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This topic contains 1,006 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  anita 2 months ago.

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  • #333909

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    You do read clear and grounded but the moment your sister has a crisis and you react like before, all that clarity is out the window and you will be back to where you were before. No use separating from the origin/ primary source of sickness (your parents), only to allow a secondary source of sickness (your sister) to do the same to you.

    “We are all worthy of some peace” not at the expense of another. Protect yourself and your inner circle.

    anita

    #333913

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,
    The origin yes. And there’s not just one origin.

    I don’t feel guilty about separating from yet another origin of sickness. Not at all. I feel relief.

    I see clearly how she has robbed me and my husband of peace and I vow to never let that happen again.
    The plan will be set in place once the relocation decision is made. As My mind is occupied by that     but I am grateful for the ability to have this month without her energy. It has been very nice indeed to not have her involved in this intimate inner circle decision making time. It’s a sign of how things could be. How things should be. Just Mt husband and I and our life. No tainting from.others.

    #333923

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cai Chica:

    No tainting your life by others, not letting others taint your life, not a mother, not a father, not a sister, not anyone. There is no title (mother, sister, friend, whatever) that makes allowing a preventable tainting of one’s life anything other than… a chosen stupidity of some terrible sort.

    anita

    #334506

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    It is official! We are moving to California!!

    #334510

    anita
    Participant

    Congratulations Cali Chica and Husband !!!

    I can’t believe it, a decision has been made, my first smile today, so glad! This means my gut feeling about this was always Cali for Cali Chica, it is in her screen name!

    Yesterday, because it was so very slow here I went back and re-read your posts from 2016 to Jan 2018 and came up with (to me) amazing new understanding, or deeper understanding than before: first part is about the SCC Role, second (not completely developed yet) about your sister and you. If you want I will be glad to put it together and submit to you I two posts.

    But my goodness, you are really moving, yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    anita

    #334512

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Thank you Anita!!! Interesting the gut feeling right! Cali Chica indeed!

    I would love for you to put together that in some posts. It will be great to read while I mentally prepare for the move and all that goes with change and new beginnings!

    #334514

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    Better Understanding makes truly New Beginnings possible, otherwise the old ends up spoiling the new, as it happened in Manhattan. Do not let anyone spoil California for you!!! Therefore, I will submit these posts in the next hour or so.

    anita

    #334528

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    1. January 2018 you wrote: “my baseline has always been suffering and anxiety”, and “It almost feels like excavating the inner deep fossil roots of the  ongoing chronic anxiety and patterns. Each Uncovering comes with its own emotional journey”- in this post my aim is to uncover more of these deep fossils roots so to (try and) help you further lessen that chronic anxiety and suffering. I hope that sooner than later, your experience of chronic anxiety will be a thing of the past.

    2. Your mother was very dishonest with you (and with others in her life). I know that you are not aware of the extent of her dishonesty. It is very, very difficult for a child of any age to fully understand something as difficult as this and it is impossible to go back in time and re-hear all that she said and did.

    Here is an example: you believed your whole life that your mother’s siblings treated her badly. Nov 2016: “her own siblings (all she had) shunned, ridiculed, and harassed her”. Jan 2018 you wrote: “My entire young childhood I recall feeling this and seeing with my own eyes My aunts and uncles leaving us out, Insulting us etc. When I was old enough to absorb it on my own I felt so bad that people would treat my parents this way”. But in Jan 2017 you shared about a recent event regarding your mother: “she then proceeded to say how she’s told all my aunts and uncles how horrible I’ve become and abandoned her own parents.. all aunts and uncles are on their side and are saying ‘wow what an ungrateful daughter'”- she told the same people who allegedly betrayed her about how you betrayed her, then using their disapproval of you as proof that indeed you are a bad person.

    What I am saying is the mistreatment you observed on the part of your aunts and uncles against your mother/ family may very well have been <i>a two sided mistreatment</i>, back and forth. You only saw and remembered one side of it.

    Nov 2016, you wrote: “I always recall feeling, wow how sad my mom’s life was.. why did  people do this to her?”- when she was a child, she was mistreat. Almost all of the mistreatment she complained to you about, I believe, was a lie: either a partial truth kind of lie (as in giving you only the information that supports her claim) or a complete lie.

    Your mother lied to you many times, including a few years ago, suggesting that your father who  has a heart condition was having severe chest pain. You can’t tell now, looking back, how many times she lied to you in a day or in a week, in a year, and in every one of the three decades you heard her say things.

    3. You wrote Jan 2018 regarding the thought of ending contact with her: “my mother made it her whole life that she ‘needs my help'”, “her focus then was me.. continued to be in adulthood”, that “cutting contact from her (will) lead to more damage to her”, that the idea of losing you will be “crippling to her”, that when she feared losing you to your in laws, “she was besides herself”, and you predicted that if you  do cut contact with her, “she would likely get our whole extended family involved, maybe even end up hospitalized due to deep despair, hysteria, and psychosis related to the idea of ‘losing me'”-

    -none of that was true. You were not her focus (it was the other way around, she was your focus). She didn’t see you as capable of helping her (beyond making a call to a friend so  to get the attention of that girl’s parents, or venting to you so to get her relief and such things), she didn’t see you as Super and didn’t treat you as a Super. When at 22 you had your breakdown (“feeling lost overwhelmed, scattered, hopeless, sad”), their response was: “we don’t know what to tell you, ever since you were young you’ve always had a problem. You came  out of the womb crying and you continue still. We just don’t know what to do with you. This is too much you’re an adult now” – this is not how parents talk to a daughter they believe to be Super; this is not Super Treatment.

    You heard and remembered hearing what your mother/ parents (“they morphed into one”, you wrote Nov 16) said to you and about you that fit the Super Cali Chica Role,

    and closed your eyes/ears, or forgot what she said and did that didn’t fit the Super role.

    You wrote regarding the breakdown of a decade earlier:  “I had totally forgot this until 2 weeks ago, something on TV reminded me”.

    Regarding that breakdown, you wrote: “I usually went to my friends for the typical ups and downs- but I remember it was so bad I instantly called my parents”- it happened before that you reached out to them and they treated you as they did in this example (not Super), this is why you learned to reach out to friends and not to them. You reached out to them because you were feeling especially bad. You were desperate.

    If your parents viewed you as Super, they would have treated you like Super, they would be ecstatic to be there for your in your ups and downs, to encourage and nourish their Super child. They wouldn’t have repeatedly kicked their super child when she was down (“I told my husband and he was horrified… to kick you when you’re down like that. Wow”)

    Right after you told the breakdown story, in the same post, you wrote: “because my mom considers me this princess golden child.. she always had an expectation that I would marry the ‘best’ guy”-

    – you didn’t compute her behavior of kicking you when you were down, or her endless harassing of you around your wedding, to mean that she didn’t consider you a princess/ a golden child.

    One shows respect to a princess/ golden child, not disrespect and abuse!

    In summary: you are a very intelligent woman and you were a very intelligent child, but any child needs to be valued, it is a fundamental need. So what the child does is close her eyes best she can to any and all evidence that she is not valued, and focus and magnify all evidence that she is valued. So your mother said things to indicate that she valued you, you remember her words; she applauded you and seemed happy and proud of you when you performed in a wedding, you remember that behavior. A child cannot afford to see the whole picture when the whole picture is one that shows the  child is not valued.

    What happens though is that the picture is not a pretty picture, the child knows there is something very wrong. A significant denial of reality cannot be perfectly done, so the child is anxious.

    Fast forward, you are now in your fourth decade, did a lot of work, lots of insight, you are in a healthy, solid relationship, you can now endure seeing the whole picture. Seeing the whole picture as it was, will reduce that chronic anxiety that accompanied that imperfect denial.

    Reality: your mother/ parents didn’t value you as Super. I know it because their behavior with you, what I mentioned here, and much more (various other examples come to mind) clearly show a lack of value.

    Look at all your predictions regarding what will happen to your mother if she lost contact with you- none of them came true, see, you were never this important to her! All she did when you ended contact with her was to make phone calls to your sister (and maybe to a few other people), that is all, and as far as I know, she continued traveling, Europe was one destination last summer, if I remember correctly.

    No psychosis, no being institutionalized, no involving the whole family, nothing that took more effort than making phone calls.

    This is what I believe to be reality. Let me know if you disagree with any part of it. The purpose of this is to deflate your false sense of value and give up the SCC Role, and instead see your value in a different way, a way that will dissolve your chronic anxiety and increase your energy and ability to focus on what will serve you well, instead of on what is a disservice for you.

    I will wait for your reply before I work on the second part.

    anita

     

    #334540

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I read the above post throughly. I actually would like to read both posts before replying if that would be okay with you. If so I will wait to read the second portion. Thanks and take your time

    #334568

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cai Chica:

    1. Jan 2018 when you were not considering ending contact with your parents, you wrote: “Since the wedding, in September, I have had a tremendously larger amount of distance from my parents. I have only seen them twice since then, and the talks we have- have been more superficial.. I just see this as some much needed space, breathing room, and focus away from them. I guess deep down inside I must feel that if it can be continued in this current way (no constant phone calls, accusations.. then I can SURVIVE. I am not foolish and I do know that this is just temporary- like waiting for the other shoe to drop. It will only a mater of time until there is another catastrophe again, and they’re back at the aggressive behavior (because that is who they are, this distance is just a phase- it is not indicative of anything)… Perhaps it is just hopeful to wish that this level of ‘distance’ can be maintained so that I man at least have some level of ‘self-healing.’ and that even if it is not full, it is better than the immense torture that was last year. I have noticed an ability to see things clearer since the wedding”-

    – change the pronouns they to she (parents to sister), remove the word wedding, adjust the timeline to fit the distance in communication frequency you now have from your sister (following the frequent daily contact you had with her).. and the above quote is true in the context of your sister as it was in the context of your parents. A temporary distance is nice and will make it possible for you to see things clearer, but the fog will be back only too soon with the next catastrophe/ next renewal of communication frequency, and the torture re-experienced. When that happens, the “some level of ‘self healing'” – will be gone and you will be worse off than when you started because of added  disappointment, discouragement and hopelessness.

    2. In your first Self Trust thread, Jan 2018, your sister participated there, communicating with me and with you, and so I feel comfortable to quote her words from there.

    * “I need to live my own life. And sometimes.. my sister does not.. let me just live. Her response to this will be- well you need help, you have severe problems etc. She will say, ‘well I can’t just sit here when in the past this, this, and this has happened’.. she consistently gives me advice or tells me about my flaws.. I am not my mother. I am smart, strong, and kind. I will be ok.. It is hard for my sister to let people just breathe”-

    – first, she made the request, give her what she asked for: let her breathe, let her live her life, do “just sit” there and let her “just live”.

    Do withdraw your Super CC role completely from any and all interactions with her, make a 100% removal of that role.

    How did your sister refer to that role? “crazy”: “When my sister is within contact of my mother, she regresses and essentially becomes ‘crazy’ again”.

    And I agree, SCC is crazy, could stand for Super Crazy Chica.

    “When my sister regresses she also hurts me.. let me just live”- let her just live, please.

    All you have to do to remove Your Crazy is remove that SCC Role from your behavior with her and with anyone else. But what does she need to do to remove Her Crazy?

    Let’s look at how you responded to these quotes I just gave, back in Jan 2019: “I agree completely with my sister’s recollection of my regressing… what about me and my relationship with my mother brings out these abusive qualities in me to whoever it may be, sister, husband. And how can I change that… like my sister said I will have to practice not regressing back into those behaviors. For myself and of course for my loved ones”.

    Her next post following the above was: “There it is. That word- micromanage. I did not realize this is what my sister has been doing… sorry for butting in to your thread sister”-
    – it was me who introduced the verb micromanage and that was what she responded to. Focusing on a new word to complain about how you are hurting her. She completely ignored the valuable things you wrote about, the insight you expressed and your intent to correct your behavior. She focused on a new word so to express what you do wrong and ignored completely all that you wrote about doing right.

    Your next post following hers: “you did not butt into my thread! You gave me light! .. I now see that I micromanage as a form of control, and anxiety”- more insight, more expressed intent to correct your behavior, and  how gracious of you, to refer to her input as light. You referred to her criticism of you as light and you expressed understanding and intent to correct your behavior.

    Problem/ her Crazy: she complains a whole lot about your behavior, some of it is understandable (the SCC Role) but I don’t remember ever reading from her about having done anything wrong to you, about her having to correct anything about her behavior. The finger of blame is pointing to you.

    What all this means is that you can correct your Crazy but she has no understanding and no intent to correct her Crazy. But not only that, in her mind, there is no Crazy. I will explain: she is well aware of how anxious she is and she is well aware that her behavior is puzzling and .. not normal, in many contexts, so she has the suspicion that she is crazy, but it is a repressed suspicion, none that she will confront and consider and try to correct.

    3. Fast forward, January 13, 2020, you wrote: “I continue to reach out to someone, my sister, with softness, and in turn I got bites. I got so many bites between my mother and her, I had no softness left.”-

    – she will keep blaming you even when you eradicate the SCC Role. After all, she keeps biting even when you do give her the distance she asked for (recently, the MIA initiative).

    She bites because this is what she does. No matter the circumstances, she’ll find something you will do wrong, or something that you did  not do exactly right or perfectly, or she will suspect something and she will bite you again.

    Just like when you reached out to her two years ago, called her Light and validated her, and she ignored it all and chose to use my input (the micromanaging word) against you– she will continue to do the same. What happens to anyone exposed to her behavior, is that you get understandably angry, your anger expressed somehow, and she uses that against you as well. So you can never win.

    Jan 2020: “My sister always says this thing: ‘well that’s on you, no one is asking for your help all the time.’ This would enrage me, I would think – yes yes you are!!! And seeing it now it is the ultimate slap in the face.  It is someone who is so unraveled and incapable of predictable stability that continues to bite the hand that feeds her.”-
    – here is where you are wrong: because of the SCC Role, you think that she wants your help, that she sees you as capable and therefore she needs your help, but what you don’t see is that like your mother, she is already helping herself to you in the ways that she feels the needs to help herself.

    I will explain: your mother needed you as an audience, so to act out to a captive audience. After you finally calmed her down and someone would come to visit, all her histrionics where back as she had new audience. What happened is that you didn’t help her the way you thought was helpful, and which she really needed (to calm down on an ongoing basis and stop the histrionics for good).  What happened is that she helped herself to you, had you as her audience for a while.

    Your sister is helping herself to you by pointing the finger of blame at you: your fault! You are hurting me! Here, you did it again! And again! And as you understandably get angry, she has new ammunition to use against you. She is helping herself to you.

    Jan 2020: “My sister and mother RELY on me for security and functionality… they are secretly jealous of that ability of mine. Neither would last half a second managing as much as I do… she NEEDS my SCC.. not only does she NEED it, she gets angry if it goes away for a mere few days!!”-
    – no, neither one of them, not your mother, not your sister wanted your functionality or help so that they can function better. This is your make-believe which gave you that sense of being valued as a child (which I talked about in the previous post). It is true that the two of them need to function better, but this is not what they want. They had a more immediate need which was to satisfy their impulsive need, which in the case of your sister, it is the need to blame you.

    Like you wrote this month: “It’s lies. And it’s hysteria and harassing”, exactly.

    anita

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  anita.
    #334574

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita, thank you for your posts! I will read throughly and reply back in a few hours when I am back home

    #334598

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Sorry for the delay. Complicated day but I’ll get into that later. Quite stressful. Anyway- back to us I assume you are away from the computer so we can continue this discussion tomorrow or whenever you are free.

    I am glad I read both back to back. Here is the thesis for me:

    no, neither one of them, not your mother, not your sister wanted your functionality or help so that they can function better. This is your make-believe which gave you that sense of being valued as a child (which I talked about in the previous post). It is true that the two of them need to function better, but this is not what they want. They had a more immediate need which was to satisfy their impulsive need, which in the case of your sister, it is the need to blame you.

    Your sister is helping herself to you by pointing the finger of blame at you: your fault! You are hurting me! Here, you did it again! And again! And as you understandably get angry, she has new ammunition to use against you. She is helping herself to you.

    So this is new news to me. You have explained this in regards to my mother in the past. The concept of her needing an audience. Not truly “needing” a solution. Makes total sense.  I can visualize it and see it clearly. Especially remembering my father or I talking her down, just for her to go into the same hysterics again moments later when an aunt walks through the door. This is pretty pivotal aspect of her personality disorder and BPD.

    The friend I used to have – Sarah – I recall episodes like this as well. A very twisted way of getting attention – but never ever being satisfied or happy.

    Now to my sister. I didn’t think of her the same. And I don’t mean to say that I want to lump everyone together. But I had thought she was on “the other side” – my side.

    The side that isn’t hysterical and crazy. Troubled – yes. But not that.

    Yet I see now that’s not true. I see that I when I placed my MIA note – she reached out practically saying “hey where is SCC” but it wasn’t for My help.

    Let’s say I replied and said I’ll come over and help or this or that she would have jumped to the opportunity. But if she found that I was stressed doing it she would have said: oh I never told you to do this.

    A key point of a dysfunctional (in emotional ways when it comes to my sister) adult.

    She does need help in ways my mother didn’t. Such as is helping her move into Manhattan and in so many different ways. Those are facts.

    But she also puts down and de-values SCC. I guess I thought of it like this – she is desperate and lonely in many ways – but also angry and denounces SCC. She in fact comes off as a victim lost puppy some days – but angry beast others. She is needy for love and attention and she does not have it in her life (from any true place unlike me with my spouse). But also does not know how to receive this appropriately or appreciate it.

    She is highly troubled and erratic and hysterical.

    Now – I want you to elaborate the aspect of “my sister is helping herself to me.” I understand it but would like to discuss further

     

    #334662

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I just finished putting together the following and it is a very long post. I put hours just in this one post. Please give it all the time it takes, be it however long before you post back to me.

    Part 1: I am copying and pasting your words, once again:

    1. November 10, 2016: “When I close my eyes I think of my mom as a damaged soul, a sad and abused.. fragile puppy… makes me feel soo soo bad for her”. Jan 2020: “I think of my sister as a wounded child”.

    2. February 3, 2018: “the thesis is that no matter what I do or don’t do, what I say or don’t say.. she will always be the same. She will continue to go up and down.. be happy, be miserable.. be ecstatic with glee- all of which has nothing at all to do with my actions…By accommodating her and giving into such things as contact and keeping in touch during vacation (or anything at all) I still feed the beast and allow it to be quelled at least momentarily (or so I think!). By thinking that- I essentially feel that I may have some power to prevent this beast from becoming a  monster. But this beast is by nature a monster! Whether you feed it or whether you let it starve whether you tranquilize it for a day or provoke it, it is all the same. The monster is a monster at the end of the day. Now and forever”.

    3. March 26, 2018: “I am away in California..  to look at some potential homes… I had not seen my sister since the wedding, in September, so I thought it would be nice if she joined us this weekend too… I was excited t see her.. fun like old times, fun sister silliness. But what happened next.. is kind of a blur… I start feeling like it is not good enough.. we must eat elsewhere. The pizza place was blah… out of nowhere like I can not control it I say out loud ‘wow isn’t this place depressing’… I felt overwhelmed and I felt burdened.. I start getting really upset and crying and feeling just overwhelmed, I start saying .. I can’t take it anymore between my mom and you I just feel so drained, I just don’t have anything left… I saw that my sister is a lot like my mother…I had told her that week away that I couldn’t speak to her. I needed space…The moment she came here I felt like I regressed and went backwards, kind of the way I do when I pick up the phone with my mom I automatically start feeling anxious and depressed… it was merely her presence.. she said to me ‘do you know how horrible it is to say to someone that just your presence makes me upset and uneasy’. She is right it is horrible. But I think it’s true… I become someone I don’t really like around my sister, someone on edge.. when my sister arrived I felt like that old uneasy ball of stress… if in the future she lived locally and we saw her more regularly I can see myself feeling extremely drained just like I did with my mother”.

    Part 2: I am copying and pasting what I posted to you on this thread, this month: “She doesn’t want help if the help offered her includes her re-evaluating her thinking and behavior. She will not consider that her thinking may be distorted or that her behavior may be dysfunctional… This is the hallmark of personality disorders… She and your mother, both exhibit severe personality disorders… Either one can learn a new passive aggressive strategy, or your sister may learn a new way to hide her intense and frequent anger, but neither one will change into an honest and trustworthy person… You have to put a complete stop to your SCC role with her.. all in vain… Let go of SCC, she is not and never will be super enough to fix a person with a severe personality disorder.. live far, far away from your sister. She lives on the East Coast, so the West Coast is as far as you can be away from her… don’t allow her to follow you!”

    Part 3: your last night post, and then my response to it today, Jan 23, 2020: you wrote, paraphrased, that you “see it clearly” that your mother needed an audience, not truly a solution to her problems, and that she was “never ever being satisfied or happy” no matter how much audience time she got, and no matter how much the audience tried to help her to solve the problems she complained about. But you don’t see your sister clearly. You thought of her as being on your side, not on your mother’s side. You thought of her being with you on one side and your mother- on the other side. You thought of your sister as troubled but not as “hysterical and crazy” like your mother was.

    You wrote that if you did try to help her recently with the roach problem, she would have “jumped to the opportunity”, but if you told her that you were stressed about helping her, she would have said: “oh I never told you to do this”. Then you wrote that she did need your help to “move into Manhattan and in so many different ways. Those are facts”. But she “puts down and de-values SCC… angry and denounces SCC.. a victim lost puppy some days- but angry beast others.. highly troubled and erratic and hysterical”. You then asked me to elaborate on what I meant by your sister is helping herself to you.

    My response: it is very difficult to separate everyone in this three people combo of your mother, yourself and your sister (I am not including your father because he and your mother “morphed into one”) because the three of you interacted for so long, starting when you and your sister were babies and infants, before you had words. It is difficult to see who is who, what is true to reality and what is not. So here, I will do my best to organize this mess based on my extensive communication with you and with your sister, your communication with her on your threads, and my study and re-study over time of these communications (going back and computing new information into old, seeing more in the old every time).

    *Because of the complexity of the topic, because even though I have a lot of information, I don’t have it all (even you don’t have all the information and definitely a lot of the information you have is not objective), and because even if I did have all the decades long information, no brain is capable of computing it all and producing a complete and perfect analysis— what follows is a simplification, but the principles, I believe, are true to reality:

    Each one of the three of you is a “damaged soul, a sad and abused.. fragile puppy.. a wounded child”. The oldest sad-abused-fragile puppy grew up to become, in addition to an abused puppy,  an abusive adult dog. She gave birth to two healthy young puppies, then proceeded to bite them so badly over many years, that they too became sad, abused and fragile. The older of the two younger puppies took  on a Super/ Savior Puppy Role, she was going to help and fix all those injuries of the oldest puppy and the youngest puppy.

    Now I will focus on what happened between the two younger puppies (because you are clear about the oldest puppy): the two puppies, sad-abused-fragile, had a common enemy (whom they loved desperately and hated). They had a together- time pointing out the faults of their common enemy. This was their common ground.

    The Super-Savior Puppy was and always has been super motivated to fix the younger puppy, a role born early on. Super Puppy will do anything to fix younger puppy, so motivated that she is willing to look into her own thinking and behavior and challenge these to see if it will help her fix younger puppy. She looks at her behavior and thinks: I am guilty for this and that, I hurt younger puppy saying this and that, I shouldn’t have.

    Younger puppy is not motivated to fix anyone. She is not a Super- Savior puppy, so she is not motivated to do whatever it takes to fix or save anyone. She is not  motivated to look into her thinking and her behavior and consider making real changes. Instead, what younger puppy does is what some dogs do, burying carcasses and bones in the ground. She buries her hurt and anger in the ground, sits on it; once in a while she digs it up, throws it at whomever is around (being “hysterical and crazy”), buries it again,  adds to it, reburies it and repeat.

    The carcass and bones of older puppy are above ground. Younger puppy’s carcass and bones are under ground. Younger puppy is way too angry to consider bringing up the carcasses and bones from under long enough to look at them and consider letting them go.

    Now I will leave this imagery and go back to particulars regarding #3: when at the pizza parlor back in March 2018, you told her that her presence alone distresses you, her response was: “do you know how horrible it is to say to someone that just your presence makes me upset and uneasy”, and you wrote: “She  is right it is horrible”-

    – first, it was horrible for you to experience this, to suffer in the company of your sister just because of her presence. It didn’t cross your sister’s mind that it is horrible for you. What came to her mind was only how horrible it is for her- self centered to the extent of it not occurring to her how it feels for you. Second, she said how horrible it is for you <i>to say</i>, not how horrible it is for her to hear it. She is pointing the finger of blame at you: you said it, you are bad!

    Your sister and you are not on the same side and your mother on the opposite side, not outside the context of the two of you talking about what your mother did wrong. Outside this context, the two of you are on opposite sides. She repeatedly accuses you of being a bad person, and you feeling bad for  it.

    She accused you of saying that you felt badly because of her presence alone and you accepted her accusation, “she is right it is horrible”, that is, she is right- I am horrible for having said what I said.

    Here is a different scenario in that same place and time: you tell her how distressing it is for you to be in her presence, she responds: I am so sorry sister, I know how hard you try to help me and make me feel good, so I know it must be horrible for you to get so  distressed simply because I am present -If she said that, you would have probably felt better, validated, because she acknowledged how hard you tried for  so long, that you are a good person. But she didn’t say any of that, no empathy for you, only an accusation of how bad you are.

    What she did right there is add to her carcass and bones arsenal, to burry along with all that’s already buried.

    I think that the reason you felt so distressed in the pizza parlor before she said anything is that you expected her to say something to make you feel bad, so you jumped ahead and felt bad. You knew from experience what was to come.. it was only a matter of time.

    Regarding your recent post: I agree, she did want you to help her many times, when she moved to AZ, when she moved to Manhattan, when she had the medical emergency and many other times. Yes, she wants that kind of practical/ material help. But as far as mental help: understanding herself or understanding you, she is not interested in any of your help.

    What I meant by her helping herself to you, is not in the context of practical help, but in the context of mental help. You want to help her to be mentally healthy. This is truly what she needs. But this is not what she wants. She wants to feel better without understanding anything better, without learning (and therefore, without healing, because learning and healing are synonymous).

    At times when she is in a significant crisis, she is focused on the current emergency and she will not complain to you when you add to the practical help you provide efforts to help her mentally. She may even pretend that she is interested in your mental health efforts to help her,  so to not discourage you from completing the practical portion of the help.

    When she is not in the midst of a significant crisis, when she doesn’t desperately need your practical help, what she is helping herself to in the mental realm is this: she is helping herself feel better by making you feel bad.

    #2, Feb 2018- all that I quoted was what you wrote about your mother but it all fits your sister perfectly. The two of them exhibit severe personality disorders which means that neither one of them did or will challenge their own thinking and behavior, so indeed, they “will always be the same”.

    You wrote then: “I essentially feel that I may have some power to prevent this beast from becoming a monster… Whether you feed it or whether you let it starve.. it is all the same. The monster is a monster at the end of the day.Now and forever”-

    -the monster feeds on you, you are the food. It makes your sister feel good when you are feeling bad, this is what a monster is about. You see her as a puppy but that puppy is biting and feeding on you. How can you possibly feel good in her presence? Only if you forget and have silly sister time with her, as long as you forget.

    Your mother too felt better when she made you feel bad.

    You and your husband chose to move to California, to have a new beginning. Bring the monster to California and it will feed on  you yet again. (Isn’t it amazing how a person you love so much- wants you to feel bad, isn’t it amazing that a person you care so much for- feels better when you feel bad.. and they go about making it happen, again and again).

    This is the hallmark of abuse. Basically what I am saying is that your sister is stuck in a pattern of accusing and blaming you and making you feel bad, that she is very unlikely to change this pattern.

    Now, let’s say you share with her that when she says this and that, and when she does this or that, it makes you feel bad and therefore you will no longer practically help her, what she is likely to do, is to be very careful to not say this and that or do this or that specific thing. And you may think that she changed and that the relationship is getting better (all this probably happened already), but it is not true.

    She didn’t change, she adjusted her strategies. She will find new ways to make you feel bad, catching you by surprise.

    You wrote: “I essentially feel that I may have some power to prevent this beast from becoming a monster.”, but the beast is already a monster, the puppy is already a monster. Like you wrote: “The monster is a monster at the end of the day. Now and forever”.

    anita
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    #334858

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Thank you for taking the time to write the thorough post. I have read just the beginning. Over the next few days I’m going to be extremely hectic moving in and out of the apartment and getting things ready for the move. I didn’t tell you, but we are going to India for the month of February. Something my husband has not done in years and it will be special! We haven’t planned or booked the tickets yet lol! Crazy times.

    I will give the post the time and respect it needs next week after this weekend passes, I will get back to you on Monday or Tuesday after reading it all thoroughly and letting it sink in and posting my reply.  Just wanted to let you know in case you’re waiting for my reply throughout the weekend. Yay Cali Chica is going to California! Let’s get it going!! Talk to you soon my dear Anita- have a great weekend and talk next week!

    #334864

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    How exciting, Cali Chica is going to India with husband, and “Cali Chica is going to California!”

    Thank you for the note, no rush at all regarding my recent post to you. I would say that the only reason for you to rush to it would be if you planned to take your sister with you to India or to California. Or if you resume the frequent, ongoing communication you had with her before going somewhat MIA. But if you don’t have such bad plans in mind, then no rush.

    Have a great weekend yourself and talk to you next week!

    anita

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