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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • #432588
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “What you have described is a very promiscuous culture, and so I looked up prostitution in the Caribbeans. And to my dismay, I have learned that the Caribbeans are amongst the top destinations for sex tourism, and that a lot of older men go there to have fun with young girls (and young boys), who are often only in their teenage years.” Not sure about that but I won’t be amazed if it is true. From what I have heard, men go to Asian countries in search for a wife, Caribbean and other similar countries in search for a fling, and modernized countries for gf/bf relationship. That is what I have heard.

    “It seems that poverty there is widespread, and so prostitution became normalized, as a way to earn money. Which is how B’s aunt views prostitution – as a source of income – and perhaps even B was socialized into that mindset.” But a lot of third world countries have a lot of poverty though, so what exactly would drive prostitution to rise to such a large level?

    “It is all enabled by corrupt police officers, so there is no way for it to be sanctioned.” Coincidentally, the girl who has 3 different boyfriends is actually working as a cop…

    “After learning all that, I understood that prostitution is widespread in the Caribbeans, and it is a way for poor women to earn income. And that’s why you probably saw examples of women sleeping with multiple men, or having one “main” boyfriend, and other men on the side.” I am not too sure if prostitution can be compared to cheating…. cause they still keep them around like partners instead of leaving it as a fling after they get what they want. As far as I know, the women are actually maintaining a relationship with them, not just money.

    “So it’s not that the women in the Caribbeans are promiscuous for fun. They are promiscuous because that’s the culture they are socialized into. Same as B was socialized into it, having her aunt as her role model and her “pimp”.” Not going to lie, but I am having a hard time believing that prostitution is part of the culture….

    “The aunt upholds the belief that men should be used to get rich and ensure a good life.” The last thing I heard about her is that she is getting baptized and changing her life etc but I don’t believe it and I don’t plan to forgive her for what she did. Maybe God will, but I can’t.

    “And even this selfish attitude (the attitude of a gold digger) could be the logical reaction to the sad truth that women are used by men for sex” Yeah I am pretty sure men just decided that it is better to use women for sex by giving them money instead of being used by women and have their money taken from them.

    “So a “smart” woman (in her view) would then turn this into her own advantage and “outsmart” the man, and at least get herself out of poverty.” Exactly, which is why I said this is a cycle: One person gets used, and they decide to use others so they won’t get used themself, then the others who get used decide to do the same thing because they also don’t want to be used again. It is just a continuous cycle of hurt.

    “I am curious what are your thoughts on this? I’ve made these observations based on a few internet articles, so I am not claiming anything, since I don’t know the real conditions there. But anyway, let me know your thoughts?” I find it very difficult to believe that prostitution is part of their culture, cause all this gold digging and etc I learned from the American culture, while my parents learned about it from Black culture. But I guess everyone has different reasons/motivations to doing all these immoral activities. I also noticed that a lot of black families are single parented, so growing up in that kind of household could play a factor, idk. But even then, most people are aware of morality. Even B. She grew up surrounded by these immoral activities but she said that these activities were disgusting to her and she will never follow that path. But like I said, she had COUNTLESS opportunities to use men for money and etc, but she didn’t. She is extremely beautiful and a lot of men are attracted to her, to the point of even blackmailing her job if she doesn’t sleep with him, but she still didn’t do it. So she is aware of these morals. She knows it is wrong, and it doesn’t seem like she wanted to take advantage of others. But idk, maybe I am just making up excuses for her. But based on all the time that I spent with her, I think she just lacked good parenting where her parents didn’t advice her well enough.

    I even talked to my cousin last night and she is 17 and even she has a poor understanding of society and life etc. She doesn’t even know why stealing is wrong. She just knows that stealing is wrong, but not why it is wrong. And I am confused as to how this kind of mindset even came around. What made them stop questioning things? What made them stop trying to understand? What made them think like robots, never wondering why certain things are wrong and why certain things are bad?

    Paradoxy

     

    #432592
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    You would see a lot of females in revealing outfits teasing men or dancing sexually (such as shaking their asses at men) and behaviors like that really make my skin crawl and I cannot be in those kinds of environments.

    The only thing I didn’t account for was the way she would behave at the parties. Like I said, I am fine with her going to parties and resorts and enjoying herself, but she has to know how to act at these places. I should not be seeing her wearing revealing outfits like very thin bikinis/thongs and enjoying herself while other men are staring at her enticingly, especially since she is a very beautiful/sexy woman.

    So B is someone who likes to party, and those parties are the kind where girls (including B) dance practically naked, in a bikini/thongs, while men are staring at them and lusting after them. So B doesn’t mind that kind of environment, where she is looked at as a sexual object, a piece of meat. I am sure that’s how her rich old guy “friend” viewed her too.

    And indeed, they took a photo together by the pool at 6 am, after one of such parties. Surely, they didn’t all wake up early to go for a refreshing swim. But they stayed up all night, doing who knows what.

    But then you say:

    She is always fully clothed (except when she is at home… where her ex also lives) but she looks very sexually appealing in every outfit she wears no matter how fully clothed she is. So at that point, I can’t do anything regarding her clothes.

    Yes, she is fully clothed except when she is partying – that’s when she is practically naked.

    She is also fully clothed except when her ex is taking out her braids – that’s when she is naked, wrapped only in a towel. And yes, she lives under the same roof with her ex, so that’s when she is not fully clothed either.

    You also say:

    She grew up surrounded by these immoral activities but she said that these activities were disgusting to her and she will never follow that path. But like I said, she had COUNTLESS opportunities to use men for money and etc, but she didn’t.

    She didn’t? She didn’t prostitute herself for money? She doesn’t go to pool parties where she is dancing half-naked in front or rich old tourists? She didn’t let you finance her for an entire year? She didn’t take your laptop and doesn’t intend to return it any time soon? She didn’t convince you to invest in some shady financial schemes, and then used the little that you earned for her own expenses?

    She didn’t do any of that?

    But idk, maybe I am just making up excuses for her.

    Oh yes, you are. You are deceiving yourself big time. You see her as some innocent angel, who is 100000 times better than other women. But I don’t see any innocence in her, only manipulation. Her letter to you confirmed it: she felt crucified by you for having some minimum expectations. She presented herself like a victim, whereas she was lying to you and using you all the time.

    But you know, I won’t be trying to convince you of the same thing again and again. I’ve spent 11 pages analyzing her and trying to help you see how manipulative she is. But if you still think she is innocent, that’s your right.

    You tend to beautify your memory of her. Because in one post, you describe her sexually enticing dancing/partying habits, where she willingly goes to those parties and dances provocatively in front of men. But then in the very next post you claim that she always dressed modestly and that it’s not her fault that men lust after her.

    As I said, you are deluding yourself big time. You would need to decide: do you want to keep deluding yourself, or you want to finally see the truth?

     

    #432602
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “So B is someone who likes to party, and those parties are the kind where girls (including B) dance practically naked, in a bikini/thongs, while men are staring at them and lusting after them.” You are partially correct. B does like to party, but these parties are not always the kind where girls dance practically naked. Some girls wear revealing outfits though, but most of them don’t. Most of them just wear outfits that are “sexy” even without revealing much skin, but it highlights certain parts of their body, but knowing how filthy men are, they are bound to look. But there are parties where girls wear very revealing outfits. Look up the Jamaican carnival. It is a parade where the women wear extremely revealing outfits and men go for the parade just to stare at women. And then there will be a concert after the parade where the women would be dancing very sexually, entertaining the men there. B suggested that we go together for the carnival but like I told you, being in such environments makes me extremely uncomfortable and I hate it so I obviously told her that we can’t go. She appeared okay with my decision though.

    “So B doesn’t mind that kind of environment, where she is looked at as a sexual object, a piece of meat. I am sure that’s how her rich old guy “friend” viewed her too.” No, she does mind. She usually goes to parties that are more formal and wear more appropriate outfits, but that is not going to stop men from being filthy assholes. And no, her rich friend doesn’t seem to view her in that manner, based on what I know about him….

    “And indeed, they took a photo together by the pool at 6 am, after one of such parties. Surely, they didn’t all wake up early to go for a refreshing swim. But they stayed up all night, doing who knows what.” It is possible, but B said that there was no party the previous night, and she said that she went to the pool by herself before everyone woke up but she didn’t know her friend had also woken up. I would prefer not to assume that she was up doing all kinds of wrong things.

    “Yes, she is fully clothed except when she is partying – that’s when she is practically naked.” No, she is fully clothed even at parties, but her choice of outfit is more like thin to an extent, or the skirt has a very long cut. Idk how to describe it. It is like those outfits girls would wear that have an opening to stick their leg out. Or another outfit would be a top and jeans but the top is short so you can see her stomach clearly. And most of her outfits require her to wear no bra as well. So that also annoys me.

    “She is also fully clothed except when her ex is taking out her braids – that’s when she is naked, wrapped only in a towel. And yes, she lives under the same roof with her ex, so that’s when she is not fully clothed either.” No, She is clothed but her choice of clothing at home is like “booty shorts” and thin shirts with no bra. Sometimes she wears long pants though and she claims to be careful with her choice of outfits. Every time I come over to her place, I tell her to wear something more appropriate when she is outside of her room but she keeps saying that there is nobody home so she is fine. But then one day she made the same excuse and I warned her that her housemates could come back any second and she pushed off my remark like it would never happen, only for her ex to return home and she had to run back to her room to change. The issue with her ex was just a coincidence according to her, cause it was supposed to be the female housemate who was supposed to remove her braids.

    “She didn’t? She didn’t prostitute herself for money? She doesn’t go to pool parties where she is dancing half-naked in front or rich old tourists? She didn’t let you finance her for an entire year? She didn’t take your laptop and doesn’t intend to return it any time soon? She didn’t convince you to invest in some shady financial schemes, and then used the little that you earned for her own expenses?” You have the wrong understanding of things. She only prostituted herself one time, and she claims to have had no choice because her aunt had set up the whole ordeal. She did go to pool parties but that was before we started dating and she didn’t dance sexually in front of men in that manner, I believe she has too much self respect to be doing those things and they were circumstances where she had control of herself and was not forced to do anything. I financed her because she had lost her job because she refused to prostitute herself, so as her bf, I felt I should help her in the time of need, and she could just pay me back when she gets a stable job, cause I never thought of us as two different people, cause I always aimed to marry her in the future so whatever I invested in her right now, would be beneficial for both of us in the future when she has a stable job and we are married. She didn’t TAKE my laptop, I offered to buy her a laptop cause she needed one for work and she couldn’t return the laptop because she needed it for work. That was before I found out about what happened in January, but because I made the promise to her, I decided to let her have the laptop and she can just pay me back later when she has earned the money. Taking the laptop back by force would be counterproductive because she would lose her job and I am not that cruel. So I have decided to sell the laptop to her and she has started paying me back in installments. And yes she convinced me to invest in trading, and it partially worked. We made a profit of 600 dollars with the initial investment, but the guy we hired chose to party instead of focusing on the trading and so he lost all the money and we went right back to square one. We entered the investment knowing the risks, so she didn’t force me into it. I needed a passive source of income because I can’t work when I have to handle the workload from med.

    “You see her as some innocent angel, who is 100000 times better than other women.” Lol she may not be an innocent angel but she is definitely one of the better girls from what I have seen.

    “Because in one post, you describe her sexually enticing dancing/partying habits, where she willingly goes to those parties and dances provocatively in front of men. But then in the very next post you claim that she always dressed modestly and that it’s not her fault that men lust after her.” I think you misunderstood, I was speaking about the women in general about the sexual dancing and partying. Not B specifically. B does party, but she is aware of what she is doing, based on all the recordings that I secretly watched, it would appear that she never entertained any man in the sexual manner at these parties. She did dance, but not to entertain men sexually and she is fully clothed, but these clothes highly certain parts of her body like her thigh or waist or breast etc.

    “As I said, you are deluding yourself big time. You would need to decide: do you want to keep deluding yourself, or you want to finally see the truth?” How am I deluding myself? It is not like I am going to take her back. I have already received all my clothes back. I just need to get the money for my laptop and then we will be done forever.

    Paradoxy

    #432613
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    her choice of outfit is more like thin to an extent, or the skirt has a very long cut

    another outfit would be a top and jeans but the top is short so you can see her stomach clearly

    most of her outfits require her to wear no bra as well

    So she likes to party and dance without a bra. Nice. And then you say she doesn’t like when men view her as a sexual object?

    She did dance, but not to entertain men sexually and she is fully clothed, but these clothes highly certain parts of her body like her thigh or waist or breast etc.

    Okay, so she is dancing in a tight skirt with a high leg cut and a top without bra. But that’s not at all sexually enticing. It is innocent. And she has no intention to be viewed as a sex object. None at all.

    How am I deluding myself?

    Read the above. A girl dancing and partying without a bra is not seeking sexual attention from men. According to you.

    I would prefer not to assume that she was up doing all kinds of wrong things.

    Well, even if you prefer not to assume certain things, it doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. That’s a part of self-delusion: not wanting to see things that might hurt us. And she was a pro at making excuses for herself, and appearing to be innocent and oblivious, while continuing to do whatever she wants. And you fell for it.

    Btw is she still living in the same house with her ex?

     

    #432641
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “So she likes to party and dance without a bra. Nice. And then you say she doesn’t like when men view her as a sexual object?” Yea I know how stupid it sounds, but yea that is the gist of it. That is why I said she can be very stupid sometimes.  But she does wear a bra though, it is just that certain outfits only work without a bra so she adjusts the clothing so that she doesn’t have to wear a bra but it wouldn’t look like she is not wearing one.

    “Okay, so she is dancing in a tight skirt with a high leg cut and a top without bra. But that’s not at all sexually enticing. It is innocent. And she has no intention to be viewed as a sex object. None at all.” Apparently so. That is precisely how dumb she is.

    “Read the above. A girl dancing and partying without a bra is not seeking sexual attention from men. According to you.” That’s the thing, she is just a very stupid hypocrite. I have to literally spell things like this out for her in order for her to understand. She minimizes the issue and pushes it off like it is not a big deal, saying that people won’t sexualize her like that since she is technically not wearing a revealing outfit.

    “Well, even if you prefer not to assume certain things, it doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. That’s a part of self-delusion: not wanting to see things that might hurt us. And she was a pro at making excuses for herself, and appearing to be innocent and oblivious, while continuing to do whatever she wants. And you fell for it.” Maybe I did fall for it, cause a part of me still finds it difficult to wrap my mind around how stupid she is. But I would still like to give her the benefit of doubt in case our assumptions are wrong, even if her actions prove otherwise. Maybe it is the naive part of me that makes me want to give her the benefit of doubt, but giving it to her won’t change the fact that she and I are done, so it doesn’t matter.

    “Btw is she still living in the same house with her ex?” Yes she is living in the same house but the ex moved out now and a new female housemate has joined her and this new girl is always bringing different men into the house (to sleep with her I assume).

     

    Paradoxy

    #432858
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I needed to take a break from this thread and trying to convince you of things (about B) that are so obvious to me, and I believe to any outside observer, but not to you unfortunately.

    It saddens me that after more than 150 posts that we’ve exchanged, and you knowing that she was lying to you, hiding important things from you, and falsely accusing you – you still choose to trust her word. You still believe her interpretations of events and her excuses:

    The issue with her ex was just a coincidence according to her, cause it was supposed to be the female housemate who was supposed to remove her braids.

    She only prostituted herself one time, and she claims to have had no choice because her aunt had set up the whole ordeal.

    She did go to pool parties but that was before we started dating and she didn’t dance sexually in front of men in that manner,

    B said that there was no party the previous night, and she said that she went to the pool by herself before everyone woke up but she didn’t know her friend had also woken up.

    So that’s one problem that I see: you believe a liar and a manipulator on her word.

    Another problem is that you are deluding herself about some aspects of her character, e.g. that she didn’t mind being told what to do:

    B was fine with doing as she was told (idk if she held any hatred in her hurt but she never expressed any hate towards me for being “controlling”). B usually asks me about my opinion before making decisions but Ig sometimes she just never took my advice to heart.

    B didn’t call me a control freak or anything similar to that though. I was referring to other women that I have come across who told me about how their boyfriends are control freaks for not letting them party and etc.

    She might have not told you in so many words that you are a control freak, but she did tell you in her letter that she felt crucified by your expectations:

    Because I was your first relationship, you had expectations, and when those weren’t met, I was crucified but made excuses for it at the same time.

    If she felt crucified, it means she felt harshly judged and condemned for her actions. And this means she wasn’t fine at all with doing what you told her to do, i.e. with your expectations and limitations. On the contrary, she felt crucified by them.

    I am not saying that her feeling like a victim was justified. But what is for sure is that she did object to your guidance, even if she didn’t express it directly. But she expressed it indirectly: by not following your guidance, by “forgetting” what you told her, by “not thinking”.

    So she was passive aggressive about it: she felt controlled by you, but instead of telling you that directly, she simply ignored your wishes. And then she pretended that it happened by accident, that she wasn’t thinking etc.

    But of course, it wasn’t by chance – it was because she didn’t want to do as you told her. She didn’t want to be restricted by your expectations. That’s why it happened that “sometimes she just never took my advice to heart.”

    Yes, she didn’t take your advice – not because she was absent minded and oblivious, but because she didn’t want to take your advice. In her letter she made it clear that she found your guidance and your expectations limiting and crucifying.

    So this is how you are deluding yourself that she wanted to change for you, but somehow didn’t end up succeeding. The truth is that she didn’t want to change, but pretended she wanted to – because that’s how she could stay in the relationship (and be financially supported by you).

    To put it simply, she played dumb with you – she pretended she keeps forgetting how to dress and behave around men, and that she didn’t mean it, and that living with her ex doesn’t mean anything, etc etc. One excuse after the other. And you fell for it, because unfortunately, you don’t have a problem believing that women are dumb.

    And I can tell you that she is not dumb at all. Her letter proves it. She is quite intelligent and manipulative. Indeed, like a snake (the word you used to describe her at one point).

    But it seems you’ve changed your mind about her being like a snake. Now she is again a simple dumb girl, who was too dumb to learn to behave properly. And that she would need more education:

    Based on all the time that I spent with her, I think she just lacked good parenting where her parents didn’t advice her well enough.

    It seems that for you, that’s an easier qualification to stomach: that she is dumb, not manipulative. And indeed, you are very set on believing it (expressing it in your last post too):

    That is precisely how dumb she is.

    That is why I said she can be very stupid sometimes.

    She is just a very stupid hypocrite. I have to literally spell things like this out for her in order for her to understand.

    I have an idea why believing that she is dumb rather than manipulative is an easier explanation for you. But unfortunately, it’s not helpful to keep believing it, because you won’t be able to recognize abuse and manipulation in your next relationship. And you will enter the next relationship with the same false belief that women are dumb and need to be educated – which won’t lead to happiness either.

    Anyway, I won’t be able to try to convince you of anything anymore. Maybe some day you will change your mind and start to see things differently. Which I sincerely hope, for your own good.

     

    #432859
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I won’t be able to try to convince you

    Haha, this sounds like a Freudian slip on my part 🙂 Yeah, I won’t be able to convince you, probably.

    I meant to say: I won’t be trying to convince you anymore. I hope I can stick to my own word 🙂

    #432879
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “I needed to take a break from this thread and trying to convince you of things (about B) that are so obvious to me, and I believe to any outside observer, but not to you unfortunately.” Yes, I understand. I just don’t like the idea of making claims without proper evidence even if the reasoning is valid.

    “It saddens me that after more than 150 posts that we’ve exchanged, and you knowing that she was lying to you, hiding important things from you, and falsely accusing you – you still choose to trust her word.” I am not choosing to trust her word, I am just giving her the benefit of doubt in certain things that does not have a lot of evidence. It doesn’t affect my decision to never return to her.

    “If she felt crucified, it means she felt harshly judged and condemned for her actions. And this means she wasn’t fine at all with doing what you told her to do, i.e. with your expectations and limitations. On the contrary, she felt crucified by them.” Ok fine, I can’t argue with that. She never actively expressed it directly to me so it never came across to me.

    “And you will enter the next relationship with the same false belief that women are dumb and need to be educated – which won’t lead to happiness either.” I understand the point you are trying to make, but I definitely am not under the belief that women are dumb and need to be educated. Maybe a little dramatic and a pain in my bottom rn but not dumb. I just thought B was dumb cause of the lack of guidance she had received as well as how her decisions lacked common sense. But I understand your point. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

    Paradoxy

    #433028
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    It doesn’t affect my decision to never return to her.

    That’s good to hear.

    Ok fine, I can’t argue with that. She never actively expressed it directly to me so it never came across to me.

    Glad there is at least one thing you cannot argue with 😉 Yes, she expressed her disapproval indirectly, by acting in a passive aggressive way.

    So I have decided to sell the laptop to her and she has started paying me back in installments.

    That’s another thing I am glad to hear.

    We entered the investment knowing the risks, so she didn’t force me into it. I needed a passive source of income because I can’t work when I have to handle the workload from med.

    She didn’t force you into it, but you went for it because of her: because you used up all your savings to pay for her upkeep. So you needed the extra money. And she convinced you to try trading.

    And yes she convinced me to invest in trading, and it partially worked. We made a profit of 600 dollars with the initial investment, but the guy we hired chose to party instead of focusing on the trading and so he lost all the money and we went right back to square one.

    So it wasn’t a professional broker, but some guy she found? And he didn’t bear any responsibility for losing your money?

    I definitely am not under the belief that women are dumb and need to be educated. Maybe a little dramatic and a pain in my bottom rn but not dumb.

    Don’t underestimate the influence your father had on you and forming your beliefs. What he put you through was indoctrination, and it left its traces (just think of being forced to sit with the adults at 5 years old, listening to their “wisdom”,  instead of being allowed to play).

    I just thought B was dumb cause of the lack of guidance she had received as well as how her decisions lacked common sense

    Her decisions lacked common sense, but as I said before, many decisions, both destructive and self-destructive, don’t make sense. They are very bad decisions. And yet people do them, unfortunately.

    But I understand your point. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

    You are welcome. Yesterday I came across an article about gaslighting, and was amazed to see that it describes almost to the tee the tactics used by B:

    Denial – The abuser denies events or experiences that the victim knows to be true, causing the victim to doubt their memory or perception.

    Minimization – The abuser downplays the significance of the victim’s feelings or experiences, making them feel like their emotions are unwarranted or invalid.

    Projection – The abuser attributes their behaviors or feelings to the victim, making the victim question their intentions or actions.

    Blame shifting – The abuser puts the blame on the victim for the problems in the relationship or other circumstances, making the victim feel responsible for the abuser’s actions.

    Withholding – The abuser withholds information, affection, or communication, leaving the victim feeling confused and anxious.

    Diverting – The abuser changes the subject or distracts the victim from important issues or concerns, making it challenging to address the real problems.

    False allegations – starting gossip about the victim in an effort to reduce their social credibility.

    I think she used all of the above, except maybe diverting, although not sure about that.

    Anyway, all these are apparently gaslighting tactics, and she used them regularly on you. No wonder you were super confused whether you should forgive her. Because she was constantly denying your reality, telling you that what she is doing is not hurtful, invalidating your feelings, telling you you are overreacting. Plus shifting the blame on you, falsely accusing you, even making false allegations about you to her female friend. And of course, withholding key information from you.

    All in all, very abusive. I hope you can learn from this and heal.

     

    #433036
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “She didn’t force you into it, but you went for it because of her: because you used up all your savings to pay for her upkeep. So you needed the extra money. And she convinced you to try trading.” Right… but she didn’t actually manipulate me into try trading though… She introduced trading to me, and she suggested that we start trading and because I’ve always wanted to make some money by working or something while in college, I agreed to her suggestion to see how far it would get.

    “So it wasn’t a professional broker, but some guy she found? And he didn’t bear any responsibility for losing your money?” It was as professional as we could find. The guy has a lot of persons financing his trading and he has been relatively successful, but yeah, the guy is a pain: he refuses to take responsibility for losing the money cause “trading is a very risky investment and it has ups and downs which we cannot control” and then we just stopped working with him and started saving again to try out other trading groups.

    “Don’t underestimate the influence your father had on you and forming your beliefs. What he put you through was indoctrination, and it left its traces (just think of being forced to sit with the adults at 5 years old, listening to their “wisdom”,  instead of being allowed to play).”  Oh trust me when I say this, my father’s beliefs do not control me, they have just made me aware and more cautious. They ended up being right about B and so I will respect their beliefs, but I am still going to do my own thing, based on my own evaluation. I will not allow their opinion/judgment to cloud my own. I will still acknowledge their beliefs and consider it in various situations, but the final decision will be mine alone.

    “Yesterday I came across an article about gaslighting, and was amazed to see that it describes almost to the tee the tactics used by B” Thank you. I will come back to this whenever I feel like someone is gaslighting me. I will learn from my mistake.

    Paradoxy

    #433061
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    the guy is a pain: he refuses to take responsibility for losing the money cause “trading is a very risky investment and it has ups and downs which we cannot control”

    That’s true, but you said you lost money because the guy wasn’t really doing his job but went partying (the guy we hired chose to party instead of focusing on the trading). So that doesn’t belong to the normal risk of trading. How do you even know he was partying instead of watching what’s going on on the markets?

    then we just stopped working with him and started saving again to try out other trading groups.

    Has that brought any success? Have you earned anything?

    Oh trust me when I say this, my father’s beliefs do not control me, they have just made me aware and more cautious. They ended up being right about B and so I will respect their beliefs,

    That’s actually the paradox: in spite of all his warnings and (I’d still say) indoctrination about women, you still managed to fall for the kind of girl he was warning you about. So that’s something to consider. So either you need more education and basically following your father’s instructions about whom to marry (light skinned girl, preferably from your religious/ethnic community). Or you need something else?

    Thank you. I will come back to this whenever I feel like someone is gaslighting me. I will learn from my mistake.

    You are welcome. I would consider that each time you complain about something, and your father says to suck it up and be a man, that’s gaslighting too. Because he is invalidating your feelings and your reality.

     

    #433075
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “That’s true, but you said you lost money because the guy wasn’t really doing his job but went partying (the guy we hired chose to party instead of focusing on the trading). So that doesn’t belong to the normal risk of trading. How do you even know he was partying instead of watching what’s going on on the markets?” We can’t actually point out that he was partying and stuff instead of focusing on trading since we don’t know if the failed trading correlates with the partying. What we do know is that it was his birthday month and he had been posting pictures of himself at various parties and with different women throughout the entire month, but only B knows the details. But like I said, we can’t call him out for partying.

    “Has that brought any success? Have you earned anything?” Nope, the second guy just simply scammed us entirely. But since both of these guys were introduced to me by B, it would be reasonable for me to assume that she has poor evaluation skills, since she trusted them too easily. But besides that, she has promised to return the money that I lost in the investment, not sure if I can trust it but we will see.

    “You still managed to fall for the kind of girl he was warning you about.” I fell for her because I didn’t want to be controlled by my parents’ stereotypes about women and I didn’t want to fall under their indoctrination. I believed that B was the exception and believed that she would prove my parents wrong. But obviously I learnt my lesson.

    “So either you need more education and basically following your father’s instructions about whom to marry (light skinned girl, preferably from your religious/ethnic community). Or you need something else?” Not sure, I really don’t want to follow my parents’ instructions. I don’t want arranged marriage but at the rate things are going, I am starting to think arranged marriage might be the safest option. But I really don’t want that. I don’t want a loveless marriage. I don’t want a relationship where we are loving each other for the sake of the children and our parents. I don’t want the person to love me because they have to. I want them to want to love me. But at the same time, it considerably reduces the chances of breaking up/divorce. All I can do is trust in God and hope he has a plan for me.

    My father was not feeling well yesterday, and I didn’t ask him if he was ok cause I thought it was the usual tiredness from his work since he is an engineer, besides me caring for him might actually end up biting me back in the form of more criticism or something. My mom was infuriated by me “not caring” and started lecturing me that I should be more caring and stuff and how she always cared about me whenever I looked upset. BULLSHIT. Forgive my language but she probably asked once or twice or thrice at most, and that too after I started Med. Nobody cared during all those years that I suffered. Nobody noticed the pain I was going through when I found out about my ex cheating on me, and now she tries to say she always noticed whenever I was unhappy and that she cared about how I felt? I felt the urge to blurt out these thoughts to her but I changed my mind cause if I open my mouth once, they will force me to open up about my issues and then go right back to criticizing me and etc. It is much easier for me to just say ok and move on. But it is the audacity that pisses me off.

    I really think that I am an idiot ngl, cause I think I am starting to have an infatuation for the girl that inspired me to make the song, the song that my ex was pissed about and accused me of cheating on her. But because I am aware of how stupid it is, I don’t think I will pursue it. Maybe the infatuation is a result of my heart searching for a rebound cause of the breakup. My ex had accused me of detaching from her after I found out what happened in January. I had denied it when I was having the argument with her cause I knew that I really wanted to find a way to love her again despite the betrayal but it was difficult cause I was disgusted by what B did, but now that I know that I am infatuated with the girl that inspired the song, I am starting to think that maybe I started detaching subconsciously after I found out about her cheating. At any rate, I don’t plan to do anything regarding the infatuation cause I know it is probably my own heart manipulating me, but do you think I should act on it if the infatuation lasts for a year or two? Does it mean the infatuation is based on real feelings and not my own manipulation?

    Maybe I didn’t learn my lesson after all….. Why are emotions and hormones so hard to control? Pain in my ass I swear.

    Paradoxy

    #433094
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    I am sorry for the way I am…..

    #433099
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    My mom was infuriated by me “not caring” and started lecturing me that I should be more caring and stuff and how she always cared about me whenever I looked upset. BULLSHIT. Forgive my language but she probably asked once or twice or thrice at most, and that too after I started Med. Nobody cared during all those years that I suffered. Nobody noticed the pain I was going through when I found out about my ex cheating on me, and now she tries to say she always noticed whenever I was unhappy and that she cared about how I felt?

    So your mother is gaslighting you too: telling you that she would always ask how you are and would notice if something is troubling you. Whereas you know it’s not true, and besides, if you were honest with her (or your father), they would use it against you and start criticizing you:

    if I open my mouth once, they will force me to open up about my issues and then go right back to criticizing me and etc.

    I know about that, btw, because my own mother used to do that: if I would complain about something, being emotionally vulnerable with her, she would use it against me and start blaming and criticizing me. So after a while I learned to never share my troubles with her, because there will be a backlash. I never felt I could confide in her.

    So anyway, your mother was never too caring or empathic, quite the contrary, but now she is claiming that she was. Which is gaslighting. And she is blaming you for not showing more compassion for your father, when you know how that went in the past:

    me caring for him might actually end up biting me back in the form of more criticism or something.

    When you interact with your parents, you are in a self-protective mode, because whenever you open up, it might cause trouble and you might get blamed. You behave like that because you are forced to: years of experience with them have taught you to express your troubles only minimally, or else you’ll get in an even bigger trouble. Also, your father taught you that when you have an issue, to suck it up and be a man. So he wasn’t really welcoming vulnerability. On the contrary.

    And so now, when he is supposedly weak, you are expected to show care and concern? When you were punished, or perhaps even ridiculed, for expressing care and concern in the past.

    So yeah… this is how our parents shape us: first they condition us to live in a self-protective mode, not daring to express our true self. And when that self-protective persona proves to be faulty and inadequate, they blame us for it.

    I am sorry for the way I am…..

    You were shaped to be that way… by your parents’ conditioning. I hope you can start seeing that?

     

    #433184
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “So anyway, your mother was never too caring or empathic, quite the contrary, but now she is claiming that she was. Which is gaslighting.” The thing is that she was caring regarding the physical aspect. She noticed when I was tired, she noticed when I was sleep deprived, she saw how weak I looked from days I went without eating to focus on studying while I was in college, but she never saw my emotional and mental health deteriorating. I don’t blame her though but the audacity to say that she noticed whenever I was unwell is just pissing me off. She is not gaslighting because she did care for me regarding the physical aspect but failed in the emotional and mental aspect.

    “Also, your father taught you that when you have an issue, to suck it up and be a man. So he wasn’t really welcoming vulnerability.” My father also sucks up his own problems. He has all kinds of body pains: back pain, neck pain, leg pain etc. But he never actively complained about his pain. He will still wake up at 5 am and get ready and go to work out under the hot sun until 5-8pm. So compared to that, I would sound weak and pathetic compared to how much he is enduring for the entire family. So basically, in their eyes, nothing of my issues are worth me complaining about.

    “You were shaped to be that way… by your parents’ conditioning. I hope you can start seeing that?” Yes I see that but I also realized that my parents are right about me being an idiot. For example, yesterday the battery for the car ran out of charge, so I had to jumpstart the car by connecting the battery to another car battery. I got the battery and managed to jumpstart the car, and then I packed up everything, but my dumbass self turned off the car’s engine. So I had to get the equipment again and jumpstart the vehicle again. This just shows how careless I was, and I had to just stand there and take it when my father called me absent-minded and etc. So technically my parents were right about me being an idiot. So now what? Can’t really say that my parents are wrong about me now….

    Paradoxy

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