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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • #432174
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Btw did you ever express to your parents that you don’t want to study medicine? That you would prefer engineering? And what did your father state as his reasons as to why you should study medicine over engineering?

    #432212
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “So you never told them what was bothering you? Have you ever tried telling them?” I tried at one point but they couldn’t understand how I felt. They said it was my fault that I am alone and my fault for failing to make friends. I realized that no matter how many times I try to explain things to them, they won’t understand. Then the conversation about suicidal people came up, and I tried to defend suicidal people and trying to make my parents understand the pain they may be going through, but my dad still said they were idiots. So based on that response, how can I ever tell them that I am suicidal? Even with the church situation, when they confronted me, I had to deny it so that they would not overthink it. I just stopped wasting my time trying to express myself. After a while, my hatred for them grew to a point where I just decided I did not want them to ever understand me. I have been doing most of my responsibilities by myself since I was a kid anyway, barely ever asking them for help. Over time they did their responsibility by checking up on me to see if I was happy and etc, but I always told them I was fine and living a normal life.

    “But you did tell it to your school/church friend, didn’t you? Because you told her that you attempted suicide because of your parents. Did you tell her what you didn’t like about your parents’ behavior?” No I told her that I attempted it cause of a lot of things. I made a website to confess my feelings to my first ever crush, but my classmate released it to the public without me knowing and so I become a clown in three different schools. I laughed it off though. But the difference is that everyone was laughing AT me, instead of WITH me. On the day I found out that the website was released, my crush’s best friend told me that I was a creep and the website for my crush was wrong and disrespectful and humiliating for her and etc. I couldn’t say anything. Days later I eventually gathered up my courage to ask my crush out, but when the time came, I decided to just apologize to her for the humiliation I caused her and then I went to my classroom and cried. We barely ever spoke after that. I was already struggling with making friends, being pushed away by most of my classmates. Every time we had recess I would just wander around campus searching for a “friend”. Then the bomb incident happened and my classmates started teasing me about it too, asking me questions about how to build bombs and etc, and I entertained them by explaining how to build them. I laughed that off too. But they were all laughing at me. Then the incident with the group project happened, and cause the girl was crying and it was my fault, her friends were all against me and I had to bottle down my tears. I remember them saying a lot of bad things to me, but I couldn’t come up with a response cause I didn’t have a smart mouth like they did, so I had to just take it. Then when I tried to rant to the church girl’s brother, he told me that nobody cares. I realized that he was right. Who wants to listen to another person’s rant anyway? Who has the time to be dealing with other people’s problems other than therapists (who usually only do it cause they are paid)? As I drowned in my depression, I started remembering all the times I tried to make friends and they all pushed me away as a kid. I remember when I made friends with the neighborhood kids but a girl managed to convince them to not play with me. I remembered the times when I completed my work on time so I could hang out with my “friends” but as soon as I caught up with them, they said that they were done with the games and they were going home, but I went home and sat on the porch while watching them continue playing in secret without me. I remembered the time when I changed schools and I had to literally beg my classmates to make me their friend, to let me hang out with them. Eventually I quit begging but my teacher refused to let me stay inside the classroom reading books because I needed vitamin d from the sun. I remembered the amount of parties I went to where all the kids that were my age pushed me away like an outcast. And all I could do was find a corner to sit down and patiently wait until it was time to leave. And I remembered how my parents looked at me like I was a burden to them. I remembered a lot more of similar events and it made me come to accepting that maybe it would have been better if I never existed.

    I didn’t tell the girl all of this, but I did tell her a brief description of how I was being treated by my classmates and I told her that I felt like a burden to my parents and that I wished I was dead or non existent. The conversation was too brief for me to get time to explain in detail. And then she told her parents and the rest of the drama happened.

    “So after your suicide attempt, they had other parents lecture you. What did those other parents tell you?” No not after the suicidal incident. It was about a year or so later when I was lectured saying that my way of thinking is wrong and I should just change my mindset like the flip of a switch and etc. I had become a pessimist after going through so much cause it was the only way I could prepare myself for whatever experience life decided to throw at me. The parents started indicating that I am stubborn for not changing my ways and they were getting tired of advising me when I refused to change and etc. Basically I made a fool of myself in front of them when I tried to express my reasons for the way that I was. There was a party once and the kids my age, though I have known them for years, pushed me away again like an outcast, so I decided to sit by myself. A parent noticed and asked me why I wasn’t with the other kids, and I told him that they didn’t want me around, to which the guy said I should still try to make friends and I shouldn’t sit by myself and etc. Like what part of “THEY DON’T WANT ME AROUND” did he not get? I already tried to be friends with them and they rejected me. What does he not get about that? So for the rest of that night, I continued arguing with that parent trying to make him understand how I felt, while he kept repeating that it is my fault for not taking the initiative and etc.

    “What did your school teachers say about you? What did the Church men say?”
    My school teachers told my mom that I was a quiet and reserved student but they expected better from me due to the “potential” I was wasting and etc. They have noticed that I wander around the school and have seen my sitting by myself away from the other kids and they think it is my fault for not engaging with other kids. They told me that I should grow up and act more mature for my age cause depression and pain is just a state of mind and not real. The Church men said similar things too, that I should follow the path my father has chosen for me cause it gurantees a good future for me and I shouldn’t continue the way that I am acting because it is not mature for my age and that a lot of people are experiencing much worse in life and they do not complain and so I should just endure whatever emotional/mental issue I am having and move forward because that is what a man does and etc.

    “So you are saying your parents still have impacted your emotional and mental health, because they haven’t realized the mental and emotional deterioration that was happening, they haven’t given you the encouragement you needed and the understanding that you expected from them. And they let you go through this process ALONE, all by yourself.” Yes that is what I am saying. But because they cannot understand my pain and suffering, they shut me down when I tried to express myself a few times, after which I decided to just bottle up all my emotions, making them unaware of my suffering.

    “So you are basically saying that your parents’ treatment did affect your emotional and mental health. That there was something they failed to do: they failed to realize your mental and emotional deterioration, i.e. your suffering. And they failed you give you encouragement and understanding you needed, which left you feeling all alone.” Yes that is what I am saying. But I will still forgive them because it was my decision to bottle up my pain and hide my emotions from them, because I knew that they would simply tell me to just suck it up instead of trying to understand what I was going through. Why waste my time trying to explain something when I already know the outcome? But I know that they still took the responsibility to check up on my mental/emotional health, but I just hid my suffering from them cause they cannot understand what I am going through. So I know they had good intentions, but their inability to understand me prevented them from being good parents.

    “You are saying that their failure to provide those things left a mark on your mental and emotional health. Which means you are basically agreeing with me, because I have been saying the same.” Yes that is what you don’t get. I was literally agreeing with you that my parents were cruel to me, but the difference is that I know my parents had good intentions, they just had poor execution of their intentions cause they could not understand the pain I was going through. That is the part u seem not to understand.

    “This image is bs, if I may say so. It has nothing to do with how a good, strong and yet compassionate man should behave. The very fact that you are supposed to ignore your emotions and your heart cannot lead to wise decisions. You cannot be wise and at the same time ignore and suppress your emotions.” It may sound bs but a lot, and I mean A LOT of families still work with this ideology. That is why there are a lot of cases where women leave their partners or look down on them when their partner reach a breaking point and starts crying or something. You may not be aware of it but this ideology is quit common around the world and so men have no choice but to keep their emotions under control because if they cry or something, their partners tend to see it as weakness and inferiority as they expect their man to “hold down the fortress” and not “whine”. I am not saying good women do not exist, because I know that a lot of men found women that understood them emotionally but the reality is there are a lot of women who do not understand this. The point is not that we should ignore our emotions, but to have it bottled up so that it doesn’t cause us to make rash decisions in the time of need.

    “Also the idea that you need to “lead” your wife – who supposedly is not too smart and needs your guidance – is super misogynist.” Please don’t misunderstand, I am not saying that the wife is not smart enough and needs the man’s guidance, but that the family should be following the father as he would be taking the responsibility of the leader that carries the foundation of the home while the mother keeps the home intact from the inside. Without both of them, a home will not stay intact for long. Both partners are equal but they have their own roles to play in a family. A father cannot act as a mother and a mother cannot act as a father. They have their own set of responsibilities and skills and roles that are important when it comes to turning a house into a home. It is kind of like a figure of speech, I am not saying that “men are smarter than women” or “women are incapable” and etc. If you read what I said a while back, you would notice that I want to serve my wife. I want to treat her like a queen, make her feel special, show her respect and etc. I am not saying my wife is inferior to me at all, so please don’t misunderstand.

    “This whole idea of man wearing the pants and making all important decisions in the family is bs.” Tee, I am not saying the man gets to make all the decisions, cause there are times when the woman has a better solution than the man. But the man is technically supposed to be a leading figure. When the house is on fire, you rely on the man to ensure the family is safe. When there is maintenance work to do around the property, the man is expected to do it. The primary responsibility of disciplining your children is also the father’s, but that doesn’t mean the mother shouldn’t discipline their children. I am not saying that women are stupid or anything misogynistic so please don’t misunderstand. These are just examples, please do not overthink them.

    “If you believe you need to be that kind of man – the kind of man your father taught you to be and that he himself is – then I am sorry, I cannot help you.” Tee, just go back and read how I want to be with my wife, cause you are misunderstanding me too many times now especially after expressing how much I want to be able to SERVE my wife.

    “But you said you wanted to be an engineer (computer engineer, if I understood well). That should be acceptable enough for Asian parents. But they still wanted you to study medicine.” My main goal was music but I also wanted to do software engineering. My parents didn’t want to do it because there are too many unemployed computer engineers out there and they didn’t want me to be stuck like that. There is always a high demand for doctors all over the world, so they believe that I have a higher chance of getting a job as a doctor, which is why they pushed me down this path. Besides, they were also focused on the amount of respect I would earn in society as a doctor, as well as advantages when it comes to impressing my future bride’s parents, and other advantages. But yea, even among Asians, some of us are not that lucky.

    Paradoxy

    #432213
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Tee, just go back and read how I want to be with my wife, cause you are misunderstanding me too many times now especially after expressing how much I want to be able to SERVE my wife.

    I know what you have said – you have expressed your opinion of women (which mostly aligns with your parents’ opinion of women). You defended your parents’ suspicions of women from the Western hemisphere (“I was just telling her about the experiences they had with women from this side of the world”), who were exposed to the influence of “the modern society”.

    In order to “prove” this prejudice about women, you listed various examples of women being gold-diggers and cheaters. You mentioned some woman juggling three men while seeking to rip of a rich Chinese guy, and also more evidence of such immoral women that your father regularly lets you know about in your daily phone calls.

    You also said, and now you are repeating, that it is actually women’s fault that men have to stuff their emotions:

    That is why there are a lot of cases where women leave their partners or look down on them when their partner reach a breaking point and starts crying or something.

    You may not be aware of it but this ideology is quit common around the world and so men have no choice but to keep their emotions under control because if they cry or something, their partners tend to see it as weakness and inferiority as they expect their man to “hold down the fortress” and not “whine”.

    So women force men to stuff down their emotions? Not perhaps your father and other men who tell you to “suck it up and be a man”?

    And when you say “cry or something“, maybe “something” means when they become verbally and physically aggressive? So perhaps women leave their husbands not because they are sensitive and crying, but because they are aggressive and can’t control their anger?

    I am not saying that the wife is not smart enough and needs the man’s guidance, but that the family should be following the father as he would be taking the responsibility of the leader that carries the foundation of the home while the mother keeps the home intact from the inside.

    Without both of them, a home will not stay intact for long. Both partners are equal but they have their own roles to play in a family. A father cannot act as a mother and a mother cannot act as a father. They have their own set of responsibilities and skills and roles that are important when it comes to turning a house into a home.

    Yes, what you are describing is a patriarchal system, in which the man is the head of the family, and men and women have strictly defined ROLES. It is the woman’s role to give birth and take care of the children and the household, while it is the man’s role to make all important decisions.

    Some of those roles are natural, because men obviously cannot give birth. Also, it is ideal e.g. that the woman spends time with the baby when it is born, while the man goes to work and provides for the family. Also, men and women are different in physical strength and skills, so some of those roles are natural.

    But some of the roles – such as making the man in charge of decision making – is an invented, imposed role. It stems from a false belief that men are smarter than women.

    You exemplified the same belief many times when you said that it is normal for women to act stupidly and make stupid decisions. Also, when you found excuses for B’s inappropriate behavior by claiming that she is stupid and “operating on literally three brain cells”.

     you are misunderstanding me too many times now

    I am not misunderstading you, Paradoxy. I know very well what you said and what your beliefs are. You expressed them many times, including now, in this latest post.

    I am not saying good women do not exist, because I know that a lot of men found women that understood them emotionally but the reality is there are a lot of women who do not understand this.

    You say you agree with me, but in the very next breath you come with an explanation why you are still right about women being gold diggers, cheaters, or even forcing men to suppress their emotions (which is one the most ridiculous claims I’ve heard).

    You want to keep focusing on the “lot of women who do not understand this“, same as your father, who is quick to tell you about examples of immoral women in his daily phone calls with you.

    So it seems you want to remain in this patriarchal system, which looks down on women and wants to keep them in their place, in their “role” (which is a subservient role that men have imposed on them).

    Tee, just go back and read how I want to be with my wife, cause you are misunderstanding me too many times now especially after expressing how much I want to be able to SERVE my wife.

    How can you serve your wife, if you believe you have to lead her and make decisions for her?

     

    #432232
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I haven’t responded to the first part of your post, where you talk about your feeling of loneliness and not being understood, first by your parents, and then by other adults, such as your teachers, church men and other parents.

    I want to say I am sorry for the pain you went through, and especially that you had to go through it alone.

    They said it was my fault that I am alone and my fault for failing to make friends.

    When you complained to your parents about being rejected by other kids, they blamed you. When you started feeling depressed about it, they summoned other parents to lecture you:

    I was lectured saying that my way of thinking is wrong and I should just change my mindset like the flip of a switch and etc. I had become a pessimist after going through so much cause it was the only way I could prepare myself for whatever experience life decided to throw at me.

    School teachers blamed you too for not hanging out with other students:

    My school teachers told my mom that I was a quiet and reserved student but they expected better from me due to the “potential” I was wasting and etc. They have noticed that I wander around the school and have seen my sitting by myself away from the other kids and they think it is my fault for not engaging with other kids. They told me that I should grow up and act more mature for my age cause depression and pain is just a state of mind and not real.

    They also told your mother that depression is “not real” and that you should snap out of it, basically. Without offering any psychological help for you.

    The Church leaders lectured you too, telling you to follow the path your father has chosen for you. They minimized your mental/emotional problems and said you should get your act together, because you are a man:

    The Church men said similar things too, that I should follow the path my father has chosen for me cause it gurantees a good future for me and I shouldn’t continue the way that I am acting because it is not mature for my age and that a lot of people are experiencing much worse in life and they do not complain and so I should just endure whatever emotional/mental issue I am having and move forward because that is what a man does and etc.

    Unfortunately, all adults that you interacted with, including your school teachers, failed to provide support for you. Instead, they blamed you – the child – for having psychological issues. It wasn’t only your parents, but the entire system you grew up in. They all showed a complete disregard and ignorance about children’s mental health issues, as well as emotional needs of children.

    It is very clear to me that your emotional needs weren’t met, and that’s why you felt unloved and like a burden to your parents. I am pretty sure that it is because of the same reasons – of feeling unloved and rejected by your parents – that you later felt rejected by your peers too:

    THEY DON’T WANT ME AROUND

    That’s because the false belief was already formed in your subconscious (the false belief being “I am unlovable” and “I am a burden”). And this false belief served as a self-fulfilling prophecy and brought about situations where you ended up feeling rejected by your peers all the time.

    It all stems from the basic message that your parents gave you: “you are unlovable as you are”. “You are a burden to us.”

    Everything that you’ve experienced later is the consequence of that false foundation, which your “house” (i.e. your sense of identity) was built on.

    I do understand you and where your problems are coming from. And I’ve been trying to explain that mechanism to you. But you don’t seem to accept that explanation. You keep blaming yourself, claiming that you would have turned out the same even if you had more loving parents, or that everybody around you (all adults) are the same and that you wouldn’t be a good enough son-in-law for anybody etc.

    I was trying to tell you that the system you are trying to fit in is corrupt, and that you don’t need to try to fit in. But you keep making excuses for the system, saying that these practices are widespread: “almost every Asian family does this same thing”, “A LOT of families still work with this ideology”, “OTHER PARENTS SHARED THE SAME GOAL AS THEM”.

    Basically, what you are saying is that emotional abuse is normal in your community, or your social circle. However, it doesn’t make it less problematic, or less harmful. Because even if it’s normal, it is NOT HEALTHY. It is not a system in which a person could really thrive and be happy. It is a system based on suppressing our true self and our true needs.

    So you would need to decide: do you want to keep defending the distorted system that caused you great emotional harm and suffering, or you want to start focusing on healing from that system?

     

    #432255
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I wasn’t expecting compassion or pity from her. I just wanted her to understand HER FLAWS. Not understand MY ISSUES. I wanted her to FIX HERSELF. I wanted HER to IMPROVE, so that she would become the PERFECT WOMAN for me. That is completely unrelated to my unmet need because if that was the case, I would be trying to make her understand MY ISSUES and sympathize with ME. Instead I tried to CORRECT HER. I wanted to FIX HER.  I wanted to sympathize with HER and keep correcting her when she misunderstands things about me like assuming that I was cheating and etc, cause these misunderstandings were the core reasoning behind her foolish decisions.

    Yes, you wanted her to become a better person. But why? So that she wouldn’t hurt you anymore. You said it here:

    SHE IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HER MISTAKES SO SHE CAN CORRECT THEM BECAUSE I WANTED TO LOVE HER WITHOUT HER CAUSING ME MORE PAIN

    You wanted her to understand that she is hurting you with her actions, didn’t you?

    You also didn’t want to be falsely accused by her and made seem like an abuser:

    I don’t like the feeling of being made to look like the abuser while she pretends to be the victim.

    You confirmed that you kept fighting with her even after the breakup because you wanted to prove to her that you are a good person, with good intentions:

    [my question] Okay, so you are aware that she is like a snake, but you still have the urge to prove it to her that you didn’t deserve to be bitten – that you are a good person, right?

    [your reply] Yes that is precisely it. But I think I am doing it for myself too. Because the things she say makes me question myself and doubt my intentions when making decisions. Proving her wrong gives me some form of inner peace. I want to prove that my intentions were pure, even if some of my decisions were poorly made.

    [my question] So the dynamic is: one part of you (your inner child) believes he is a source of pain for others. And he is trying to prove that he isn’t. He is trying to prove that he is a good, loving boy, with pure intentions, and that he doesn’t want to hurt anybody.

    [your reply] Yes that is precisely what is happening. I never wanted to hurt anyone. But talking to B is reminding me of all the persons who looked down on me, the list is not limited to the stories that I have told you about my past cause other small incidents occurred that doesn’t have a major impact but it still ended the same way as everyone else. Even with the case with Anita, it was not my intention to hurt her, but in the end that is what I did and I am to be blamed for that.

    So a lot of your arguments were about you trying to prove to her that you are a good person, not an abuser. It was you trying to make her understand YOU, make her have empathy for YOU.

    You felt like a bad person, a person who causes others pain. And when she would accuse you of being a bad person with her too, you wanted to prove that she is not right (“I never wanted to hurt anyone. But talking to B is reminding me of all the persons who looked down on me”).

    That’s why I said that your endless arguing with her was motivated by you attempting to prove something about YOURSELF (that you are a good person, who doesn’t want to cause others pain).

    It wasn’t just an attempt to change her, as you are claiming now. And even your attempt to change her was so that she wouldn’t cause you pain with her actions. You needed her to understand that she was causing you pain. Something your parents never understood and never had interest in understanding.

    That’s why I believe (and you actually confirmed it in your earlier posts) that you staying with her for so long, engaging in endless arguments to prove your point, was very much about meeting your own need: the need to prove that you are a good and loving person. The need to prove your innocence, i.e. good intentions.

    And the need to explain to her that she was causing you pain. Which is in fact the need for her to empathize with you.

     

    #432313
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “I know what you have said – you have expressed your opinion of women (which mostly aligns with your parents’ opinion of women).” That was not the one I was referring to. My opinion of women was stated when I expressed my morals. Another time I expressed my opinion of women is when I said this:

    “My father taught me to still consider it because there are times when the women is actually right but it is my responsibility to make sure if the woman’s decision is logically viable. There are certain things that women are good at and certain things that men are good at. Please don’t misunderstand, I am not trying to be disrespectful to women. Treasured does not mean they should take care of their husband’s needs. Treasured is more like saying the women should be considered a prize. Someone who should be protected at all costs. Someone who should be loved and cared for and understood and valued.”

    So you have the wrong understanding of me. There are a lot of “gold digger” women, and my parents adviced me to be cautious, but they are not saying that every woman is a gold digger, but move forward in life without lowering my guard cause it is better to be safe than sorry.

    “You mentioned some woman juggling three men while seeking to rip of a rich Chinese guy, and also more evidence of such immoral women that your father regularly lets you know about in your daily phone calls.” Some stories I heard from him, some stories like the story with the Chinese guy I heard from the guy himself, and other stories from others, and I have seen stories myself cause I was there when they were going through the experience.

    “So women force men to stuff down their emotions? Not perhaps your father and other men who tell you to “suck it up and be a man”?” I didn’t say that men like my father didn’t force other men to shut down their emotions, I said that there are a lot of women who leaves their partner or perceive their partner as weak when they show their emotions.

    “And when you say “cry or something“, maybe “something” means when they become verbally and physically aggressive?” No, more like ranting or sometimes they become quiet and distant cause they are reflecting on their emotions or other activities that help them cope with sorry. Some women also hate men who are clingy. Verbal and physical aggression is more linked with anger than sorrow, so unless there is a lot of anger mixed in with the sadness, it is less likely to occur, but the annoying thing is that a lot of women tolerate actual abuse which is just stupid because they deserve better.

    “So perhaps women leave their husbands not because they are sensitive and crying, but because they are aggressive and can’t control their anger?” I wish that was the case because then it would be reasonable.

    “Yes, what you are describing is a patriarchal system, in which the man is the head of the family, and men and women have strictly defined ROLES. It is the woman’s role to give birth and take care of the children and the household, while it is the man’s role to make all important decisions.” Already indicated that I was not referring to the patriarchial system but if my words are not getting through to u, there is nothing I can do. I literally just said a woman’s duty is just as important as the man’s duty.

    In a team of medical physicians, there will be a leader that takes the responsibility of gathering everyone to work together and take care of their individual responsibilities but that doesn’t mean the other physicians are not important. They all have a purpose. One may focus on the bone while the other may be a dietician or a radiologist or a surgeon. Each person has their responsibility and their own experiences and it is the combined thinking that helps them figure out a treatment plan for a patient.

    So stop putting words in my mouth cause I never said that a woman’s role is to give birth and take care of children and that the man’s role is to make all the important decisions, cause that is not true. Both of them are supposed to work together as the man take the responsibility of leading.

    “I am not misunderstading you, Paradoxy. I know very well what you said and what your beliefs are. You expressed them many times, including now, in this latest post.” You just did. You just put words in my mouth and assumed what I was trying to say instead of trying to understand properly.

    “Also, when you found excuses for B’s inappropriate behavior by claiming that she is stupid and “operating on literally three brain cells”.” The number of times she has made poor decisions and the number of times we have argued over the same point AFTER AGREEING WITH ME made me just come to the conclusion that she is not thinking. And obviously I was exaggerating to make my point.

    “You say you agree with me, but in the very next breath you come with an explanation why you are still right about women being gold diggers, cheaters, or even forcing men to suppress their emotions (which is one the most ridiculous claims I’ve heard).” Are you saying that these types of women do not exist?

    “You want to keep focusing on the “lot of women who do not understand this“, same as your father, who is quick to tell you about examples of immoral women in his daily phone calls with you.” When I told you the stories of immoral women, I told u that I WAS THERE for some of the stories while other stories I heard from the persons themselves. Maybe u have forgotten.

    “How can you serve your wife, if you believe you have to lead her and make decisions for her?” Go back and READ. Cause this conversation is becoming pointless now because I already stated COUNTLESS TIMES that I WANT TO SERVE my wife. I never said I WOULD MAKE THE DECISION FOR HER. You are doing exactly what the others did. Assuming things and telling me I am wrong without actually understanding what I am trying to say. Go back and read what I said about my morals.

    ” I am pretty sure that it is because of the same reasons – of feeling unloved and rejected by your parents – that you later felt rejected by your peers too” How is it a feeling if my peers actively rejected me? They specifically said that they did not want to be my friend. I told you. I had to LITERALLY BEG until I finally gave up. That is not cause of the false belief, cause the belief started forming when I was in Grade 9-10 but the rejections started since Grade 1. The rejections caused the belief, not the other way around.

    “I was trying to tell you that the system you are trying to fit in is corrupt, and that you don’t need to try to fit in.” Society is already corrupt, maybe not a lot where you live but definitely in all 4 countries that I have lived in. The system I described is not just for me, it happens all over the world. I never said I am defending the system. I am saying that I understand the system’s intentions, but the system is not working positively towards those intentions. That is what you don’t understand. I have been repeating this so many times now.

    “You wanted her to understand that she is hurting you with her actions, didn’t you?” I wanted her to understand because the decisions she were making that ends up harming herself was also harming me. Like her decision to sleep with the guy in January. Though that horrible experience was hers alone, that experience is also mine even if I didn’t experience it because her pain is also my pain cause that is how much I loved her. Same goes in other situations too. If she makes a bad investment and loses a lot of money, even if it is her money, I would still be upset about it and ask her to do better next time because I don’t want her to be suffering financially. I wanted what was best for her. I even chose to leave her after certain fights because in my head I felt she deserved someone better than me.

    “So a lot of your arguments were about you trying to prove to her that you are a good person, not an abuser. It was you trying to make her understand YOU, make her have empathy for YOU.” Those arguments were AFTER the break up. So at that point I was in the process of detaching from her and trying to stop myself from caring for her. So in that case, yes I did try to make her understand me because despite the amount of times I showed her exactly what she did wrong, she pins the blame on me, saying that I am a cheater and etc, but I didn’t seek her empathy. I just wanted her to realize that I am not the bad person she thought I was. I had reached a point where I didn’t care whether she changed or not. If she changed, good for her. But I am not giving her another chance so I don’t care if she changes or not.

    BEFORE the break up, our arguments were to help her be better. Cause at the beginning of the relationship, her issue was indecisiveness. Cause she kept changing her mind about things and it was becoming annoying so I told her to get her act together and stick to her decisions, but I did not expect that the decisions she were going to stick to were all the wrong decisions. So I was not trying to meet my own need, I wanted her to be wiser when making certain decisions so that we won’t be suffering cause of poor decisions.

    “That’s why I believe (and you actually confirmed it in your earlier posts) that you staying with her for so long, engaging in endless arguments to prove your point, was very much about meeting your own need: the need to prove that you are a good and loving person. The need to prove your innocence, i.e. good intentions.” You are getting a little confused here. BEFORE the final break up, what I expected from B is to make decisions based on how her actions would hurt BOTH OF US, especially me because her decision to sleep with the man hurt me, hiding her ex hurt me, lying to me hurt me, hiding what happened in January hurt me, her decision to go to the resort with her guy friend hurt me, her decision to post herself publicly in revealing outfits hurt me, her choice of clothing when in public hurt me and etc. I wanted her to understand that those poor decisions hurt me, and therefore she should make better decisions next time. I was not trying to make her understand cause of my unmet need. I wanted her to understand so the relationship could be fixed and we could move forward respecting each other.

    But AFTER the final break up, I stopped caring for her. So at this point, the arguments were because she accused me of being a cheater and etc and blaming me for breaking up for invalid reasons, so that annoyed me and made me want to show her exactly who is to be blamed for this mess and that is why I tried to prove my innocence and etc AFTER the break up. So please don’t misunderstand.

    Paradoxy

     

     

     

    #432343
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Stop putting words in my mouth cause I never said that a woman’s role is to give birth and take care of children and that the man’s role is to make all the important decisions, cause that is not true. Both of them are supposed to work together as the man take the responsibility of leading.

    I was not referring to the patriarchial system but if my words are not getting through to u, there is nothing I can do.

    Dear Paradoxy, you have described a patriarchal system to a tee, as well as exemplified a stance of superiority over women so many times in your posts. These are just some of the things you said about women:

    The women these days are becoming more entitled and feministic. They are not wife material.

    She displayed all the characteristics that I was looking for in a good wife, excluding the stupid things that most woman do, like overthinking and not listening etc, which I did not mind cause I knew it was normal for women.

    You believed you possessed a superior wisdom:

    Her parents did not take care of her well and so it was her aunt who actually took care of her so that would explain why she is so stupid. But even then, I always told her that if she is unsure, she could ask me for any advice as my father’s wisdom was passed down to me over the years that he taught me.

    You also attempted to impart that wisdom on her, by teaching her how to properly behave, as if she, a 24-year old educated woman, who in addition reads her Bible every day, doesn’t know what is prudent and not so prudent behavior.

    When she repeatedly refused to follow your guidance on proper behavior, you believed that she was intellectually impaired, i.e. stupid and oblivious, rather than someone who was sly and manipulative and pretended to agree with you even when she didn’t:

    The number of times she has made poor decisions and the number of times we have argued over the same point AFTER AGREEING WITH ME made me just come to the conclusion that she is not thinking.

    And why have you concluded that she was not thinking? Because that’s what you were taught to believe about women: that they are not thinking.

    Next, here is your description of the patriarchal system, which you claim is not patriarchal:

    The family should be following the father as he would be taking the responsibility of the leader that carries the foundation of the home while the mother keeps the home intact from the inside.

    The man is technically supposed to be a leading figure.

    Both of them are supposed to work together as the man take the responsibility of leading.

    I am not fit to be a son-in-law because most fathers want a son that is mature and man enough to handle the responsibility of being the man of the house. And that is a huge responsibility, and requires leadership skills, which I definitely lack due to my lack of confidence due to my poor mental and emotional health. I need a certain level of wisdom to understand how to handle the responsibilities of being the man of the house. Being the man of the house also requires me to ignore my emotions when taking responsibilities.

    So you portray the woman as someone to keep the home intact, and the man as the leader. What does a leader do? Makes decisions, tells the rest of the family (including his wife) what to do. His word is the last. So when you say “the man takes the responsibility of leading”, you are describing the patriarchal system – even as you are denying it.

     

    Anyway, I am not interested in arguing with you. My only motivation for engaging in a conversation with you was to help you. Because you came here confused, not knowing what to do and emotionally exhausted, after having been in a state of turmoil since January this year.

    There was a time in our conversation when you seemed interested in getting a different perspective – a perspective that might explain why you feel the way you feel, and that might help you heal your emotional wounds and make better choices in the future (including the choice of a romantic partner).

    But it seems that right now, you are not interested in that, but rather in arguing and proving your point.

    My impression is that at the moment you are not willing to get to the root of the problem, because it might be painful for your inner child. And that’s why you took a defensive stance, where you argue one of my main points: of needing to heal your emotional wounds from childhood. Because if you acknowledged it, you would need to look deeper into it, and it is scary.

    Right now you are in a defensive mode, and nothing I say can reach you.

    So I will say goodbye now, hoping that with time, your stance will change, and that you will choose to actually heal those painful parts, rather than denying that they exist.

    I wish you well, Paradoxy, and till perhaps another time, Godspeed!

     

    #432358
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “Dear Paradoxy, you have described a patriarchal system to a tee, as well as exemplified a stance of superiority over women so many times in your posts.” Obviously you misunderstood.

    “You believed you possessed a superior wisdom” How is me offering better solutions than her solutions supposed to indicate that I have superior wisdom than others? I was saying that the least she could do was to ask me for advice when she is unsure before making her decision cause I have proven countless times that I am capable of making better decisions than her. How is that supposed to indicate I am acting superior? I was talking about her specifically, not women in general.

    Are you saying that entitled feminist women do not exist? Are you saying there are no stupid things that a lot of women do that is common between them? Cause my experience says other wise. I have seen how a lot of women behave and it is way too similar and common behavior so I naturally started expecting them from every girl. That doesn’t mean I haven’t considered women who could be exceptions.

    “When she repeatedly refused to follow your guidance on proper behavior, you believed that she was intellectually impaired, i.e. stupid and oblivious, rather than someone who was sly and manipulative and pretended to agree with you even when she didn’t” You have not experienced life with her. You only know things from what I have described. You cannot comprehend the emotions and other things that are felt when spending time with her. I am not saying she is intellectually impaired. I am saying she has poor decision making skills. Why would any woman in their right mind knowingly allow other people to take advantage of themself? She did not repeatedly REFUSE to follow my guidance. She just said she would change her ways and just going back to doing the same thing. She is not actively REFUSING, she is just not trying. It is like procrastination, where you know you have to do it but you are too lazy to do it.

    “And why have you concluded that she was not thinking? Because that’s what you were taught to believe about women: that they are not thinking.” WHY ARE YOU DRAGGING FEMINISM INTO THIS? I am talking about B ONLY. ONLY HER. I am not talking about ALL women in general. I am speaking SPECIFICALLY about B. The amount of times she has made these poor decisions and allow herself to get harmed, you telling me that she was thinking properly through all of it? It is VERY obvious that she just lacks poor decision making skills.

    “So you portray the woman as someone to keep the home intact, and the man as the leader. What does a leader do? Makes decisions, tells the rest of the family (including his wife) what to do. His word is the last. So when you say “the man takes the responsibility of leading”, you are describing the patriarchal system – even as you are denying it.” Oh my goodness Tee, you are misunderstanding. You could have at least read through my medical team example to understand what I was trying to say. A leader doesn’t simply make decision and tell the others what to do. If that is what you describe to be a leader, you will never be respected as a leader. A leader is supposed to ensure the group works together. A leader takes responsibility over the ENTIRE group. It is a TEAM EFFORT. Without the TEAM, a leader is NOTHINGGGGGG. And a Team without a leader would be very DISORGANIZED and UNPRODUCTIVE. It is the same in a family. Without the family to support him, the man is nothing. That is why there is a saying that there is a woman behind every successful man.

    I am sorry but it looks like Feminism is a sensitive topic for you so I understand why you are becoming defensive. I am interested in seeing a different perspective but that doesn’t necessarily mean I have to agree with the perspective. But what you don’t realize is that I never disagreed with your perspective. You are the one disagreeing with me when essentially we are saying the SAME THING. I am not arguing to prove my point, I am arguing to correct your misunderstanding of what I am saying cause you think I am trying to say men are superior to women. Men are not superior. They are both equal. But equal doesn’t mean they can do the same thing. Each person has their own responsibility. Like women are better at emotional intelligence than men. Obviously there are exceptions but that is a general thing. That is also why you tend to see more female therapists than males. That doesn’t mean women are superior. Women are just better at some things while men are better at other things. In marriage, both of them have to WORK TOGETHER, instead of making independent decisions. Please. Stop. Misunderstanding. I am not being misogynistic. I AM AGREEING WITH YOUR PERSPECTIVE. All I am saying is that YOUR understanding of MY PERSPECTIVE is not correct. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Try to understand that I am not against you. You ignore half of the things I say and then try to accuse me of being misogynistic? You grab on to the information YOU want and then use it to make your point instead of understanding the information as a WHOLE. I think that is just rude. I don’t see where I denied my painful wounds so I don’t know what you are talking about. But anyway, I wish you the best as well. Goodbye.

    Paradoxy

    #432379
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    You ignore half of the things I say and then try to accuse me of being misogynistic? You grab on to the information YOU want and then use it to make your point instead of understanding the information as a WHOLE

    Actually I am looking at the bigger picture here – at everything you said, not only bits and pieces.

    WHY ARE YOU DRAGGING FEMINISM INTO THIS? I am talking about B ONLY. ONLY HER. I am not talking about ALL women in general. I am speaking SPECIFICALLY about B.

    Your experience with B cannot be observed separately from your view of women. They are intertwined. And it seems the fallout with B actually led you to confirm your bias against women, because this is what you said:

    The experience I had with her was enough to make me hate women in general. I am safer alone.

     

    Are you saying that entitled feminist women do not exist? Are you saying there are no stupid things that a lot of women do that is common between them?

    I don’t know what you mean by entitled feminist women? And of course, there are many women who are cheating on their partner, or marry for financial reasons (perhaps more so in your part of the world, I wouldn’t know). However, you cannot make generalizations and accuse all women, or women in general, to be like that. It would be like saying that all men are alcoholics and beat their wives, because there are some who are like that.

    Your parents brought you up with such a false generalization, which says that most women in the modern society are likely to be cheaters and gold diggers:

    they don’t trust women in general because they have seen many ruined relationships with cheating and gold diggers and etc

    You too accepted this generalization as the truth, so even though you don’t think that all women are immoral, you believe that good, honest women in the modern world are exceptions to the rule:

    They have taught me that women in the modernized world, can have ulterior motives for loving you so I should have my guard up and should not be vulnerable around a woman. But I am wise enough to realize that though they meant their words to apply to all modern woman, there will always be exceptions to their belief and I should become wise enough to distinguish a proper woman from gold diggers and etc.

    I have seen how a lot of women behave and it is way too similar and common behavior so I naturally started expecting them from every girl. That doesn’t mean I haven’t considered women who could be exceptions.

    So the rule, i.e. the false belief that you adopted, is that most women in the modern world are immoral and not “wife material”.

    This is the misogyny that I am talking about: believing that the majority of women is bad, but allowing for exceptions.

    Please. Stop. Misunderstanding. I am not being misogynistic. I AM AGREEING WITH YOUR PERSPECTIVE

    You still believe you are not misogynistic? Believing that good women are an exception to the rule?

     

    #432448
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “Actually I am looking at the bigger picture here – at everything you said, not only bits and pieces.” Clearly you are seeing the bigger picture wrong cause you are still forgetting certain things that I said.

    “Your experience with B cannot be observed separately from your view of women” You are saying that just cause of one statement where I expressed that I prefer being alone cause I don’t want to be hurt? Obviously I would fall in love again at one point, even if I hate women now, it won’t last for long. I don’t hate women themself, I just hate the pain they cause. You couldn’t understand that I was simply too broken to ever want to deal with women again?

    “I don’t know what you mean by entitled feminist women?” Women who think they are equal to men and capable of doing whatever they want and they think that men are trying to act superior to them and they get offended over the smallest things that men say about women and they demand respect instead of earning it.

    “However, you cannot make generalizations and accuse all women, or women in general, to be like that.” But I never said ALL women. I said most women. I used the term “most” because based on the countless number of people that I have met, the ratio of bad women to good is like 93:100. I have obviously acknowledged that good women exist. See how easily you twist my words and assume the wrong meaning?

    “You too accepted this generalization as the truth, so even though you don’t think that all women are immoral, you believe that good, honest women in the modern world are exceptions to the rule” Cause I came across too many evidences that state this generalization to be true to an EXTENT? But I am still wise enough to know that not all women are immoral, I am aware that exceptions exist. Does that not count for anything?

    “So the rule, i.e. the false belief that you adopted, is that most women in the modern world are immoral and not “wife material”. This is the misogyny that I am talking about: believing that the majority of women is bad, but allowing for exceptions.” So you are saying that it is misogynistic to say there are a lot of bad women who have ulterior motives to dating you while also stating that there could be some good women? I also think that there are a lot of immoral men who choose to sleep around with multiple women, and even father children with them only to leave them as single mothers, and men who use women for sex and men who cheat on their own partners and etc instead of settling down with one woman. Does that make me a misandrist? Obviously I have acknowledged that there are good people. But the amount of bad people is so overwhelmingly large, I cannot simply ignore the possibility of coming across them. I have come across too many women who wear revealing outfits to attract men’s attention and sleep with a bunch of them without the slightest respect for their own body, women with body counts in the double digits and I have come across too many women who thinks men should pay for everything and therefore take advantage of the men to pay their bills and etc. I have also come across too many men who prefers to “enjoy their youth” sleeping around with multiple women EVEN WHEN their ideal woman is right in front of them. I have come across too many men who prefers “friends with benefits” instead of having a real relationship. There was even a guy who slept with SEVENTEEN women within his very first week in college just cause the women wanted to sleep with him. But I know good people exist but I cannot afford to be naive enough to expect everyone to be good. How is that misogynistic? Cause if I was misogynistic, you would have to consider me misandristic too.

    There was a time when B and I were hanging out with our classmates and some college seniors when we came across the topic of dating and marriage. When they asked me about my relationship, I told them that I wanted to marry B, and they all laughed at me and called me naive for assuming my relationship would work out. They said it is good to have dreams like that but unfortunately it is not that practical, only extremely lucky people get to the stage of marriage, especially in their first relationship, cause a lot of women and men cannot be trusted. They said that was why most of them choose to have sex for fun instead of committing. They told me I would experience the truth the hard way. I tried to prove them wrong but you know what happened.

    “You still believe you are not misogynistic? Believing that good women are an exception to the rule?” Yes I do not think of myself as misogynistic because I know that good women exist, but unfortunately there are too many bad women in society today for me to just ignore the possibility of coming across them. The same applies to men. My decision to keep my guard up against all women doesn’t mean I see all women as gold diggers and etc. I am just keeping my guard up to protect myself from being hurt by them. I believed in the good in people at one point and that caused me to fall in love with B within a few months and also caused me to be stupid enough to ignore the red flags despite seeing them. I am not making that mistake again. I still believe in the good in people but I am not going to give my trust to people without them earning it first, but don’t assume that I see them all as untrustworthy, I just do not want to make myself vulnerable to the wrong person and be hurt by them. And that applies to men AND women. There is no misogyny in that. So don’t misunderstand.

    I am NOT saying all women are immoral and etc. I am saying that a lot of immoral women do exist, so I have to keep my guard up until I can differentiate between bad women and good women to avoid being hurt by the wrong people. My decision to keep my guard up doesn’t make me a misogynist.

    Paradoxy

    #432467
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I have obviously acknowledged that good women exist. See how easily you twist my words and assume the wrong meaning?

    I am absolutely not twisting your words. I said that you see good women as an exception to the rule. And you confirmed it. You said that 93% of the women you met were bad (“based on the countless number of people that I have met, the ratio of bad women to good is like 93:100″).

    And that’s misogyny. Because you extrapolate your experience to a wider population and believe that indeed, the large majority of women is immoral. And btw, our personal experience is very subjective, which means that some of the women you met and didn’t like might have indeed been immoral. While some other (such as your school friend) might have been good, caring people, but you saw them as bad.

    You actually said an extraordinary thing:

    I have realized that even though she has done a lot of stupid things, she is still 100000x better than most of the other women that I have met.

    So B – who was lying to you, cheating on you, and even prostituted herself behind your back – appeared to you as 100 thousand times better than most other women you met. Well, if you believe that a woman of a pretty low morale is still much better than 93% of the women out there, it shows that your view of women is pretty distorted. And unfortunately, it shows that you despise women.

    Here is your definition of entitled feminist women:

    Women who think they are equal to men and capable of doing whatever they want

    In what sense equal to men? You mean these feminists seek to have an equal say in the marriage?

    When you say “doing whatever they want”, do you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to cheat on their husbands? Or perhaps you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to pursue a career they prefer?

    So what exactly are they doing, which shouldn’t be allowed?

     

    #432516
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “I am absolutely not twisting your words. I said that you see good women as an exception to the rule.” No I am referring to you calling me a misogynist despite admitting that I know good women exist.

    “You said that 93% of the women you met were bad (“based on the countless number of people that I have met, the ratio of bad women to good is like 93:100″).” Don’t get me wrong, I meant bad in terms of relationship wise, not in terms of being a kind/good human being. All of them are good people, but they just have their own selfish agenda when it comes to relationships.

    “And that’s misogyny. Because you extrapolate your experience to a wider population and believe that indeed, the large majority of women is immoral.” But it is not just based on my experience though, it is based on my experience AND other people’s experiences, including people close to me as well as strangers online all over the world. Let me rephrase it for you to understand better: A large percentage of women ARE immoral, and you will most likely come across more immoral women in your life than moral women. Would you be happier if I didn’t use the term “majority”?

    “While some other (such as your school friend) might have been good, caring people, but you saw them as bad.” I said that my school friend had good intentions, but she didn’t respect my wishes, and I will never trust her again for breaking her promise to me. That doesn’t necessarily mean I see her as bad per see but as someone I would never trust again.

    “So B – who was lying to you, cheating on you, and even prostituted herself behind your back – appeared to you as 100 thousand times better than most other women you met. Well, if you believe that a woman of a pretty low morale is still much better than 93% of the women out there, it shows that your view of women is pretty distorted.” I said “she is still 100000x better than most of the other women that I have met”. The key phrase is “most of the other women THAT I HAVE MET”. When I mentioned the ratio, I also stated “based on the countless number of people THAT I HAVE MET”. Therefore, the 93% applies to the women that I HAVE MET, not every single women in the world. Obviously, I wouldn’t be able to account for 4 billion women that live all over the world, so no, my view was not distorted cause I was only making reference to the women I know.

    “And unfortunately, it shows that you despise women.” If I really despised women the way you think I do, I wouldn’t still be searching for the ideal woman.

    “In what sense equal to men? You mean these feminists seek to have an equal say in the marriage?” No, I respect real feminists but the entitled feminists simply take advantage of it for their own selfish benefit and they do things such as, work less than men and still expect to be paid the same as men and then blame the pay gap on gender inequality despite being fully aware that the pay gap was only caused by the difference in work quality. Entitled feminists think they can do everything a man can, cause they don’t recognize that females are better at certain things like emotional intelligence while men are better at other things. Entitled feminists would try to say that the best female soccer team in the world is equal to the best male soccer team. In terms of relationships, an example of an entitled feminist would be someone who would look at a man’s expectations in a woman and call him a “bigot” but when the woman have expectations for a man, she would be called a “woman with good standards”. Another example of an entitled feminist would be a women who calls themselves strong and independent and etc but they hate when the guy they are dating splits the bill 50/50. And another example would be women who see men as controlling when all they are trying to do is protect them.

    “When you say “doing whatever they want”, do you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to cheat on their husbands? Or perhaps you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to pursue a career they prefer?” Why do you sound like you are just searching for a reason to call me a misogynist lol? You know exactly what I am trying to say but you will still make suggestions like “perhaps you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to pursue a career they prefer?”. Like seriously? No I am not saying women shouldn’t be allowed to pursue the career they prefer. “Doing whatever they want” is in terms of women who think they should be allowed to participate in activities such as partying or clubbing and spending time with other men when they are obviously in a relationship, and when their man expresses that he doesn’t want her to go to clubs and etc, she calls him a controlling freak. Stop trying to look for a reason to twist my words.

    Paradoxy

    #432524
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    A large percentage of women ARE immoral, and you will most likely come across more immoral women in your life than moral women.

    The way you phrase it sounds like an undeniable truth. You truly believe that the majority of women (or at least the majority of women in “the modernized world”) are immoral. And then you tell me you are not a misogynist? Lol.

    Speaking of the “modernized world”, do you mean the entire Western society? Are there countries that don’t belong to the modernized world, where you believe women are more moral?

    Therefore, the 93% applies to the women that I HAVE MET, not every single women in the world.

    It is not just based on my experience though, it is based on my experience AND other people’s experiences, including people close to me as well as strangers online all over the world.

    Okay, so your conclusion that the large majority of women is immoral is based not only on your own experience, but also experience of the people close to you (e.g. your parents), and also on what other people are sharing on various online platforms all over the world. Does it mean you participate in such online groups, where men share their experiences of women?

    Don’t get me wrong, I meant bad in terms of relationship wise, not in terms of being a kind/good human being. All of them are good people, but they just have their own selfish agenda when it comes to relationships.

    What do you mean by that? You’re saying that a woman can be a good and kind person, but be selfish when it comes to her romantic relationship. In what sense is she selfish?

    “Doing whatever they want” is in terms of women who think they should be allowed to participate in activities such as partying or clubbing and spending time with other men when they are obviously in a relationship, and when their man expresses that he doesn’t want her to go to clubs and etc, she calls him a controlling freak

    Okay, this sounds like B. She would go partying with other men (e.g. the rich Spanish guy and his friend) and then felt “crucified” by you when you objected. She was definitely selfish, had no consideration for your feelings.

    It is also true however that you didn’t want to go to any of the parties with her (if I understood well?). For example, she wanted to go to a concert, but you didn’t. And so she went alone, with her girlfriends. You said she was an extroverted person, and you just wanted to stay home most of the time, right? (also because you had to learn for your exams)

    So I think we should make a distinction there between 2 scenarios: one is when the man is trying to restrict his girlfriend’s social life and all of her interactions with other men (which might be innocent, friendly interactions). And another is when the girlfriend is behaving inappropriately, flirting with other men, and then calling her boyfriend a control freak. I guess she was falsely accusing you of being a control freak, when she in fact was behaving inappropriately with other men.

    In terms of relationships, an example of an entitled feminist would be someone who would look at a man’s expectations in a woman and call him a “bigot” but when the woman have expectations for a man, she would be called a “woman with good standards”.

    What were your expectations on B, for which she called you a bigot?

    Another example of an entitled feminist would be a women who calls themselves strong and independent and etc but they hate when the guy they are dating splits the bill 50/50.

    I agree with that. If the woman expects from the man to always pay, that’s not fair. It’s nice when the guy is a cavalier and offers to pay, but it’s not something the woman should expect and resent if the guy doesn’t offer.

    And another example would be women who see men as controlling when all they are trying to do is protect them.

    You mentioned earlier that you felt like you have to protect B from a potential assault:

    I know that if I do not protect her, her stupid behind is going to get herself in trouble again and I do not wish to wake up tomorrow to learn that she was raped and murdered.

    So I guess you were afraid that her wearing revealing outfits will get her in trouble? And so you tried to control what she is wearing, so she would be safe (among other things)? But she saw it as you trying to control her, right?

    As you have described her, she is someone who likes wearing revealing outfits, and actually likes male attention (e.g. she responded to sexting, initiated by your class mate). Which means she is a type of girl completely different from what you are looking for in a woman, which is modesty and chastity. And your mistake was to try to “regulate” her instead of letting her go.

    The thing is that we should never try to change our partner, especially if that requires a major change in their character or behavior. We should accept them as they are. Or if we can’t tolerate their behavior, and they are not willing to change, we should let them go.

    I would also like to say that in some countries men believe that a provocatively dressed woman “asked for it”, if she gets sexually assaulted. And that’s very wrong, because regardless of how a woman is dressed, it shouldn’t be a reason to get sexually attacked or harassed.

    I very much disagree with the idea that women should dress modestly, so not to “entice” men. It’s the men’s responsibility to control their urges, not women’s. Because if we take this to an extreme, it can lead to forcing women to cover up head to toe, which is a severe oppression.

    So anyway, when you say you tried to “protect” her by dictating the type of clothes she was wearing, that’s not really the way to treat a woman. If you can’t accept her clothing style, you shouldn’t be with her. Simple as that. Everything else is a form of control.

    I respect real feminists but the entitled feminists simply take advantage of it for their own selfish benefit and they do things such as, work less than men and still expect to be paid the same as men and then blame the pay gap on gender inequality despite being fully aware that the pay gap was only caused by the difference in work quality.

    As far as I know, there are a lot of examples where women are paid less for exactly the same job as men. There was a survey in which they asked women and men about their job interviews, and it turned out that women typically accept the salary they are offered, whereas men tend to bargain with the employer to get a higher salary.

    I guess that too is one of the reasons why women tend to get less money for exactly the same job: they are not confident enough to ask for a higher salary. And the employer doesn’t care about what is fair – they only care about cost minimization.

    Entitled feminists think they can do everything a man can, cause they don’t recognize that females are better at certain things like emotional intelligence while men are better at other things. Entitled feminists would try to say that the best female soccer team in the world is equal to the best male soccer team.

    Who is even comparing male and female soccer teams (or any other sports)? Nobody is comparing physical strength of men and women, because that’s indisputable. But a woman might be a good manager, or a good prime minister, or hold any leading position. Of course, provided that she has the necessary skills and talents. Excluding the woman, or paying her less, just because she is a woman – that would be inequality.

    Why do you sound like you are just searching for a reason to call me a misogynist lol? You know exactly what I am trying to say but you will still make suggestions like perhaps you mean they shouldn’t be allowed to pursue a career they prefer?”. Like seriously?

    Well, you have some pretty strong views of women, and you did say you grew up in an old-fashioned family, so I thought I’d better check…

     

    #432551
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “The way you phrase it sounds like an undeniable truth. You truly believe that the majority of women (or at least the majority of women in “the modernized world”) are immoral. And then you tell me you are not a misogynist? Lol.” Lol don’t worry, I rephrased it to satisfy you.

    “Speaking of the “modernized world”, do you mean the entire Western society? Are there countries that don’t belong to the modernized world, where you believe women are more moral?” Unfortunately I do not have a list, but the modernized world is in reference to countries that are heavily influenced by the crazy role models that young people listen to on social media platforms like Instagram and tiktok etc. It refers to the countries with societies where certain moral values have been twisted/manipulated and blind people follow them without realizing it is a trap.

    “Does it mean you participate in such online groups, where men share their experiences of women?” I do come across men sharing their horrible experiences (as well as females sharing their experiences with men) on platforms like Instagram and Youtube etc. But other than that, my classmates and other seniors here all have stories to tell of their experiences.

    “What do you mean by that? You’re saying that a woman can be a good and kind person, but be selfish when it comes to her romantic relationship. In what sense is she selfish?” Selfish as in they enter the relationship expecting to be served instead of serving each other as partners and like the stories I told you weeks ago, they have some form of ulterior motive to their relationship, like financial gain or citizenship or etc. I am not saying men are not selfish either cause I have met quite a lot of as*holes in college, like a guy living on hall looking to have a sex based relationship with women and to my utmost amazement, women are willing to entertain him and the stories the guy told me has me out of breath due to the amount of disappointment that I feel towards him and the women he enjoyed himself with. So ig I cannot really blame women for being the way they are since they probably encountered some men who treated them wrong. I think it is an endless cycle of hurting each other: when a guy gets heartbroken for the first time, he teaches himself to be numb and then he breaks a girl’s heart, and then the girl breaks another guy’s heart and the cycle continues.

    “Okay, this sounds like B. She would go partying with other men (e.g. the rich Spanish guy and his friend) and then felt “crucified” by you when you objected. She was definitely selfish, had no consideration for your feelings.” True, but you have to also acknowledge that she did all those things AFTER the break up, not while in the relationship.

    “Okay, this sounds like B. She would go partying with other men (e.g. the rich Spanish guy and his friend) and then felt “crucified” by you when you objected. She was definitely selfish, had no consideration for your feelings.” You are partially correct. I am an introvert and she has asked me to go to parties with her but I always disliked it cause it makes me very uncomfortable going to such places since the people at these parties are not people you actually want to be around. For example, you would see a lot of females in revealing outfits teasing men or dancing sexually (such as shaking their asses at men) and behaviors like that really make my skin crawl and I cannot be in those kinds of environments. But B respected me and did not go to any parties or anything while in relationship with me and she would always ask me first before making her decisions. And even when she went to the party after the break up, she had received permission from me to go to her girl’s night out prior to the break up, and permission to go to the resort, prior to the break up. The only thing I didn’t account for was the way she would behave at the parties. Like I said, I am fine with her going to parties and resorts and enjoying herself, but she has to know how to act at these places. I should not be seeing her wearing revealing outfits like very thin bikinis/thongs and enjoying herself while other men are staring at her enticingly, especially since she is a very beautiful/sexy woman.

    “And another is when the girlfriend is behaving inappropriately, flirting with other men, and then calling her boyfriend a control freak. I guess she was falsely accusing you of being a control freak, when she in fact was behaving inappropriately with other men.” B didn’t call me a control freak or anything similar to that though. I was referring to other women that I have come across who told me about how their boyfriends are control freaks for not letting them party and etc.

    “What were your expectations on B, for which she called you a bigot?” She didn’t call me a bigot though. I was talking about the other women that I have talked to. Not B specifically. B was fine with doing as she was told (idk if she held any hatred in her hurt but she never expressed any hate towards me for being “controlling”). B usually asks me about my opinion before making decisions but Ig sometimes she just never took my advice to heart and now she has to pay for it. It was the other women that live on hall near me who told me their stories. Cause I always asked the men and women here for their advice because this was my first relationship and so they have told me a lot of stories about their relationship experiences. Their stories convinced me to be less controlling by giving B the freedom to make her own decision while keeping it clear what I expected from her. Guess she didn’t fully understand cause she crossed the line I told her not to cross.

     “I agree with that. If the woman expects from the man to always pay, that’s not fair. It’s nice when the guy is a cavalier and offers to pay, but it’s not something the woman should expect and resent if the guy doesn’t offer.” Exactly, I agree with that, but I also came across a lot of stories that made me realize that the person who should be paying for the date is the one who suggested the date in the first place, which is usually the man. So then that would be fair, cause it was the man’s idea to go on the date and so he should take full responsibility for it and be willing to pay for the whole date instead of doing 50/50. But even if it was the women’s idea to have the date, I still feel like the man should show the courtesy of offering to pay, as it is a sign of respect and love towards the woman.

    “So I guess you were afraid that her wearing revealing outfits will get her in trouble? And so you tried to control what she is wearing, so she would be safe (among other things)? But she saw it as you trying to control her, right?” You are partially correct. I did want to protect her from men cause I know how wicked men can be and the best course of action would be to wearing outfits that does not attract too much attention, cause it is much easier to change the outfit than change every man she comes across. But the part you got wrong is that she never saw it as controlling… or as far as I know, she never expressed that she felt like I was controlling her. But despite that, she still managed to get herself in the position of being sold off for sex to a man. So that just shows that I have no choice but to protect her at all costs since she was not wise enough to realize what she was getting herself into.

    “As you have described her, she is someone who likes wearing revealing outfits, and actually likes male attention (e.g. she responded to sexting, initiated by your class mate).” Ehhhhh not exactly. She is always fully clothed (except when she is at home… where her ex also lives) but she looks very sexually appealing in every outfit she wears no matter how fully clothed she is. So at that point, I can’t do anything regarding her clothes.

    “And your mistake was to try to “regulate” her instead of letting her go.” Maybe it is due to my fantasy mindset… you know like those movies where you see men changing their behavior for women and women changing their behavior for men due to their power of love and etc. I just thought that maybe B could change too if I loved her enough.

    “Or if we can’t tolerate their behavior, and they are not willing to change, we should let them go.” But she looked like she was changing though. From my perspective, it looked like she was improving herself and changing her ways.

    “I would also like to say that in some countries men believe that a provocatively dressed woman “asked for it”, if she gets sexually assaulted. And that’s very wrong, because regardless of how a woman is dressed, it shouldn’t be a reason to get sexually attacked or harassed.” Yea I am aware of those men. But I think they have some point though. It is wrong to say that the women deserved to be harrassed for their choice of clothing, but technically, they would have been safer if they had chosen a better set of clothing. Cause like I said, it is much easier to change your outfit than change the nature of every single person you come across. I am not saying I support those men though, so don’t get me wrong. I just think that in this cruel world, you cannot expect others to be kind towards you so the only thing you can do is to protect yourself by adapting to the situation.

    “I very much disagree with the idea that women should dress modestly, so not to “entice” men. It’s the men’s responsibility to control their urges, not women’s. Because if we take this to an extreme, it can lead to forcing women to cover up head to toe, which is a severe oppression.” I completely understand. I wish the world was a much better place too but there is nothing I can do if B were to get raped or something by these cruel men that exists today. Everyone has to do what they can to protect themselves cause that is how horrible society truly is.

    “So anyway, when you say you tried to “protect” her by dictating the type of clothes she was wearing, that’s not really the way to treat a woman. If you can’t accept her clothing style, you shouldn’t be with her. Simple as that. Everything else is a form of control.” Yea sure, I gave her the freedom to do whatever she wanted and she ended up being a victim to her own aunt’s manipulation and got sold off for sex. Even if I were to leave her, don’t expect me to not grieve if something bad were to happen to her.

    “As far as I know, there are a lot of examples where women are paid less for exactly the same job as men. There was a survey in which they asked women and men about their job interviews, and it turned out that women typically accept the salary they are offered, whereas men tend to bargain with the employer to get a higher salary.” Well I can only speak for the experiences I have come across and in those experiences, women were being paid less due to the lower quality of work. But there could be companies and other people who take advantage of the gender inequality though.

    “Who is even comparing male and female soccer teams (or any other sports)?” A lot of women are foolish enough to make stupid comparisons like that lol. There was an Australian women’s football team where the women thought they could play better than men but they ended up losing to 15 year old boys with 12-0 score. And in another case, a women’s football team decided to play against retired male soccer players to prove that women are better than men but they also ended up losing too.

    “But a woman might be a good manager, or a good prime minister, or hold any leading position. Of course, provided that she has the necessary skills and talents. Excluding the woman, or paying her less, just because she is a woman – that would be inequality.” Of course. Everyone deserves equal opportunity to prove their skills. That is real feminism, cause it ensures that everyone is treated fairly, but the entitled feminists take advantage of genuine feminists who are fighting sincerely and use it to promote their own agenda and that is why female inequality still exists today. There are a lot of feminists today that think men are useless and that they can run the world without men, but they always end up forgetting that most of the things that they have used on a daily basis are things made and maintained by men.

    “Well, you have some pretty strong views of women, and you did say you grew up in an old-fashioned family, so I thought I’d better check…” Lol alright fine fine, I understand your intentions but I also hope you understand mine too.

    Paradoxy

    #432571
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I would like to address the examples of immoral women and rampant promiscuity that you’ve mentioned so far:

    There is a girl here who is dating three men at the same time, and none of them know each other. Each man treats her well but as soon as one man leaves for work or something, she has the next man come over. And another thing is that she ensures that she does no service other than sex for the main bf. So far as to make sure that she cooked something for herself and ate it right before her bf came over. She has her man literally starving whenever he comes over or he brings food for her himself.

    There was another girl, who was dating a rich chinese dude. Whenever he invited her to dinner or something, she would bring her real man claiming that he was just a friend or she would have him buy gifts for her, which she either kept for herself or gave to her real man. Eventually the chinese guy figured it out and he left but still, the audacity of the girl to cheat RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM is crazy.

    The men here are no better either but I noticed that it is actually a cycle. Either a man or woman gets cheated on, and then they proceed to become a cheater in their next relationship and then whoever they cheated on becomes the next cheater and the cycle continues.

    The amount of bad people is so overwhelmingly large, I cannot simply ignore the possibility of coming across them. I have come across too many women who wear revealing outfits to attract men’s attention and sleep with a bunch of them without the slightest respect for their own body, women with body counts in the double digits and I have come across too many women who thinks men should pay for everything and therefore take advantage of the men to pay their bills and etc.

    I have also come across too many men who prefers to “enjoy their youth” sleeping around with multiple women EVEN WHEN their ideal woman is right in front of them. I have come across too many men who prefers “friends with benefits” instead of having a real relationship. There was even a guy who slept with SEVENTEEN women within his very first week in college just cause the women wanted to sleep with him.

    What you have described is a very promiscuous culture, and so I looked up prostitution in the Caribbeans. And to my dismay, I have learned that the Caribbeans are amongst the top destinations for sex tourism, and that a lot of older men go there to have fun with young girls (and young boys), who are often only in their teenage years.

    It seems that poverty there is widespread, and so prostitution became normalized, as a way to earn money. Which is how B’s aunt views prostitution – as a source of income – and perhaps even B was socialized into that mindset.

    I’ve also learned about sex traffickers (some of them of Asian origin), who are organizing illegal immigration from Venezuela to Trinidad and Tobago. They promise young girls from Venezuela a job in a bar or a hair salon. But once they reach Trinidad and Tobago, their passports are taken and they are kept against their will, and used for prostitution. It is all enabled by corrupt police officers, so there is no way for it to be sanctioned.

    After learning all that, I understood that prostitution is widespread in the Caribbeans, and it is a way for poor women to earn income. And that’s why you probably saw examples of women sleeping with multiple men, or having one “main” boyfriend, and other men on the side. Probably those other men are paying for sex. I know that in Thailand for example, married women are prostituting themselves (typically with tourists), and their husbands know about it and tolerate it, because that’s the source of income.

    So it’s not that the women in the Caribbeans are promiscuous for fun. They are promiscuous because that’s the culture they are socialized into. Same as B was socialized into it, having her aunt as her role model and her “pimp”.

    The aunt upholds the belief that men should be used to get rich and ensure a good life. And even this selfish attitude (the attitude of a gold digger) could be the logical reaction to the sad truth that women are used by men for sex. So a “smart” woman (in her view) would then turn this into her own advantage and “outsmart” the man, and at least get herself out of poverty.

    I am not at all excusing this entire mindset, because it is toxic and humiliating. I am only trying to understand how come there are so many “wicked” and “immoral” women where you live.

    I am curious what are your thoughts on this? I’ve made these observations based on a few internet articles, so I am not claiming anything, since I don’t know the real conditions there. But anyway, let me know your thoughts?

     

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