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wouldn’t be a mercy if i just ended my life?

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  • #382461
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear antia, i understand.

    #382462
    Murtaza
    Participant

    But this very thread shows that you’re miserable. And that’s because you have suppressed that little boy.

    So its not about what i have, nor where do i live, no im miserable because of few words i tell myself.

     

    step away from the idea that love is unattainable for you

    Ok i just did, guess what? I still don’t have it, it doesn’t matter how i see my life, its still gonna be the same, i still gonna be so lonely, so distant from everybody, hate fitting in to a Garbage Society

     

    This is it for me, im done, i had what i wanted from this conversation

    #382463
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Murtaza,

    So its not about what i have, nor where do i live, no im miserable because of few words i tell myself.

    You yourself said multiple times that it’s not about the country you live. I do believe the culture you grew up in contributed a lot to your situation, but you said your problem cannot be solved by changing where you live. Although I imagine that if you moved to a different culture, it would be different, easier…

    And it’s not just about the words you tell yourself, it’s about the love you give yourself. But sometimes it’s hard to give love to ourselves because we’re so deprived and lacking. I was like that too. What helped me is to ask for God’s love. God (who in my view isn’t limited to a religion or a scripture) was the first “person” I felt loved me. I begged him to come to my heart and he did. This changed my whole world. It enabled me to love myself and my inner child. It gave me that initial “charge” of love that ignited my ability to love myself.

     

    #382467
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    Your Problem, as you presented it, as simply as I can phrase it, is this: you live in Iraq, you are unemployed with no intention of ever getting a job, you need an irl woman’s love, no way to meet women irl in Iraq, no woman in Iraq will love an unemployed man, and you have no intention to move to another country.

    There is no Solution to this Problem.

    You submit posts about your Problem here, and elsewhere on the internet, I imagine, and you receive responses. There are people, here and there, who are sincerely touched by your pain and desperation, wanting to help you, and so, they suggest that (1) your thinking is wrong and therefore you need to change it, (2) bi-pass/short-cut your need for an irl woman’s love by loving yourself, and/ or by asking god to love you.

    As far as #1 goes, there is some wrong thinking on your part (says I), but also on the part of members replying to you (says I). You are very, very confident that your thinking is right, and your opinion about the thinking of the majority of people (aka “normies”) is very, very low. It sets a very, very.. very  high bar for any member to convince you/ prove to you that your thinking is wrong on any item. Not surprisingly, no member has been able to satisfy your requirement for proof that your thinking is wrong on anything.

    As far as #2 goes: you stated that you don’t believe in god, so god is out for you (as it is for me), and loving oneself cannot possibly provide a lifetime substitute for a person’s need to be loved by a separate person. We are social animals, and just like a dog does not wag its tail unless  he sees another dog, or another person, we too cannot wag our emotional tail for long when we are alone.

    Being very confident, when you communicate with other members who are also very confident- the arguments start: a member (like I did plenty) says gently or harshly: look what you wrote here (quote).. it doesn’t make sense, let me correct your thinking!.. And look what you wrote there (quote), you are wrong, Murtaza, wrong, wrong!

    Murtaza then says: no, you are wrong, you don’t know what you are talking about! And so it goes on and on and on. And what is the point of these arguments- why does Murtaza waste his time this way.. and why do members waste their time this way…?

    Because Murtaza has a lot of time in his days and nights, and he has nothing better/more interesting to do with all that time, and .. neither do I. So, here we are.

    I see the solution you proposed in the title of your thread: ending your own life (“wouldn’t be a mercy”?, you asked). You said that if anyone gives you a rational argument with evidence that you should not end your life- then you won’t. Reasonable, conscientious people don’t want to be given that kind of responsibility, thinking something like: oh, oh, if I don’t give Murtaza a good argument and evidence, his blood is on my hands!  To make it even worse, this is a public forum, anyone can read it: no conscientious person wants this kind of responsibility (yes, says I).

    What are you really getting out of posting: I think that you are getting some excitement here and there, some joy:  sometimes liking online people, other times angry at them, arguing, insulting.. other times being nice, and altogether, it is engaging, it makes time pass more easily, better than doing other things or nothing at all.

    What am I doing here, what is my motivation: like you, I am engaged: learning about human behavior is my passion, and I have no better way or medium to learn than right here on these forums. Do I think that I can help you, really? At times I thought that way, now I highly doubt it, I mean: what are the chances that my words on the screen, words among the thousands that you will be reading today from people all over the world, will make a significant difference to you? And what difference could it possibly be? I think that the answer to this question is most likely: Nothing, really.

    I am imagining a young Murtaza on the other side of the world, reading my words right now, maybe he just had his favorite breakfast leisurely, maybe he will soon go up to the roof with cappuccino and a smoke, maybe he is hearing his younger sister voice in the background, maybe she is arguing with her mother.. the air conditioning is on, you can hear it. Here it is right after 7 am, the birds are chirping, there is a very distant sound of traffic, I can hear the computer’s motor, my coffee is cold and needs to be re-heated.

    You decide, you choose- to reply to me, or not. It is a bit of free choice, or free will, isn’t it: to type or not to type, to argue or not to argue, to answer this one person but not the other.. little choices like these.

    If you choose to reply to me, I am okay with it. if you choose to not reply to me, I am okay with it. In case you do not reply: I will not initiate another post to you and I do wish you well.. with a smile on my face, liking my image of you in my mind, sitting on the other side of my computer screen.

    One more thing before I go: strange thing, to me, that you seem to think/ feel that you are the Only One in Pain, the Only One Stuck.. but then again, that’s how I used to feel. Pain is still reality, the thought of more pain is very scary, and I am still, as always, stuck in a world where people badly hurt people. But I am not alone, there are too many people like me, and there are many in pain who still want to make the world just a bit better, just for today. It feels better to.. not be alone.

    anita

     

     

    #382483
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, thank you for your satisfactory reply

     

    There is no Solution to this Problem

    That’s what i wanted to hear, why go around this and say love yourself or that healing can fix this problem

     

    your thinking is wrong and therefore you need to change it

    Before i answer this, i must say that im not trying to manipulate anything, and im gonna try to be as honest as i can, i do think my thinking is wrong, but by wrong i think its wrong by society standards (which can be beneficial to the person) aka “i must work”, its wrong by almost objective life standards, i say almost because objective life standards is a norime standard, the way we programmed to live, and i know that i won’t be satisfied with that life, imagine its like this, you put a monky in lions cage.

     

    and loving oneself cannot possibly provide a lifetime substitute for a person’s need to be loved by a separate person.

    Why can’t teak just admit that? Why she insists that the problem must come from within me? How about that i live in the wrong place with the wrong values and goals? If you say that i won’t argue, if you say that your goals and beliefs are silly and wrong i won’t argue, but if you claim that i don’t love myself, you either bring a solid evidence or drop your claim, isn’t that fair? Im only asking for the truth, whats the truth? I don’t love myself according to societal love to oneself? According to the man made love? Sure

     

    and your opinion about the thinking of the majority of people (aka “normies”) is very, very low.

    As it should be, in this post there was only one person that understood me, there was 7 people who replied, none of them acknowledge anything i said, they all just go around the truth (just like teak did when i mentioned the example) ignore my logic, just because it touchs moral issues.

     

    You are very, very confident that your thinking is right

    Let me correct you, my thinking is right for my life and experience, and i believe there isn’t an objective one (correct me if im wrong in any points i do)

     

    you stated that you don’t believe in god

    No no, i can’t believe in god, this thing (philosophical suicide) wasn’t meant for me, i simply can’t believe in something without evidence, and yes im not perfect, i sometimes believe in things with very little evidence, but i should say that freewill wasn’t only from observation, there was few people that talked about it, and i was convinced, it actually was the breaking point to leave religion

     

    the arguments start: a member (like I did plenty) says gently or harshly: look what you wrote here (quote).. it doesn’t make sense, let me correct your thinking!.. And look what you wrote there (quote), you are wrong, Murtaza, wrong, wrong

    This bothers me because they usually don’t provides anything against my main argument, they don’t provide any logic to why im wrong, just “oh no you can’t do that, you must do that” why should i do that? No answer

     

    Murtaza then says: no, you are wrong, you don’t know what you are talking about!

    I believe that the way i was bulit and the result of me right now is a proof of my difference of people, whether that difference is good or bad, the thing is, people mostly helps by projecting thier beliefs and values “no you can’t kill yourself, thats bad, human life matters” “this is a bad thought” “freewill exist” “love yourself the way i tell you to”, so when i say you don’t know what you are talking about, its because they said something that was meant for people like them, the norimes, a person who has nearly same values and beliefs, that good and bad can be separated, that freewill exist, that god exist, that thinking positive will somehow makes your life better, you must understand that i came across so many people like this before i get “very very confident” and to this day, if anyone said anything about my life, i would feel gulity and re think my decision, a never ending cycle i had to stop

     

    And what is the point of these arguments- why does Murtaza waste his time this way.. and why do members waste their time this way…?

    Because arguments usually involves understanding the person mindset/points before arguing, its the only way i change my mind about things (and i say this because it happened many times), for an example a friend of mine manged to convince me to get a dog, i was convinced by his argument and i wanted to buy one (sadly they are too expensive in here), since understanding is a big thing i lack,  because my mother never gave it to us, and its nearly my number one need for love, so i peruse it, honestly one of the best times is when i have a good argument, and i did plenty in the past about freewill and religion, watched many also

     

    Because Murtaza has a lot of time in his days and nights, and he has nothing better/more interesting to do with all that time

    Thats another reason, but im very careful on who im spending my time with, i usually disregard anyone who show any sign of norimeness, not worth honestly

     

    conscientious people don’t want to be given that kind of responsibility, thinking something like: oh, oh, if I don’t give Murtaza a good argument and evidence, his blood is on my hands!

    Yes, morals stops them, they sacrifice the truth for a society bulit values, but i never saw it like this “responsibility” cause how they gonna make it worse? Im already fixated on death lol, they can try to make me see other point “which they didn’t btw” most of them just disregard my argument as depression or suicidal thoughts, im not even suicidal these days, and the post i did seems like a long time ago, and im better now, but im still holding to my argument because i think its true, but i thought that for once someone would come and say the truth, someone did, but not directly

     

    this is a public forum, anyone can read it: no conscientious person wants this kind of responsibility

    Reading this im thinking of “norimes”, i actually would do that, and i think that if there is people like me they would do that too, felixable when it comes to morlas and values. Thats another reason to post stuff like this, for like minded people

     

    What are you really getting out of posting

    Winning arguments that makes me feel good temporary:D, seeing norimes, the idea that i bulit, fit the definition, i just like to expecting something bad and it happens, it just makes me think that im a realist, i dropped the norime thing for teak, and it went nowhere, just like i expected, but i like her, she somehow reminds me of the people that i could connect with without my mindset, too bad

     

    One thing i didn’t expect was you getting angry at me, i did expect and still do, that you would stop talking to me, but to think im bad is another, should expect more bad things:D

     

    makes time pass more easily, better than doing other things or nothing at all.

    Not with norimes, unless im laughing

     

    words among the thousands that you will be reading today from people all over the world

    Believe it or not, this site is my only way to communicate with people.

     

    will make a significant difference to you?

    I wonder why there is a need to do that? Why can’t it be just beautiful words, but i remembered that this site, and what you do here mostly, is guide people, make a different in there life, advice them, hear them out, giving them validation.

     

    I think that the answer to this question is most likely: Nothing, really.

    They do makes me smile when i read them, sometimes shocked by the replay, how beautiful it is, but i guess you don’t believe in the butterfly effect:(

     

    You decide, you choose- to reply to me, or not. It is a bit of free choice, or free will, isn’t it: to type or not to type, to argue or not to argue, to answer this one person but not the other.. little choices like these.

    Poetic:D, so i would imagine that your reaction the other day “anger” was your choice? You might say, “the reaction to your words wasn’t my choice but how i reacted to it was my choice”, then i would say “that your choice of reacting in someway or another was very much determined about your mood and your day” you could not show your anger on a post, but what would that take? To get back to that exact moment and to have what you had back there, all the atoms and exact mindset, would you do differently? If so why didn’t you? I wonder. I think that this is what im talking about when i say that we don’t have freewill, there is simply so many factors that influence our actions that outside of our control, and there is no one to pull the trigger behind any of those actions, just desires and beliefs competing.

     

    feel that you are the Only One in Pain,

    No not really, millions of people suffer Endlessly, im not suffering that much, infact i have a somehow decent life, but i don’t like when they start comparing suffering, its silly because not all people alike, some endur more suffering and some don’t, why even try to compare? And i hate when someone says “i was like you”, NO, and you never will, thinking that if he was like me then he must know what it feels like to be me, how it feels like to live like this, and therefore he can advice me, i tell you if i met a person like me, i would never advice him, because i know people like me don’t like advices, and whenever a person start to advice and say that “i was like you” thats a red flag that he is a norime, im not saying that he isn’t suffering, nor that my suffering is greater, i just don’t like it when they start projecting.

     

    What are you really getting out of posting

    There is this thought “maybe i will get what i want somehow they would just give me what i want” appears always, and i tried so many times to do what it says, unconsciously, hoping that i somehow get the solution, the love, this is what teak talking about when she says “just accept your inner child” she has no clue whats hiddening there, to this day, i still hope that the next teak or antia post give me what i want, before i would go talk to stangers online, somehow, and in someway, remind me of this saying “people look for love in strange places when they didn’t have in thier childhood”

     

    #382488
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    How nice, that you opened your post with my name and a dear in front.. it makes me feel good. Before I attentively read and respond to your post, I want to share with you that this morning, before I got up, as I was listening to the loud chirping of birds from the outside, I remembered that you shared about the pharmacist who went out of way a bit to get your prescription filled- how moved you were, and on another occasion, how you reached out to some man outside your home and helped him somehow (I don’t remember the details), and I wished you would post because I wanted to tell you that maybe helping other people irl can make you feel good, even if you help this or that person just a bit.

    I just shared with you (the above) what went through my mind first thing in the morning, I am sharing it because I thought you might like it that I thought about you first thing in the morning.  I am not suggesting that you follow my thought with any action, there is no pressure whatsoever that you do anything about my thought.. it was just a thought. So, you are welcome to ignore the above, it will be perfectly fine with me. (No need to argue with me about it!)

    And now, to the rest of your post: I will be reading it all, but I will not respond to every single item, not when I feel that I will be repeating myself, or if I don’t understand a particular point or see a benefit in responding to it, same for future posts. If you want me to respond to a particular item that I ignored, let me know in your next post what it is.

    “I’m gonna try to be as honest as I can”- good, me too.

    “I do think my thinking is wrong… wrong by society standards”- I agree: society says it’s wrong for you to not be employed, but it doesn’t mean that it is really is wrong for you to be unemployed: you decide for yourself.

    “my thinking is right for my life and experience, and I believe there isn’t an objective one (correct me if I’m wrong in any points I make)”- I agree that your thinking regarding your life needs to fit you as an individual, and not a societal standard, as long as your behavior that results from your thinking is not asocial (ex.: you think that it’s right for you, as an individual, to ride your motorcycle fast any time you wish no matter what. As a result of this thinking, you run over a person and injures him/ her- that’s wrong thinking resulting in wrong behavior).

    “I’m only asking for the truth, what’s the truth? I don’t love myself according to societal love to oneself?”- I read earlier that you wrote that you do love yourself by making your life as easy as possible, and by trying to lessen your suffering. I agree that these things mean that you love yourself.

    “This bothers me because they usually don’t provides anything against my main argument, they don’t provide any logic to why I’m wrong, just ‘oh no you can’t do that, you must do that’ why should I do that? No answer”- if your questions are clearly stated, and a person answers you unsatisfactorily again and again, stop asking that particular person. (You may disagree with what I just stated, and that’s fine. Don’t argue with me about it).

    When I wrote to you: “Murtaza then says: no, you are wrong, you don’t know what you are talking about!”- I didn’t mean that you, Murtaza, is wrong. I did and do suggest that arguing is useless. Basically, you disagree with societal norms, and therefore with lots of society disagrees with you, so.. let it be: agree to disagree. Select who you are interacting with instead of interacting with everybody and arguing.. and arguing.

    “I’m very careful about who I’m spending my time with, I usually disregard anyone who shows any sign of norimeness, not worth honestly”- I didn’t notice this in your thread. Regarding your treatment of people exhibiting “norimeness”- if it looks like the person means well, send them a short post saying thank you, a polite acknowledgement- instead of ignoring them or replying rudely. This is my suggestion and I would like it if you followed my suggestion, but I am okay with it being your personal choice to follow it, or not.

    “I’m already fixated on death.. most of them just disregard my argument as depression or suicidal thoughts”- it is not a good idea to bring up suicide as an okay item to consider on a public forum. Let’s say such discussion is okay for you, but you don’t know who is reading and what their minds and lives are like.. so, discuss this privately, not publicly.  Because this is what I believe- I will not participate further in such discussion on your thread/ in these forums.

    “I didn’t expect.. you getting angry at me, I did expect and still do, that you would stop talking to me, but to think I’m bad is another, should expect more bad things“- I didn’t understand the part I italicized, but as to getting angry at you and no longer talking to you: yes, I was angry at you. I thought that I will never post to you again. Fast forward a few days, and here I am, not angry at you at all and posting to you. I might get angry at you again. Maybe as I read the rest of your post (I read one part, respond, then I read the next part, respond and so forth. I’ll let you know when it happens next that I feel anger at you).

    “I would imagine that your reaction the other day ‘anger’ was your choice? You might say, ‘the reaction to your words wasn’t my choice but how I reacted to it was my choice’…”- I feel some anger now because you are arguing again! You don’t even need me to participate in the argument, you imagine what I would say and argue with what you imagined I said (“You might say.. I would say..”).

    Okay, so now I am angry but not too angry, as I am not thinking of no longer replying to you. Yet, I am taking a few moments to calm down, look outside the glass door at the trees in the fog, reminding myself to not rush just because I feel angry… sh.. calm down. Okay, seems that your anger was triggered by my mentioning of Free Will. It has to be that you and I have different definitions of Free Will. I am guessing that your anger in regard to the term is valid, only that what you mean by it, is not what I mean by it.

    I tried to understand your argument: “then I would say ‘that your choice of reacting… would you do differently? If so why didn’t you? I wonder. I think that this is what I’m talking about when I say that we don’t have freewill, there is simply so many factors that influence our actions that outside of our control, and there is no one to pull the trigger behind any of those actions, just desires and beliefs competing”- I didn’t understand this fully, but.. right now I am not angry because I think I understand enough (and correct me if I am wrong):

    The term free will triggered your anger because when a person X uses the term, believing that it exists, what it means to you is that X is telling you that you are to blame, that it is your fault.. it’s the guilt you referred to before.

    I will offer you my definition of free will, try to calm down as you read it, and let me know if it is different from your definition. I will use the word emotion to mean energy (as in e-motion, or energy in-motion), and motion to mean an action/ a behavior.

    Free will: the possible human ability to pause between an emotion and the motion that the emotion calls for, and choose a different motion or no motion at all. For example: I feel angry at the dog=> I want to hit it (and I know I will get away with it unhurt)=> I don’t hit the dog.

    If you think of my definition above and the example, you can see that you practice free will (according to my definition) all day long.

    I ask that before you reply to me (if you do, I never expect it, but would like it if you reply)- please calm down, don’t type away when you are under the influence of anger because it hurts the possibility of honest, clear communication.

    *Oh, there is more to your post, more arguing, seems to me: “millions of people suffer… why even try to compare? And I hate when someone says ‘I was like you’, NO, and you never will.. whenever a person starts to advise and say that ‘I was like you’, thats a red flag that he is a norime, I’m not saying that he isn’t suffering, nor that my suffering is greater, I just don’t like it when they start projecting”-

    – seems to me that what triggers your anger when someone says “I was like you”/ when another person compares themselves to you, is that it feels like the person comparing is negating you, cancelling you.. like you disappear because of the comparison.  It is like it is either you are valid or the other person is valid. Maybe it is something we can talk about further.

    As to what you are trying to get out of posting, you wrote: “hoping that I somehow get the solution, the love… remind me of this saying ‘people look for love in strange places when they didn’t have in their childhood'”- love is a strange thing. How do you know when it’s there for you, can you tell.. if it goes away, was it ever there.. when it returns, will it stay?

    Let’s see what happens, think of this as an experiment: I felt love for you, then I didn’t, then I did again, and as a result of all this, I feel wiser and more capable of understanding you. What’s next will be determined by you and me if we continue to be honest with each other and avoid typing away when under the influence of anger.

    anita

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by .
    #382540
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear antia.

     

    I woke up today, i had a lot of dreams and you know that feeling when you dream so much and wake up feeling werid, i touched my noise and it felt like it the first time, i know what the dreams were about, but i don’t remember any, but i remember feeling love, having intimacy.

     

    I read and re read your replay, im glad that you shared your morning with me, i don’t want you to think that i don’t read or care about what you say or you in general.

     

    No need to argue with me about it

    Sometimes i just add a comment, sometimes its silly comment just to let you know that i read that thing you wrote, but from now on, assume that if i didn’t replay to a specific line from your post, it just means that i had nothing to say, and when i try nothing comes to my mind

     

    I’m gonna try to be as honest as I can”- good, me too

    One question comes to my mind, and if its too personal ignore it, what exactly made you angry with me? So i can avoid such thing in our future conversation, i actually avoided asking you any personal question, or anything that seems personal, intentionally, i remember that when i first talked to you, you were very strict about those, and i respect that

     

    but it doesn’t mean that it is really is wrong for you to be unemployed: you decide for yourself.

    I think i mentioned my problem with jobs, especially in iraq

     

    as long as your behavior that results from your thinking is not asocial

    I try not to harm people with my individuality, unless they require me to do something i don’t want to do (e.x my mother wants me to finish my school)

     

    if your questions are clearly stated, and a person answers you unsatisfactorily again and again, stop asking that particular person

    This is one of the reasons of labeling people as norimes, because it would give a good explanation why those people disregard my question and lifestyle, and its a good explanation, and i agree with you.

     

     I didn’t mean that you, Murtaza, is wrong. I did and do suggest that arguing is useless.

    As i stated, i believe that there is some people that can argue with me and maybe provide a better logic, thus i will either admit my lose or just lie to myself (i perfer the first because its easier) and from experience i did admit my lose many times.

     

    Select who you are interacting with instead of interacting with everybody and arguing.. and arguing.

    True, but i like showing norimes my argument and when they accept it/ignore it silently, it only proves my point, and its somehow a norime check, lol.

     

    I didn’t notice this in your thread.

    I didn’t spend any much real time and effort on the people that showed a lot of norime sign did i? Teak had a point, and i wanted to see where it goes, she sounded just like my therapist with a bit of an upgrade

     

    if it looks like the person means well, send them a short post saying thank you, a polite acknowledgement- instead of ignoring them or replying rudely

    If we are talking about me being rude, you know how much i get offended by thier posts and replies, how much i consider them rude? Why should i take thier rudeness? I can’t say thank you to someone who i don’t appreciate thier help, and i don’t see the point of being nice with holding what i really want to say, i won’t be that guy, who holds what he want to say because its nicer, it only hurt me because i won’t like myself very much then.

     

    it is not a good idea to bring up suicide as an okay item to consider on a public forum

    I never said it was a good idea, one part of my qualities is to say things people don’t wanna hear, to tell them the real things that happens for some of us, those people that don’t have much voice, people won’t hear them

     

    Because this is what I believe- I will not participate further in such discussion on your thread/ in these forums.

    I didn’t mentioned it for discussion, i already know your opinion, and it doesn’t actually matters anymore.

     

    I feel some anger now because you are arguing again!

    Im sorry, i was only showing you my pattern of thought, how i see freewill, and i gave a real life example

     

    You don’t even need me to participate in the argument, you imagine what I would say and argue with what you imagined I said

    I consider the other party responses and what he might say, i assumed that you gonna say that so i prove my point in one post, if i asked you and we go back and forth, it would take a while

     

    seems that your anger was triggered by my mentioning of Free Will

    I was very calm, i only mentioned it to support my argument against freewill, since you seem to think (which is my fault) that i only use it as an excuse, i won’t say that i don’t, i will provide a soild argument to why i think freewill doesn’t exist, but i will only do that after you say that you want to participate in this argument, and don’t view it as “argument” its more like both parties understanding the other points and give a better explanation, its growth

     

    The term free will triggered your anger because when a person X uses the term, believing that it exists, what it means to you is that X is telling you that you are to blame, that it is your fault.. it’s the guilt you referred to before

    It didn’t triggered me, i will tell you what triggers my anger (the ones i know and aware of)

     

    when a person misunderstand me, and when i try so hard to make him understand but he won’t because of some moral issues or some belief he made, its more frustrations then anger, but i feel both when this happens

     

    When a person claim something about my life without evidence (aka you don’t love yourself, my life is similar to yours)

     

    When a person think he is allowed to tell me what to do or what to think or  feel, what to believe and what to value

     

    I ask that before you reply to me (if you do, I never expect it, but would like it if you reply)- please calm down

    In our current thread, you never triggered my anger, and i won’t response to any of the freewill subject until i hear your permission.

     

    seems to me that what triggers your anger when someone says “I was like you”/ when another person compares themselves to you, is that it feels like the person comparing is negating you,

    I never thought of it this way, but today when i thought about it, i may knew the answer, when a person compares his life to mine, he usually is got over this period, so what i imagine when he start advising is (im better then you, i got over this, i just did this and this, you can do that if you want), actually it mostly like this when a person compares and start advicing, the superiority thing bothers me, he think that he is superior then me and allowed to tell me what to do, and that i must not know whats best for me, correct me if im wrong, and this is a new thought so its more like a hypothesis that i might change, but from what I’ve heard its always like this “i was X too, you just need to do this and this (give examples that worked for him and thinking that it must work for everyone)” by that i feel guilty for not doing X, and i remember that i did X long time ago, and it didn’t work, and that i think and feel different from them, and that there is no proof that he is like me, and even then he can’t advice me.

     

    It is like it is either you are valid or the other person is valid

    I think when a person start to throw silly advices on me, its just projecting, the part that bothers me that he/she think he must be right and this is allowed to say, in my world its very rude to tell a person what to do, especially if you only know what he showed to you via internet

     

    How do you know when it’s there for you, can you tell.. if it goes away, was it ever there.. when it returns, will it stay?

    It depends on the definition of love, if its a feeling, then i don’t pursue that, i meant that i somehow get a girlfriend, this is what im trying to kill, and i had to experience so many painful things to prove to myself that no such thing exist.

     

    One of the reasons that i don’t pursue the feeling of love, because its not under my control, i only foucs on the things i can control, feelings aren’t, but i welcome them when they come

     

    Let’s see what happens, think of this as an experiment: I felt love for you, then I didn’t, then I did again,

    I actually don’t think its mysterious at all (my opinion, i respect yours) i think that when i feel love because of an image and a belief, and when i don’t because this image or the belief start to change, (e.x i saw that sara is lovely and felt love for her but as soon as the “she doesn’t love me back” belief start to kick in, i lost the feeling, as it should be) i never love anyone who doesn’t love me back, and yes i control such thing, lol, i don’t know but its one of my powers you can say

     

    #382556
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    “I woke up today.. I touched my nose and it felt like it the first time…  the dreams were about… feeling love, having intimacy”- even a dream about being close to another person in a loving way makes us feel real/ one with our bodies, I am thinking. Alone and lonely for too long- we feel removed/ detached from our bodies.

    “I don’t want you to think that I don’t read or care about what you say or you in general”- thank you.

    “From now on, assume that if I didn’t reply to a specific line from your post, it just means that I had nothing to say, and when I try nothing comes to my mind”- I accept, good to know.

    “One question comes to my mind, and if its too personal ignore it, what exactly made you angry with me? So I can avoid such thing in our future conversation”-

    – the short answer is that what made me so angry were these words that you said to me on June 27: “I should say, me saying that you are correct, it wasn’t accurate“. The context: I was confused for a long time about your positions on different topics, and I do not like to be confused when clarity is possible. So, on June 26, I studied your thread long and hard, and came up with 1-4 items of understanding. I then asked you: “Is my understanding in this paragraph 100% accurate?” You answered: “Yes anita, as always”.

    On June 26, I was satisfied that my hard work paid off, and that I understood 100% correctly. On June 27, you reversed your answer, and in so doing, you pushed me out of my comfort zone (clarity), and back to my discomfort zone (confusion).

    It angered me very much that your “Yes anita, as always” was not sincere, and that it may have been a patronizing statement, as in saying something like: oh, anita, you really like to always be right, don’t you silly girl.. so, let me give you the candy you crave: “Yes anita, (you are right)as always”.

    But, even if you didn’t mean to patronize me, the fact that you answered insincerely (what I referred to later as intellectual dishonesty) was enough to get me fired up.

    “I try not to harm people with my individuality”- good to read this.

    “If we are talking about me being rude, you know how much I get offended by their posts and replies, how much I consider them rude? Why should I take their rudeness?.. I won’t be that guy, who holds what he want to say because its nicer, it only hurt me because I won’t like myself very much then”-

    – I am ALL for you saying what is true to you as it is. I am not AT ALL for you compromising your truth so to be nice. (I can’t stress this enough).

    Thing is, if I am to use your term.. not all normies are created equal: some are rude, others are insufferably arrogant, seeing those they are trying to help as inferiors, inferiors who need the help of their .. “superiors” (this arrogant attitude in itself makes helping people an impossibility), and yet others are nice people who do not see you as inferior to them, people who are really reaching out to you with a pure heart. I am suggesting to be nice to the latter group of people.

    “I will provide a solid argument to why I think freewill doesn’t exist, but I will only do that after you say that you want to participate in this argument, and don’t view it as ‘argument’ its more like both parties understanding the other points and give a better explanation, its growth”-

    – a fair argument on topic X has to be based on both parties agreeing about what X is. I gave you my definition of Free Will: “Free will: the possible human ability to pause between an emotion and the motion that the emotion calls for, and choose a different motion or no motion at all. For example: I feel angry at the dog=> I want to hit it (and I know I will get away with it unhurt)=> I don’t hit the dog.”.

    Give me your 2-4 lines straightforward, clear definition of the term, and we can see if we are talking about the same thing, or two different things. If Free Will means one thing to you, and a different thing to me- there is no basis for a fair argument.

    “I will tell you what triggers my anger… When a person claims something about my life without evidence (aka you don’t love yourself, my life is similar to yours). When a person thinks he is allowed to tell me what to do or what to think or feel, what to believe and what to value”- as I understand it, it angers you when (1) a person makes unchecked assumptions about you, not asking you before assuming, and (2) when a person is arrogant, thinking he/ she is superior to you and therefore is here to tell you what you should think and feel so to.. be less inferior that you are (?)

    The arrogant attitude (#2) disgusts me. And yet, it is possible (I’m afraid) that I did come across this way in the past, having had this disgusting arrogant attitude myself, yuck!

    “When a person compares his life to mine, he usually is got over this period, so what I imagine when he starts advising is (I’m better than you, I got over this, I just did this and this, you can do that if you want).. the superiority thing bothers me, he think that he is superior then me and allowed to tell me what to do, and that I must not know what’s best for me, correct me if I’m wrong, and this is a new thought so its more like a hypothesis that I might change”-

    – Amazing, you know that I read one part of your post, reply to it, then read the next and so forth. So, the part I quoted right above, I read it after what I wrote to you about arrogance and superiority. So, obviously I agree with your hypothesis.  One more thing to add: you know that my passion is learning about people, this is why I’ve been here for over six years, daily, for hours per day. Every once in a while I come across a member who sounds so intelligent, so all-together in their replies to other members…but sooner or later, as I keep reading, I can see that they do not have it all-together, far from it. It humbles me. I think that I used to sound arrogant. I don’t want to sound/ come across that way anymore. (Also, you’d think arrogant people are confident- far from it).

    “One of the reasons that I don’t pursue the feeling of love, because it’s not under my control, I only focus on the things I can control, feelings aren’t, but I welcome them when they come… I never love anyone who doesn’t love me back, and yes i control such thing, lol, I don’t know but its one of my powers you can say”- this is the healthiest/ wisest thinking I read/ heard in a long time. I am positively impressed!!!

    anita

    #382630
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Since when i said that “yes anita you are true” and i followed it with “not accurate” from now i will try to be as detailed as possible, and as short as possible (without repeating hopefully

     

    even a dream about being close to another person in a loving way makes us feel real

    Its more like when you dream so much that you feel werid when you wake up, since i didn’t remember the dreams, but only felt them, werid.

     

    “Is my understanding in this paragraph 100% accurate?” You answered: “Yes anita, as always”

    If i remember correctly at that time, i saw your understanding (the bigger picture of it) as true, when i said it wasn’t accurate (there was few definitions and words that i would’ve changed, but the bigger picture still true, the result is the same, i just re read your post, i apologize, i should’ve been more clear, so now im gonna state what wasn’t accurate in your 1-4 points (its repetitive from my past posts, so skip if you don’t care anymore)

     

    1) your pessimism is a disease that is eating you alive

    I said pessimism as a shortcut, i admit that one of my problems is that i don’t care about the other person opinion of what i say, thus i mostly say anything without seeing the other pov, back in the days it used to hurt when i look at myself through people eyes, still does, so i didn’t anymore, so i might say some things that hard for the other person to understand

     

    To answer your point, i don’t think its just pessimism, i believe its a collection of things (personality) a full package, not only pessimism, not only a desire not to change, not only a few bad beliefs about the world, not only a horrible attitude towards life, not only a strong need for truth, not only apathy, not only a desire to be independent, the whole package put together, makes it more like a disease

     

    2) there is no cure for it, no hope whatsoever to live without this disease

    As stated above, its a full package, inside this package is a desire not to change, even if there is hope to change a few things about this package (personality) it won’t allow him, so i wouldn’t call it a disease, because there is no cure, one example of this package is apathy, now if you ask how to cure apathy, the answer most likely would be “to care” (i know it isn’t that simple, but in a way or another this what they say), the thing is the cure and the disease is the opposite, imagine if someone has too much apathy, how could you blame him for not caring? Its like blaming someone who has diabetes, one thing to do is to add motivation (something that he loves) but even then he can be apathetic to such, if you see anything wrong tell me, i haven’t thought very much about this

     

    What im trying to say its more like a paradox, you need the cure to be cured, but how can you have the cure when you have the disease? Im thinking of your response “black and white” because apathy is degrees right? It still wouldn’t change my argument.

     

    3) the only way to stop the disease is in death

    The only way to change is by death, or a similer scenario from 1948 (when the main character get tortured to change his views) i know the latter doesn’t exist, but the first can be done

     

    4) you have good times but those aren’t worth it

    I believe that its not very much about the good times, but more likely how i see them, i believe even if i had the best life possible that i still wouldn’t consider it worth it (unless ofcourse i have a different mindset)

     

    Give me your 2-4 lines straightforward, clear definition of the term, and we can see if we are talking about the same thing

    In your above post you said that it angers you thag i argue, so i asked if you wanna argue about freewill (so that i don’t ignore your definition and what you said about it)

     

    To answer your question, my definition would be “an action that doesn’t has an uncontrollable cause” to support this definition i should say that i believe everything has a cause “determinism” and that every human action has a cause, to take your example “you don’t hit the dog” i would say that its determined on what comes before, the good example would be that you sometimes can’t control your anger and sometimes can, do you control this ? Or is it somehow depending on the situation? Ofcourse thinking that you in control, believing in such, make you more in control, but im not talking about whats the better believe, im talking about what is true

     

    I should say that even when i don’t believe in freewill, i do think i can control my emotions and feelings, im not removing the will itself, but when i do not control my emotions or feelings, i simply know that there was too many factors that i simply cannot know that interver with my decision, in a clear example (why did i not control my anger in scenario X and i did in scenario Y?) I believe that we create reasons based on our understanding, but when it comes to reality those reasons aren’t even close, for example they did an experiment with people and asked them about things while giving them hot and cold water to hold, thier answers was different depending on the temperature of the cup, if its warm they answer more nicely, if its hot they answer more harshly, imagine this little thing, this external thing can change a whole answer we tell ourselves, then how would we change our minds when it comes to the internal?, i sadly don’t have any evidence for such experiment happening, though where i heard it from is a very reliable source (to me maybe), its sam harris, a modren neuroscientist, he actually  influenced me a lot

     

    There is more depths in the freewill subjecte, but i wanna end it here to see your response, to just mention something, little morden philosophers believes in freewill, there is “compatibilism” which the majority of people now believe in (because of determinism).

     

    To back to your post

     

    when a person is arrogant, thinking he/ she is superior to you and therefore is here to tell you what you should think and feel so to.. be less inferior that you are (?)

    I think that people see what im currently in as a (phase) and that they all got through it, it  underestimate my suffering, and they advise under this assumption, and i hate when someone underestimate my suffering, especially when comparing, when i see the result of thier life, they have a normal thinking brain, less apathy, a desire to change, and they dare compare themselves to me

     

    and yet others are nice people who do not see you as inferior to them, people who are really reaching out to you with a pure heart

     

    Nice people? ture, can they help  me? False, is thier help appreciated? nope, because it only makes me mad or frustrated, or gulity, i won’t lie and say thank you, the best i can do is ignore them, the worse is to answer them in a passive-aggressive way.

     

    i just don’t want thier help, although this means most people, and it actually makes me sad, that i lost nice people for that

     

    I can see that they do not have it all-together, far from it

    I wonder if you want to criticize me what would you say? (Anything allowed ofcourse, and don’t think if its hurtful, i can take it)

     

    Also, you’d think arrogant people are confident- far from it).

    Its only a mask to hide the low self esteem or other things, i believe that some of my arrogant comes from that, since i have this really low self esteem

     

    this is the healthiest/ wisest thinking I read/ heard in a long time. I am positively impressed!!!

    I never thought i would be called healthy lol, thank you for the temporary confidence boost lol

     

    #382631
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    I just came back from the taproom. I will read and reply to you in about 11 hours from now. Good night/ morning, Murtaza.

    anita

    #382651
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    “From now I will try to be as detailed as possible, and as short as possible”- if you meant that you will try to be as detailed, short and accurate and clear as much as you possibly can, I appreciate it, thank you.

    “I didn’t remember the dreams, but only felt them, weird”- what did you feel, I wonder.

    You wrote that you have “a strong need for truth”- I have a strong need to know the truth too, this is why accuracy and clarity are so important to me.

    You shared that you are a full package, and that within this package is “a desire not to change”—>you have the desire to not change this desire (to not change).

    If I respect you then (and for as long as your actions are not asocial, as I mentioned before), then I must respect your desire to not change. If I try to change you in any way, then I am disrespecting you.

    “Imagine if someone has too much apathy, how could you blame him for not caring?”- I must not blame you for being apathetic.

    “I believe even if I had the best life possible, that I still wouldn’t consider it worth it”- you are very committed to not change your mindset, so committed that even if you had the best life (according to your own standards of best life, I imagine)- you still wouldn’t change your mindset in regard to life not being worth living. I think that your commitment to not change is indeed very strong.

    “I believe.. that every human action has a cause”- I agree… I did not understand your definition and explanation of the term free will. I am satisfied with my own understanding of the term and do not see the benefit in my suffering through trying to understand what seems to me too difficult to understand. There is no benefit in it for me because I am satisfied with my own understanding of the term, and there is no benefit in it for you because don’t want to change your understanding of the term.  And so, respectfully, I am abandoning the discussion on the term.

    “There is more depths in the freewill subject, but I wanna end it here to see your response”- thank you, my response is right above.

    “I think that people see what I’m currently in as a (phase) and that they all got through it, it  underestimate my suffering… I hate when someone underestimate my suffering, especially when comparing…  they have a normal thinking brain, less apathy, a desire to change”-

    – As I understand it, you are not in a phase (a phase means change is to come); you have a strong desire and commitment to not change. You hate it when someone compares their suffering to yours because their suffering was not as bad or unique as yours: your suffering has been so unique/ abnormal that it has led to your unique/ abnormal extent of apathy and desire to not change.

    “Nice people? True, can they help  me? False, is their help appreciated? Nope, because it only makes me mad or frustrated, or guilty, I won’t lie and say thank you, the best I can do is ignore them, the worse is to answer them in a passive-aggressive way”- I don’t understand why you (appear to) ask people for help and engage in discussions with them when the result frustrates you and makes you feel guilty. I brought this up to you before, but your answer did not lead me to understand. (If you try to explain this to me, please try to make your explanation much easier to understand than your explanation regarding the term free will)

    “I wonder if you want to criticize me what would you say? (Anything allowed of course, and don’t think if its hurtful, I can take it)”- I don’t know. I don’t have anything particular in mind. I am glad you care to not hurt other people/ to not be asocial. Keeping this in mind, I can’t think of anything to criticize you for. Oh, one thing maybe: one of the members who posted in your thread, Zeeza- I’ve been communicating with her for almost 4 years, and when I wrote to you earlier “people reaching out to you with a pure heart”- I was thinking about her. I think that she deserve a thank you from you, for meaning well and for posting to you with zero arrogance. Also, I could tell by her post that she spent a good amount of time and effort so to make her post clear and thorough.

    About arrogance, you wrote: “It’s only a mask to hide the low self esteem or other things, I believe that some of my arrogant comes from that, since I have this really low self esteem”- in my experience of reading your writings to me and to other members, you come as strong and confident, never submissive, which leaves a flavor of a high self esteem in my brain.

    “I never thought I would be called healthy lol, thank you for the temporary confidence boost lol”- you are welcome!

    anita

     

    #382668
    Murtaza
    Participant

    what did you feel, I wonder.

    I sadly can’t explain it, but if i remember correctly, i had this before many times, but it was more extreme, i remember one night (it usually comes when im sleeping) i woke up in the middle of the night, and i had it, i felt so weaken, so light, like im not in control, yet so rested, it was both good and bad, but i kinda like it, today i also had it, but i was dreaming and it was less extreme

     

    then I must respect your desire to not change. If I try to change you in any way, then I am disrespecting you.

    I never thought about that in this way, yes i (think) that’s true, i think that when someone tries i feel disrespected

     

    suffering was not as bad or unique as yours

    No i actually don’t think that it was my suffering that’s unique, but more likely my way of handling this suffering and my genetic, i also should say that i have a friend (by friend here i mean someone i talk to) he has kinda the same thinking, im only what i was created, nothing more nothing less, he also has GAD, and when i told him that this is a thing (he didn’t know) and told him about the cure (medication or lifestyle changing) he told me “forget it, im gonna suffer from this until i die, and it ruins everything for me”, i think that the result of me (end up with a desire to create my own philosophy and values and beliefs) is what made me unique, not the suffering, and i say unique based on the evidence i see

     

    your suffering has been so unique/ abnormal that it has led to your unique/ abnormal extent of apathy and desire to not change.

    The reason why i don’t like when they compare is because the present of me, the person right here, has tried everything they said without any benefit, and i hated it so much, everything that benefitted them didn’t do anything for me (e.x walking for a whole year made no difference to my mentality or added anything to my life) by difference i don’t expect happiness, but from what the people say, it actually matters to do, for me i see that if i did it and didn’t do it, its the same, the only difference is the long term benefits,  and the thinking that it helps (placebo effect).

     

    ask people for help and engage in discussions with them when the result frustrates you and makes you feel guilty

    Cause i have the hope that i would find people that understand my point and accept it, long shot but still i had to try, also in my first post here i was bored and sleepy, and i thought that my post gonna shock people (i like when i imagine thier pov lol), i also never asked for help, i seem like a guy with a problem, but im not really (by that i mean that the problem has no fix, so its not a problem by definition)

     

    I was thinking about her. I think that she deserve a thank you from you, for meaning well and for posting to you with zero arrogance

    Her post was rude to me, she said “i was suicidal and depressed for a long time” she disregard my argument as depression, and assumed that my life looked like her life once, and that this and that helped her, she was very respectful in what she said, and she meant well, but does she deserve a thank you? No, i don’t think anyone deserves anything, now i don’t blame her for her replay, i understand that this is how she was bulit, and im just not like that, but i won’t say thank you without actually meaning it, at least not online, when i can not say that, unless it matters to you, then i can flix my values

     

     I could tell by her post that she spent a good amount of time and effort so to make her post clear and thorough.

    I understand that, and i appreciate people like her, very nice and well intentioned people, actually i love people like that, makes me warm.

    #382673
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    I am back from another enjoyable evening at the taproom. I wish you were there, I wish you were there irl and that I could see you and talk to you, and that you were there to enjoy it too. I read your recent post and will reply tomorrow morning (in about 11 hours from now).

    anita

    #382675
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, so much emotion i feel from your replay, i wish i was there too, i think i will definitely enjoy it, and it would be unforgettable, i would imagine us talking all night, about this and that, with wine, seems like heaven, hope you have a good sleep, my day is upside down these days.

    #382681
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Dear Murtaza:

    Yes, I wish you were there, one of the regulars.. as long as you don’t argue with the normies there! lol.

    “My day is upside down these days”, you wrote at 8:37 am your time, meaning..?

    You wrote that when someone tries to change you, you feel disrespected, which fits with your strong desire and commitment to not change.

    You wrote that your suffering is not unique in itself, that what is unique is the philosophy, values and beliefs that you created as your way of handling suffering: “my own philosophy and values and beliefs is what made me unique, not the suffering”.

    “I also never asked for help, I seem like a guy with a problem, but I’m not really (by that I mean that the problem has no fix, so its not a problem by definition)”- here is an online definition of the word problem: “a situation, person, or thing that needs attention and needs to be dealt with or solved”- the last word of the definition is “solved”. So what you presented here, on a public forum, is a person (you) being in a situation (the circumstances of your life), and there is an extreme, or unique misfit/ nonconformity between the person and the situation.

    “I understand that, and I appreciate people like her, very nice and well intentioned people, actually I love people like that, makes me warm”. You wrote about the same person, “Her post was rude to me.. does she deserve a thank you? No”- you express a complexity here, part of you loves her, part of you feel offended by her.

    There is a Wikipedia entry on Social Alienation, it says that the concept of social alienation “can refer both to a personal psychological state (subjectively) and to a type of social relationship (objectively)”- in your case it is both: subjective and objective.

    The entry mentions an American sociologist, C. Wright Mills,  who in 1951 “conducted a major study of alienation in modern society”, describing “a society where you have to sell your personality in addition to your work”- very much fitting with what you expressed.

    An American social psychologist, Melvin Seeman, published a paper in 1959 “On the Meaning of Alienation”. He “considered a model to recognize the five prominent features of alienation: powerlessness, meaninglessness, normlessness, isolation and self-estrangement”- this too sounds very much like what you expressed, including the word “normlessness” (non-normie=normless).

    I am guessing that if Melvin Seeman met you, he would have given you a very  high grade on the social alienation spectrum… all the way at the extreme end of it, for the subjective and the objective types of social alienation.

    Seeman was a social psychologist. Social psychology is the scientific study of how a person’s thoughts, feelings and behaviors are influenced by other people: either real people who are in your presence, or imagined people, like when you argue with someone in your head, someone who is not there. Social psychology is about how people are influenced by internalized social norms–  a man has to work/ be employed, is one such internalized norm.

    “The first major area of social influence is conformity. Conformity is defined as the tendency to act or think like other members of a group”- you, Murtaza, get a bad grade on conformity, but not a zero because in some situations, you conform, ex,: when shopping, you don’t go out naked and refuse to pay. “A certain amount of conformity is adaptive in some situations, as is nonconformity in other situations”.

    “The second major area of social influence research is compliance, which refers to any change in behavior that is due to a request or suggestion from another person”- you get a very low  grade on compliance.

    “The third major form of social influence is obedience: this is a change in behavior that is the result of a direct order or command from another person”- you get a very, very bad grade for being obedient, if I may say so.

    anita

     

     

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