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wouldn’t be a mercy if i just ended my life?

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  • #382694
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear antia

     

    as long as you don’t argue with the normies there! lol.

    You make me smile

     

    My day is upside down these days”, you wrote at 8:37 am your time, meaning..?

    I woke up at the middle of the night 00:00, and i sleep at the day time, because its too hot in the day time

     

    you express a complexity here, part of you loves her, part of you feel offended by her.

    Since i haven’t thought about this to form an opinion, so im just gonna answer with what it comes to my mind right now “and i may change my mind later about this”, but i think its very solid answer, what i love about them is that they are compassionate and nice, and i imagine they would accept me for who i am, help me, maybe even hug me, feel my pain, what i don’t like is thier ideas and beliefs and values, that was given to them by society, and here im only assuming that they are a match with society, in Iraq what i have seen that females tend to follow society ideas and beliefs more then males, the reason i can think of is that males have more testosterone (correct me if im wrong), in a short description (i love them emotionally, i dislike them intellectually) i believe that this intellectual gonna interfere with the emotional, and for me to value the emotional side i first have to have the intellectual understanding, especially when i spent a lot of time to develop.

     

    Its interesting to read the rest of your post, i will read more soical alienation, never thought there is a name to my situation, everytime i read about something i feel alienated, that it doesn’t describe me, so i stopped.

     

    he would have given you a very  high grade on the social alienation spectrum

    It seems like a double edged sword, i think that where i live this isn’t acceptable, that it do more harm then good to the person

     

    The third major form of social influence is obedience: this is a change in behavior that is the result of a direct order or command from another person”- you get a very, very bad grade for being obedient,

    I remember that there was a voice inside my head that was influenced by society ideas, imagine that i could separate this voice from mine, to this day i do, i might add more to that If you are interested, i feel like sometimes i say things that aren’t neccessary (which i apologize, i said that i will be as short as possible and as direct to the point as possible, but this seems impossible for me since when i write all different ideas come to me and i cant seem to foucs on one, so i might drift from the main point)

    #382695
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    It is 2 am your time now (4 pm my time), cool enough for you to be awake. I didn’t read all of your recent post because I am tired.. and maybe I will be back at the taproom in the next hour… but I did read “I might add more to that if you are interested”- please do.

    “I said that I will be as short as possible and as direct to the point, but this seems impossible for me”- you can write however things come to your mind, that would be your first draft. Then later, you can re-read it and edit it to make a second/ final draft that is more clear and direct. That’s how I post more often than not. Clarity of writing is way more important to me than length.

    anita

    #382713
    Murtaza
    Participant

    please do.

    In birdman, there is a scene where the main character talks to his wife, he say “you know, there is a voice inside my head, he tells me what to do, its so comforting” he was schizophrenic, i was bit jealous that he has this voice, but i remembered how was my voice back in 2018, shameful and gulity, teak call it the protector, i call it me, one thing about this voice, its really is comforting, just imagine living in a country that value work over everything, that value being a man as the highest value, imagine how strong was this voice inside my head, and how did it made me feel over the years, but this voice, beats it all, i just love it, how apathetic it is, especially right now, when i lost my passion in music, and lost my desire to love, i think that this voice was gonna take over sooner or later, and when it does it wouldn’t let the other influences to disturb him, it wouldn’t let other voices to take his place.

    #382714
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    “I woke up at the middle of the night 00:00, and i sleep at the day time, because its too hot in the day time”- it says that right now in Baghdad, Sat 3:18 pm, it is 46 Degrees Celsius (115 F), it will go down to 29.44 (85 F) Sunday 4 am, then back up from then on. The Baghdad record high in July was 55 Degrees Celsius (131 F) in 2012… Global Warming worries me so much, it scares me.

    When I quote you, I regularly edit the grammar because it helps me to absorb/ process what you are expressing.

    “What I love about them is that they are compassionate and nice, and I imagine they would accept me for who I am, help me, maybe even hug me, feel my pain. What I don’t like is their ideas and beliefs and values, that were given to them by society… In Iraq what I have seen (is) that females tend to follow society’s ideas and beliefs more than males. The reason, I can think of, is that males have more testosterone (correct me if I’m wrong). in short, I love them emotionally, I dislike them intellectually”. You added that your intellectual dislike interferes with your emotional liking of women: “for me to value the emotional side, I first have to have the intellectual understanding, especially when I spent a lot of time to develop it”-

    – My thoughts: traditionally everywhere, men (testosterone, 95% of which is produced by the testes, is the primary sex hormone in males) have been freer to venture outside societal norms without fear of punishment, while women (estrogen and progesterone, produced by the ovaries, are the main sex hormones in females) were more  likely to be punished for the same. Therefore, it makes sense that women  fear venturing outside societal norms more than men, and “tend to follow society’s ideas and beliefs more than males”, like you said.

    Your explanation of loving women emotionally and disliking them intellectually explains the issue of complexity that I brought up.

    “I remember that there was a voice inside my head that was influenced by society’s ideas. I imagined that I could separate this voice from mine, to this day I still do do… In birdman, there is a scene where the main character talks to his wife, he says ‘you know, there is a voice inside my head, he tells me what to do, it’s so comforting’,  he was schizophrenic. I was a bit jealous that he has this voice, but I remembered how my voice was back in 2018: shameful and guilty, teak call it the protector, I call it me, one thing about this voice, it really is comforting. Just imagine living in a country that values work over everything, that values being a man as the highest value, imagine how strong this voice was inside my head, and how it made me feel over the years. But this voice, beats it all, I just love it, how apathetic it is, especially right now, when I lost my passion for music, lost my desire to love. I think that this voice was going to take over sooner or later, and when it does, it wouldn’t let the other influences disturb him, it wouldn’t let other voices take his place”-

    – My thoughts: (1) Birdman’s voice was society’s voice telling him what to do. Being obedient to this voice comforted him. He didn’t have to think for himself, (2) It is comforting to imagine that someone/ something greater than me knows best, has all the answers and I don’t have to bother myself with questions or answers. This is why so many people adhere to religion: the bible/ religious authorities tell the masses what to do, spelling out the questions and the answers, and all the followers have to do is to be obedient to the answers given, (3) You were jealous of the comfort Birdman felt hearing his societal voice, but you remember the shame and guilt that was attached to your societal voice back in 2018- it was not a comforting voice for you, (4) There is a New Voice in your head (“this voice”). It is the Voice of Apathy, and you are hoping that this voice will take over “all other voices”.

    Notice that I started this post an hour and twenty minutes ago. I spent all this time doing nothing but reading your recent two posts and typing. I take a long time to absorb and process your thoughts best I can. When you read this post (and future posts), please don’t rush to argue against my understanding when it doesn’t feel exactly  right. If you get triggered this way, take a break and come back to my post later, and re-read it, part by part, give it time. I mention this because it has been very frustrating for me when you rushed in the past to.. negate the clarity I am working so hard to achieve, negating it in a rushed way that confused/ disturbed me.

    It is okay with me that you disagree with me, or point to this or that which you believe to be my misunderstanding of you- but do it clearly, patiently, not in a rushed way- so that I can clearly understand what it is that you are saying.

    anita

     

    #382716
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, you misunderstand my example, and its my fault actually, its the opposite of what you think

    My thoughts: (1) Birdman’s voice was society’s voice telling him what to do. Being obedient to this voice comforted him. He didn’t have to think for himself

    I should’ve been more clear, the voice inside his head wasn’t a societal influenced one, it was more like a unique voice that tells him what to do, what i was jealous of, is that guidance, the guidance of the voice, his voice was separate from him, because of his shizophernia, you should watch the movie lol

     

    (2) It is comforting to imagine that someone/ something greater than me knows best, has all the answers and I don’t have to bother myself with questions or answers. This is why so many people adhere to religion

    True but for me it has so many negative sides

     

    You were jealous of the comfort Birdman felt hearing his societal voice, but you remember the shame and guilt that was attached to your societal voice back in 2018- it was not a comforting voice for you

    I was jealous of how the voice comforted him, in one scene of the movie when he lose his play, the voice tells him “So you’re not a great actor! Who cares?” the way he says this, i remembered my voice, the same kinda of apathy, lost love and all life passion, and it say “Who Cares?” Its undefeatable

     

    There is a New Voice in your head (“this voice”). It is the Voice of Apathy, and you are hoping that this voice will take over “all other voices”.

    There was a fight inside me back in 2018, two voices, the societal one and mine, eventually it take over, and its not new, its been living for a long time, what i like about the voice that its comforting, everything i lose and lost and it still tells me “So what?”, when i compare it to a norime mind, i feel so much peace, i forgot how people live

     

    and you are hoping that this voice will take over “all other voices”

    In your first post to me, you said “Murtaza vs society”, i already won, thank to the help of medication, i now no longer need society nor want nor desire anything from it, both my desire of love and motivation to do things has been lost, and i do miss them sometimes but when i remember the GAD, and how i was living everyday, i say its worth it, it wasn’t needed anyway

     

    I will re read your post in about 10 hours, maybe add some.

     

     

    #382723
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    You are correct, I misunderstood the voice inside his head (I read some, including Wikipedia’s entry on the movie, and indeed, like you said, I was wrong).

    “I was jealous of how the voice comforted him, in one scene of the movie.. the voice tells him ‘So you’re not a great actor! Who cares?” the way he says this, I remembered my voice, the same kins of  apathy, lost love and all life passion, and it say ‘Who Cares?’ Its undefeatable”-

    – My thoughts/ my experience: I tried so hard to not care, for so long, I stayed angry, resisting the feeling of empathy for other people… I really tried hard, and I succeeded.. only I was so very unhappy, alone and lonely. However lonely you are, Murtaza- I can’t imagine a greater feeling of loneliness than I have felt year after year, for so long, so long that it felt like eternity.

    Fast forward to now, it seems like getting back to feeling empathy for other people makes me feel a  togetherness, not alone/ lonely anymore. Empathy is like magic, in this context. It makes a big difference.

    Notice I shared about my thoughts/  my experience- I realized only a short while ago, that this is the only way I want to write to you. In other words, I want to shift from telling you how your life is for you, to telling you how my  life is for me. The advantages in this shift is (1) It is far less arrogant of me- a good enough reason, I don’t need a second, (2) But here it is anyway: you can argue with me about what I tell you about how life is for you. You can’t argue with me about what I tell you about how my life is for me.

    “the voice.. comforting (about)  everything I lose and lost.. it..  tells me ‘So what?’, when I compare it to a norime mind, I feel so much peace”- at peace is all I ever wanted to feel.

    “In your first post to me, you said ‘Murtaza vs society’, I already won, thank to the help of medication, I now no longer need society nor want nor desire anything from it, both my desire of love and motivation to do things has been lost, and I do miss them sometimes but when I remember the GAD, and how I was living everyday, I say its worth it, it wasn’t needed anyway”-

    – I am all for Murtaza being at peace. I hope the GAD lessens and lessens. It has taken forever for my anxiety to lessen little by little. It’s still there but less. I remember an experience I had, it now comes to mind: it so happened that I had an unexpected access to a particular drug (I was never into street drugs and the illegal drug trade), but I had access to this particular drug, I took it, and the most unbelievable thing happened: I felt perfectly good, and I mean perfectly good- not a single bad thought, not a single bad feeling (it never happened before).. and it kept going and going hour after hour and into the night. Of course, I had no desire to fall asleep, it simply felt too good to be awake.

    Eventually I slept, and in the morning it felt almost as good, and the next day.. pretty good, and when the good wasn’t good-enough, I wanted more of that drug and took more, and the same happened. So, I took it again.. but then, at one time and the next, all that happened was that I threw up, no good feeling. What a disappointment. I took it again.. threw up, no good feeling. That was the end of it. But I remember how good I felt, never did I consider that it was possible to feel that good (in any circumstance) until that experience.

    I didn’t watch Birdman, am not in the habit of watching movies anymore. But I bet the acting by Michael Keaton was good. At the time I very much enjoyed Pacific Heights (1990), and of course, the legendary movie Beetlejuice.

    anita

     

    #382726
    Murtaza
    Participant

    I tried so hard to not care, for so long, I stayed angry, resisting the feeling of empathy for other people… I really tried hard, and I succeeded.. only I was so very unhappy, alone and lonely. However lonely you are, Murtaza- I can’t imagine a greater feeling of loneliness than I have felt year after year, for so long, so long that it felt like eternity.

    To be honest i don’t even feel lonley anymore, i don’t feel anything, i just exist, which is better then feeling lonely and can’t change it, if the cure requires to drop all life passion, then its worth it, because i suffered from that passion

     

    Fast forward to now, it seems like getting back to feeling empathy for other people makes me feel a  togetherness, not alone/ lonely anymore. Empathy is like magic, in this context. It makes a big difference.

    I don’t understand exactly what you mean, could  you elaborate? How did you felt empathy? I feel sympathy (if i remember correctly its seeing your pain in others), but empathy i only feel when i like the person, i don’t let anyone get my empathy, its a feeling i appreciate and won’t spend it on people that aren’t worth it

     

    I want to shift from telling you how your life is for you, to telling you how my  life is for me

    Very thoughtful, and very wise, since i believe that because you was able to understand me, that you somehow share a similar experience, sharing that experience might not influence me, but just the conversation makes me know things about myself, one example is that “i knew that external validation never works for me, it always has to come from me”, this may sound like a small thing, but it isn’t, i always asked for people validation online in the past, never happening again

     

    you can argue with me about what I tell you about how life is for you. You can’t argue with me about what I tell you about how my life is for me.

    True, this approach not only works for me but i think its good since i won’t be the only one who talks about my life :D, i will feel the conversation is both parties, and im not using the other person to get attention or waste time (which its not my intention anymore with this conversation, the only reason i got in my mind is both because i enjoy it, and because it makes me think, sometimes i would read it before i go to the roof, to have some ideas to think about)

     

    I felt perfectly good, and I mean perfectly good- not a single bad thought, not a single bad feeling

    I believe that everything has a price, and this feeling good may has unknown price (such as addiction or some hidden long term effects)

     

    So, I took it again.. but then, at one time and the next, all that happened was that I threw up, no good feeling. What a disappointment. I took it again.. threw up, no good feeling. That was the end of it.

    Its honstly sounds too good to be true, and that if you actually continued you would be in the hospital (i meant if it didn’t make you throw up and made you feel good), a question comes to my mind, how would you describe feeling good under that drug? Ofcourse you can just skip this if you don’t want to answer, and i won’t mind

     

    never did I consider that it was possible to feel that good (in any circumstance) until that experience.

    Its funny because i had the opposite experience wih prozac, worst days of my life, ever, i never thought life could be this painful, if there is hell, that was a glimpse of it.

     

    I didn’t watch Birdman, am not in the habit of watching movies anymore.

    I wonder if you have seen mary and max ? This conversation reminds me of it, im just gonna re watch it for the 2nd time, just so i can see how similar our conversation to that movie, its one of my favorite movies.

     

    But I bet the acting by Michael Keaton was good

    Actually he is one of my favorite actors, although i never watched his 90s films, the founder was of my favorite movies at sometime.

     

    Im also not in the habit of watching movies anymore, im just tired of the same story over and over again, in movies, my reason number one, was to see people like me, in first reformed/ the wrestler / birdman, they motivated me to care enough about my life, to end it, they motivated me to do something good for myself (i don’t want to discuss this, im just saying, disregard it, i understand)

    #382728
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    I read through your recent post and I am looking forward to reply when I am rested, Sunday morning my time(about Sunday 5 pm your time).

    anita

    #382729
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, i was thinking of something the other day, my big brother is autistic and he kinda use my mother to get from her attention and to hear him out, she don’t mind since she feel like she is giving something (a sense of worth), the thing that bothers me is that i remembered our conversation,  if this is whats happening here, plaese lets end it because i won’t like myself

     

    Today i was thinking of my values, and although im fixable, i do value not hurting people and just leave them be, to live in peace with them, so from now on, i won’t answer another member that i don’t see a point of our conversation, and i won’t answer him unless i have something nice to say, i think that its better to not say anything then to lie, and i do appreciate thier help (kinda) but i don’t really feel thanking them, if i did im afraid it would be for other reasons, to use them for my emotional needs, just like my mother did with us, its something inherited and im trying not to do people like that, the thing is, without this, i don’t see a point of people, anyhow, this was supposed to be a quick post just to be sure that this conversation isn’t just about me, and if you make a lot of effort in it, i want you to lessen that effort, because i don’t put the same kinda effort, as you said, we are equal, and i want you to give in a reasonable amount, in a fair way, but im totally ok with both, i want you to be as comfortable as you can be, i will always remember our conversation as similar to mary and max, in this scenario, its even better

    #382742
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    “My big brother is autistic and he kind of uses my mother to get her attention and to hear him out, she doesn’t mind since she feel like she is giving something (a sense of worth)… If this is what’s happening here, please let’s end it because I won’t like myself”-

    – No, this is not at all what is happening, and I am glad to be able to say this confidently, without any hesitation. It is only yesterday that I thought about how much you are teaching me: you are teaching me to not be arrogant, to not assuming that because something is possible for person X, it is also possible for person Y. You are teaching me that it is forgivable for me to have the feeling of love for you, and then to lose it.. and have it again. You are teaching me to be less academic and no longer authoritarian in my replies to members. You are teaching me the importance of sharing about my experience of life instead of arguing with others about their experience of life.

    “I do value not hurting people and just leave them be, to live in peace with them, so from now on, I won’t answer another member that I don’t see a point of our conversation, and I won’t answer him unless I have something nice to say, I think that its better to not say anything than to lie”- I am pleased to read that you value not hurting, and living in peace with other people. I value the same. I believe that you value very highly being true to yourself. I say to you and me: in all circumstances where and when it is possible to practice both values, practice both: be true to yourself and don’t hurt/live in peace with others.

    “just to be sure that this conversation isn’t just about me”- it isn’t. “I want you to be as comfortable as you can be”- thank you!

    From your previous post: “I don’t even feel lonely anymore, I don’t feel anything, I just exist, which is better then feeling lonely and (not being able to) change it. If the cure requires to drop all life passion, then it’s worth it, because I suffered from that passion”- there is no arguing with what you wrote here. Your life experience provides the evidence that this is true. I believe that what you wrote here is indeed true.

    I wrote to you: “Fast forward to now, it seems like getting back to feeling empathy for other people makes me feel a  togetherness, not alone/ lonely anymore. Empathy is like magic, in this context. It makes a big difference”, and you wrote: “I don’t understand exactly what you mean, could  you elaborate? How did you feel empathy? I feel sympathy.. but empathy I only feel when I like the person, I don’t let anyone get my empathy, it’s a feeling I appreciate and won’t spend it on people that aren’t worth it”-

    – I don’t feel empathy for everyone. I definitely don’t feel empathy for people who are hurting other people, for people in great positions of power who have the opportunities to help thousands and millions of people, yet they are choosing to not help, and/or harm instead. I don’t feel empathy for a cruel, inhumane person- whether he/she intentionally and severely harms one other individual, or a whole nation.

    To elaborate further about empathy: as I am typing this post to you, I am one person talking to another person of equal human value, as well as a person (in my mind) with equal/ comparable intelligence, a person like me: not more than me, not less than me. Empathy is in equality, and in equality, I am no longer alone and lonely.

    The way I used to live, in social isolation and alienation, I was either inferior (the great majority of the time) or superior, never an equal.

    “‘External validation never works for me, it always has to come from me’, this may sound like a small thing, but it isn’t, I always asked for people’s validation online in the past, never happening again”- It is a big thing to me: when I asked for others’ validation in the past, I did it under the assumption that they are superior to me. I had no evidence to make such an assumption. Members in these forums often ask just anyone who may be reading (people they know nothing about, people they never communicated with before): am I a bad person for thinking/ feeling/ doing this or that? My question to the person asking this question is: who are you asking?

    “I believe that everything has a price, and this feeling good may has unknown price (such as addiction or some hidden long term effects)”- yes, unfortunately. Yet, I didn’t know until then that it was possible to feel like that for any length of time, for even a minute. It was a very new emotional experience for me.

    “how would you describe feeling good under that drug? Of course you can just skip this if you don’t want to answer, and I won’t mind it”- thank you,  I don’t mind: it felt like all the fear, all the shame and all the guilt were squeezed out of my brain and body and were gone. So, I was happy, heavenly happy and I waited (not anxiously, just waiting) for the next thought that will cross my mind and take away this happening, and to my surprise, whatever thought entered my mind was .. devoid of any fear, shame or guilt.

    “I wonder if you have seen Mary and Max?”- no, I just googled it, it’s an animated comedy-drama, it says.

    It is good talking to you this Sunday morning!

    anita

    #382776
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear antia, to correct myself, i don’t often feel sympathy for people (to understand the pain of others) but more empathy (to see my pain in others and feel it) from what i understand about the two words, that empathy doesn’t include only yourself but it can include other people pain, my point that i always looked for people like me, and i did that in movies since i couldn’t in real life, one thing about music and movies, is that when they say thier pain (and its similer to mine) i can feel it, with music its even better because they say it in a nice way, i feel like someone is saying those things for me, i feel like that i was put in silent, that the words have been taken away from me, and that this person is saying exactly what i feel, its somehow like he speaks for me.

     

    with equal/ comparable intelligence, a person like me: not more than me, not less than me. Empathy is in equality

    When i think about your life, i see a young girl, suffering from loneliness, alone, it must been so long after you be right here, when i try to visualize this, i put myself inside that girl mind, i can see why you wanted to help people online, from my pov, its because you don’t want for people to suffer like you did, you didn’t had internet back then (i suppose?) And you were all alone, so you didn’t want this to happen to all people

     

    When you said that i think my suffering is unique, and that im the only one who is suffering, i thought about it today, and from what i can say, is that all my family had worse suffering, and that you would be surprised if i told you that im  the least depressed person in this family, my point was, is that every person is different, and that we can’t measure suffering objectively, since every person have a different endurance to it

     

    The way I used to live, in social isolation and alienation, I was either inferior

    In here, i am truly inferior in other people eyes, unless they aren’t so brainwashed, sadly i learned that females tend to be more vulnerable to that by society, it makes me bit mad, that people give thier mind so easily.

     

     I did it under the assumption that they are superior to me

    What it comes to my mind is that, anyone who feel he can help you  that he can advice/ teach you (mostly)feel a bit superior, when i tell people about my life, they immediately see me inferior (because i don’t work, no social life etc) its knowing to them that being dominating socially makes you superior automatically, what they do is that, they start to assume that my life looks very much like a point of thier life (when they got kicked from a job, or when they got depressed) and start projecting thier experience on me, what bothers me isn’t them ultimately, but the fact that they have been told how to feel and think, and start telling me how to think and feel

     

    Anyone could validate you, but whats the point of this validation if it comes from a stranger? What value does it have? I think the same goes for love and attention.

     

     I didn’t know until then that it was possible to feel like that for any length of time, for even a minute. It was a very new emotional experience for me.

    I wonder if you ever felt like that again?

     

    it felt like all the fear, all the shame and all the guilt were squeezed out of my brain and body and were gone. So, I was happy

    So its more like having no bad feelings then actually having good feelings? I wonder how would you define happy, i somehow get the feeling that its “no suffering” and the evidence (devoid of any fear, shame or guilt.) Makes me feel bit sad for that young female.

     

    It is good talking to you this Sunday morning!

    What about other days:D

     

     

    #382791
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    I ended my last post to you with “It is good talking to you this Sunday morning!”, and you asked: “What about other days”? Well, since you asked, I will tell you how I felt since I posted to you Sunday morning, July 11, all the way to now (And by the way, I didn’t read all of your recent post, at this point):

    After posting to you yesterday I felt very good, just like I told you. Then I took a walk in nature and I replayed what I wrote to you in my mind, as I walked. I remembered that I wrote to you that I believe that it is important to you to be true to yourself. Next, I thought that maybe you will argue with me on that point, saying that I misunderstood. Next, I felt angry and frustrated, wondering if I should not say anything at all to you about you, no matter what. Fast forward to this morning, I saw that you posted, but I did not want to read what you posted until after I reply to everyone else because I suspected that you will be arguing with me, and I didn’t want to feel the frustration I expected to feel.

    At this point, I will read the rest of your recent post to see if my suspicion came true… I just read it all, and no! You did not argue with me. What a relief. I think that I am argument-phobic, at this point, and that it has to do with growing up with a mother who often argued with me, repeating her message to me that my thinking/ my understanding is wrong (while promoting her unintelligent and/ or insane, and constantly shifting thinking as the correct thinking and understanding).

    So, now I feel relieved and I  just noticed that I also feel tired.

    “When I think about your life, I see a young girl, suffering from loneliness, alone.. When I try to visualize this, I put myself inside that girl mind, I can see why you wanted to help people online. From my pov, its because you don’t want for people to suffer like you did, you didn’t had internet back then (I suppose?) And you were all alone, so you didn’t want this to happen to all people”-

    – I read this part before I started my reply to you, and I felt very good about it, the thought of you .. retroactively caring to think what’s inside the girl-anita’s mind-  makes me feel affection for you, and it brings this small smile to my face right now.

    Your POV is correct: I am attentive to what people share on these forums, often repeating to them what they shared, not only because it helps me processing information, but also  for the purpose of letting people know that they are heard, that someone is hearing them, and so, they are not terribly alone. This is also the reason behind me answering everyone as soon as I can (exceptions exist), so that they don’t feel unheard. It all stems from my experience as a child and a teenager: unheard. It was as if I screamed but no one heard.. as if my screams, literal or figurative (my intense fear and anger and excruciating frustration, shame and guilt) were silent, no one saw me, no one heard me, no one.. no one there.

    And no, there was no internet back then.

    “In here, I am truly inferior in other people eyes.. when I tell people about my life, they immediately see me inferior (because I don’t work, no social life, etc.)”- and within the people who do work and have social lives, those who make more money and/or have prestigious jobs, etc.,  are considered superior to the others, aren’t they. The Superior category is not homogenous: many within it are considered inferior and/ or feel inferior.

    “What it comes to my mind is that, anyone who feel he can help you  that he can advice/ teach you (mostly)feel a bit superior”- yes, mostly. And on the topics for which original posters in these forums ask advice for, when members replying allege to have a superior mental health- that allegation should never be accepted without question, no matter how.. impressively healthy a member replying sounds on a particular reply, or on a series of replies on a particular day. It takes reading a replying member’s replies over a long time to get a feel for that member’s mental health status.

    “So its more like having no bad feelings then actually having good feelings? I wonder how would you define happy”- I think that it was something like this: a bird is caught in seaweed that is wrapped around her wings and body, she can’t move, she can’t fly. The drug I took did something similar to dissolving all that seaweed and the bird found herself free for the first time in the longest time, so she soars up into the sky and flies, nothing is hindering her, nothing is in her way.. happy.

    “I wonder if you ever felt like that again?”- no, but sometimes I felt close to it, not very close, but closer.

    “Makes me feel bit sad for that young female”- thank you. This is your empathy for me= it is you hearing my past suffering.

    anita

    #382816
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, im impressed by your detailed and great replay, i don’t think i can do justice to it.

     

    You did not argue with me. What a relief

    I honestly didn’t know you feel that way about arguing, thank you for telling me.

     

    I think that I am argument-phobic

    Its werid because you good at it :D, and i think the reason might be because you lived alone for so long, you thought a lot about things, you learned how to think, the result is that you right now, think twice before you write anything

     

    repeating her message to me that my thinking/ my understanding is wrong (while promoting her unintelligent and/ or insane, and constantly shifting thinking as the correct thinking and understanding)

    I think i understand, though i like to leave no doubt, so i will tell you what i understood and you correct me (if the subject is personal and you wanted to only share that, just disregard this section and i will understand to not ask such stuff in the future)

     

    She (your mother) said stuff that isn’t true, though you felt they are, even when you know they aren’t, so you felt that you are the problem, that your understanding/logic is flawed, so you dislike argument because its unconsciously tells you that you are the problem, that your understanding is flawed, is this correct?

     

    I feel like im anita now lol, feels good actually.

     

    unheard. It was as if I screamed but no one heard.. as if my screams, literal or figurative (my intense fear and anger and excruciating frustration, shame and guilt) were silent, no one saw me, no one heard me, no one.. no one there.

    I wish that you had someone hearing you, i hope that this changed right now, that you don’t feel unheard like that anymore, would’ve loved to hear you, to do exactly what you do to other members and me, understand you and make you feel heard, and important

     

    And no, there was no internet back then

    How did you spend your day if i may ask? (Again disregard anything personal, no need to adress it, i will know that this was personal and i wouldn’t ask in the future).

     

    The Superior category is not homogenous: many within it are considered inferior and/ or feel inferior.

    Very true

     

    I said “What it comes to my mind is that, anyone who feel he can help you  that he can advice/ teach you (mostly)feel a bit superior…”

     

    I admit that i was a bit defensive here, i re thinked about what i said, and i think that there is a lot of reasons why people help others, and it oftens doesn’t feel like the other person think he is superior, a good example is teak, i don’t think she thought that she is superior (maybe a little bit), she did made me feel like that at first (she made fun of me not believing in freewill) and i did wanted to make fun of her belief of god, but i didn’t, cause i respect others beliefs no matter how werid they are to me, because to them it make sense, i didn’t like when someone make fun of my belief, so i won’t do that to people (unless it was for a greater purpose)

     

    I think that help mostly involves the things i mentioned above, but its not the other person intention, i think people intention (mostly) are well, but for me, since i have different values and beliefs, thier help usually conflict with those

     

    I think that it was something like this: a bird is caught in seaweed that is wrapped around her wings and body, she can’t move, she can’t fly.

    Very good example, i think that for some birds, just forget flying, and forget that they have wings, i think that the first is better, but it will involves much more strength, to be trapped for so long, yet still wanting to fly.

     

    #382826
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    “How did you spend your day if I may ask?”- I remember starting a fantasy story in the morning, setting the characters and the beginning plot, and developing the story throughout the day, as I walked to school, as I walked back from school, and when alone in the apartment, I used every moment of that alone-time to keep the fantasy story going uninterrupted, helped by the music from the radio. Two themes I remember were (1) love stories, and (2) being famous: dancing or singing in front of huge audiences, being a famous movie star, celebrated and worshipped by millions. I remember fantasizing about starting a religion and being a world leader.

    “I think that for some birds, just forget flying, and forget that they have wings. I think that the first is better, but it will involves much more strength, to be trapped for so long, yet still wanting to fly”- I never got to fly by making my childhood fantasies come true, but in my communication with you, I am somewhat flying (!)

    “I think that there is a lot of reasons why people help others, and it often doesn’t feel like the other person thinks he is superior”- you will see as I proceed, that you are helping me. I am motivated to be helped by you because of what you expressed in your most recent post:

    “I’m impressed by your detailed and great reply” (a compliment), “thank you for telling me” (grace), “you’re good at it” (another compliment.. and you are good at complimenting, by the way), “I think I understand” (rapport), “correct me.. if the subject is personal.. disregard this section and I will understand to not ask such stuff in the future”, (sensitive, considerate, accommodating, respectful), “I feel like I’m anita now lol, feels good actually” (another compliment with a touch of humor), “I wish that you had someone hearing you… would’ve loved to hear you, to do exactly what you do to other members and me, understand you and make you feel heard, and important” (empathy, kindness), “I don’t like when someone makes fun of my belief, so I won’t do that to people” (empathy, decency)

    All the above impressive sentiments  make me want to share with you more and be helped by doing so (a compliment to you before I proceed: I think that you are brilliant!).

    “She (your mother) said stuff that isn’t true, though you felt they are, even when you know they aren’t, so you felt that you are the problem, that your understanding/logic is flawed, so you dislike argument because its unconsciously tells you that you are the problem, that your understanding is flawed, is this correct?”- yes. I will elaborate in effort to helping myself understand better:

    She indeed “said stuff that isn’t true”. She repeatedly told me, in great length, with many (made up) details, how I was a bad girl who was purposefully and in a planned way- hurting “the best mother in the world”, so she said. She also told me while hitting my face back and forth with her big hand: you are a Nobody, you are a Big Zero. She elaborated on that too, in great length.

    Like you suggested, I thought that I was the problem, but I also thought that she was the problem. The conflict has been the mental torture all along: the back and forth internal fight between contradictory evaluations of myself and of her. When I believed that I was a big zero- I felt terribly ashamed. When I believed that I was bad- I felt terribly guilty, when I believed that she was bad- I felt a mixture of intense anger at her and intense guilt for thinking badly of her.

    My mother talked a lot, gossiped a lot, expressed her misery a lot, was often angry at me, often disapproving, often annoyed with me. She repeatedly threatened to kill herself (I remember her showing me her wrists, showing me where she would make the cuts), she said she had to do it because of me, because of something I said, or should have said but didn’t, because of something I should have done but didn’t, and because of what I was thinking. I didn’t tell her what I was thinking. She told me. I argued: no, I wasn’t thinking that (and I didn’t)! But those denials made her more angry, accusing me of lying.

    Following 15 years of hearing her threats of suicide, I was 20 maybe, following her walking on the sidewalk after she said that she was going to throw herself under a moving truck (because of what I said or didn’t, etc.)- I remember no longer really believing that she will do what she said she will, wishing that she did, feeling somewhat bored, distressed but detached at the same time, and knowing what was to follow: hearing her talk for hours until she got too exhausted to talk any more, then she would go to bed, then there will be a few days of eerie silence.

    This torture harmed my brain: I developed severe OCD with elaborate compulsions and severe tics (Tourette Syndrome) starting at about 5 or 6 that further tortured me as I experienced social ridicule and rejection. (I no longer suffer from OCD and my tics are limited to only a few and are less severe). I developed the habit of spacing out/ being “gone”, shutting down my brain as she talked by hearing the sounds she made, but not deciphering the words and sentences. This led to my great difficulty in processing information, making academic studies very difficult, involving hours of work to process information that others took fifteen minutes to process, maybe less. This shut-down led me to not be aware of what was happening around me, not seeing where I was going (I remember hearing a vehicle just missing hitting me, not having noticed that I walked into traffic). In social situations, I didn’t understand what people said, what they meant, what they wanted, and that led to finding myself in situations that further harmed me.

    One of my severe tics as a teenager (maybe before as well) was my head moving right and left in quick succession, as in saying No. Sometimes I was thinking: doesn’t she (my mother) see, why doesn’t she stop talking to me. Doesn’t she see that I am saying NO!?

    One time she said: I know that what I am doing is not right, but what are you going to do? You have nowhere to go.

    My mother, my own mother who had a hard life, divorced early, no one to help her financially, working hard cleaning rich people’s homes and offices, scrubbing bathtubs so hard that her hands were raw and bleeding. My poor mother, buying me the best foods, toys, new school supplies and new clothes, my “best mother in the world”.. I wanted to be rich and famous,  and give her a life of luxury. I wanted to be a movie star (a movie star..  with severe tics).

    I stopped all contact with her in May of 2013, then in January 2014, I sent her a message through a third party, and nothing since. But the mental torture was not over: who is good, who is bad….???

    Did I resolve it by now? Can I say: yes, in my life, she was a bad person? Yes, I can say that. That in itself doesn’t make me a good person, but it makes it possible for me to be a good person. And so, I’ve been working toward becoming a good person. The more of a good person I am becoming, the less mental torture/ the more peace of mind (the bird flying in the sky experience). It is very important to me to not be a good person the way my mother was to other people: falsely complimenting them (profuse flattery), being generous with them, giving them things she bought with her work scrubbing with raw hands, and then complaining that they are taking advantage of her, etc.

    Well, I said that you are helping me. This post is my effort to help myself further because of you, because you were kind to me. I will see with some time, what difference, if any, this post makes in my mind and heart. I want to fly a bit more.. although sadly, the sky is hazy with smoke because of wild fires/ global warming.

    anita

    #382846
    Murtaza
    Participant

    Dear anita, you said “we are equal” when i read this from you it was just a word, in your recent replay, i truely believed we are equal.

     

    being famous: dancing or singing in front of huge audiences, being a famous movie star, celebrated and worshipped by millions

    I think this desire comes from the unmet needs of this young female, to be seen and acknowledged, to be important in the eyes of people, to be loved, you are kinda famous here, and you are liked by the members (i suppose?), but its only because you help them (another assumption), not because you are you, you want more then that(another assumption:D)

     

    but in my communication with you, I am somewhat flying (!)

    I wonder why? I have some assumption to why, but i don’t like to assume stuff when i can simply ask the person

     

    I’m impressed by your detailed and great reply” (a compliment)

    I feel like the word “compliment” has been used to mean “saying nice things to people even if its not true”, but im guessing you know that i don’t do that (lol).

     

    As im replaying to you, im deleting/re reading your post, to make sure that i don’t say anything wrong or bad, its because your post is important both to me and you That you shared your personal life, and im not very good being antia i guess (lol)

     

    a compliment to you before I proceed: I think that you are brilliant!).

    Thank you, just to be sure (lol) do you mean overall or there is something specific? Just to know what i did to get this compliment (lol)

     

    She also told me while hitting my face back and forth with her big hand

    This actually makes me sad, a bit frustrated, because this happened to you, and that i can’t change it, that its outside of my control, to hear this abuse without having power to do anything.

     

    Sometimes when i remember my loneliest time, i would imagine there is a person with me, and he comforts me, hold me, have you ever had such thoughts? What was the scenario i wonder? (again, skip if its too personal)

     

    but I also thought that she was the problem.

    I would imagine that even thinking of this is a bit taboo, that your mother, the best mother in the world, that has no husband, and yet works for her only child, provides for her, so whenever you thought she is the problem, you would feel guilty of that thought, your logic and mind made you feel guilty and ashamed, “how dare you even think of that?”

     

    The thing is, that mothers are highly valued in society, doesn’t matter if they are bad.

     

    The conflict has been the mental torture all along: the back and forth internal fight between contradictory evaluations of myself and of her.

    I would guess that at first and for a long time, she would win, but when you started to not care about her, to not value her that much, the conflict get less and less

     

    She repeatedly threatened to kill herself (I remember her showing me her wrists, showing me where she would make the cuts)

    I would imagine that you loved her even if she was bad to you, and that you blamed yourself for that, she blamed you even

     

    she said she had to do it because of me, because of something I said, or should have said but didn’t

    How did you felt back then? What was your response? I would imagine you being afraid of talking, you being afraid of just existing next to her, that even if you don’t talk, she will blame you for it

     

    and because of what I was thinking. I didn’t tell her what I was thinking. She told me

    She is very narcissistic i see, she not only controlled your action, she even wanted to control your thinking.

     

    This torture harmed my brain: I developed severe OCD with elaborate compulsions and severe tics (Tourette Syndrome) starting at about 5 or 6 that further tortured me as I experienced social ridicule and rejection.

    I am very sorry anita. I feel both hate and anger towrds the person who did this to you, and empathy and affection for you

     

    I wanted to be rich and famous,  and give her a life of luxury. I wanted to be a movie star (a movie star..  with severe tics).

    I can feel this replay, its not just Sadness, there is more, especially at the end.

     

    being generous with them, giving them things she bought with her work scrubbing with raw hands, and then complaining that they are taking advantage of her, etc

    This is similar to what my mother would do, i would add that she thinks she is a saint by doing so, and that she is just a victim of the bad people surrounding her (though i should say im not comparing my mother to yours, just this quality)

     

    Well, I said that you are helping me. This post is my effort to help myself further because of you

    It actually helping me too, i see some of qualities of your mother in my own mother, and how you saw them and dealt with them helps me understand.

     

    because you were kind to me

    Now that i heard a bit about your past, i want to be even kinder 😀

     

     

    Btw i assumed many stuff to A. Tell you what i understood from your post B. To correct me if im wrong in my understanding, i also asked few personal things (i deleted some) so feel free to skip them, i appreciate that you talked about your life.

     

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