Dear antia, i understand.

Dear anita, thank you for your satisfactory reply

There is no Solution to this Problem

That’s what i wanted to hear, why go around this and say love yourself or that healing can fix this problem

your thinking is wrong and therefore you need to change it

Before i answer this, i must say that im not trying to manipulate anything, and im gonna try to be as honest as i can, i do think my thinking is wrong, but by wrong i think its wrong by society standards (which can be beneficial to the person) aka “i must work”, its wrong by almost objective life standards, i say almost because objective life standards is a norime standard, the way we programmed to live, and i know that i won’t be satisfied with that life, imagine its like this, you put a monky in lions cage.

and loving oneself cannot possibly provide a lifetime substitute for a person’s need to be loved by a separate person.

Why can’t teak just admit that? Why she insists that the problem must come from within me? How about that i live in the wrong place with the wrong values and goals? If you say that i won’t argue, if you say that your goals and beliefs are silly and wrong i won’t argue, but if you claim that i don’t love myself, you either bring a solid evidence or drop your claim, isn’t that fair? Im only asking for the truth, whats the truth? I don’t love myself according to societal love to oneself? According to the man made love? Sure

and your opinion about the thinking of the majority of people (aka “normies”) is very, very low.

As it should be, in this post there was only one person that understood me, there was 7 people who replied, none of them acknowledge anything i said, they all just go around the truth (just like teak did when i mentioned the example) ignore my logic, just because it touchs moral issues.

You are very, very confident that your thinking is right

Let me correct you, my thinking is right for my life and experience, and i believe there isn’t an objective one (correct me if im wrong in any points i do)

you stated that you don’t believe in god

No no, i can’t believe in god, this thing (philosophical suicide) wasn’t meant for me, i simply can’t believe in something without evidence, and yes im not perfect, i sometimes believe in things with very little evidence, but i should say that freewill wasn’t only from observation, there was few people that talked about it, and i was convinced, it actually was the breaking point to leave religion

the arguments start: a member (like I did plenty) says gently or harshly: look what you wrote here (quote).. it doesn’t make sense, let me correct your thinking!.. And look what you wrote there (quote), you are wrong, Murtaza, wrong, wrong

This bothers me because they usually don’t provides anything against my main argument, they don’t provide any logic to why im wrong, just “oh no you can’t do that, you must do that” why should i do that? No answer

Murtaza then says: no, you are wrong, you don’t know what you are talking about!

I believe that the way i was bulit and the result of me right now is a proof of my difference of people, whether that difference is good or bad, the thing is, people mostly helps by projecting thier beliefs and values “no you can’t kill yourself, thats bad, human life matters” “this is a bad thought” “freewill exist” “love yourself the way i tell you to”, so when i say you don’t know what you are talking about, its because they said something that was meant for people like them, the norimes, a person who has nearly same values and beliefs, that good and bad can be separated, that freewill exist, that god exist, that thinking positive will somehow makes your life better, you must understand that i came across so many people like this before i get “very very confident” and to this day, if anyone said anything about my life, i would feel gulity and re think my decision, a never ending cycle i had to stop

And what is the point of these arguments- why does Murtaza waste his time this way.. and why do members waste their time this way…?

Because arguments usually involves understanding the person mindset/points before arguing, its the only way i change my mind about things (and i say this because it happened many times), for an example a friend of mine manged to convince me to get a dog, i was convinced by his argument and i wanted to buy one (sadly they are too expensive in here), since understanding is a big thing i lack,  because my mother never gave it to us, and its nearly my number one need for love, so i peruse it, honestly one of the best times is when i have a good argument, and i did plenty in the past about freewill and religion, watched many also

Because Murtaza has a lot of time in his days and nights, and he has nothing better/more interesting to do with all that time

Thats another reason, but im very careful on who im spending my time with, i usually disregard anyone who show any sign of norimeness, not worth honestly

conscientious people don’t want to be given that kind of responsibility, thinking something like: oh, oh, if I don’t give Murtaza a good argument and evidence, his blood is on my hands!

Yes, morals stops them, they sacrifice the truth for a society bulit values, but i never saw it like this “responsibility” cause how they gonna make it worse? Im already fixated on death lol, they can try to make me see other point “which they didn’t btw” most of them just disregard my argument as depression or suicidal thoughts, im not even suicidal these days, and the post i did seems like a long time ago, and im better now, but im still holding to my argument because i think its true, but i thought that for once someone would come and say the truth, someone did, but not directly

this is a public forum, anyone can read it: no conscientious person wants this kind of responsibility

Reading this im thinking of “norimes”, i actually would do that, and i think that if there is people like me they would do that too, felixable when it comes to morlas and values. Thats another reason to post stuff like this, for like minded people

What are you really getting out of posting

Winning arguments that makes me feel good temporary:D, seeing norimes, the idea that i bulit, fit the definition, i just like to expecting something bad and it happens, it just makes me think that im a realist, i dropped the norime thing for teak, and it went nowhere, just like i expected, but i like her, she somehow reminds me of the people that i could connect with without my mindset, too bad

One thing i didn’t expect was you getting angry at me, i did expect and still do, that you would stop talking to me, but to think im bad is another, should expect more bad things:D

makes time pass more easily, better than doing other things or nothing at all.

Not with norimes, unless im laughing

words among the thousands that you will be reading today from people all over the world

Believe it or not, this site is my only way to communicate with people.

will make a significant difference to you?

I wonder why there is a need to do that? Why can’t it be just beautiful words, but i remembered that this site, and what you do here mostly, is guide people, make a different in there life, advice them, hear them out, giving them validation.

I think that the answer to this question is most likely: Nothing, really.

They do makes me smile when i read them, sometimes shocked by the replay, how beautiful it is, but i guess you don’t believe in the butterfly effect:(

You decide, you choose- to reply to me, or not. It is a bit of free choice, or free will, isn’t it: to type or not to type, to argue or not to argue, to answer this one person but not the other.. little choices like these.

Poetic:D, so i would imagine that your reaction the other day “anger” was your choice? You might say, “the reaction to your words wasn’t my choice but how i reacted to it was my choice”, then i would say “that your choice of reacting in someway or another was very much determined about your mood and your day” you could not show your anger on a post, but what would that take? To get back to that exact moment and to have what you had back there, all the atoms and exact mindset, would you do differently? If so why didn’t you? I wonder. I think that this is what im talking about when i say that we don’t have freewill, there is simply so many factors that influence our actions that outside of our control, and there is no one to pull the trigger behind any of those actions, just desires and beliefs competing.

feel that you are the Only One in Pain,

No not really, millions of people suffer Endlessly, im not suffering that much, infact i have a somehow decent life, but i don’t like when they start comparing suffering, its silly because not all people alike, some endur more suffering and some don’t, why even try to compare? And i hate when someone says “i was like you”, NO, and you never will, thinking that if he was like me then he must know what it feels like to be me, how it feels like to live like this, and therefore he can advice me, i tell you if i met a person like me, i would never advice him, because i know people like me don’t like advices, and whenever a person start to advice and say that “i was like you” thats a red flag that he is a norime, im not saying that he isn’t suffering, nor that my suffering is greater, i just don’t like it when they start projecting.

What are you really getting out of posting

There is this thought “maybe i will get what i want somehow they would just give me what i want” appears always, and i tried so many times to do what it says, unconsciously, hoping that i somehow get the solution, the love, this is what teak talking about when she says “just accept your inner child” she has no clue whats hiddening there, to this day, i still hope that the next teak or antia post give me what i want, before i would go talk to stangers online, somehow, and in someway, remind me of this saying “people look for love in strange places when they didn’t have in thier childhood”

Dear antia.

I woke up today, i had a lot of dreams and you know that feeling when you dream so much and wake up feeling werid, i touched my noise and it felt like it the first time, i know what the dreams were about, but i don’t remember any, but i remember feeling love, having intimacy.

I read and re read your replay, im glad that you shared your morning with me, i don’t want you to think that i don’t read or care about what you say or you in general.

No need to argue with me about it

Sometimes i just add a comment, sometimes its silly comment just to let you know that i read that thing you wrote, but from now on, assume that if i didn’t replay to a specific line from your post, it just means that i had nothing to say, and when i try nothing comes to my mind

I’m gonna try to be as honest as I can”- good, me too

One question comes to my mind, and if its too personal ignore it, what exactly made you angry with me? So i can avoid such thing in our future conversation, i actually avoided asking you any personal question, or anything that seems personal, intentionally, i remember that when i first talked to you, you were very strict about those, and i respect that

but it doesn’t mean that it is really is wrong for you to be unemployed: you decide for yourself.

I think i mentioned my problem with jobs, especially in iraq

as long as your behavior that results from your thinking is not asocial

I try not to harm people with my individuality, unless they require me to do something i don’t want to do (e.x my mother wants me to finish my school)

if your questions are clearly stated, and a person answers you unsatisfactorily again and again, stop asking that particular person

This is one of the reasons of labeling people as norimes, because it would give a good explanation why those people disregard my question and lifestyle, and its a good explanation, and i agree with you.

 I didn’t mean that you, Murtaza, is wrong. I did and do suggest that arguing is useless.

As i stated, i believe that there is some people that can argue with me and maybe provide a better logic, thus i will either admit my lose or just lie to myself (i perfer the first because its easier) and from experience i did admit my lose many times.

Select who you are interacting with instead of interacting with everybody and arguing.. and arguing.

True, but i like showing norimes my argument and when they accept it/ignore it silently, it only proves my point, and its somehow a norime check, lol.

I didn’t notice this in your thread.

I didn’t spend any much real time and effort on the people that showed a lot of norime sign did i? Teak had a point, and i wanted to see where it goes, she sounded just like my therapist with a bit of an upgrade

if it looks like the person means well, send them a short post saying thank you, a polite acknowledgement- instead of ignoring them or replying rudely

If we are talking about me being rude, you know how much i get offended by thier posts and replies, how much i consider them rude? Why should i take thier rudeness? I can’t say thank you to someone who i don’t appreciate thier help, and i don’t see the point of being nice with holding what i really want to say, i won’t be that guy, who holds what he want to say because its nicer, it only hurt me because i won’t like myself very much then.

it is not a good idea to bring up suicide as an okay item to consider on a public forum

I never said it was a good idea, one part of my qualities is to say things people don’t wanna hear, to tell them the real things that happens for some of us, those people that don’t have much voice, people won’t hear them

Because this is what I believe- I will not participate further in such discussion on your thread/ in these forums.

I didn’t mentioned it for discussion, i already know your opinion, and it doesn’t actually matters anymore.

I feel some anger now because you are arguing again!

Im sorry, i was only showing you my pattern of thought, how i see freewill, and i gave a real life example

You don’t even need me to participate in the argument, you imagine what I would say and argue with what you imagined I said

I consider the other party responses and what he might say, i assumed that you gonna say that so i prove my point in one post, if i asked you and we go back and forth, it would take a while

seems that your anger was triggered by my mentioning of Free Will

I was very calm, i only mentioned it to support my argument against freewill, since you seem to think (which is my fault) that i only use it as an excuse, i won’t say that i don’t, i will provide a soild argument to why i think freewill doesn’t exist, but i will only do that after you say that you want to participate in this argument, and don’t view it as “argument” its more like both parties understanding the other points and give a better explanation, its growth

The term free will triggered your anger because when a person X uses the term, believing that it exists, what it means to you is that X is telling you that you are to blame, that it is your fault.. it’s the guilt you referred to before

It didn’t triggered me, i will tell you what triggers my anger (the ones i know and aware of)

when a person misunderstand me, and when i try so hard to make him understand but he won’t because of some moral issues or some belief he made, its more frustrations then anger, but i feel both when this happens

When a person claim something about my life without evidence (aka you don’t love yourself, my life is similar to yours)

When a person think he is allowed to tell me what to do or what to think or  feel, what to believe and what to value

I ask that before you reply to me (if you do, I never expect it, but would like it if you reply)- please calm down

In our current thread, you never triggered my anger, and i won’t response to any of the freewill subject until i hear your permission.

seems to me that what triggers your anger when someone says “I was like you”/ when another person compares themselves to you, is that it feels like the person comparing is negating you,

I never thought of it this way, but today when i thought about it, i may knew the answer, when a person compares his life to mine, he usually is got over this period, so what i imagine when he start advising is (im better then you, i got over this, i just did this and this, you can do that if you want), actually it mostly like this when a person compares and start advicing, the superiority thing bothers me, he think that he is superior then me and allowed to tell me what to do, and that i must not know whats best for me, correct me if im wrong, and this is a new thought so its more like a hypothesis that i might change, but from what I’ve heard its always like this “i was X too, you just need to do this and this (give examples that worked for him and thinking that it must work for everyone)” by that i feel guilty for not doing X, and i remember that i did X long time ago, and it didn’t work, and that i think and feel different from them, and that there is no proof that he is like me, and even then he can’t advice me.

It is like it is either you are valid or the other person is valid

I think when a person start to throw silly advices on me, its just projecting, the part that bothers me that he/she think he must be right and this is allowed to say, in my world its very rude to tell a person what to do, especially if you only know what he showed to you via internet

How do you know when it’s there for you, can you tell.. if it goes away, was it ever there.. when it returns, will it stay?

It depends on the definition of love, if its a feeling, then i don’t pursue that, i meant that i somehow get a girlfriend, this is what im trying to kill, and i had to experience so many painful things to prove to myself that no such thing exist.

One of the reasons that i don’t pursue the feeling of love, because its not under my control, i only foucs on the things i can control, feelings aren’t, but i welcome them when they come

Let’s see what happens, think of this as an experiment: I felt love for you, then I didn’t, then I did again,

I actually don’t think its mysterious at all (my opinion, i respect yours) i think that when i feel love because of an image and a belief, and when i don’t because this image or the belief start to change, (e.x i saw that sara is lovely and felt love for her but as soon as the “she doesn’t love me back” belief start to kick in, i lost the feeling, as it should be) i never love anyone who doesn’t love me back, and yes i control such thing, lol, i don’t know but its one of my powers you can say

Since when i said that “yes anita you are true” and i followed it with “not accurate” from now i will try to be as detailed as possible, and as short as possible (without repeating hopefully

even a dream about being close to another person in a loving way makes us feel real

Its more like when you dream so much that you feel werid when you wake up, since i didn’t remember the dreams, but only felt them, werid.

“Is my understanding in this paragraph 100% accurate?” You answered: “Yes anita, as always”

If i remember correctly at that time, i saw your understanding (the bigger picture of it) as true, when i said it wasn’t accurate (there was few definitions and words that i would’ve changed, but the bigger picture still true, the result is the same, i just re read your post, i apologize, i should’ve been more clear, so now im gonna state what wasn’t accurate in your 1-4 points (its repetitive from my past posts, so skip if you don’t care anymore)

1) your pessimism is a disease that is eating you alive

I said pessimism as a shortcut, i admit that one of my problems is that i don’t care about the other person opinion of what i say, thus i mostly say anything without seeing the other pov, back in the days it used to hurt when i look at myself through people eyes, still does, so i didn’t anymore, so i might say some things that hard for the other person to understand

To answer your point, i don’t think its just pessimism, i believe its a collection of things (personality) a full package, not only pessimism, not only a desire not to change, not only a few bad beliefs about the world, not only a horrible attitude towards life, not only a strong need for truth, not only apathy, not only a desire to be independent, the whole package put together, makes it more like a disease

2) there is no cure for it, no hope whatsoever to live without this disease

As stated above, its a full package, inside this package is a desire not to change, even if there is hope to change a few things about this package (personality) it won’t allow him, so i wouldn’t call it a disease, because there is no cure, one example of this package is apathy, now if you ask how to cure apathy, the answer most likely would be “to care” (i know it isn’t that simple, but in a way or another this what they say), the thing is the cure and the disease is the opposite, imagine if someone has too much apathy, how could you blame him for not caring? Its like blaming someone who has diabetes, one thing to do is to add motivation (something that he loves) but even then he can be apathetic to such, if you see anything wrong tell me, i haven’t thought very much about this

What im trying to say its more like a paradox, you need the cure to be cured, but how can you have the cure when you have the disease? Im thinking of your response “black and white” because apathy is degrees right? It still wouldn’t change my argument.

3) the only way to stop the disease is in death

The only way to change is by death, or a similer scenario from 1948 (when the main character get tortured to change his views) i know the latter doesn’t exist, but the first can be done

4) you have good times but those aren’t worth it

I believe that its not very much about the good times, but more likely how i see them, i believe even if i had the best life possible that i still wouldn’t consider it worth it (unless ofcourse i have a different mindset)

Give me your 2-4 lines straightforward, clear definition of the term, and we can see if we are talking about the same thing

In your above post you said that it angers you thag i argue, so i asked if you wanna argue about freewill (so that i don’t ignore your definition and what you said about it)

To answer your question, my definition would be “an action that doesn’t has an uncontrollable cause” to support this definition i should say that i believe everything has a cause “determinism” and that every human action has a cause, to take your example “you don’t hit the dog” i would say that its determined on what comes before, the good example would be that you sometimes can’t control your anger and sometimes can, do you control this ? Or is it somehow depending on the situation? Ofcourse thinking that you in control, believing in such, make you more in control, but im not talking about whats the better believe, im talking about what is true

I should say that even when i don’t believe in freewill, i do think i can control my emotions and feelings, im not removing the will itself, but when i do not control my emotions or feelings, i simply know that there was too many factors that i simply cannot know that interver with my decision, in a clear example (why did i not control my anger in scenario X and i did in scenario Y?) I believe that we create reasons based on our understanding, but when it comes to reality those reasons aren’t even close, for example they did an experiment with people and asked them about things while giving them hot and cold water to hold, thier answers was different depending on the temperature of the cup, if its warm they answer more nicely, if its hot they answer more harshly, imagine this little thing, this external thing can change a whole answer we tell ourselves, then how would we change our minds when it comes to the internal?, i sadly don’t have any evidence for such experiment happening, though where i heard it from is a very reliable source (to me maybe), its sam harris, a modren neuroscientist, he actually  influenced me a lot

There is more depths in the freewill subjecte, but i wanna end it here to see your response, to just mention something, little morden philosophers believes in freewill, there is “compatibilism” which the majority of people now believe in (because of determinism).

To back to your post

when a person is arrogant, thinking he/ she is superior to you and therefore is here to tell you what you should think and feel so to.. be less inferior that you are (?)

I think that people see what im currently in as a (phase) and that they all got through it, it  underestimate my suffering, and they advise under this assumption, and i hate when someone underestimate my suffering, especially when comparing, when i see the result of thier life, they have a normal thinking brain, less apathy, a desire to change, and they dare compare themselves to me

and yet others are nice people who do not see you as inferior to them, people who are really reaching out to you with a pure heart

Nice people? ture, can they help  me? False, is thier help appreciated? nope, because it only makes me mad or frustrated, or gulity, i won’t lie and say thank you, the best i can do is ignore them, the worse is to answer them in a passive-aggressive way.

i just don’t want thier help, although this means most people, and it actually makes me sad, that i lost nice people for that

I can see that they do not have it all-together, far from it

I wonder if you want to criticize me what would you say? (Anything allowed ofcourse, and don’t think if its hurtful, i can take it)

Also, you’d think arrogant people are confident- far from it).

Its only a mask to hide the low self esteem or other things, i believe that some of my arrogant comes from that, since i have this really low self esteem

this is the healthiest/ wisest thinking I read/ heard in a long time. I am positively impressed!!!

I never thought i would be called healthy lol, thank you for the temporary confidence boost lol