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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • This topic has 222 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks ago by Tee.
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  • #433196
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    She is not gaslighting because she did care for me regarding the physical aspect but failed in the emotional and mental aspect.

    Well, she said she always noticed when you felt upset:

    My mom… started lecturing me that I should be more caring and stuff and how she always cared about me whenever I looked upset.

    Upset is not the same as feeling tired, sleep deprived, or undernourished:

    she was caring regarding the physical aspect. She noticed when I was tired, she noticed when I was sleep deprived, she saw how weak I looked from days I went without eating to focus on studying while I was in college,

    Since she is claiming she would notice your upset – which is not a physical, but an emotional  state – she is indeed gaslighting you. Besides, she told you that you humiliated them when she learned about your suicide attempt. That’s how emotionally “supportive” and “tuned in” she was.

    I don’t blame her though but the audacity to say that she noticed whenever I was unwell is just pissing me off.

    Well, sure, you don’t blame them for anything. Even if they’ve hurt you. And they’ve hurt you in two ways: first, when they didn’t notice anything beyond your physical health, and second, when they claimed they cared for you, even if they didn’t care about your emotional health one bit. So, first they’ve hurt you, then they claimed they didn’t. That’s a definition of gaslighting.

    My father also sucks up his own problems.

    So basically, in their eyes, nothing of my issues are worth me complaining about.

    Sure, because in their eyes, only physical issues and illnesses are worth complaining about. And since you are still young and healthy, why indeed would you complain about a single thing? You must be an idiot if you do (says your father).

    Yes I see that but I also realized that my parents are right about me being an idiot.

    First, you are not an idiot for sometimes being absent-minded, or forgetting something, or making a mistake. You are simply human who is making mistakes, like other humans. But when they raise you with a belief that you are an idiot, that that’s your identity, i.e. that something is fundamentally wrong with you – that’s what’s horribly damaging. And they raised you like that.

    That’s what you believe about yourself: that something is fundamentally wrong with you. And that’s what all children (and later adults) who were emotionally abused believe about themselves. Until they start healing and reverting those damaging core beliefs.

    So technically my parents were right about me being an idiot. So now what? Can’t really say that my parents are wrong about me now….

    You are not an idiot –  not now, not before. You make mistakes, like we all do. But you, Paradoxy, don’t want to accept it: you fell for their false view of you: that you are an idiot. That you are not good enough. You fell for that false identity. In other words, you accepted a lie.

    Yesterday I came across these verses, which I think describe very well what happened to you (and to me too, until I’ve started healing):

    Don’t break a bird’s wings and then tell it to fly.

    Don’t break a heart and then tell it to love.

    Don’t break a soul and then tell it to be happy.

    Author: Najwa Zebian, from her book “Mind Platter”

     

    #433413
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Sorry I definitely didn’t see any update on the post.

    “Well, she said she always noticed when you felt upset” The key word is “looked” so she mainly saw the physical aspect, and just generalized the feeling.

    “Since she is claiming she would notice your upset – which is not a physical, but an emotional  state – she is indeed gaslighting you. Besides, she told you that you humiliated them when she learned about your suicide attempt. That’s how emotionally “supportive” and “tuned in” she was.” Yea I know, that is why I got really riled up by her comment.

    “Sure, because in their eyes, only physical issues and illnesses are worth complaining about. And since you are still young and healthy, why indeed would you complain about a single thing? You must be an idiot if you do (says your father).” Precisely.

    “That’s what you believe about yourself: that something is fundamentally wrong with you. And that’s what all children (and later adults) who were emotionally abused believe about themselves. Until they start healing and reverting those damaging core beliefs.” I honestly don’t know anymore. Last night I found out that my guy best friend just hit on my ex, behind my back, going far enough to tell her not to tell me. Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Despite all the things I told him about her. Lol. Then my ex proceeded with more insults. Telling me that every girl that rejected me dodged a bullet lol. Telling me that I am unlovable and etc. I don’t know anymore. To fight back I started insulting her too. But idk, I was never good at a verbal battle.

    “But you, Paradoxy, don’t want to accept it: you fell for their false view of you: that you are an idiot. That you are not good enough. You fell for that false identity. In other words, you accepted a lie.” Can’t seem to fight the feeling that maybe…. just maybe…. people are actually better off without me.

    “Don’t break a bird’s wings and then tell it to fly.

    Don’t break a heart and then tell it to love.

    Don’t break a soul and then tell it to be happy.” 

    I am all of the above at this point lol.

    Paradoxy

    #433465
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I honestly don’t know anymore. Last night I found out that my guy best friend just hit on my ex, behind my back, going far enough to tell her not to tell me. Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Despite all the things I told him about her. Lol.

    Oh wow! A faithful friend he is… And how did you find out? From B?

    Then my ex proceeded with more insults. Telling me that every girl that rejected me dodged a bullet lol. Telling me that I am unlovable and etc. I don’t know anymore. To fight back I started insulting her too. But idk, I was never good at a verbal battle.

    You know, I’ve been suspecting for a while that B is narcissistic. I first started suspecting when I read her letter. The style was pretty much that of a narcissist, the covert (so-called vulnerable) type. So someone who is super selfish and manipulative, and yet playing a victim.

    Recently I’ve been watching some youtube videos on narcissism by a famous clinical psychologist and expert in narcissism, Dr Ramani Durvasula (the channel’s name: DoctorRamani). And let me give you the titles of some of those videos:

    When narcissists harm you and then expect a hug

    When a narcissist promises to change

    What does it mean when a narcissist says “I’m sorry”

    Narcissist defensiveness vs. REAL apology

    Why do you always need to repeat yourself to narcissists

    B did all of the above: expected you to keep behaving as if nothing happened (and have sex with her) when she told you she prostituted herself, she kept promising to change and never did, she kept giving you fake apologies, she kept “forgetting” things (and you needed to repeat yourself over and over again). And of course, she was lying to you, falsely accusing you and gaslighting you, the latter being the signature of a narcissistic person.

    If I am right, Paradoxy, then you had it thousand times worse than in a normal relationship. Because a relationship with a narcissist is pure hell. And has the ability to ruin the person. So no wonder you feel broken: broken wings, broken heart, broken soul.

    But I have to ask you something: even if you agree with me, please please please don’t tell B that she is a narcissist. Because it will backfire. A narcissist cannot be defeated by telling them the truth about themselves – a narcissist will always turn things against you. And you’ve already experienced it with her:

    I was never good at a verbal battle.

    Precisely. You cannot win an argument with a narcissist.

    Can’t seem to fight the feeling that maybe…. just maybe…. people are actually better off without me.

    She made you believe that. Unfortunately, she “confirmed” what you already believed about yourself before, due to your upbringing. But she is a broken mirror, Paradoxy. She is one big lie. Whatever she tells you about yourself is a lie. Toxic. Poison.

    Perhaps you want to peak into one of those videos that I mentioned above. I think you’d recognize B very easily…

     

    #433517
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “Oh wow! A faithful friend he is… And how did you find out? From B?” 
    Got screenshots of their conversation on Instagram, but honestly don’t know who to trust anymore. The amount of anger that I have boiling inside me makes me want to break him, but I made a promise to his mother to keep him safe. So now I have to walk around with more anger and hate in my heart, while pretending to be good friends with him.

    Already called B out for being a narcissist a while back, but that argument didn’t go anywhere. She is just too stubborn. I am here trying my best to stay calm and understanding and she just pushes all the wrong buttons. And then I burst when I couldn’t handle her disrespect and I started being verbal abusive to her when she crossed the line with her disrespect. I tolerate insults toward me but don’t expect me to stay calm if she starts insulting my parents, and I fell right into her trap: she now says I am the one who didn’t change and that she was the one who had to put up with my verbal abuse.

    “Perhaps you want to peak into one of those videos that I mentioned above. I think you’d recognize B very easily…” Even if I watched those videos and identified B as a narcissist, I still have to put up with her until I get my money back. I have to endure whatever she throws at me, because all of this could be an act to pressure me into just cutting ties with her entirely, which would mean I won’t get my money back.

    #433531
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Got screenshots of their conversation on Instagram

    She sent it to you? When is the conversation between the two of them dated?

    but honestly don’t know who to trust anymore.

    Definitely not her. She is known for seductive behavior, sexting and other stuff. And lying. I wouldn’t be surprised if she flirted with your friend too.

    Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Basically, he was interested in her from the beginning. Despite all the things I told him about her.

    A sexy, enticing girl, who enjoys men’s attention, is interesting to a lot of  men… He might think she is hot. There is no crime in that. But he didn’t start anything with her until after you two broke up. If it is even true that he started hitting on her. Perhaps she was being seductive with him… BTW if he really wants to pursue her, in spite of everything you told him about her, well good luck, he’ll have to learn his lesson the hard way.

    The amount of anger that I have boiling inside me makes me want to break him, but I made a promise to his mother to keep him safe.

    Please don’t harm him. You need to control the physical expression of your anger, even if you feel anger inside.

    So now I have to walk around with more anger and hate in my heart, while pretending to be good friends with him.

    Have you talked to him about her allegations (that he was hitting on her)?

    Already called B out for being a narcissist a while back, but that argument didn’t go anywhere. She is just too stubborn.

    Yeah, narcissists are like that… and if you call them out, they’ll accuse you right back – that you are a narcissist. Has she done that?

    I am here trying my best to stay calm and understanding and she just pushes all the wrong buttons.

    What do you need to understand? Has she started repaying your laptop, or she is still finding excuses to delay it?

    And then I burst when I couldn’t handle her disrespect and I started being verbal abusive to her when she crossed the line with her disrespect. I tolerate insults toward me but don’t expect me to stay calm if she starts insulting my parents, and I fell right into her trap: she now says I am the one who didn’t change and that she was the one who had to put up with my verbal abuse.

    Are you still caught in a conflict with her, with arguments, mutual accusations, insults, things like that?

    Even if I watched those videos and identified B as a narcissist, I still have to put up with her until I get my money back.

    And has she started repaying? Because if not, then your ongoing conflict is just a smokescreen, which uses to justify her defiance and her refusal to give you back your money. She might want to keep you in this state of anger, frustration and conflict for months and years. Without delivering what she’s promised.

     

    #433532
    Tee
    Participant

    * A slight correction:

    Because if not, then your ongoing conflict is just a smokescreen, which she uses to justify her defiance and her refusal to give you back your money.

    #433533
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The amount of anger that I have boiling inside me makes me want to break him, but I made a promise to his mother to keep him safe.

    A boxing bag might be a good idea – a safe way to physically express anger without hurting anybody…

    #433606
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “She sent it to you? When is the conversation between the two of them dated?” Yes, she sent it, and the conversation occurred on June 4th.

    “I wouldn’t be surprised if she flirted with your friend too.” She sent the full conversation, which includes her response to him, and there was no flirting.

    “BTW if he really wants to pursue her, in spite of everything you told him about her, well good luck, he’ll have to learn his lesson the hard way.” The guy said “Everyone’s interactions with people are unique and different. It might not be the same for us.” Basically he thinks that he will have a different/better experience with her than me ig.

    “You need to control the physical expression of your anger, even if you feel anger inside.” Yeah it is under control rn, idk about when I see him, but rn it is under control. I am teaching myself acceptance. To accept the way life is and just move on and not let it affect me.

    “Have you talked to him about her allegations (that he was hitting on her)?” Nope, he specifically told her not to tell me, and B requested that I not tell him that she told me. So I am just going to stay silent and see what happens. Based on the response B gave, he might not try it again, but if he does, ig we will see.

    “Yeah, narcissists are like that… and if you call them out, they’ll accuse you right back – that you are a narcissist. Has she done that?” Yep, she has. Her lack of listening and other behaviors are why I call her a brick wall, cause nothing I say gets into her head.

    “What do you need to understand? Has she started repaying your laptop, or she is still finding excuses to delay it?” I don’t need to understand. I am just trying to respect her by listening to her and make her feel understood so that she may give the mutual respect for me and actually listen to me as well. I know it is stupid but I am working on improving myself by teaching myself to be more understanding. She is showing signs of planning to delay the payment but I am not in Jamaica yet so we will see once I get back.

    “Are you still caught in a conflict with her, with arguments, mutual accusations, insults, things like that?” We barely talk, but when we do, it ends up in a fight. After all, I have to maintain contact with her so I can get my money back. Besides that fight happened after she showed me the evidence with my guy friend. And though I didn’t say she seduced him or flirted with him, I told her that she probably made him feel too comfortable, which made him want to say the things he said. Besides, she had been posting her modeling pictures on her status too so I am not amazed he got intrigued.

    “Because if not, then your ongoing conflict is just a smokescreen, which she uses to justify her defiance and her refusal to give you back your money.” Could be. She paid me once, but it will probably take another 8-9 months before she can completely pay me back. Now she is telling me she started attending trading class and etc so she need the money for that. I am going to see what happens when I get back to college.

    “A boxing bag might be a good idea – a safe way to physically express anger without hurting anybody…” Yeah lol I was thinking about a punching bag too, I am probably going to find one and use it when I get time. But my anger is very controlled rn, but it might burst when I see him, so idk. We will see.

    Paradoxy

     

    #433683
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The guy said “Everyone’s interactions with people are unique and different. It might not be the same for us.” Basically he thinks that he will have a different/better experience with her than me ig.

    Your guy friend told you this? Or he said it to her in their conversation (of which she sent you the screenshots)?

    Their conversation happened on June 4, almost 3 months after you split up. So you can’t blame him. But he is in for a rough ride, if she indeed starts dating him.

    Nope, he specifically told her not to tell me, and B requested that I not tell him that she told me. So I am just going to stay silent and see what happens.

    It’s a typical narcissistic tactic – to make people keep secrets while they (the narcissist) makes up lies and intrigues behind their back. And pit friend against friend.

    If I were you, I would speak with him. I wouldn’t respect the narcissist’s plea for secrecy, because it damages the victims. And now both of you (you and your guy friend) are her victims.

    Based on the response B gave, he might not try it again, but if he does, ig we will see.

    So she told him off? Refused his advances? (at least in the part of the conversation that she you let you see)? BTW I guess screenshots can be photoshopped too, so beware. I wouldn’t trust anything she sends – everything can be manipulated. That’s why it would be good to talk to your friend.

    Yep, she has. Her lack of listening and other behaviors are why I call her a brick wall, cause nothing I say gets into her head.

    Alright, it all makes sense now. Of course a narcissist would be a brick wall. They simply refuse to hear what they don’t want to hear.

    She is showing signs of planning to delay the payment but I am not in Jamaica yet so we will see once I get back.

    She paid me once, but it will probably take another 8-9 months before she can completely pay me back. Now she is telling me she started attending trading class and etc so she need the money for that.

    Well at least she paid you once. But the delay tactics is in place, as I thought. Honestly, I don’t think it’s worth to keep talking to her (and getting into fights) for the next at least 8-9 months till you get the next batch of your money.

    As a narcissist, she enjoys torturing you, sending you stuff that provoke you (like the convo between her and your friend), and pushing your buttons. Narcissists thrive on that. The bigger your reaction, the more powerful they feel. So my guess is that she is going to keep delaying the payment, and have you depend on her and her whims for as long as possible.

    And though I didn’t say she seduced him or flirted with him, I told her that she probably made him feel too comfortable, which made him want to say the things he said. Besides, she had been posting her modeling pictures on her status too so I am not amazed he got intrigued.

    I think you are right, and I am glad that you see it.

    I don’t need to understand. I am just trying to respect her by listening to her and make her feel understood so that she may give the mutual respect for me and actually listen to me as well

    Dear Paradoxy – you’re expecting respect and understanding from a narcissist? Unfortunately, that’s something you’ll never get…

    I know it is stupid but I am working on improving myself by teaching myself to be more understanding.

    You don’t need to be more understanding with a narcissist… You’ve already gave her plenty of leeway, and she is just using it to manipulate you further.

    Yeah lol I was thinking about a punching bag too, I am probably going to find one and use it when I get time. But my anger is very controlled rn, but it might burst when I see him, so idk. We will see.

    He is not the main person to be angry at… But in any case, even a pillow is a good strategy – if you don’t have a punching bag.

     

    #433738
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “Your guy friend told you this? Or he said it to her in their conversation (of which she sent you the screenshots)?” He said it to her.

    “Their conversation happened on June 4, almost 3 months after you split up. So you can’t blame him.” Yes, but his behavior shows that maybe he was interested in her from the beginning. Maybe that is why he did the stuff he did the previous times we fought. He may have made his move now but saying that he would have wanted to get to know her if I didn’t exist means he was interested in her even while I was dating her.

    “If I were you, I would speak with him. I wouldn’t respect the narcissist’s plea for secrecy, because it damages the victims. And now both of you (you and your guy friend) are her victims.” Um how is he a victim? He made the move first. He messaged her first. She just didn’t want me telling him that she told me the truth, especially after he told her not to tell me.

    “So she told him off? Refused his advances? (at least in the part of the conversation that she you let you see)?” Yes, the screenshots were in continuation so less manipulation. Though the photoshopping could be a possibility, I dont have any means of confirming it.

    “Well at least she paid you once. But the delay tactics is in place, as I thought.” Well I did see her bank statement and she only has around 60$ so I wouldn’t push it away as a tactic. Besides the amount she owe is too large for me to ignore, I need the money to get a new laptop for school purposes.

    “Dear Paradoxy – you’re expecting respect and understanding from a narcissist? Unfortunately, that’s something you’ll never get…” I know I might never get it, but I still wanted to try. Just maybe. Just maybe she might stop being the way she is, even if it is 0.00001%.

    “He is not the main person to be angry at… “ Still had the audacity to do the things he did. At least show me some respect instead of trying to do things behind my back. Now I can’t trust his ass with anything. I can’t trust him if I were to fall in love again. I can’t trust him to have my back.

    Paradoxy

    #433752
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Yes, but his behavior shows that maybe he was interested in her from the beginning.

    Possibly. She is sexy and seductive. As I said, many men are interested in such women.

    Maybe that is why he did the stuff he did the previous times we fought. He may have made his move now but saying that he would have wanted to get to know her if I didn’t exist means he was interested in her even while I was dating her.

    So in their June 4 conversation, he told her he would have wanted to get to know her (like from the moment he met her), if you weren’t his friend? If so, at least he respected the fact that you are his friend. But really, if he was attracted to her, what should have he done? Certainly not admit it to you, since that would have been even worse for everyone.

    But I agree, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth to have your best friend being interested in your ex. Still, you can’t forbid him to be attracted to her, and now even to make a move. Still, I’d talk to him about it, because I am sure she is not telling you the whole story.

    Um how is he a victim? He made the move first. He messaged her first. She just didn’t want me telling him that she told me the truth, especially after he told her not to tell me.

    Well, she already went behind his back and told you about it – which he asked her not to. And they’ve communicated in the past too, it’s not like this was their first conversation. So there might have been an exchange between them, which you’re not aware of. And she seems like a girl who is flirty in general, so why wouldn’t she be with him too.

    In any case, I think she could hardly wait to tell this to you, and to start pitting you and your friend against each other. She might have been telling him lies about you, same as she painted you as a psycho to one of her girlfriends, by omitting some important details.

    So if she told him her version of the story (filled with lies), he might have started seeing her in a different light, and trusting her, and seeing her as a victim… So who knows what preceded that message of his, where he started hitting on her.

    Though the photoshopping could be a possibility, I dont have any means of confirming it.

    Unless you talk to your friend… and find out what he has to say, rather than trusting her (a proven liar) on her word.

    Well I did see her bank statement and she only has around 60$ so I wouldn’t push it away as a tactic.

    Well, she clearly likes to spend money (including your money)… that’s why she has almost nothing on her bank account. It’s not like she is trying hard to save up, so she can repay you. On the contrary, she is spending on herself, e.g. now she has enrolled a trading class. BTW is it to become a broker?

    I know I might never get it, but I still wanted to try. Just maybe. Just maybe she might stop being the way she is, even if it is 0.00001%.

    Good luck with that, Paradoxy. Because the chance is 0%. Zero. Nada. Your attempts are futile. It’s like going to the snake and expecting not to be bitten.

    But it’s your choice. You know how she makes you feel. You know the kind of things she is telling you:

    my ex proceeded with more insults. Telling me that every girl that rejected me dodged a bullet lol. Telling me that I am unlovable.

    She owes you quite a lot of money, but she has the audacity to insult you and lecture you. And you are taking it all in, believing her, feeling worse after each conversation, feeling broken. But still, going for more, trying to convince her that you are a good person after all, hoping that she would see it, hoping that she would change….

    I am sorry that you are allowing her to abuse you, time and again. I am sorry that you don’t realize that she is exploiting you and ruining you even more. And that she won’t change, even if she is promising things. Narcissistic people are known for that: false promises. Future faking. Giving you hope, promising that things will be different. But nothing. Ever. Changes.

    She might even lure you back into a relationship. Beware of that.

     

    #433774
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “So in their June 4 conversation, he told her he would have wanted to get to know her (like from the moment he met her), if you weren’t his friend? If so, at least he respected the fact that you are his friend. But really, if he was attracted to her, what should have he done? Certainly not admit it to you, since that would have been even worse for everyone.” Yes he told her that if I was not his friend, he would have wanted to get to know her. Sure u could say he respected me. But at the same time, I’ve known this dude for years. This dude is casually sleeping with multiple women, and I have a feeling he only sees B as a sexually object too. Idk. But if he was attracted to her, he should not have made a move at all (especially after telling him what kind of person she is) cause how can he come tell me that I deserve better and she is not the right person and all that stuff but the next moment he is showing interest in her? He should not have been trying to screw us up from behind my back in the first place. If he wanted to make a move, he should have expressed his interest after B and I had settled everything since our break up, instead of trying to push us toward the break up. He can’t be saying B is cruel and narcissistic and etc and then the next day you find him dating her. Now I can’t trust him if I were to have another gf in the future.

    “Still, you can’t forbid him to be attracted to her, and now even to make a move.” Yes I get that, but at least wait for us to settle things between her so I can stop caring completely, because he knows that she owes me money, and he couldn’t wait? I would understand maintaining friendship with her but making an actual move on her???? Of course it will leave a bad taste in my mouth with the way he went about it.

    “Well, she already went behind his back and told you about it – which he asked her not to. And they’ve communicated in the past too, it’s not like this was their first conversation. So there might have been an exchange between them, which you’re not aware of. And she seems like a girl who is flirty in general, so why wouldn’t she be with him too.” Maybe, but its not enough to call him a victim, because he still knowingly hammered the wedge that was already placed between us and then he made a move behind my back.

    “In any case, I think she could hardly wait to tell this to you, and to start pitting you and your friend against each other.” Eh, she told me to not do anything about it or confront him about it… so how is she pitting us against each other?

    “So if she told him her version of the story (filled with lies), he might have started seeing her in a different light, and trusting her, and seeing her as a victim… So who knows what preceded that message of his, where he started hitting on her.” Could be. But the screenshots indicated that he texted her first regarding her modeling, and then proceeded to make the move. Besides she was constantly blocking and unblocking him anyway since we were fighting so often. But like I said, you could be right. But to be dumb enough to trust a girl who u have known for 2 years but barely interacted with, over a guy who has been with u for 4+ years and you literally live together and do everything together is just insane.

    “Unless you talk to your friend… and find out what he has to say, rather than trusting her (a proven liar) on her word.” He could lie too. What then? Its not like he would show me his chat.

    “It’s not like she is trying hard to save up, so she can repay you. On the contrary, she is spending on herself, e.g. now she has enrolled a trading class. BTW is it to become a broker?” Yeah she doesn’t know how to save money, which is why I am becoming increasingly annoyed cause there is nothing I can actually do to force her to save money. Can’t even call the cops because her roommate is a cop and she is also one of the worst cheaters u could find. And yes she is trying to become a broker to make more money.

    “Good luck with that, Paradoxy. Because the chance is 0%. Zero. Nada. Your attempts are futile. It’s like going to the snake and expecting not to be bitten.”
    😂😂Lol ig u r right.

    “But still, going for more, trying to convince her that you are a good person after all, hoping that she would see it, hoping that she would change….” Thats the thing, I am not going for more. She is coming to me. And I have no choice but to take it cause each call could be a call to say that she has my money ready. I am aware of the foolishness that is going on, but its not like I can block her. I have to just sit here and let her hit my pride and ego and everything and tank it as much as I can. And yeah she is trying to lure me back into a relationship too, but it ain’t working.

    Paradoxy

    #433778
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Yes he told her that if I was not his friend, he would have wanted to get to know her. Sure u could say he respected me.

    Yes, he did.

    This dude is casually sleeping with multiple women, and I have a feeling he only sees B as a sexually object too. Idk.

    In that case he sees her exactly the way she wants to be seen: as a sex object.

    But if he was attracted to her, he should not have made a move at all (especially after telling him what kind of person she is) cause how can he come tell me that I deserve better and she is not the right person and all that stuff but the next moment he is showing interest in her?

    I don’t think it makes sense to comment on this until you know his version of the story. But it might have been something like this: he meets her, think she’s hot. Nothing more. You are his friend and he is there for you when you complain about the relationship. You are fighting a lot, constantly breaking up and reconciling, and he doubts that you’ll ever break up for good. But eventually you do. He is supportive and even offers to accompany you to her place, to pick up your stuff (you say it’s not necessary, but still, it was nice of him).

    When you are at her place, picking up your stuff, she sees the conversation (many months worth of conversation) between you and him, and steals it. Having gone over it, she starts accusing you of various things. She also starts accusing him. He starts defending himself. And that’s how their conversation starts.

    Little by little, she is working her magic and starts painting a different version of what happened between the two of you. Slowly but surely she is manipulating him into believing that you are an a**, while she is innocent. She portrays herself as your victim. He starts thinking that she is not as bad as you portrayed her to be. And indeed, she sounds so sweet and normal with him – no trace of the b**** and the brickwall that you were complaining about.

    They seem to be getting on so well, and then she sends him a few strategic emoticons (a heart, a kiss, maybe even some pursed lips). He is hooked. And he tells her: Everyone’s interactions with people are unique and different. It might not be the same for us.

    I can easily imagine the above scenario.

    He should not have been trying to screw us up from behind my back in the first place. If he wanted to make a move, he should have expressed his interest after B and I had settled everything since our break up, instead of trying to push us toward the break up.

    How did he push you towards the breakup? You were breaking up all the time anyway.

    He can’t be saying B is cruel and narcissistic and etc and then the next day you find him dating her.

    Not exactly the next day. As I said, the scenario I painted above is very possible with a narcissist.

    Yes I get that, but at least wait for us to settle things between her so I can stop caring completely,

    If he waited for you to stop caring completely, he could be waiting a lifetime 😉

    because he knows that she owes me money, and he couldn’t wait?

    She owes you money. At this point you are her creditor, not her boyfriend. It could be a strictly business relationship. But it’s much more than business, at least to you…

    he still knowingly hammered the wedge that was already placed between us and then he made a move behind my back.

    What wedge did he hammer between you and B? How is he responsible for your breakup?

    Eh, she told me to not do anything about it or confront him about it… so how is she pitting us against each other?

    Because she might be lying about half of it…

    But to be dumb enough to trust a girl who u have known for 2 years but barely interacted with, over a guy who has been with u for 4+ years and you literally live together and do everything together is just insane.

    They have been probably interacting in the past 3 months… as I said, his affinity for her (if it really exists) didn’t happen over night.

    Besides, you too trust her rather than him, even if you’ve known her and her antics for almost 2 years.

    He could lie too. What then? Its not like he would show me his chat.

    Well, he might… but you can ask him about this whole thing. Unless you want to keep accusing him without knowing the full story.

    Yeah she doesn’t know how to save money, which is why I am becoming increasingly annoyed cause there is nothing I can actually do to force her to save money. Can’t even call the cops because her roommate is a cop and she is also one of the worst cheaters u could find.

    There is no way to force her to do anything she doesn’t want, Paradoxy. And since you’re not going to take the case to the court, you might as well start accepting the possibility that she’ll never return your money. There will be always something more urgent to spend on.

    its not like I can block her. I have to just sit here and let her hit my pride and ego and everything and tank it as much as I can.

    You don’t have to block her. You can keep it strictly business and ask: “do you have my money? No? Okay, call me when you have it.”

    How about communicating in this way? Your conversations don’t really have to end in a fight – if you learn how to stop being triggered by a narcissist. If you educate yourself. If you decide to stop allowing her to abuse you.

    But I am afraid you’re not at that stage yet, since you’re laughing about repeatedly being bitten by a snake:

    Lol ig u r right.

    It seems you still want to enable her. You still want to stay in this emotionally charged relationship with her, even if it’s draining you and you feel bad afterwards.

    And yeah she is trying to lure me back into a relationship too, but it ain’t working.

    She is a text-book narcissist then. Doing the “hoovering” (if you want to look it up). I strongly suggest you educate yourself on narcissist tactics, because if you don’t, you are going to get hoovered again, Paradoxy. Taking yourself for another cycle. Spin cycle (as I heard someone call narcissistic abuse).

     

    #433817
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Your hypothetical story is possible, but I find it very difficult to believe that level of extremity.

    “How did he push you towards the breakup? You were breaking up all the time anyway.” I am referring to the times when he told B that I could be cheating without her knowing and the time when he fed her with more false information, which made her believe that we were breaking up cause I was cheating instead of breaking up over her cheating.

    “If he waited for you to stop caring completely, he could be waiting a lifetime” Hell no, he knows that I was planning on blocking her entirely once I got my money.

    “At this point you are her creditor, not her boyfriend. It could be a strictly business relationship. But it’s much more than business, at least to you…” Obviously I haven’t been allowed to move on yet cause she keeps calling me once in a while and tells me stuff like to take her to the atm, and I ask her if she would give me my money if I take her there and she says it depends on how much she has on her acc, so I walk her to the atm in the hopes of getting the money, only to find she barely has money. Every time she calls me, I take the call in the hopes of getting my money and she is leading me in circles with that trick.

    “What wedge did he hammer between you and B? How is he responsible for your breakup?” Like I stated earlier, he told B that I could be cheating and another time he told her that I was interested in other girls and checking them out when he knows that is absolute bs, and stuff like that convinced B that the breakup was caused by my cheating instead of her cheating.

    “Because she might be lying about half of it…” Even with the screenshots? The texts sound exactly like how he would behave.

    “Besides, you too trust her rather than him, even if you’ve known her and her antics for almost 2 years.” No, I trust neither of them, but this kind of behavior was to be expected from him. He even broke up with his long distance gf cause he wanted to be sexually satisfied by other women instead of waiting for the girl who actually loved him.

    “Well, he might… but you can ask him about this whole thing. Unless you want to keep accusing him without knowing the full story.” I asked another guy friend for his opinion and he said not to confront him cause it might ruin the friendship and it’s best to just keep my guard up around him.

    ” And since you’re not going to take the case to the court, you might as well start accepting the possibility that she’ll never return your money.” So even if I play it safe, I wont get my money?

    “Your conversations don’t really have to end in a fight – if you learn how to stop being triggered by a narcissist. If you educate yourself. If you decide to stop allowing her to abuse you.” Yes I am working on that now. Teaching myself acceptance.

    “It seems you still want to enable her.” I dont want to enable her, but it feels like i need to in order to get my money. Yk, to deal with a narcissist u gotta feed their ego until they are satisfied enough to stop bothering you.

    Yeah I am working on learning how to deal with a narcissist. Hope it works.

    Paradoxy

    #433837
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Your hypothetical story is possible, but I find it very difficult to believe that level of extremity.

    Well, what is true is that she did start accusing him about something he said in that chat she stole from you. And it is also true that he started defending himself. I can imagine that they continued the conversation, and she told him her version of the story and that she was actually your victim.

    She told you the same in her letter that you’ve shared here. It was a typical narcissistic “oh poor me” narrative, where she kind of acknowledged that prostitution was a bad choice on her part, bur then also accused you of making her prostitute herself. And of “ruining” her in general. So she used the typical “I am the victim/martyr” narrative with you, and I don’t doubt that she told the same story to your friend too, portraying herself as the victim.

    The rest of my hypothetical story might be an exaggeration, but I am pretty sure he warmed up to her in these past 3 months, and didn’t see her as such a bad person any more. That, coupled with the fact that she is hot and is posting her modeling pictures on social media:

    she had been posting her modeling pictures on her status too so I am not amazed he got intrigued

    he texted her first regarding her modeling, and then proceeded to make the move

    and the fact that he likes to sleep around:

    He even broke up with his long distance gf cause he wanted to be sexually satisfied by other women instead of waiting for the girl who actually loved him.

    … all probably contributed to him starting hitting on her.

    So there is a backstory to his move, I am sure. But she of course didn’t share their entire chat history with you, but only the part where he made the move.

    I am referring to the times when he told B that I could be cheating without her knowing and the time when he fed her with more false information, which made her believe that we were breaking up cause I was cheating instead of breaking up over her cheating.

    And are you sorry? In fact that was the only time she broke up with you, thinking you’re with some other girl, when in fact you were in your room, sleeping. But you quickly reconciled after that, so no big harm was done. But what about all the other breakups that you initiated because of her bad behavior? Because of her lying about her ex? Because of her wearing revealing outfits and posting it on social media in spite of promising not to? Because of her prostituting herself?

    All that didn’t endanger your relationship, but that one occasion where she asked your friend if you were cheating (so she came up with the paranoid thought first), and then he decided not to dissuade her – that’s what endangered your relationship?

    Really?

    I asked another guy friend for his opinion and he said not to confront him cause it might ruin the friendship and it’s best to just keep my guard up around him.

    And your friendship is not already ruined? I think it’s never a good idea to play into a narcissist’s game: she telling him lies about you (and him believing, at least partially), and now she almost certainly hiding key pieces of their interaction, and making him seem like the only guilty party and a traitor. While she is pulling the strings.

    Obviously I haven’t been allowed to move on yet cause she keeps calling me once in a while and tells me stuff like to take her to the atm, and I ask her if she would give me my money if I take her there and she says it depends on how much she has on her acc, so I walk her to the atm in the hopes of getting the money, only to find she barely has money. Every time she calls me, I take the call in the hopes of getting my money and she is leading me in circles with that trick.

    Oh so you even have to take her to the ATM? She doesn’t have online banking, so she doesn’t know how much money she has?

    And then once you get to the ATM and she sees her account is almost empty, she sheepishly says “oops, nothing there. Can’t give you back today, sorry”. And that’s it? You’re buying it?

    Every time she calls me, I take the call in the hopes of getting my money and she is leading me in circles with that trick.

    Well actually, she’s making a fool put of you. First, she would know how much roughly she has. I mean, she should know it – before she calls you. The fact that she is dragging you to the ATM and then acts surprised that she doesn’t have the money, and basically stands you up and you go back empty handed, is beyond humiliating.

    And even her nonchalant attitude that she’ll give you if there is enough money there – shows that she prioritizes her own expenses and isn’t even one bit concerned about giving back what is yours. It’s like “first I’ll buy everything I need for myself, and then if there’s something left, I’ll give it to you.” But of course, there is nothing left over – she spends everything on herself.

    But as I said, it’s not just the fact that she is super selfish and entitled, and doesn’t care one bit about paying you back. It’s also her attitude where she is making a clown of you, by making you go to the ATM with her and waiting like a puppy for a treat, and then getting nothing.

    Yes I am working on that now. Teaching myself acceptance.

    Acceptance to be treated like a clown?

    So even if I play it safe, I wont get my money?

    No, with this attitude of hers, and you accepting it and tolerating it – no, you won’t get it.

    I dont want to enable her, but it feels like i need to in order to get my money. Yk, to deal with a narcissist u gotta feed their ego until they are satisfied enough to stop bothering you.

    A narcissist is never satisfied. They can never get enough of narcissistic supply. Which you are proving to her in abundance – both by financing her and by putting up with her sh*tty behavior. You are her perfect source of supply, and she isn’t going to let you go easily.

    Yeah I am working on learning how to deal with a narcissist. Hope it works.

    Unfortunately, you are going about it the wrong way.

     

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