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SereneWolfParticipant
Hello Tee,
My absolute favorite would be a nature walk with my husband, but since I am suffering with mobility in recent years, this is one thing I had to practically give up, and it’s very hard
Oh I can totally understand that. Nature walk are really soothing. And I guess even more when you’re walking with your S/O. I hope you get healthy soon so you can continue your nature walks
Oh I see… so you are always on the lookout, fearing that somebody (perhaps your boss or an authority figure?) might be displeased with you and lash out at you (verbally)? So you’re afraid of being judged when among people?
I mean I know they’re professional they wouldn’t lash out at me that easily but easily disappointed because of something? Yeah! But yeah I’m afraid of being judged
You also don’t like people who are constantly critical and try to dominate you (I guess because they remind you of your father?):
Yes Exactly!
I wonder if perhaps your mother showed some of the manipulative behavior in the past, e.g. when she would tell you to be “mature” and not react angrily to your father?
Hmm I guess so?
Could it be that you are sensitive to other people’s anger/frustration/negativity (because it reminds you of your father)? And that you are also sensitive to “weaker” emotions, perhaps worry and sadness, because it reminds you of your mother?
I guess it’s bit of both? One of the reasons why I haven’t been enough emotionally expressive. Because I’d feel like I’m being rude and insensitive to others
I like the word! Good if you can appreciate her honesty and emotional expressiveness. You don’t feel like she is trying to manipulate you with her emotions, right?
Well that’s easy to answer as of now. Because you know when some people give you bad vibes even though they’re acting nice with you? So, I don’t think she’s manipulating with her emotions.
Another thing is that it’s hard to know if she’s emotionally mature or not. Because so far I do like her innocent emotional behaviour. She’s like a naïve little girl who doesn’t like to bottle up emotions like we “mature” adults do
What feels like the biggest work in your current relationship? What’s the hardest?
Self esteem, Being emotionally expressive, Being compassionate with myself that’s what I can think about now
Yes, you can’t be the only one “carrying” the relationship. Or as we’ve talked before, if you are trying to change the other person and be their therapist, then of course it feels like hard work. Because you are trying to work against their own self-sabotage and their resistances…
And it took me years to realize that 😂
Well, you’ll see relatively soon that the person has a lot of issues, they can’t be happy, they are addicted, they are self-sabotaging, they are playing hot and cold (one day they are very into you, the next they are rejecting you and being distant) etc etc. So you’ll be able to notice that something’s not right, that they are fighting an internal battle and can’t be really present in the relationship. And then you’ll let them go, instead of trying to “save” them…
Right I agree few days ago there was this reel on my IG. She was like after you’re healed, It’s really easy to see red flags everywhere. And dating will be even harder because you wouldn’t just settle with anyone. And there are lot of people who doesn’t even know that they need to heal their selves.
Are you talking about the decisions you took in romantic relationships? Like when you followed your intuition and it turned out to be the right decision?
Haha no I mean like workwise decisions. But good question when it comes to romantic relationships, I didn’t felt like I’m taking a big decision.
Well, I think everyone who was exposed to prolonged emotional abuse suffers from CPTSD. It’s a different name for developmental trauma – it didn’t happen suddenly, like one traumatic event, but over a long time, i.e. while growing up. So I guess you have it, same as me and numerous other children with emotionally abusive/unsupportive parents.
Oh right I agree and I think that’s also the reason that it’s giving me nightmares sometimes
Like just last night I had a dream that my father was angry at me and comparing me with someone but this time I didn’t listened, and I got angry at him and told him lot of things that I wanted to tell him! It could be the sign that I still haven’t forgive him and I’m carrying that baggage?
Right… so you’re still afraid of their judgment. You still care what they’ll think of you, and I think it’s because a part of you still believes you’re not good enough. So you need their validation and approval.
Yeah which I think it’s really concerning thing to work on
Yes, you were criticized a lot, and you internalized that voice, and so now you don’t only have the voice of your father and grandfather against you, but also your own inner critical voice. So it’s 3 to 1. Three critics to one helpless inner child. Fortunately, you’re developing the positive father voice to counter those critics. But it takes time, it doesn’t happen over night…
Yeah it’s years of their sweat it doesn’t going to just disappear over night😂
But I won’t give up. I’m stubborn too so 😌
What exactly did she suggest you talk to them about? I mean, if you still have an unhealthy emotional bond (which in my opinion is the fear of their judgement, i.e. the need for their approval), only you can release that bond. Only you can set yourself free.
Because as you said, your parents will likely not change. They’ve changed somewhat in the sense that they (specially your father) isn’t that judgmental with you any more. But I guess they’ll never approve of all of your decisions, e.g. they’ll never approve of you getting a tattoo
What I am saying is that if you want their blessing to live your life as you please, I don’t think you’ll get it. And I don’t think it’s necessary either. There will be always something they will disagree with. And that’s fine.
What you’d rather need is to free yourself from the need to get their approval… It’s you who should set yourself free, not them…
I mean I know what you mean and I agree. But she suggested me kind of things that I’m feared to talk to them I already know their response (Somewhat) It’s just kind of practice not letting my fear of speaking for myself to be grown even more..
Another thing I know my parents did things knowingly or unknowingly. But I don’t want to be a typical American psycho kid who thinks it’s cool to have not good relationship with their parents because of the rise of modern business “therapy”. Because at the end of the day the day they are part the family, and family does matter. And I’m not saying I want perfect relationship with them because I know it’s not possible, But just not hateful relationship.
This week it was my birthday, I’m in my late 20s now. And oh dear I definitely felt like “Time is passing too fast” I mean I know it’s normal and there wasn’t any critical voice this time. But it does feel that time is going too fast and I don’t know what I’m trying to get a hold on, World is moving fast, I don’t know why am I feeling pulled down and if I don’t, I feel like I’m missing out a lot as of my age.. I guess we always run for big achievements when we think it’s meaningful but after we’ve achieved it, It just lost it’s meaning.. So it’s like a constant chasing something that we’re sure we won’t be satisfied with…
SereneWolfParticipantNamaste Tee 🙏
I am doing a bit better at the moment, thank you. I do say this very cautiously because I’ve had improvements before, followed by a setback… but I am starting to feel a little more optimistic…
I’m glad to know that. Hope you’re having a good weekend. I have a question. What’s your absolute favorite thing to do on weekends that isn’t productivity related?
You mean, when you are among people, you worry what people will think of you and you want to be liked? And you say things you don’t really mean, or something like that?
Hmm not sure about that. But my main concern is I don’t like when people feel discomfort around me or specially because of me. It could be because of my childhood wound as well. You see my father’s anger was always on the edge so whenever he was around even he was calm I was anxious that at any time he’d flip out so I was constantly anxious and worried about his mood swings.
Well, you said that being among people drains your energy and you don’t know how to protect yourself from that. So I asked what are the behaviors you can’t protect yourself from. But I guess the real question is: what is so draining when being among people? Perhaps what you said above – that you feel the need to “people please”? As in, maybe you feel the need to be liked, and so you can’t be yourself and relaxed?
Okay I got it and I think It could a long list but generally I don’t like manipulative behaviours, and most of the time I can sense when people are trying to manipulate me or the others.
I also don’t like being around people who are always projecting negative energy and criticizing others all the time. Or when they trying to be dominant with me for what they want.
But I believe particularly sensitive to the emotions of others, and I kind of struggle with managing my own emotions in response to others.So she is emotionally expressive – she expresses her emotions freely. She is not shy to show anger and upset, but also joy and excitement…. if I understood you well? How do you feel about that feature of hers?
I do think it’s kind of a healthy thing since I like things straight forward and it’s something that is easier to read from her? In my previous relationships none of them was this much emotionally expressive I had to ask them things so they can let out things you know.. Yet still I wasn’t sure about it. But Now I have this newfound appreciation for this kind of emotional authenticity? (Don’t know if that’s a right word)
Yeah, I’d say that in the relationship department, so far you were alternating between a bad connection and no connection. You gravitated towards “no connection” in the past months, because you were disappointed with previous relationships. But then you decided to still give it a try. And now you’re in the middle of an experiment, of potentially creating and maintaining a good connection…
Well yeah I guess so.. But now I’m realizing how much more work that I have to do.. and it feels like a lot
Hm.. I think that because of troubles with self-love, you easily get into the inner critic (or the outer critic), which then sabotages the relationship. So I think that for you, lack of self-love is what keeps you out of the relationship. Or when you are in a relationship, it prevents vulnerability and intimacy (because you’re afraid to be judged). So, although you may be in a relationship, you don’t really engage in emotional giving and receiving. I mean, it seems that so far you haven’t. Now, in this latest relationship, this might change…
Oh yeah that is right. So I need to work on healthy emotional giving and receiving.
Actually, when both parties are emotionally more or less healthy and free to be themselves, a deep intimate relationship isn’t that hard to maintain. It sort of flows spontaneously… But a lot of work goes into getting to that point of being emotionally healthy, that’s true.
Yes but finding that kind of a person isn’t easy either. With me, I got really emotionally invested and thought I can work and maintain on these things but yeah it’s definitely a two-person job.
There are no guarantees that she is “the one”. But as you grow emotionally more healthy, you’ll be able to recognize people who are wholesome and healthy themselves, and you won’t end up wasting your time in draining relationships…
Hmm really? How I’d be able to recognize that?
Yes, be mindful that a lot of those questions (“What if I get bored, what if I am wasting my time, what if I get to like her and will need to work hard to maintain the relationship?”) are coming from your fearful self. They are fear speaking through you. And you are learning now to face this fear, not to get into its trap again. So yes, be mindful, just notice it as a strong voice in you, however it’s not the only voice in you. It’s not the voice of your true self.
Yes I agree it’s nothing less than going on a war with my own self. Fighting with my own fear. Thing that I’m trying to do is that trying to make notes from my past where I took decision and I was right about it so my rational mind don’t always ask me question about it and be little more confident you know.. and I guess It could affect my self-esteem as well. But if you have better suggestion you’re more than welcome
Yes, surrender as in accept the things as they are, even if they are bad at the moment. And hope that they will get better… so yes, I am learning to accept it, but also not to lose hope…
That’s good! Keep it up! 😃
Wrist, ankle, forearm, underneath the collarbone, hip area… I am no expert, but am sure there are a lot of ideas on the internet.
I do have Pinterest board but it’s been a while and it’s not easy to choose.
I also had an appointment with my therapist. She told me I’m doing quite good progress. And I talked about CPTSD as well. So listened things carefully and ask me lot of scenario type questions about my childhood. But she said she isn’t sure about and said there is really mild signs about it. But still we can work on it.
One of the questions that could be helpful for us.
So she already know that It’s been a while that I’m living on my own.
So she asked me What happens if you buy something expensive without asking your parents? How they’d react and how you’d feel?
And I said I’d still feel hesitant about it because I’d be worried what they’d think and feel guilty because I haven’t even asked them.
So she asked me questions like that and said I still have fearful emotional pattern that I need to work on. Even though now I’m financially independent now I’m still attached to this kind of unhealthy emotional bond… She actually suggested me to talk more with my parents about this kind of things so they would be aware that I’m much more grown up than what they might think
Fearful emotional patten and self-esteem these two things mainly she gave me homework for… Because like we talked, she said because of long term of criticism from every side (even my inner critic) My self-esteem took lot of damage and I have to heal that…
SereneWolfParticipantHola Tee,
How are you doing?Definitely it’s a good experiment to try to socialize more and see how you feel about people… if you still feel they’re very different and you feel like an alien?
Right but I’m kinda getting that I still have people pleasing behaviour
Are you saying that she gets upset by something (some human behavior), and this same behavior doesn’t affect you that much? Or she gets super excited about something, and you’re like “meh, nothing special”?
Yes kinda like that.
And there was also a bad connection, I’d say, during your LDR. Because that relationship was mostly frustrating for you, right?
Well yeah I guess we can count as a bad connection
Yes, for example we should love ourselves and feel lovable, without needing to get love from someone else. Or we shouldn’t feel helpless like a child and wait for someone else to fix our problems. I think those are examples of emotional self-sufficiency.
But I think because self-loving is still isn’t easy for me maybe that’s why I’m finding myself going towards emotional giving and receiving
Yeah, you’d probably like to fix the problem ASAP and make them stop (crying, or being upset or whatever). Whereas the best thing you can do is to simply listen and show empathy. You don’t need to fix anything, and your partner doesn’t even want it, in most cases. They only want empathy and understanding (remember that short video about the nail in the head? )
Yes I do remember that well and as I’m practicing empathy, but I guess because of my work, my problem solving abilities takes the turn first you know 😂
Oh I see… you’re filtering all critical and unsupportive people from your life… cool! good strategy!
Thanks hahaOkay, so you can ask yourself: what if I like her more with time? What’s the worst thing that can happen?
Umm a serious hard maintaining relationship that I have to work hard for!?
Or what if I feel bored with her after some time? And like what if she is not on the same page as me?
Exactly the thing that I’m scared about… Wasting my time and energy on a person
She is different than the usual type you’re attracted to (insecure, low self-esteem). I think that’s what’s scary because you can’t apply the usual tactics of your outer critic, which would be to see her as inferior and imperfect (which would then serve as an excuse to distance yourself from her). The inner critic is trying to sabotage you, by telling you you are worse than her in some respects. But nowadays you’re watching for the inner critic and you’re not believing everything it says. So the inner critic isn’t managing to sabotage the relationship so easily either…
But something in you (hint: the inner child) is still afraid, and so you’re coming up with these what-if questions, which serve the same purpose: to sabotage the relationship. My suggestion is to notice that too: that these what-if hypothetical questions serve the same purpose, and so not to give too much weight to them. If you want to try to push through the fear some more…Hmm so basically be mindful and not overthink about these things? Well I’m trying and yeah you’re right I maybe comparing myself like that but I know that we both don’t have be perfect in every regard. We can just learn things from each other…
Thank you! Yes, it’s hard when it gets physical, when it’s your body that aches and there is no escape from pain.
Yes I can understand even though I don’t have much experience with physical pain but the thing is I did spent time with people close to me in the hospital and it doesn’t feel easy.
I feel that I could much more easily deal with emotional pain than with physical pain.
Well at least one less thing to worry and you worked on yourself all these years, so I guess that’s why it’s much easier for you
Because I can’t just think about it differently, so that it doesn’t cause pain any more. Although I think I can still be telling myself a positive, optimistic story, or I can be telling myself a negative, hopeless story (like that I’ll never get better). And that too makes a difference… But it’s hard, there’s no doubt about it…
Yes, it is hard. When I talked to my therapist first time, she explained the Surrender in that way. Because as a human nature we want to know things for sure, Otherwise because of uncertainty we get anxious.. and result even more less energy… So I believe surrender + hope are much better in situations like this..
What’s the worst kind of behavior that you feel you can’t protect yourself from?
Hmm I’m not really sure 🤔
I guess I have think back analyse more
You meant like behaviours that I can’t tolerate?No, I don’t have any tattoos. Not my style, and besides, I’ve got many birthmarks, so I’d worry about damaging those. So no, no tattoos for me
Oh that many birthmarks? So it’s like your body jewelry?
If you worry about how the tattoo will look, I’d choose a spot which doesn’t depend on your muscular mass. So somewhere where it always looks the same, regardless of how fit you are
Hmm and those are? 😂
SereneWolfParticipantHi Tee,
Yes, definitely. I mean, a part of the problem could be that you’re an introvert and you don’t feel good in large crowds (I am like that too!). But a part of the problem could be that you see people as different, and yourself as alien, and this might contribute to feeling trapped or endangered in some way.
Well yeah you’re right and that’s why these days I do try to socialize more. (As an experiment) That’s why I noticed that and I told you… I’m just too much comfortable with my own company but I do need to get out of my comfort zone without draining my energy. And I’m an ambivert.
In what sense? Can you give me an example?
Like for me I’m not much emotionally expressive. Or like I just don’t get surprised with lot of human behaviour or things. I find it really normal. But her she like really emotionally expressive like a high school girl who feels too much you know 😂
Great! At least you’re aware what to watch out for, and even if you start comparing yourself with others, you can recognize it as an inner critic mechanism, and know that it’s a lie, it’s an illusion, not reality.
Yes! And before there was time where I used to just blindly believe everything my inner critical voice told me because I didn’t know the difference between my own self and inner critical voice.
Well, this term “emotional self-sufficiency” just kind of came to me, I haven’t read it anywhere. I did look it up now and it has both positive and negative connotations. But what I meant is that we are wired for connection (Henry Cloud’s video “Why it’s important to stay connected” talks about it. I mentioned it a while ago and I think you watched it).
I see but this term is pretty self-explanatory so I get it, And Yes I’ve watched the video and I told you that I’m mostly between good connection to no connection back and forth
Healthy relationships are good for our health and well-being. For example, married men live longer. And for women, those women live longer who have a network of supportive friendships. So emotional giving and receiving is very important. In that sense I said that emotional self-sufficiency isn’t a good thing: it’s not good if we don’t have emotional exchange and connection with anyone. And if we guard ourselves from it.
It doesn’t mean we should be needy and clingy. Someone who is alone can be happy and fulfilled too. But someone who is emotionally healthy will not guard themselves from emotional closeness with safe and supportive people. Because that’s what makes our life richer and more enjoyable…
Hmm I see so you mean there should be a good balance right?
So you’re afraid you wouldn’t know how to react if your partner is sad or anxious?
I mean I know what to do but I just overreact in those particular situations and try to make them in better state ASAP otherwise I feel anxious as well.
I guess you’re filtering out the very strict and judgmental types automatically – you’re not attracted to that type of girls. I mean, your current girlfriend is self-confident, but she’s probably not judgmental like your father, so it doesn’t trigger the escape reflex immediately?
Haha I don’t remember I’ve been with any strict and judgmental type girl even as female or male friend. Creating the good supportive circle you know? 😌
But I think that possibility of turn this into something else is just scaring me like what If I like her more with time? Or what if I feel bored with her after some time? And like what if she is not on the same page as me? So questions like this as well her different but confident persona is something I feel…I think that’s just an excuse. Because there are girls who like traveling and exploring similarly like you. Maybe girls wouldn’t appreciate some reckless feats, if that’s what you’re into. But definitely there are adventurous types out there, with whom you wouldn’t need to miss out on anything.
Well yeah I know but because I still haven’t met those types girls much it’s just my old belief I guess
Staying positive and optimistic in spite of persistent health problems and chronic pain….
Inner and outer you’re dealing with both of these things which isn’t easy at all. I’m proud of you and I hope you progress better and healthier way with that. 🤗
Absolutely yes. It’s when our rational mind is not in the forefront, and we’re in touch with our senses and our intuition… that’s when the best ideas come…
Yup. I love it!
Maybe this is same problem that you were talking about above – you don’t like crowds because they drain your energy? But maybe it can be applied to certain people too – they drain your energy and you don’t know how to protect yourself from that?
Yes exactly and I don’t know how to protect myself from that for sure!
As for not falling asleep in the afternoon, how about watching some of those videos on your watch list? (Turns out it was already on my watchlist but I still haven’t watched it.) Because for me, such videos (not all, but with good presenters) can be quite captivating and not something I’d doze off with.
I agree! And turns out I already watched that video and when we were talking about implementing new things for fresher employees. Video was one of the reason for that idea! Also it made me think deeper about vulnerability as well as empathy. And how important connection is… But another thing I liked about the video is the storytelling. As a Leader I think it’s really important skill to cultivate.
I see… well, how big of a tattoo are you planning? If it’s huge and sort of “in your face”, it might not be good from a business perspective either – if you want to present yourself as a solid business person. But if it’s something more discrete, it’s very common nowadays and not a big deal. And if it would make you happy, why not…
Haha Nothing that shows too much. Like not on the face or neck. But l prefer around the shoulder, back, hands, biceps and maybe chest. But yeah mostly desecrate. Yeah I know it’s normal nowadays but there are two things. One judgment from my family and another thing is that gaining enough weight so tattoos look much better. Have you got any tattoos though?
SereneWolfParticipantHi Tee,
Next week I have an appointment with a new doctor, so I am hopeful but also slightly apprehensive, because I’ve been to several doctors already and no improvement so far…
Oh I see, I can understand but who knows maybe this one can give you much better results? So be hopeful. Update me when you do give a visit though.
Okay, so you feel very different than others, like you’re some alien. That’s probably because your true self wasn’t appreciated by your parents or grandparents (or other adults you grew up around). You were constantly judged and criticized for being yourself. So you believe that you’re fundamentally different from other people, which isn’t true.
However, you might have developed a defense mechanism that keeps you away from others and makes you fear others, as if they’re going to harm you. You might be looking at people through that lens, magnifying the differences, seeking imperfections in them etc. This lens, i.e. filter is what actually creates a greater sense of distance between you and others. I think this filter is creating an artificial sense of distance and difference, which in reality doesn’t exist.
Hmm that’s right. Is that could the same reason I can’t spend longer time around the crowds? Because it just drains my energy…
You said is about yourself too (or a friend of yours said it about you, I don’t remember anymore?). They said that you have a heart full of love, but are afraid to share it with others. And it’s true. Because you fear others.
Ah yeah my friend told me about this for myself. But yeah I agree there is fear
Yes, vulnerability is actually a strength. There is a famous TED talk on vulnerability by Brene Brown. It describes how she, who was someone who feared vulnerability, discovered the importance of vulnerability, by studying hundreds and thousands of happy people. She discovered that vulnerability is actually a prerequisite for happiness. You can enter “Brene Brown vulnerability TED talk” in youtube search and you’ll find it. Really powerful stuff.
Thanks for sharing I’ll watch the video. Turns out it was already on my watchlist but I still haven’t watched it. Still lot of articles left to read as well. Don’t know where the time is going lol 😂
It’s good that she has this strength! Because she won’t be playing games with you. She will tell you what bothers her and what she would like from you.
Hmm I hope so… She seems quite sensitive
But I want to add something here: try not to compare yourself now and think “oh she has this strength and I don’t. I am so much worse than her” (which would be your inner critic). Rather, try to appreciate her for her ability to be vulnerable. You too will develop this strength, and you’re on a path to do that. Because frankly, till recently you thought it was a weakness, and a part of you still thinks it’s a weakness. So it will take some time to change the old habits and beliefs.
Oh yeah you’re right I’m not comparing and I am aware that I’m capable for cultivating good emotional patterns for myself (Or at least I’m trying)
You’re welcome, you are making a great progress! Actually, we humans are social creatures, and we’re meant to be interdependent, not independent. I mean, we’re not meant to be emotionally self-sufficient (if there is such a word). We’re not meant to be in a relationship with only ourselves, and not to be bonded to anyone. Being independent is good up to a point. But if you want to be emotionally independent and self-sufficient, that’s already a defense mechanism.
Wow! So this challenged me for lot of things that I’ve consumed in reading and watching over the years. And kind of really challenging for my old belief. But If you have any recommendations for articles or videos or just you want to explain by yourself you can elaborate more this with me. Because I do understand what you mean but I don’t have clear picture just for meta thinking with myself you know
The other part of the problem might be that in a relationship, you feel trapped, like a fish in a bowl of water. And I think it could be because you see the other person as a threat. As very different than you. As judging you. As wanting to control you and suppress your true self.
Yes exactly I do feel trapped one of the reasons I’m scared for commitment. But mainly for controlling because their actions would affect me a lot emotionally. Like if my partner is anxious or sad it affects me directly.
You probably see the other person as your father, and it’s threatening your freedom, and you want to run away. You want to be free, like a fish in the river. You ran away from home, because of this feeling of being trapped. And now you want to apply the same coping strategy to your romantic relationships: run away, be free from “threat”. Would you say it’s true?
I don’t know if I see other person as my father because then I believe I wouldn’t even want spend lot of time with.. I don’t know how to explain properly but yeah I guess I’m running away because that feeling. But there are other reasons as well. Like It’s my curiosity so I’m just striving for exploring more and novelty so I don’t feel like I’m missing out..
You’re welcome, it’s a pleasure to talk to you and help you on your path…
Haha I’m glad. Currently what kind of emotional patterns that you’re working on?
Yeah, I find that visiting the same places in nature – the places that I like and enjoy – is totally okay, because they recharge me. And they are never the same, really, there is always something different to appreciate…
Totally agree and sometimes it kind of gives me solutions out of nowhere have you experienced it before?
Glad your job isn’t boring. Then I guess simply spending time at home, comfortably seated in front of your computer, and being alone, naturally makes the person want to take a nap If you were in the office, you would need to control yourself better, but like this, it’s easier to just doze off… So if you want to avoid afternoon slumps, I guess one solution would be to work from the office more frequently
Haha I don’t think that’s a good idea since being around with lot of people for a while takes up my energy a lot. Heck even if it’s just a single person and if I don’t like spending time with him/her it just drains me. Same goes for outside work as well. But I’m aware as for my position I do have to learn to overcome this challenge.
Okay, so you’re still afraid of their judgment? Both your father’s, grandfather’s and your brother’s judgment as well? Btw what’s that “something crazy” that you’d want to do, but are reluctant to (if it’s not too much to ask)?
Hmm so I’m thinking about getting a tattoo. And my grandfather is always saying “not nice” things about getting tattoos so whenever I think about getting a tattoo for few minutes I do feel good and think about ideas and etc and after that I overthink what would my grandfather say? Sure he wouldn’t like it.. same for my father.
And actually a while ago I stopped this kind of thinking what others or even my own family is thinking about me but I think I’m kind of back to this
SereneWolfParticipantHey Tee,
my weekend was fine, thanks. Still doing the same health-wise, so my leisure time isn’t as active as I’d want it to be, and it’s not a good feeling. I hope things will change for the better, sooner than later…
Oh I hope you’ll be better. You still haven’t found a good doctor?
Yeah, you got impatient and started pushing her. She didn’t like it, and it was this superior-inferior dynamic, rather than an equal, loving and mutually supportive relationship. But I guess you’ve realized by now that this isn’t how a relationship should be, and that you shouldn’t be the girl’s therapist.
Yup I think I’ve learned my lesson there haha
Uh-oh… it’s not good news for the girl then Yeah, you said earlier that you find it easier to bond with animals than with humans… If we miss someone, it means we created an attachment (a bond) with them. And I guess since you are afraid of attachment, you don’t easily create a bond… and so you don’t really miss the person either. At least this is how I am understanding it…
Yes, I think you’ve explained it well. Also most of the time I have to try to blend in around strangers, Other times I’m like what these humans are? How I could even be the same as them? Like I’m some alien 😂
She did miss you, because she told you so (she wanted to text you to tell you that, but she deleted it). And she was upset that you didn’t text her. So she did miss you indeed… I am glad she isn’t angry with you anymore!
I’m starting to think there are lot of people who have heart full of love and they would love to share their love but it isn’t easy. It needs guts to trust on that level and vulnerability. And now I’m thinking as like people’s strength. And she certainly have this strength. For me admitting to someone that I miss them is really hard. Heck I don’t even remember when I did that last time.
Great, fantastic that you can enjoy the present moment more, without overthinking too much and being scared. And it’s amazing that you’re realizing you are not hard to love!! That’s wonderful, SereneWolf, really a great development!
Thanks! you know realizing this makes the process of loving myself little easier. But it made me think like if I rely on that feeling doesn’t it make me dependable? Which is against one of the values that I have. Being self-independent.
And I think you know the answer to “why have I been so hard on yourself for so long…?” Because of you having being judged and criticized as a child, and developing that harsh inner critic. You were made to believe that you were hard to love, when it’s not true at all. And now, as you’re starting to have more compassion for yourself, you’re starting to feel love for yourself too, and that you’re not hard to love… the inner critic is getting weaker, as well as that old programming…. I am really happy for you!
I agree and after getting stepped up from these old programming I don’t want to step back and just keep rounding for the same things and waste my physical and emotional energy. So I’ll try to spend more time in journaling and convincing my inner child even more. So he doesn’t see this as like bowl of water but more like a river…
Great! You’re being mindful and repeating those affirmations, and it helps you stay in the present moment, feeling love, rather than fear…. Wow, amazing! I am proud of you, SereneWolf!
You’ve put quite a time and effort on me as well. So thanks to you too. I’m grateful to have a supportive friend/mentor like you 🙏🏽
Yes, you feel intimidated by those you feel “less than”. The goal is to feel “good enough” and worthy always, even if someone is more talented in some areas than you…
Yes that’s something I’m struggling with… I feel like I’m threatened or challenged
Right… okay, so perhaps you didn’t seek praise and validation so much. You rather wanted “results”, like the drill sergeant wanting results from the novices. It could be that you adopted the persona of your father a little, who was also quite critical and impatient with you. Only you tried to hide your impatience with your ex, while you father didn’t temper himself at all, he gave you the full power of his anger…
Yeah even in work I’m really result-driven. So you’re right I may have adopted his persona. As I’ve told now I’m much better at managing my anger and be calm as possible. Because to be honest after I started practicing spirituality nothing seems like a big deal to me.
Okay, wish you luck with finding a good remote job! But while you’re still tied to one place, could you go travel on the weekends and spend time in nature? So reserve the weekends for adventure and “battery charging”?
Thanks for your wishes! And I already do that on weekends. But I want to visit different places every weekends not the same places. But yeah it’s true that even though most of the time I’m visiting same places now it doesn’t bore me because spending time in nature does recharge me so well.
Well, maybe your job is a little boring? But does it also mean you’re working mostly from home and no need to go to the office?
My job isn’t boring. Or I guess now it seems boring because I saw more exciting opportunities? haha.. and currently I’m working on hybrid mode. 2 days office and 3 days from home. They wanted the other way like 3 days from office but I convinced them for 2 days lol
So you dreamed about your father, grandfather, brother and you all getting angry and yelling at each other? Not at the same time, but first your father got angry with you, and then you and your grandfather had a fight, and than in the next dream you and your brother had a fight, right?
Yes!
It could represent anger as the “modus operandi” among the men in your family?
Well all 3 are impatient and gets angry real fast so…
And that it affected you as well?
I think for impatient part yeah I guess so
I mean, that’s only my suggestion. What do you think it represents?Umm I’m not sure but I still may have fear? Like still if I want to do something crazy I know they won’t stop me but my mind first think like what they would think about me and judge me or something like that
SereneWolfParticipantHola Tee,
How are you doing? How was your weekend?
That’s interesting… since therapists are vowed to confidentiality and they are non-judgmental per definition. But some people are like that with authority figures, and maybe a therapist in her mind meant a judgmental authority figure, and it scared her… But it could have also been an excuse, because if someone rejects therapy, and hasn’t even given it a try, it usually means they don’t really want to change in a deeper way…
I guess so yeah and I was just worried so much about her healing that I didn’t even try to look from different perspective, and I believe after a while my “drill sergeant” just started being harsh on her
Well texting all day (i.e. making it the only way of communication) is tiring, but this would have been more like a check-in text, just to show you’re thinking of her. And since you were at your parents’ place, you had an excuse why it would have been only a short text..
Haha yeah you do have a good point. But when I was at my hometown tbh only thing I really missed was my cat 🤣
I am not sure it’s more connecting, but it’s a good replacement for texts. If you want more connection, a phone call would be much better, in my opinion…
We talk on phone call but not that much frequently…
Okay, but she could have texted you too, if she was so keen. So it’s like she expected you to text, and was angry when you didn’t, but she hasn’t texted you either. She only admitted later that she wanted to, but then deleted it. I mean, I understand she is upset and feels like you don’t care, but she could have texted you first…
I know right!?
But I think I know the advantages of physical relationship now. We met this Saturday evening, and her anger was gone. She hugged me with good warmth like she actually missed me. And we did have a good time together. She even cooked for me. but surprising enough I don’t feel much scared now because I’m not overthinking much and like we talked about mindfulness I’m just trying to enjoy present moments more… Because this different kind of feeling makes me feel like I’m not hard to love then why I’ve been so hard on myself for so long and not being compassionate with myself?
There’s good quote from Lord Krishna which I remembered so, Love when you can, Tomorrow isn’t promised. so I’m just reminding myself kind of things like this which could help me for loosen up my heart shield.
Well, your fear is still strong. That’s why you rather play it cool and uninterested. You’re doing the avoidant pattern.
Yes exactly!
And it could lead to breakup with time, specially if she expects a normal level of interest and dedication from the guy. And I guess she does, that’s why she is so upset. So yeah… you’d need to decide what you want. Do you want to challenge your fear, or you want to succumb?
Well I can try to challenge my fear
The perfectionist likes to fix people whom he sees inferior than him in some way. It’s more like a defense mechanism, because if you see the person as inferior and in need of fixing, then you feel safe because you feel you’re above them (“better” than them) and therefore, they won’t judge you.
Ah right also the reason why I don’t feel intimidated around them and not alarmed…But with people “better than me” I do feel intimidated.
Thinking about your 3-yr long LDR, perhaps the perfectionist in you needed to receive praise and validation from her, because this is something you were missing as a child. But it could be that she didn’t give you too much praise and validation, because you said she often sabotaged your meetings, didn’t listen to your advice etc?
So I am thinking now that your perfectionist fixer is possibly a reaction to not receiving praise and validation from your parents? And trying to get it now in romantic relationships?
I do think so it could be like that even though lot of time she did praised me how I’m helping her but all I wanted was seeing a real change and actions which she didn’t.
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that interview… sorry you didn’t get the job. But then again, at least you’re clear now with what you want: a position with more responsibility, fully remote. How come you’re sticking to fully remote btw? So you’re more flexible with where you live?
Yes because of the fully remote job flexibility. I also want to start travelling more because I think connecting with nature is really healing for me and I feel so calm. One of the reasons why I’m trying so hard.
Alright, so you’re doing that Mon-Friday, during working hours? You’re having long naps in the afternoons, and then you need to work late to finish your tasks, right? Perhaps you can introduce a short walk (or even a bike ride) in the afternoon, to freshen you up?
Yes during work hours! But I’ve tried what you suggested but now I’m feeling sleepy at early evening time 😂
Sure, no problem…
Thanks. So I’m not sure it’s related to CPTSD. But like just last three times in raw I had nightmares about my family members. First night my father getting angry and then my grandfather and I yelling at each other and then next day while taking a nap, my brother which is surprising because we’re very close to each other and it did felt really unpleasant and depressing. I wasn’t even able to do meditation properly in the morning.
SereneWolfParticipantOla Tee,
yes, it’s emotionally draining, specially when you see the same issues come up again and again… and nothing changes.
Yes Exactly! And that repetition was making me angry a lot but I bottled up my anger.
Yep.. people who don’t want to seek therapy usually don’t want to really help themselves. They tend to complain and maybe feel a bit better when you encourage them, but this only lasts for a short while and they slip back quickly into their old patterns. So no real change happens.
Yes and I’ve tried but perhaps she had even deeper trust issues than me, so she didn’t wanted to share anything with a therapist (Or a stranger as she’d like to address)
and even for me I don’t think moving from old patterns is that easy.Yeah, that’s you not wanting to show neediness and vulnerability. So there was a moment when you did feel like texting her (that was a spontaneous impulse), but then you shut if down, for fear of appearing needy.
Yes I think so, Also because I’m kind of bored of texting but if I rethink in person I’m not that much better. So I guess I just need more “in-person” practice.
Well, your fear got in the way. You can still repair the damage, if you’d want to…
I did tried it. I’ve tried to encourage for voice notes since it’s time-saving for both of us and also more connecting? And seems like she’s okay with it.
But yeah she’s definitely not a person who forgives you easily. I could notice that from her tone of voice😬😂What are you telling yourself, i.e. what’s your internal dialogue, which makes you believe it will soon end?
That I’m not ready for this and she’s gonna turn her back anytime.
Correct! We hope to change our parents, and then we hope to change our emotionally unavailable partners, but we don’t succeed. And it leads to disappointment.
Hmm so for expectations like this it’s just a perfectionist inside me trying to “fix” others? So as we talked I still need to work on my acceptance part gradually.
Remember that I told you about the interview? Turns out I didn’t got that job. But Now that rejection made me feel like no matter what I want more responsible fully remote position like that. So I started to apply and got more rejections and now I feel even more down
And nowadays I’m also getting crazy afternoon slumps. Like after 1PM I can’t of think anything but eating and sleeping. I’m taking more than 2-3 hours long naps and then be like oh day is already ended.. So now I’m mostly finishing my work at late night. It’s been like a month! So kinda it turned into a habit.
And yeah I also want to go deeper into CTPSD things we’ve talked about if you don’t mind
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
I have, but he wasn’t helpful at all… so I’ll keep looking. And thanks for your support!
Ah I see, Hope you find a really good doctor that helps for your health much better
Yeah, supporting each other is a natural thing in a relationship. But if it’s one-sided and you’re “supporting”, i.e. trying to heal her all the time, that’s not healthy. I mean, you’re not her therapist, you’re her boyfriend. It doesn’t mean you can’t talk about issues, you sure can, but deep emotional wounds can only be healed in therapy, not in a romantic relationship.
Yes I knew that well but since she wasn’t comfortable opening up with therapist I felt like I should help her much as much as I can. But in result it just emotionally drained me because yeah it was one-sided help. And it sometimes it made me question myself like does it even matter to help people? because at the end of the day they’re going to do just whatever they want.
Okay, I like that she was honest about wanting to text you, but then deleting it. So she showed her vulnerability after all, even if at first she wanted to hide it.
Yes I do feel bad though. Because in short time she’s quite vulnerable with me and I’ve disappointed her already.
How come you didn’t text her at all while you were away? Didn’t feel the need, or you stopped yourself because it would have seemed “weak and needy”?
Well kind of yeah both reasons I didn’t feel the need and when I did feel it I was like let’s not rush she’s going to text if she wants it, Why should I seem needy first? That’s what I was thinking
Right… what’s the first thing that comes to your mind when she says “I miss you”?
Overthinking and fear I suppose. Like now relationship is gradually getting deeper but soon it will end
Yes, we (our inner child) is trying to finally get our distant/unloving parent to love us. Only now it’s not the parent but our romantic partner whom we’re trying to change.
Hmm I see…
but we believe we can finally turn them around”
But we actually can’t and that’s what disappoints more. Right?
Okay, so if the inner critic can still make you believe you’re not good enough, it means that your inner child feels not good enough. And you’d need to tell your inner child that he is precious and talented and lovable, and that there is absolutely nothing wrong with him.
I do try to pep talk with him time to time.. but not much frequently
When those thoughts of “not good enough” start popping up in some form, try to be like general Iroh to your inner child and tell him how precious he is. And that whoever tells him differently is a liar and doesn’t know a thing!
You’re right! I’ll try to do that more
Be aware of it. I think the main duality in you is 1) the inner child who is afraid of judgment and believes he is unworthy, and 2) the protector (which is the shield around your heart) who wants to protect your inner child from harm. But he is doing it by wrong means – by shutting down intimacy and vulnerability altogether.
What would need to happen is that you be a good parent to your inner child and assure him that he is worthy (as I described above). And you also assure him that you’ll protect him from other people’s judgments and mistreatment (by setting boundaries, learning to say No, etc), should there be need for it.
So you, the adult SereneWolf, become the good and healthy protector for your inner child. Like a good father. That’s how you can replace this unhealthy, toxic protector, who is the Outer Critic/shield around your heart.
I hope it’s not too messy the way I’ve explained it?
You explained it well. You already noticed the main pain points. And yeah it’s been days I haven’t been a good parent to my inner child but feels like work when you already feel emotionally drained you know
Good! If he isn’t trying to put you down, isn’t yelling at you etc, that’s great.
Naah he doesn’t do that to me. It’s been a while, he used to do that a lot in past
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
I’ve visited my hometown and it was good.
Still no good news unfortunately… I am going to see another doctor and look for other treatment options, because so far I had no relief.
Ah I see, Have you already visited another doctor? What did S/he? said? Take care of yourself.
Yeah, and it might have even led you to believe that she doesn’t appreciate you enough, because nothing you said or did managed to convince her to open up to you and change her attitude.
Yes Exactly!
We might even feel bad about ourselves for not being successful in “saving” our partner (I don’t know if this was the case with you?) Whereas in reality, their rejection doesn’t mean that we’re not good enough or not important enough, but it is the consequence of their own internal issues. And that’s something we can’t do much about if they aren’t willing to help themselves.
Yes I think it was the same with me. Because I did felt like I’m the responsible for “saving” her since I was in the relationship with her so I used to think as her best supporter and a lover it’s my responsibility. Otherwise what am I even doing for this relationship?
Oh so she started seeing a therapist after you broke up, then she stopped, but now she started again, after you told her you’re seeing one too?
Yup
Hm… hard to say. There was a study in the US, I think, where they said that around 50% of people are securely attached (which would lead to being an emotionally healthy, non-traumatized individual). In other parts of the world, with a more patriarchal society, I am assuming this would be less. I mean, this is just my assumption and I am no expert, so please take this with a grain of salt. But it could be that at least half of the people have some kind of childhood trauma.
Wow so I think 50% means still there’s good chance. Although I’m surprised since US consumes more anti-depressants than any other nation. As per statistics more teens and women.
Well, you spent 3 years being in a relationship that was very frustrating to you most of the times, but still you say it was a comfort zone. So perhaps being with someone with low self-esteem is still more comfortable than being with someone with healthy self-esteem, whom you’re afraid might judge you?
Hmm I don’t know if I feel judged, Just not sure since I’m still not spending enough time with her but yeah I do feel lot different (but not in a bad way)
And yeah she seems pretty upset because I didn’t try to contact her while I was in my hometown, and today she told me that she actually texted me “I miss you” but then deleted because she thought that I’m not missing her so she shouldn’t admit that either. But we’re meeting this weekend so let’s see what happens. and tbh I already feel scared just because she said “I miss you”
Well, I think you had higher self-esteem (at least in some aspects) than the girls you were with so far. So you were the “savior” in the relationship, right? You were trying to fix them and help them. You had less problems than them, so to speak.
Yes that’s more accurate from my part.
And it’s a pretty common dynamic. We’re often attracted to people whom we think we can “save”, people who are emotionally unavailable or troubled, but we believe we can finally turn them around. That all stems from our childhood and the dynamics with our parents…
Oh I see I didn’t know that. So it’s also related to PTSD we’ve talked about?
I guess it’s your protector part that says “If she doesn’t want me, I don’t want her either.” But your emotional part (your inner child) attaches quickly to her and wants her all for himself. So the possessive reaction seems like an inner child reflex in you. But the ego part says “no, I am cool if she doesn’t want me, I am totally fine alone”.
Oh yeah it could be like that! Like I said before about duality, What to do about that?
When we feel worthy and valuable as a person, we don’t get jealous about the qualities that other people possess. Because no one possess all the gifts and talents in the world – someone is talented in one thing, another person in something else. We are all special and unique in our own way.
So if you feel that she is e.g. more energetic than you, you can appreciate that quality of hers, rather than seeing it a threat, or as something you’re missing. Because you’re happy with your own gifts and talents, you don’t feel deprived. Does that make sense?
Yes It does makes sense. And since I’m practicing more empathy I do see more good qualities that people have around me..
And another thing: I think you too are pretty energetic and fierce, considering that you started living alone at the age of 16 and all other things you’ve achieved in your life. So I think you’re not seeing yourself clearly and are selling yourself short. Again, that’s the inner critic that gets activated and convinces you that you’re not good enough. So when you start hearing that voice telling you “look at you, you’re so weak, why aren’t you energetic and fierce as her”, you can tell the inner critic to shut up and back off.
Thanks for the reminder! I think even though I’m getting enough reminders inner critic is still isn’t fully silent.
So I think you can do two things against the inferiority complex. One is: appreciate other people’s talents and good qualities because they’re not a threat to you, because you have your own talents and gifts. And secondly, silence the inner critic who wants to make you believe you’re lacking in so many ways, when you’re not.
Thanks I’ll do that. First one isn’t seems hard but yeah second one does seem hard
No, you don’t need to try to change him, or encourage him to seek therapy. People like him (similar to my mother) are set in their ways. They don’t believe they have a problem either – it’s more like everybody around them has a problem, but not them. Someone who believes there’s nothing wrong with them and there’s nothing they should change about themselves won’t be open to therapy either. Trying to get them to go would be futile.
Yes exactly! You’re right if they don’t even admit that they have the problem so there’s not even a question to work on that.
What you can do though is stop him from talking disrespectfully to you (if he still does). Maybe you can sometimes disagree with some of his judgmental comments and remarks that he probably passes around frequently. But don’t get into an argument with him. Just express your opinion respectfully, not expecting that he would agree or change his view.
He doesn’t talk disrespectfully to me anymore. He talks more calmly to me, Explain things to me.
But if you see that that’s futile too, that he starts arguing and you get drawn into an argument, you can spend less time in his company. That’s how you can protect yourself from his critical and judgmental attitudes, even if they aren’t directed at you.
Since I’m not living with my family I already spend much less time with my father.. and even when I’m home I mostly spend time with my siblings and mother.
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
You haven’t updated me about your health in a while. So, tell me the good news?
Yes, I see… she had very low self-esteem, and felt ashamed of herself even in front of you.
Yes, I guess it was one of the reasons I felt more hurt even after reassurance, time and trust it wasn’t enough for her.
Although to be honest, I don’t know how one can be critical and superior, but not judgmental? Because acting with superiority kind of implies that one looks down at the other person as not good enough…
Hmm I guess because I still admire and value their good qualities over the ones that I don’t like?
So to me it definitely seems like an unhealthy parent-child dynamic, even if you were trying to be as patient as possible, and would only get upset occasionally.
In fact, I guess you were upset more frequently than you let on (we’ve talked about it already), so she could probably feel your disappointment and frustration, even if you tried not to show it. And even if you managed to hide it, it was still frustrating for you, right?
Yes exactly!
Yes, it does. But it’s in vain, unless they work on it therapy…
Because I talked to her after a while and I said I’m seeing a therapist, She was bit more enthusiastic about seeing the therapist again
Oh I see… so she felt neglected because her little sister “stole” her parents’ attention. And she probably felt not good enough and not lovable enough because of that. That can very easily be the cause of her low self-esteem.
Yes that’s what I’m thinking
Yeah, it’s always a recipe for failure to be in a relationship with someone who cannot love themselves. If you’re attracted to such girls, who seem needy and in need of your help – that’s something to be aware of and to work on. Okay, the doctor is certainly not that type, But in general, if you feel better being with girls with low self-esteem, that’s a problem.
Okay so just a general question. Suppose we go out and take 10 random people and out of those 10 people what do you think how many would be loving themselves as they should?
And I know I’m feeling different but I also know that I’m not afraid of change.
But I’m also thinking it’s could be like similar to comfort zone thing? Because I’ve mostly been with girls who had low-esteem so now I feel just more comfortable with them
Or it’s like a attraction thing low self-esteem attracts low-esteem? 😂
Maybe you feel those other guys will steal her from you?
Hmm no, I don’t think that way. I believe that we’re dating now because she chose me and I chose her, That’s a freedom. I don’t care if some guy is trying to steal her from me. If he’s able to steal her from me and actually do then congrats to him but I don’t like to compete when it comes to relationships. I’ll be just trying be myself. If she wants to be in, be in, or out, just happily out. For me it’s like if someone one else capable of steal her from me, it’s making my commitment decision easier for like now I’m sure you’re not the one.
Ah it’s like you start judging yourself for not being as energetic and fierce. So instead of appreciating her energy (which you like, as it seems), you start judging yourself for not possessing those same qualities. Your inner critic gets activated… So be aware of that: how you start comparing yourself with her and seeing her as superior, and you as inferior…. and this is another recipe to ruin the relationship. So be aware of your inner critic…
Haha yeah that’s right. I think nowadays I’m doing comparison and get jealous even though I don’t like it
And what should I do about this superior and inferior thing other than try to see all as equal?
I’m at my hometown at my parents place and I did noticed that even though his behavior is better with me. With others he’s till same old narcissistic person who think whatever he thinks is right and others are wrong. I don’t know if I should just accept that he can’t change or if I should fight for it even more. Because the thing is that he doesn’t believe in therapy even a bit. And I feel sorry for my mother because she have to live with him.
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
Does it mean you did video call after all during those 3 years? Or she shared video notes with you, but never talked to you in real time on video?
No I didn’t. She did shared lot of video notes with me. But didn’t talked on real time on video. She be like she prefers to take videos 2-3 times after she thinks those are “good enough” to share. You seeing the issue here right?
I see… she was shy and insecure, and thought people would judge her. But you tried to assure her how beautiful she is, both inside and outside, and that she has nothing to be ashamed for. That’s really sweet and supportive of you. And it’s absolutely not critical or overbearing.
But she did say she felt a sense of superiority from you and criticism, and it could be that in some areas you were indeed more critical, such as her health and diet? Also, perhaps you felt frustrated with her for not accomplishing some of the goals that she set for herself?
So you mean to say even though I wasn’t being critical but it’s how she perceived me because of her issues? That’s wasn’t even in my control so..
But Yes because I was worried about her mental health more. That’s why I wanted her to sleep properly and have fresh and healthy food. And at times I did felt frustrated and she said sorry to me lot of timesNo, I don’t think it was. The truth is that it’s hard to be with someone who has low self-esteem. No matter how much we love them, they can’t love themselves and it ruins the relationship.
Yeah I totally agree! Lot of the energy goes into reassurance
I see.. maybe some dynamic with her siblings was going on, which made her feel less than and not good enough…
So the thing is her parents didn’t waited much longer. Like first her and then directly next year her little sister. And I guess after that they found out it’s good to wait to give proper time. So after like 10 years another kid, her brother 😂
And her little sister got attention more than she wanted to. So she’s totally different from her. No matter what her parents says she doesn’t listen and super stubborn with her parents because she knows that her needs going to be fulfilled.I don’t know either, it was just a hypothesis. But now I see that you weren’t that critical with her as I thought… so maybe you weren’t overbearing after all, but just frustrated with her consistent lack of self-esteem?
I was frustrated for sure! I think it’s one of the reasons I gave up on that relationship. Because If I’m putting time and effort, I want to see progress. work or relationship.
Alright… so the doctor seems to be the polar opposite of your first LDR – self-assured, daring and not afraid to show her attributes and stand out in the crowd She also took the initiative with asking you out, so… yeah, she is different.
She’s different. Like different than any girl I’ve been with.
Well, in fact, we can have our discernment and still not be judgmental. If you’ve noticed something fishy (e.g. if she flirted with other men), it can be a reason for caution. But if she’s just vivacious and feels good in her own skin, that’s not the reason to judge her.
I mean she wasn’t flirting with them. But it’s kind of my problem even though It was only a first date I did felt possessive so.. It happened to me a lot of times even though I don’t like to be committed I do get possessive quickly
Good! So she seemed honest and authentic with you?
Yes. She actually complimented me that she didn’t met good listener like me in years. I guess I did improve my empathy skills 😌
You say you felt intimidated, and that it’s because she is more energetic and fierce than you. Does it make you feel inferior and you fear that she would judge you?
Hmm yes, kind of? There’s duality. Like one side thinking is like you’re good enough as you are, you don’t need to “copy” others. And other side is like Wow how good it would feel to be this much energetic & fierce.
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
it seems your first LDR girlfriend was severely anxious, since you said social anxiety was the reason she didn’t want to video call with you during your 3-year long relationship. Which means she was embarrassed of herself even in front of you.
Yes, She was really camera shy even to take and share pics. But I had to encourage and reassure her a lot how cute and gorgeous she is (Which she is really!)
After that she were comfortable sharing pics, videos and voice notes.The above tells me that the dynamic in your relationship was that she needed to be “fixed”, and you were the one who was trying to help her and fix her. She felt ashamed of herself and not good enough, and you were tying to help her “work on it”. But probably the dynamic soon turned into you feeling as the superior one, “patiently waiting” for her to change, while she feeling not good enough and failing you most of the time. And being afraid of losing you.
The thing is that we can’t change other people. And you tried to change her, actually she too wanted to change, because she didn’t like her social anxiety and her excessive shame. But instead of going to therapy and working on it, she fell into this dynamic with you where a part of the time she was trying to please you and make you appreciate her. And half of the time she was probably resenting you for not accepting her as she is, for trying to change her and improve her. She needed unconditional acceptance (which she could have received in therapy), but instead she expected it from you, which was a mistake.
You probably stayed for so long in this relationship because you tend to slip into the controlling/overbearing father figure easily. So you couldn’t just leave because she was probably a challenge for you, and a part of you felt good being the superior one. Another part hated it, because she was often resisting your guidance, as it seems. She would sabotage your dates, cancel things at the last moment… almost like a teenage girl rebelling against her father.
So it seems to me like an unhealthy father-daughter dynamic. What do you think?
Well she does mentioned that she doesn’t feel good enough and she always think about what other people would think of her what if they judge her? Even with her therapist she wasn’t opening up properly. She thought that she’d judge her. And I guess to this day she’s still not opening up to her fully as she did with me. I tried to make her understood that it’s okay to opening up. Therapists don’t judge and everything you say is 100% private, but she’s not fully convinced. So she’s focusing more journaling and yoga and meditation.
I mean even though I was trying to “fix” her. I was trying not let her feel like she’s less than anything. Time to time I wrote her letters about her inner and outer beauty to reassure and gain her self-esteem. But yeah maybe it could be true and there was some unhealthy dynamic going on.
I think I understand your dynamic better now. As I said, I think there was this duality in her: on one hand she wanted to please you and do what you say, but on the other hand she was rebelling against you because you reminded her of her strict parents (probably). And so she was sabotaging your dates, she had a certain resistance against you.
Right but from what she told me her parents weren’t that strict, But she is the eldest sibling in the family so she didn’t got the attention that she needed. and I’m the middle sibling in my family so I think I can still understand.
So to answer your question: no, it’s not too much to ask for your partner’s attention. But this particular girl couldn’t give it to you because, if my assumption is right, she was rebelling against you as much as she loved you. It was the love-hate relationship on her part, I think.
Okay so it wasn’t entirely my fault.
Yeah, it shouldn’t be one-sided. The girl should show interest and initiative too. Unless you’re overbearing and don’t let them breathe. But if you’re not too intense, she should show initiative. If she doesn’t (and you’re not overbearing), it means something’s wrong, there is some resistance in her. Like there was in your first LDR.
Hmm I see, Understood. Although I’m questioning myself if I had overbearing tendencies
Also I went on a date with a doctor. And I don’t know what to say. She is actually more energetic and fiercer than me. And it was definitely making me feel intimidating. And her outfit was like idk too much??? Other guys were staring at her and it made me angry and uncomfortable same time. But I tried to not focus on that and controlled myself and not judge. Other than that I did had fun. She was opening up to me like we are old friends. Which I liked.
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
I see.. so it felt like she wasn’t too keen to meet you and hang out with you (online). And it wasn’t because she was super busy with her exams or anything like that? Btw was this your first LDR or the second one, which only lasted for a short time?
First LDR. And I know it’s silly but I actually was just curious about how LDR relationships are and just wanted to experience I didn’t know we would be attached to each other that much and soon like a committed relationship.
And no it wasn’t about the exams because it was her first LDR and first ever relationship. So she did told me that she’s shy and insecure, I said it’s not my first relationship but I’m somewhat shy and insecure too so.. So she said we’ll work for it. Now that’s the thing I cling to because she said we’ll work for it. But I didn’t understand sometimes it’s not easy for person just change their traits even though they want it to.
In my opinion, LDR only works if you also meet in person from time to time. You said that in your 1st LDR, you’ve never even video called, right? And it lasted for 3 years… that’s pretty mind boggling! But maybe it was during covid, so that’s why?
Yeah I know but I’m not fond of LDR anymore. Specially after I went on an in-person dates. We started it like one year before covid after she proposed. But the thing was that I saw the opportunity, I thought it’s like a blank page and together we could cultivate a real good relationship, Because I got the feeling like she’s just good and we could work for this LDR thing. It was really really hard for us. And because she said she’s shy and everything… I’m like okay I’ll give her time and have patience. But my patience turned into a comfort zone for her and she didn’t work for her social anxiety. so never even a video call.
And we did plan to meet and even decided to live together but because of covid and other circumstances we couldn’t, which made things even harder.
Yeah, that would be the first step… at least mentally, know that it is possible. It’s not a lost case from the start. There is hope!
Yes I know and to be honest I’m trying to be hopeful but it’s not that easy.. and because of that I just try to focus to be better on other areas
Because of the attachment – it is in our nature to form deep bonds with people closest to us. Our first attachment “figures” are our parents, and our second major attachment figure is our romantic partner. So what we’ve learned about love and bonding in the relationship with our parents, we carry it over to our romantic relationships. It’s the same “programming”, so to speak.
Oh okay I see…
No, being aware of it is just one part of it. Another part is emotional healing. That’s when the inner child comes into the picture, because the inner child carries those old hurts…
Ah yeah, Right! need to take care of the inner child.
Yeah, seems you’re conflicted. Like, “I need you so much”, and then in the next moment “I don’t need you at all!”. It’s like love and hate relationship. In fact, our relationship with our parents when we’re children is often like that: we need them, but we also hate them because they don’t give us what we need.
So perhaps this is what happens with you in those moments: when the girl doesn’t give you what you need (e.g. her absolute dedication), you get angry and protest. It’s like the child who protests when the mother doesn’t pay attention to him 100% of the time.
I am not saying you should tolerate if the girl is neglecting you and doesn’t want to spend time with you. I am more talking about the extremes where you maybe expect her to leave everything and spend time with you, even though she is studying for her exam (just as an example – don’t know if it’s applicable?). Maybe in those extremes you don’t have much understanding for her needs, but you demand her time, or else you get very angry? I am not claiming this is true for you, just speculating… so let me know if it applies?
Well not really. You see even it was new for me, I did told her that whenever she needs space or time she can feel free to tell me. I literally told her that “Don’t talk to me for a week or even a month if you don’t want to or able to, I won’t mind” but just let me know…And yeah at times I was seeking undivided attention but it’s only because I was giving her my undivided attention. Is that wrong?
Yes, it’s very possible that you need to better regulate your emotions. If what I suggested above is true, then the main driver for your strong emotions would be the inner child’s feeling of abandonment and anger when he’s not getting 100% attention all the time.
Hmm I’m thinking is it really about seeking attention? or something else? Because I do know well attention doesn’t indirectly mean love or affection or validation from the partner
Well, I just yesterday watched a video where they said that around 50% of all relationships among young people are online. Which is a lot! I had no idea it was so much. And I can imagine it gets competitive if one has to compete against dozens of guys online. That’s why I think it’s better to have an in-person relationship, or if you have an LDR, preferably you originally meet the person face-to-face (say on a trip or a business conference). And then you continue LDR, but with regular visits. In any case, I think that being exclusively LDR isn’t optimal because you can’t have that level of bonding being just online.
Exactly! That’s why I’m like enough and also ended my second LDR. I did felt bad because that was really my fault like even after got out from one long LDR I tried to have another one? what was I thinking? But luckily I didn’t spend much time on it so not much extra emotions.
Good that you’re still focusing on the positives! If you start finding (unjustified) faults in her, notice it and stop yourself, because maybe it’s your outer critic/saboteur in action…
Yes I will try to stop my outer critic. But I think lot of times my pride/ego comes in between. Like why I should always text first? let her decide where to go, let her plan, I won’t be doing the work alone. and like that in most of my relationships in-person and LDR I felt one sided pretty frequently.
You aware about 5 love languages, right? Mine is Act of service and Quality time equally so maybe that says something 😆So she’d like to reconcile, but you said no, and she accepts it?
Yes, I talked to her few months after the breakup.
She was like I wanted to work on my anxiety and fear, and when I was with you it got much better I never even thought that I would actually start an online relationship, be this much vulnerable and open myself to someone, but I was always trying to please you and felt insecure that If I’d do something wrong our bond wouldn’t be strong and it’ll break and because of LDR it wasn’t getting strong either.Another thing, When she told me about her anxiety and she wanted to go to therapy I said it’s a good idea. But to be honest all this time I felt like I was kind of worked as her therapist. But she only started to see therapist after the breakup. And later she found out the along with social anxiety she also has ROCD.
SereneWolfParticipantDear Tee,
In other words, if she was passive-aggressive about it (she would promise something but then always flake on it), that’s not good. But if she would change her mind occasionally, specially it wasn’t such an important thing (like how you’ll spend your date), I don’t see it as a big problem.
She did it often. And yeah if her intention matters, Mine does too. And at some point I knew I’m being overly strict about this and creating fights but I also knew like I’m not doing anything wrong just protecting something that I value more. Straight forward behavior.
Sure, keeping one’s word is important. But you also have to take into account whether it’s an important thing, like being there for you in time of need, or it’s a minor thing, like choosing which movie to watch. That’s a big difference.
Okay so in LDR, She was studying her masters and me working full time. So there was very much less time we were spending together and I felt like she wasn’t even respecting even that much little time. Just taking it for granted. Then why should I always be the first one to push things further?
having hope is key… so restoring hope and a positive attitude about relationships is probably what you’ll need as a part of your healing process.
You’re right. I’m having hope in lot of areas in my life except love part. I guess it times to restore hope for a loving & healthy relationships
Yes, if you got disappointed in your closest relationships, with people who were supposed to love you and support you, it’s hard. The fear and resistance remains in you, and you treat other close relationships (such as romantic relationships) the same.
Why am I connecting my romantic relationships to closest relationships even though I’m aware it’s not the same. It was in the past but this is the present. Wounds are there I know, But being aware about it isn’t that enough?
Yeah, this need to know everything about them at once is probably because you want to “be sure” what you’re getting into. And that’s because you want to minimize the potential harm. So I think you actually do it for your own protection – because you’re afraid of getting hurt.
That’s why you also start over-analyzing them and finding their potential “weaknesses” – all because you’re afraid of getting hurt. The latter (the over-analyzing and finding weaknesses in the other person) is a part of the outer critic – which over time sabotages the relationship.Hmm I guess that’s relatable
If you do vibe, then you probably want to make sure that they are the right match, so you amp up the efforts, you’re like all in. And perhaps you’re testing them if they show the same amount of intensity as you. And if they don’t (because they have other things going on in their life and can’t dedicate 100% of their time to you), then you’re like “no, that’s not the real thing. She’s not committed like I am”. Is that what happens?’
Yes I think that’s what happens! I do know that relationships don’t work that way. But still I do crave the same intensity if I’m putting it out there and making myself vulnerable.
and the thing is like I feel duality a lot. For a moment I’m like yeah I need her I want to spend time with her, Why I can’t get the same energy back? And seek attention maybe and another moment when I get even a little doubt I’m like I don’t need anyone or her. Why do I even need her? So it’s like either extremely high or extremely low.. No balance in between with myself.
So maybe I just don’t know how to balance my emotions in healthier wayAnd after my breakup
And after talking some of my female friends I found out that It was wrong of me to being the pushy one.
And they said like for a woman, specially in their 20s, There are lot choices available. It’s not like only you’re being good to her. So believe it or not it gets competitive even if they don’t want it to be and they can’t decide rationally or directly the way you want them to be, and it makes them quite undecisive about things.
What do you think about that?Good! So you like her and you’re actually keen to communicate with her. Are you starting to notice her “weaknesses” already?
Well I don’t think I’m finding her weaknesses already. But I think subconsciously my mind is mostly thinks how this shouldn’t work out even though things are going well. Fear of the past you know… So far I like her cheerful behaviour.
Actually, it’s okay if you don’t remain friends with your exes. You don’t need to force yourself to do it. So if you feel uncomfortable talking to her as friends, you can tell her that. But if you’re cool about it and it doesn’t make you feel uncomfortable, then fine.
Well yeah for me I know it’s okay. She does talks about past sometimes and regret but she knows well it won’t melt me. So she kinda accepted that.
Yes, if you define “challenge” as something insurmountable, and it paralyzes you, then yeah, it’s better not to see it as a challenge. But if you define challenge as an opportunity to learn and grow, and something that basically won’t harm you – then you don’t need to fear the word “challenge”. But anyway, as he said: “training mind to be less fearful about what’s coming next” – that’s a good piece of advice.
Yes exactly and as someone who have like inferiority complex and anxiety it’s really easy for me to get intimated with new things or challenges. (Except new places and traveling 😄)
So that’s why I’m working on that -
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