertiveness in communication
– Identify ways to find fulfillment and satisfaction
– See qualified physician to evaluate if medications are advisable.
What the Work Will Look Like
– Committing to ending suicidal threats, replaced with other ways of solving problem ad dealing with intense negative emotions.
– Journaling and Thought Records to track what’s behind the negative feelings in the moment.
– Mood logs, examining evidence, role playing.
– Discuss the past and how it seems to invade the present.
– Look at benefits and costs of behaviors you’ve used to protect yourself from intense bad feelings.
– Learn to monitor and recognize when these feelings arise, and use distraction techniques early in the experience (delaying reactions, relaxation, breathing, exercise,…)
– Learn new ways to talk, act, and think when emotions (especially suspicion or anger) becomes intense.
– Learn and use communication skills to deal with those emotions (speaking and written exercises w/ (husband), in session and at home)
– Experiment with activities that might be fun, relaxing and personally meaningful
– Get additional support via phone and additional meetings
August 1, 2019 at 10:08 am #306079AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I think the following is from April 2011, A’s handout for me, his words, NOTES:
1. I’d like to outline our treatment plan going forward, get your feedback and see how you might want to change it and how we will proceed.
2. The anxiety and depression you feel, as well as the anger you feel, can all be treated successfully. But it’s important that we work from a good diagnosis.
3. I don’t think this is bipolar disorder. In fact, I think you’ve been voicing that as well, though ultimately I’d like a physician to make an assessment…
4. I believe that how you feel, think, and behave have largely to do with the way you were abused as a child. Your mother left you with a legacy of pain, fear, and emptiness that can seem impossible to overcome. The painful legacy she left matches the depth of the abuse.
5. Yes Anita, I truly believe that this legacy of pain can be overcome (In fact, I believe you began making steps toward this before we even met.)
6. It is sadly all too common that people who grow up with the suffering your experienced learn that it is too risky to trust- to trust even someone you love. And that when love does appear, it must be verified again and again. Does this seem familiar?
7. It’s understandable that, with the abuse you were dealt, you might find it hard to believe that you are worthy of love, or that you may not always feel trust for those who say they love you. Again, your very difficult childhood comes to mind.
8. getting better, feeling better, having better relationships are all possible. But we must be honest: the work that needs to happen is significant. The effort that is needed to help you tolerate and alter the pain, and change the angry or compulsive behaviors takes time and practice. We can go as fast or as slow as you need, but it will not be easy or comfortable some of the time.
9. What makes the work hard is that to survive the abuse you’ve been through you have had to develop survival habits, almost like skills, that assured you would live through the trauma.
10. Now you must unlearn those habits and try new skills. Can you see how this might feel risky? Here are some of the things you must unlearn…
11. For example, you learned to disassociate- to separate yourself from the pain you were going through. That was the only way to bear the pain.. to separate your body and mind from it.
11a. In therapy you will learn skills to regulate your emotions, to keep them from becoming too intense, and even to tolerate them. You will learn/ know that these intense feelings will pass, and to focus on changing that thoughts that might be making the pain worse.
12. You also learned deep skepticism and distrust of people who say they love you. After all, who loves a child more than its mother? Yet what kind of love did/ could your mother show? So love itself might seem like a dangerous idea to you..
12a. In therapy, you will learn to be in loving relationships, to develop trust and communicate assertively. Your needs are important, how to get them met is a skill set we can all learn more of, and maybe you weren’t given a chance to learn that well.
14. Finally, to survive, you had to decide that whatever “felt wrong” in the present might be a replay of what happened in the past. Even if the present situation is very different than the past.
14a, in therapy, you’ll learn skills to make wiser decisions about what is happening, balancing your emotions with your intelligence and your instinct.
15. Are you willing, even a part of you, to learn some new skills to replace the ones above? Are you interested in a new way to see the world?
August 1, 2019 at 10:24 am #306083AnonymousGuestHere is a “Daily Mood Log”- my daily homework was to fill those in, repeatedly (this is a Cognitive Behavioral Therapy tool):
DAILY MOOD LOG
Situation or Event:______________________________–
Emotions
Sad, blue, depressed…
Anxious, worried, panicky…
Guilty, remorseful…
(and so on, on each line you fill in “Negative Thoughts” and “Distortions” (exs., all or nothing thinking, mental filter, Jumping to conclusions, Self blame and other blame)” and “Positive Thoughts” % Before” “% After” regarding how you feel before correcting the thought and after, as well as percentage of believing in the negative thought before and after correcting it.
More: I was introduced already in April 2011 to Dialectical Behavior Therapy concepts such as “emotional regulation”, “reality testing” (when angry, I made my anger the external reality, testing it is thinking what is really going on), “distress tolerance” which is part of emotional regulation.
I was also introduced to Mindfulness concepts such as “Radical Acceptance”.
August 1, 2019 at 11:04 am #306089Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
Incredible. Thank you immensely for typing all of this out. I want to reply in segments.
I too enjoyed this poem, enjoyed in the sense that it is simple and makes sense, not overly flowery or abstract.
It states:
Contentment is life living through you.
Joy is life living through you.
Satisfaction and strength
are life living through you.
peace is life living through you.
And I think, I know, I have none of those. Contentment – no. Joy – no. Satisfaction -no. Peace -definitely no.
I do not have life living through me. Nope. In fact I do not feel I am living. I feel I am circling, but not living. Wow, what a shame. Surely is.
August 1, 2019 at 11:39 am #306093Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
He went about it in an incredibly scientific way. This approach really resonates with me being a physician and from an evidence scientific organized background. I feel very and happy and fortunate for you that you found someone like this in your life. I am very glad for you. I thought in my head, I wonder if this person takes skype clients across the country! I would surely be happy to pay him paypal fees for this quality work! Or hopefully I will find someone excellent as well. Your typing of these notes made me feel motivated to explore some. I am working on finding a therapist of my own, but in the meantime I do love that you shared all of this, it is so very helpful and important. I want to do the following, as the good student that I am – it will be helpful. I will add comments as they come to me naturally/authentically as seen in the following
Treatment Plan
Client: CC
Diagnosis:
Long-Term Goals
1. Develop and use coping skills to deal with mood swings.
Mood swings. I never thought myself to be “moody” but what a difference between moody and mood swings. Clearly I have erratic mood swings. One day able to work on my relationship and go to Central Park and be mindful with my husband, the next angry at 5 AM screaming at him about an automatic dog feeder. yes, I have mood skills. No, I do not have coping skills to deal with these mood swings.
2. Develop the ability to control impulsive behavior.
Oh yes! In fact we just touched on this. My husband and I spoke about my impulsivity just last week right. Just because I am “good at what I do” and things have worked out decently thus far does NOT mean I have any appropriate coping skills.. The instant need to text back, to react, to say without thinking. Impulsive. I can not remember a time I was not like this, this is a huge part of my identity even. Sure it has made me a hyper-communicator. But it has been very terrible (for myself) in conflicts. Replying before taking the time to often protect myself! Often acting out of emotions of rage, anger, guilt, defiance.. Feeling that whatever I am feeling right now must be real and right since I am feeling it so strong. Always believing my emotions. Feeling they have a voice – a true one – that speaks on my behalf.
3. Replace “black and white” thinking with the ability to tolerate ambiguity and complexity in people and issues.
Once again spot on! How useful this is, and the perfect timing. That’s the beauty of our interactions Anita…I have incredible incredible difficulty with ambiguity. It makes me feel physically uncomfortable. I have always done HORRIBLE with concepts of “we shall see” “we will figure it out” “let’s see what happens””maybe it will work out” “we can figure it out when the time comes” etc
This sort of thing drives me crazy. Often they are filler words that people say to circumvent commitment or answering. This is maddening to me. But other timess they are not – sometimes you truly do need to see things through – and “wait it out..” Not being impulsive and making a decision based on the first thought or feeling – saying now or never! Which goes to the concept of above impulsivity and rush. It always feels like there is a rush for a conclusion or answer. LLike a deadline….what are you going to do about that situation? huh? Tell me now – now now now – subconscious pressure to have the decision now! Black and white. No waiting it out, no timme to sink in, no time to assess, no time to “sleep on it”
4. Develop and use anger management skills.
Well yes, they must be developed.. I know all of the ones in my head that we should do. stop and halt before speaking etc. They are random words in my head, never executed, and little faith that I am capable of sticking to them..
5. Learn and use better interpersonal skills.
This one is interesting and important. See being that I am engaging ‘social butterfly” I was tricked into believing I have excellent interpersonal skills. Yes, I do – when it comes to certain things. But in this realm I am seeking SELF help. And these “skills” are often detrimental to, yes, ME. They often have benefited the other party, and continue to, but hurt me – and as a result my husband as well. The inner circle aspect is key here.
6. Stop self-damaging behaviors..
Strategies
– Determine what situations trigger anger, fear, suspicion, depression, anxiety, etc.
I know this list is for ongoing work, and so I don’t expect myself to “conquer” any of this now, as it is for ongoing treatment/healing therapy. Yet, I do want to write about things that come up at this moment. A major trigger of mine has been other people, and the pressure to attend to others. I know this is deep rooted in the role that I had to be for my mother, constant attending to – drop everything and go. I think of it as the extreme scenario. Miss Congeniality always speaks at events and mentors young women, she is great at it. As a result after all those years, she neglected what she herself needs to rejuvenate, she is so great at autopilot. She now has grown resentful and angry and snaps at even the smallest question going her way. Hey miss C, do you have a minute to tell us about your favorite hobby. She feels disgruntled – no roar! Can’t you just leave me alone! Constantly badgering me. Miss Congeniality does not want to be miss C anymore, she wants to take off the tiara and sleep and rest. She wants to not have that guilt of not being, well, congenial. She feels it may have been better off if she never received that title in the first place, to take on that role – now it is apart of who she is, it is hard to simply undo.
– Identify the dysfunctional or negative thinking behind the negative feelings, and challenge/ replace them with more realistic and healthy thoughts.
We have spoken on that, and the concepts of cognitive distortion – a long ways to go with that. It is often hard to remember in reality that the negative thinking is “dysfunctional” and not reality. It is innate for myself to think the negative thinking is true and real and telling me something honest.
– Understand the connection between what happened in the past, and what is happening now when emotions become intense.
Wow, so very important. This is some next level stuff. It will take true high level mindfulness. I am far from there at present.
– Build motivation to stop self-defeating, impulsive behaviors.
Yes
– Replace destructive (to self or others), impulsive habits w/ healthy coping methods
Yes
– Teach assertiveness in communication
For me perhaps teach, less emotionally fueled communication, and keep emotional distance whenever necessary
– Identify ways to find fulfillment and satisfaction
Yes – oh yes. How incredibly stated.
– See qualified physician to evaluate if medications are advisable.
Yes
What the Work Will Look Like
– Discuss the past and how it seems to invade the present.
I like that word invade. It makes sense to me visually. The sticky goopy past invading into now, sticky and yucky.
– Look at benefits and costs of behaviors you’ve used to protect yourself from intense bad feelings.
Wow to actually look at costs of my behaviors. How important for me. I run and run and continue. I seldom look back and re-evaluate. It’s like the kids who finished the test and went back over every single answer to ensure they did it right. Versus me, do it once with focus and confidence and stand up and hand it in, knowing I did fine.
Well, that isn’t working now. Looking back and evaluating cost/benefit is essential. I can’t continue to rush and drive through life, knocking over cones and not look back and say – what was my driving habit like that made me knock it over? Versus, oh too bad, I’ll be sure not to do that next time.
– Learn to monitor and recognize when these feelings arise, and use distraction techniques early in the experience (delaying reactions, relaxation, breathing, exercise,…)
Yes, as above I have little faith I can continue this sort of thing. I see it as someone who is all giddy about new practices as a new years resolution, but by Feb they go back to their old ways. That’s how I see myself when it comes to these Healthy techniques.
– Learn new ways to talk, act, and think when emotions (especially suspicion or anger) becomes intense.
Interesting, I read above in the poem how you can not have fear. In fact the poem says “Don’t be Afraid, Let life take you by hand.” This is very gripping. I see that I am afraid of losing my “identity.” This identity which was mostly placed by my mother. Oh amazing fun loving gregarious CC, everyone loves CC. Perhaps deep down I fear that if I change the way I am, I will turn into someone: sad, mean, boring, introverted.. Perhaps I worry that the innate self of who I am has “worked” so if I change myself – I will turn into someone who “doesn’t work” if that makes sense. (clearly a delusion)
August 1, 2019 at 11:40 am #306095AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I will now focus on interpersonal relationship skills. Here is a worksheet used in couple therapy, it is called “I WANT- THEY WANT’ ASSESSMENT”- you get one, husband gets one, the two of you fill it in individually/ privately. It consists of four columns. First: “I want & need”, what it is that I want and need in the relationship. Second: “Outcome”/ How well my need is met. Third: what do I think that husband wants and needs from the relationship. Fourth: do I think that he gets his needs and wants met.
After filling these in individually, privately, the two handouts are compared by the two of you (the therapist is there, facilitating this, but I suppose you can do this without a therapist)
Here is a note I wrote on a paper following this exercise (July 2011), it seems to be very relevant to you: “By applying learned and yet to be learned interpersonal skills and other skills, I can detect anger when it starts, communicate it in a non threatening way, avoid escalation into aggressive/ aversive behavior, and in so doing allow (husband) the secure environment he needs to be and become himself”.
Here is a summary I made of a handout A gave me titled “Basic Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills”, it is a copy of a chapter 8 of some book. My summary (July 2011): “The most necessary and important interpersonal skill is assertiveness, which is the ability to 1) Ask for what I want. 2) Say no. 3) Negotiate conflict without damaging the relationship.
Mindful Attention: Relationships require attention. Noticing your own feelings can help you figure out what needs to change in the relationship before you blow up or run away… When you pay attention, you notice trouble coming- before it overwhelms you, & also gain time to ask clarifying questions that can help you correct misperceptions. You can ask: How are you feeling? How are things between us? I noticed ____, is that accurate?
Passive versus Aggressive Behavior: Long term, passivity is the royal road to interpersonal disaster. When you give in to others & abandon your own needs, it creates frustration & resentment that builds inside of you. Eventually, the relationship becomes so painful that you blow up, collapse into depression, or run away. In comparison, aggressive behaviors also destroy relationships because they push people away.
I Want- They Want Ratio: Every relationship consists of two people trying to get what they need. For relationships to succeed you must be able to do the following: know and say what you desire, Notice or find out what the other person desires, Negotiate & compromise so you can get at least some of what you want, Give what you can of what the other person wants.
Key Interpersonal Skills:
1) Knowing what you want.
2) Asking for what you want in a way that protects the relationship: put your needs into words that are clear, not attacking, and ask for specific behavioral change.
3) Negotiate conflicting wants: start with a clear commitment that there won’t be wines or losers; be willing to compromise so that each person gets some of what he or she wants.
4) Getting information: find out what the other person needs, fears, hopes for, & so on. Don’t falsely assume that you know what the other person wants; avoid projecting your own fears, need & feelings on the other person.
5) Say NO in an assertive style that validates the other person’s needs & desires while setting firm boundaries around what you will or won’t do.
6) Act in your relationships according to what you value.
Exercise: Identify your interpersonal values:
List a behavior that diminish self respect and emotionally damages you or another person…
My values of how people should be treated…
Here is a handout called “Goals and priorities in interpersonal situations”- “Use this sheet to figure out your goals and priorities in any situation that creates a problem for you such as ones where 1) your rights and wishes are not being respected 2) You want someone to do or change something r give you something 3) you want or need to say no or resist pressure to do something 4) you want to get your position or point of view taken seriously and 5) there is conflict with another person…
Prompting Event: .. who did what to whom? What led up to what? What is it about the situation that is a problem for me?
My WANTS and DESIRES in this situation; OBJECTIVES: what specific results do I want? What changes do I want the person to make?
RELATIONSHIP: How do I want the other person to feel about me after the interaction?
SELF RESPECT: How do I want to feel about myself after the interaction?…”
You fill one form per situation.
* Here is some work on Core Beliefs I did September 2011 my writing: “Negative, False, Unrealistic Core Beliefs: 1) Intimacy is bad, dangerous thing and should be avoided. Attachment & empathy cause pain and fear. Detachment and indifference will prevent pain and will protect me”.. 6) Other people are the enemy: they will reject me and hurt me. Can’t trust anybody. Nobody wants me for me, only for what I can do for them, or what they can get out of me.”
I am done with copying notes and such for today.
anita
August 1, 2019 at 11:41 am #306097AnonymousGuest* after posting the above I noticed you posted too, will read and reply soon
anita
August 1, 2019 at 12:19 pm #306099AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
So much material. When I copied notes regarding interpersonal skills, an amazingly similar thought about you occurred to me, similar to what you expressed here: “being that I am engaging ‘social butterfly’ I was tricked into believing I have excellent interpersonal skills. Yes, I do- when it comes to certain things”, it occurred to me how lacking your interpersonal skills are in the context of your marriage.
It also occurred to me as I typed the notes, how not assertive you are with people, this is why you lash out. I figure a lot of your social butterfly activities are not what you really want to do. So you do and do and then explode.
I am exhausted reading some of my many, many notes, folders and folders. Most after therapy. Regarding my therapist, I remember that I asked him about online therapy while being in a different state than California and he said he is not permitted to do that, except if I lived in CA and went on vacation to another state of country. Which happened, I was out of the country and continued online therapy with him (free of charge). But since I reside in another state, he can’t be my online/ phone therapist.
anita
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