Hi Beni,

Thank you for sharing your experience and I’m glad there are several way’s to have this experience.

you are welcome. That experience was a key to my healing at the time. But I had some other healing work done before that, and I was in therapy too, so it wasn’t the only thing that helped me. But it was the most powerful, I feel.

Yes, that’s exactly why I do it. Thanks for helping me making it present.

I am glad you’re slowly but surely learning to open up and express your needs and your vulnerability. I am happy for you!

Hmm, yes. I’d like to have control on how I’m perceived because I don’t know what I’m doing is happening. I mostly don’t downplay anymore because it creates more confusion.

Right, you didn’t want to appear needy, so the moment you shared something vulnerable, you would backtrack, because you felt people would judge you, or reject you. But now, you don’t downplay it so much anymore, because it created tension and confusion. And I guess as you’re realizing that you don’t need to hide your vulnerability – that you are not less lovable if you show it – you’ll be able to stay with it more and more, even if might feel uncomfortable at first.

I observed the following. When I’m with people with different dialect I adopt it. I can easily be with a group and agree to every activity. I might loose my autonomy with time.
Yes, I tend to tell people what they want to hear. I feel disconnected when I set boundaries. It’s like one or the other extreme only you or only me.

I see. Well, picking up someone’s dialect isn’t such a big problem, but if you find yourself doing something you’d rather not do, that’s already a problem. I guess start paying more attention to how you feel – because if we’re forcing ourselves into something we’d rather not do, we usually feel it in form of frustration and tension in our body (e.g. a pit in your stomach). So perhaps you can take it as a signal for yourself to politely excuse yourself and not participate in the activity they’re inviting you to.

 I feel disconnected when I set boundaries.

Actually, the ability to set boundaries is a precondition for healthy relationships. There cannot be true connection if you’re not honest about what you are and aren’t willing to tolerate. If you have no boundaries, you’ll sooner or later start feeling resentment, and that ruins the relationship.

It’s like one or the other extreme only you or only me.

Perhaps that’s what’s happening to you: you tolerate something for too long (you don’t set any boundaries), and then you snap and suddenly you can’t take it anymore, and you overreact? And you go into the opposite extreme of “only me”?

I think she felt rejected. I do not have space for her pain in this situations because of my own pain.

Fair enough. What if you told her the truth and said something like “mom, I don’t feel that great at the moment.” Do you think she would understand it, or she would downplay your pain and blame you for not being there for her?

Hi Emily,

just a correction to what I said here:

Also, perhaps you work at a place with a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic colleague, who is spreading lies about you and so you find yourself in a similar nightmare like at home.

I’ve read through your posts once again and realized that right now, you work alone, on a contract, because you had a bad experience working in an office, due to people gossiping about you, taking credit for your work etc.

So I guess what I said above should be put in the past tense: you might have worked for a narcissistic boss, or with a narcissistic colleague, who spread rumors about you etc. And they managed to turn everyone against you…

I am so sorry, Emily. It’s good that you don’t work there any more. But I also hear your longing to work among people and be less isolated (But it’s bittersweet, as I really enjoyed working in a team and got on well with everyone else there until the gossiping started. So I don’t have much of a social life these days.)

I do hope you’ll be able to do that some day, in not so distant future. And I trust you can do it, since you said you were able to get along with people quite well, until the gossiping started. Which means you’re able to have fulfilling, harmonious relationships, only not with narcissistic people (which is only natural, because no one can have a healthy relationship with a narcissist).

Dear Emily,

I am not sure how my yesterday’s post affected you, so I wanted to add some clarification.

First, I’ve realized that you may not be able to leave your parents’ home just yet, because you don’t have the resources for that. You did share your struggle with low-paying jobs, and also that you needed to take a break from work in 2019. I don’t know how things are now, but it could be that right now you’re not able to move to a place of your own?

If so, I think it still would be important to not engage in fights with your father, but rather to put all your energy and strength into figuring out how to move out eventually, even if it’s not possible in the near future.

I have a snapping point these days and would happily go to jail if it came to that. He would never hit me now, as he knows I would put him in an early grave and hand myself in.

I guess my stance now is that if I’m going to lose anyway, I’d rather go down fighting and cause them damage too.

Please don’t be telling yourself that you need to fight this battle to extinction. He did cause great damages to you: your health suffered (both physical and psychological), as well as your finances and your career. The lowest point was probably in 2019, when you had a breakdown.

But you don’t have to waste the rest of your life on fighting him and ruining yourself completely. You are 38 years old, and even if you feel older and you said you feel like your life is over – that’s not true.

If you find proper help and remove yourself from your father’s toxic influence, you can recover. In 5 years from now you can have a good job (even run your own business if that’s your game), have a decent partner, and be removed from the nightmare that you’re currently living in.

It is possible, Emily. You don’t need to keep this fight till extinction. Because the only person you are ruining is yourself.

Now for the second point: in my previous post I talked about narcissists, flying monkeys etc. I don’t know how familiar you are with this terminology and if you have considered that your father is most likely a narcissist, and a pretty bad version of it. Those people are capable of ruining one’s life. So you’d need to equip yourself with knowledge and tools how to deal with him, and how to minimize the damage done to you until you can become independent.

What you would need for sure is to get help and meet some normal people, outside of your father’s orbit. Perhaps you can join a support group for victims of narcissistic abuse. Because right now, you said that wherever you go, people treat you poorly and you constantly feel like you need to keep a barbed wire around yourself.

That’s quite possible if you’re surrounded by people in your father’s orbit (the flying monkeys). Also, perhaps you work at a place with a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic colleague, who is spreading lies about you and so you find yourself in a similar nightmare like at home.

You’d need to start meeting different people, because believe me, there are well-meaning, non-narcissistic people out there, but you haven’t encountered many. Or you’ve been busy fighting with the narcissists that you haven’t noticed those other people too much.

If you’d like, I can point you at some resources about narcissism. For example, Dr. Ramani is a well-known expert on narcissism and has a popular youtube channel. She has advice on how to deal with narcissists, as well as flying monkeys, which I think would be super important for you, since you are surrounded by those people.

Hi Freddie,

yeah I think I understand what you are saying about the critical voice, never really know how to access my inner child or where them wounds stem from, the way I think about and talk to myself has always been the same.

Okay, so you’ve always had this critical voice inside your head. When you hear the words used by the inner critic, do they sound familiar? Have you heard those words before? Is there an image that comes to mind of a past situation or an event (specially in your childhood or youth), where you were blamed for something you did, or something that happened?

I am asking because this is how it might get clearer how this voice came about.

Sometimes I have a high opinion of myself, like when I first left the relationship part of me was thinking I could find something better, I sometimes feel like that’s a bit narcissistic or even self sabotaging because I know the end result when things don’t work out or go wrong is how I’m feeling now and the low opinion of myself.

Yes, it’s normal that we actually have more of those internal voices. We can e.g. have a spiteful or a grandiose voice that says “I’ll show everyone how capable I am, just you wait!”. And then when we don’t succeed in whatever it was that we’ve planned, the inner critical voice shames us with an even greater vigor, saying things like “I knew it wouldn’t work, you’re such a loser, you’ll never amount to anything”. So yes, we can have more inner voices, besides the inner critic and the inner child.

I know it’s not healthy and this mindset is scaring me at the moment as this is the lowest I’ve ever felt, and I’ve never beat myself up or had negativity this powerful about myself before.

It seems your ex had a very strong impact on you, and her opinion mattered a lot to you. And when she blamed you, it didn’t feel good. I mean, you really believed her. You took on the blame. You believed that you are insensitive and that the reason for the breakup is your anxiety. That’s what she told you. And so she reinforced what you believed about yourself: that you’re not good enough.

Perhaps what further contributed to you feeling bad about yourself is that her friends blamed you too. Maybe having more people gang up against you served as a “proof” to you that indeed, it’s your fault. Even if these people didn’t know your side of story and just blindly believed whatever she told them…

I think I will try journaling maybe getting all the nonesense down on paper will help me realise it’s not the whole truth and that I have worth. I will try observing my thought patterns like you said and try and be more tuned in to how I speak about and to myself and try and start challenging the negatives.

Yes, try to keep a distance from that critical inner voice. Know that it’s not the truth about you. And yes, I think journaling would be helpful. You can start with “Right now, my critical inner voice is telling me xyz…” And then perhaps thoughts will start coming and you’ll get insights about this voice that you haven’t realized before. So yeah, put it on paper, not in order to reinforce it, but to put some space between yourself and this voice, so you can observe it/ study it.

Dear Emily,

I understand what you are saying, and in the past I have moved all over the world in an attempt to get away from this. However, that didn’t fix the problem. I can physically run away from my family, but there are other people just like them in the world. I can’t just avoid dealing with toxic people and run away every time I meet one, that isn’t realistic. I want to know what I’m doing to attract them, how to identify them more quickly (as they always seem really nice at first, which throws me off guard), how to better stand up for myself (or at least try to) without exhaustion, and how to fix the damage they cause to my life.

I hear you, Emily. You don’t need to always run away from toxic people. Sometimes (or a lot of times) you need to stand up for yourself. The problem is that you are meeting these toxic people too frequently – they are defining and draining your life. It’s like you’re constantly in a zombie apocalypse, and that’s not how life should be. I mean, there are always a**holes around us, but not in that magnitude like in your life.

You ask if you’re sending some signal to attract these toxic people. Well, I don’t think you’re sending a signal but you’ve been brought up around extremely toxic people. Your father was very toxic and was/is actively abusing you. Your mother was more a dissociated type and didn’t do anything to protect you. They also allowed some really bad people to be near you while you were a teenager. You talked about it on your other thread. So you were surrounded by bad people throughout your childhood and youth – starting from your parents to everyone else.

And this continued in your adulthood too: you kept encountering predators like M who tried to ruin your life and take everything from you. Wherever you came, there was gossip, malintent, and people “willing to lie, steal and throw other people under the bus.” It seems that wherever you come, you encounter people like your father… and the nightmare of your childhood continues…

I don’t know if this is too triggering, so I don’t want to continue unless you give me a green light. But I am sure that your current experience of being abused and maligned has to do with what you’ve experienced in your childhood. I am not saying you are imagining things – you really are encountering toxic, malicious people. But you start fights with them and try to prove something to them, when you probably shouldn’t, because fighting with a narcissist is a waste of energy:

A lot of people that I end up arguing with are people like my dad with very fragile, overblown egos, who want to be the hero and act like they are helping this incompetant little woman (even the women, as in hindsight a lot of them initially tried to have this weird dynamic with me where they acted like a big sister/mother). Then when they realise I’m not that, and they aren’t the hero, it dents their ego. Then they try to lash out either directly and/or by sabotaging me, then get mad when I fight back.

You try to prove to these narcissists that you’re not an incompetent little woman. You try to prove that you’re worthy of respect. It’s like going into a snake pit and pick up the fight. You always lose. You can’t win a fight with a narcissist (or a psychopath). If you step on their foot, they seek revenge, they spread malicious rumours, and some indeed are hell bent on destroying you, like M was.

So it seems to me that you’re getting into conflict with toxic people – people like your father – and you’re getting exhausted and bitten in that fight. It’s futile, Emily, to fight with snakes. You need to leave the snake pit altogether.

Because each time you engage and try to fight the narcissist, you give them energy. They love to fight you. So they are winning, you are losing.

So in a way, yes, you are attracted to toxic people (or rather, you are super upset and triggered by them), you go fight them, and it harms you.

I think you’d need to develop an immunity to them, so when you see those overblown egos, you just laugh in yourself and keep walking. You don’t stop to “teach them a lesson.” Because they can’t be taught anything. They don’t change.

Does this make sense?

Dear Emily,

No, I have met decent men that respected me, either through work, friends or family. So I know they exist. They are just not single or aren’t interested in a relationship with me. At least so far I haven’t met any that were. Maybe somewhere in the world there is a good guy who will respect me, who is a match, who is single and who wants a relationship. But I haven’t met him yet.

Oh I see. You believe decent men exist, but they don’t want you, or you can’t get to them. Maybe that’s a belief you have? Sorry if I am barking on the wrong tree with his, but I do get the feeling that there is deeper belief involved, which possibly makes things harder for you.

But what definitely makes things harder is that you need to stay in that “combat zone” and most likely will need to stay for another 10 years at least (Unfortunately, that isn’t possible in the near future…  If I didn’t have young family here, I would just move away. But that isn’t realistic for at least another decade.)

Yes, I helped to raise her and although she’s not my daughter and has great parents, I’m very protective over her and want to be there if she ever needs anything. Moving away would also mean leaving behind the relatives that I do get on with.

Oh I see, so she has good parents and you get along well with them, right? But you still want to protect her and be in her vicinity, even if that means being surrounded by other, abusive relatives?

Sorry for poking, but I am just wondering if you do have to sacrifice yourself – since she actually has people (her parents) to protect her and take good care of her? I mean, you could still keep in touch and be included in parts of her life even if you don’t live in her vicinity.

Yep. I had another big row with my dad last weekend, as he still makes throwaway comments to people blaming me for things that he did. Then gets angry when I call him out for lying. I don’t want to have to do that.

Okay, so it’s your father who is still abusive to you, but you’re now trying to stand up for yourself and fight him, rather than just accept whatever he throws at you. But it’s tiring.

But for years people outside of the family had a very warped idea of who I was, as so many things had been lied about or twisted. Then they would act shocked when I didn’t behave a certain way. Or I was constantly having to explain myself and convince people I wasn’t who they thought I was.

Right, so your parents were lying about you and created a false image of you, and you then needed to explain to people that you’re not this person they believed you are. May I ask what kind of picture did your parents paint about you?

And it seems your father still behaves like that – he is still lying to people about you, accusing and blaming you for his own mistakes (he still makes throwaway comments to people blaming me for things that he did.). You’re trying to fight it, you call him out on his lies, but instead of admitting it, he gets angry at you. So he hasn’t changed much, hasn’t he?

I’m in constant damage control mode. Except now I do it at source, before the lies have time to spread. But it’s just as tiring.

I can imagine it is, Emily. Because your family (at least your father) is still the same toxic, abusive person. He isn’t going to change. And you’re trying to prove something to him, which is in vain. You’re exposing yourself to his venom, and trying to neutralize it and wash it off from your skin all the time. Which is incredibly tiring. Whereas the only good solution would be to leave the toxic place. To stop exposing yourself to his abuse.

I hope you can see this. That you don’t have to keep sacrificing yourself and staying in that abusive, toxic environment.

I will comment on the rest of your post, but I wonder how you feel about what I’ve just said?

Hi Freddie,

yeah I think you are partly right about wanting to prove I’m not a bad person and that if she could give me another chance maybe id prove my worth or be able show I could fix things.

I naturally dwell on stuff so just keep replaying past encounters with her picking apart what I did wrong, but I’ve always been like that.

The critical voice in my head is trying it’s best convince me I won’t meet anyone like her again and I’ll die alone, gotta love that self talk.

Okay, so it seems you’ve got a very strong inner critical voice, who is bombarding you with accusations that you’re a bad person, unworthy of love, that you are guilty for the breakup, and that you’ve ruined your chances and will die alone.

The inner critic is attacking another part of you, which is your inner child. That’s the part who feels unlovable, unworthy and guilty for everything (and not deserving love). I am not sure how aware of you are of this part of you, but when you say or think thoughts like “No one likes me”, “I’ll never be good enough”, “I’m so pathetic”, “No one will ever love me” – these are the thoughts and beliefs of your inner child.

So what’s happening is that the inner critic is viciously attacking this vulnerable part of you. And the vulnerable you (the inner child) really believes that he is unlovable and unworthy.

For starters, you can introduce another voice, or another part, which is the observer. This is the part that is observing what is going on inside of your mind. You have already activated the observer to a certain extent, because you are aware of the inner critical voice and the negative self-talk.

Now expand that to also notice the thoughts of the helpless, fragile you, i.e. your inner child (those sound like I mentioned above). And so now you are observing the interaction between your inner critic and your inner child.

Try not to identify with either of them, but just observe their interaction. This will create some distance from the inner critic, so that you don’t trust him completely and don’t feel crushed by his accusations.

Because what is happening at the moment is that your inner child completely trusts your inner critic. Your inner child believes those vicious accusations and criticism. The goal in our healing is to stop believing the inner critic, to silence him over time, and at the same time to soothe, protect and show compassion for our inner child.

Does this sound plausible? Do you think you can try activating the observer part and observing the internal dialogue, but not identifying with either the inner critic or the inner child?

im getting back in the gym, I’m starting to draw again which fell to sidelines the last couple of years.

That’s great, Freddie. Taking care of your physical well-being and also getting in touch with your creativity are both great ways to keep your mind off the suffering and create a positive spiral in your life. Just keep doing it!

Got a cbt session booked but not till august and the doc has prescribed me some anti depressants so maybe they will help. I just feel lost, hurt and broken at the moment which kinda sucks.

I hope you can feel a little better even before your therapy session in August. Let me know if the method of the internal dialogue that I mentioned above makes sense to you?