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  • #433315
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    <p style=”text-indent: 12.25pt; line-height: 19.2pt; background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Hi Tee,</p>
    <p style=”text-indent: 12.25pt; line-height: 19.2pt; background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>You nailed it! You pinpointed the main problem: his too high expectations and immediate criticism, instead of allowing you the time to learn things (and having patience and empathy with you). And he was like that since your childhood. No room for mistakes and a demand for perfection, or else he was quick to get angry.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>And I loved that you were so self-confident with him: telling him that you are obviously going to do it well. Yes! That’s the spirit! You didn’t feel less then, or not good enough, but you confidently told him that yes, you can do it, you are able to, you just need a little bit of time to get the hang of it. Perfect!</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Thanks! I think I’m finally able to start working on my new identity shift. Also grateful because of you 😀</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>So your mother behaved the same way as she did in your childhood: trying to pacify you, so you wouldn’t provoke him. She wanted you to walk on eggshells around him, so he wouldn’t explode in anger. Basically, she was appeasing the bully (and trying to control you, his victim).</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>How are you feeling today? Still good or there are some doubts or feeling of guilt, or anything like that?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>So for that matter it’s like 10 days now. And I think there’s no feeling of guilt. Although My father does started to tell my mom (Not to me or my brother directly) that we’re not obedient like before. We siblings talk back a lot. And My mother still just listens to that. But she did told me that if you think it’s hurting you then speak up I didn’t speak up in all these years so I don’t speak up or just rarely. </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>It seems the inner protector – the inner Uncle Iroh – has activated himself in this latest encounter with your parents. Do you still feel the presence of this positive inner voice?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Hmm I think Yes. But because of his patterns I knew what he’s going to do so I sorta decided that this time I won’t be silent I’ll speak up. So I guess Inner voice helped me to stand up for myself? </p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes, you do have your own voice, which can speak for you and defend you from attacks. I think it’s wonderful that you experienced that you are actually able to defend yourself and stand up for yourself. And this gave you a sense of power. Because if you can stand up for yourself, you are powerful. If you can say No to abuse, you are powerful.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Simply knowing that we have the ability to protect ourselves (from other people’s abuse, unreasonable demands, unfair expectations etc) gives us enormous inner power.</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes! Thanks for the reminder</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yess! That was a great success – your dream come true, and something you have been longing for a long time. And you made it! So yes, that too proved how powerful you are: because you can achieve your goals and dreams.</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes actually this is a big point for my identity shift because of my past failures I was considering myself as a failure </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Okay, it could be that some “rewriting” of your childhood experiences happened in this very encounter with your parents. Because in this encounter, you’ve got the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your truth, and not allowing to be silenced and guilt-tripped into obedience. If you still feel good about it, without doubt or guilt creeping in, then some “rewriting” has happened for sure.</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes I definitely think so, and there are some other “rewritings” are needed to remove the old beliefs </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Is there a part of you which still expects validation from your parents (and grandparents) that you are making good choices? Like, you know that you are right, but a part of you is still doubting it?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>No I don’t think I need validation from them. </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Do you feel that you still don’t believe positive things about yourself? That even though you receive praise from other people, you still have a hard time believing it?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Perhaps now 2 voices are vying for dominance in your psyche: one is your newly found confident voice with which you just spoke to your parents. And the other is the “good old” (actually bad old) inner critic, caused by years of criticism and telling you you’re not good enough?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes I think maybe it’s that. How to tackle that and make the newly found voice stronger?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>I’m slowly starting to believe about some positive things about myself but I do still have kind of inferiority complex even though I don’t compare myself to others</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>You mean you are not longing for external validation? But you also feel that your inner “validator” is not strong enough?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes Exactly </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>What exactly do you feel you are missing right now?</p>

    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>That’s the thing. I’m not sure sometimes I feel like I need to befriend with myself so I don’t feel alone or just self-sabotage and waste time</p>

    #433316
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Don’t know what happened, Maybe some error so I’m posting again
    <p style=”text-indent: 12.25pt; line-height: 19.2pt; background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Hi Tee,</p>
    <p style=”text-indent: 12.25pt; line-height: 19.2pt; background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>You nailed it! You pinpointed the main problem: his too high expectations and immediate criticism, instead of allowing you the time to learn things (and having patience and empathy with you). And he was like that since your childhood. No room for mistakes and a demand for perfection, or else he was quick to get angry.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>And I loved that you were so self-confident with him: telling him that you are obviously going to do it well. Yes! That’s the spirit! You didn’t feel less then, or not good enough, but you confidently told him that yes, you can do it, you are able to, you just need a little bit of time to get the hang of it. Perfect!</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Thanks! I think I’m finally able to start working on my new identity shift </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>So your mother behaved the same way as she did in your childhood: trying to pacify you, so you wouldn’t provoke him. She wanted you to walk on eggshells around him, so he wouldn’t explode in anger. Basically, she was appeasing the bully (and trying to control you, his victim).</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>How are you feeling today? Still good or there are some doubts or feeling of guilt, or anything like that?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>So for that matter it’s like 10 days now. And I think there’s no feeling of guilt. Although My father does started to tell my mom (Not to me or my brother directly) that we’re not obedient like before. We siblings talk back a lot. And My mother still just listens to that. But she did told me that if you think it’s hurting you then speak up I didn’t speak up in all these years so I don’t speak up or just rarely. </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>It seems the inner protector – the inner Uncle Iroh – has activated himself in this latest encounter with your parents. Do you still feel the presence of this positive inner voice?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Hmm I think Yes. But because of his patterns I knew what he’s going to do so I sorta decided that this time I won’t be silent I’ll speak up. So I guess Inner voice helped me to stand up for myself? </p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes, you do have your own voice, which can speak for you and defend you from attacks. I think it’s wonderful that you experienced that you are actually able to defend yourself and stand up for yourself. And this gave you a sense of power. Because if you can stand up for yourself, you are powerful. If you can say No to abuse, you are powerful.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Simply knowing that we have the ability to protect ourselves (from other people’s abuse, unreasonable demands, unfair expectations etc) gives us enormous inner power.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes! Thanks for the reminder</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yess! That was a great success – your dream come true, and something you have been longing for a long time. And you made it! So yes, that too proved how powerful you are: because you can achieve your goals and dreams.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes actually this is a big point for my identity shift because of my past failures I was considering myself as a failure </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Okay, it could be that some “rewriting” of your childhood experiences happened in this very encounter with your parents. Because in this encounter, you’ve got the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your truth, and not allowing to be silenced and guilt-tripped into obedience. If you still feel good about it, without doubt or guilt creeping in, then some “rewriting” has happened for sure.</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes I definitely think so, and there are some other “rewritings” are needed to remove the old beliefs </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Is there a part of you which still expects validation from your parents (and grandparents) that you are making good choices? Like, you know that you are right, but a part of you is still doubting it?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>No I don’t think I need validation from them. </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Do you feel that you still don’t believe positive things about yourself? That even though you receive praise from other people, you still have a hard time believing it?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration-thickness: initial; text-decoration-style: initial; text-decoration-color: initial; word-spacing: 0px; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Perhaps now 2 voices are vying for dominance in your psyche: one is your newly found confident voice with which you just spoke to your parents. And the other is the “good old” (actually bad old) inner critic, caused by years of criticism and telling you you’re not good enough?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes I think maybe it’s that. How to tackle that and make the newly found voice stronger?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>I’m slowly starting to believe about some positive things about myself but I do still have kind of inferiority complex even though I don’t compare myself to others</p>
    <p style=”background: white; box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>You mean you are not longing for external validation? But you also feel that your inner “validator” is not strong enough?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>Yes Exactly </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”> </p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>What exactly do you feel you are missing right now?</p>
    <p style=”background: white; margin: 0cm 0cm 7.5pt 0cm;”>That’s the thing. I’m not sure sometimes I feel like I need to befriend with myself so I don’t feel alone or just self-sabotage and waste time</p>

    #433317
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

    You nailed it! You pinpointed the main problem: his too high expectations and immediate criticism, instead of allowing you the time to learn things (and having patience and empathy with you). And he was like that since your childhood. No room for mistakes and a demand for perfection, or else he was quick to get angry.
    And I loved that you were so self-confident with him: telling him that you are obviously going to do it well. Yes! That’s the spirit! You didn’t feel less then, or not good enough, but you confidently told him that yes, you can do it, you are able to, you just need a little bit of time to get the hang of it. Perfect!

    Thanks! I think I’m finally able to start working on my new identity shift

    So your mother behaved the same way as she did in your childhood: trying to pacify you, so you wouldn’t provoke him. She wanted you to walk on eggshells around him, so he wouldn’t explode in anger. Basically, she was appeasing the bully (and trying to control you, his victim).

    How are you feeling today? Still good or there are some doubts or feeling of guilt, or anything like that?
    So for that matter it’s like 10 days now. And I think there’s no feeling of guilt. Although My father does started to tell my mom (Not to me or my brother directly) that we’re not obedient like before. We siblings talk back a lot. And My mother still just listens to that. But she did told me that if you think it’s hurting you then speak up I didn’t speak up in all these years so I don’t speak up or just rarely.

    It seems the inner protector – the inner Uncle Iroh – has activated himself in this latest encounter with your parents. Do you still feel the presence of this positive inner voice?
    Hmm I think Yes. But because of his patterns I knew what he’s going to do so I sorta decided that this time I won’t be silent I’ll speak up. So I guess Inner voice helped me to stand up for myself?

    Yes, you do have your own voice, which can speak for you and defend you from attacks. I think it’s wonderful that you experienced that you are actually able to defend yourself and stand up for yourself. And this gave you a sense of power. Because if you can stand up for yourself, you are powerful. If you can say No to abuse, you are powerful.
    Simply knowing that we have the ability to protect ourselves (from other people’s abuse, unreasonable demands, unfair expectations etc) gives us enormous inner power.
    Yes! Thanks for the reminder

    Yess! That was a great success – your dream come true, and something you have been longing for a long time. And you made it! So yes, that too proved how powerful you are: because you can achieve your goals and dreams.
    Yes actually this is a big point for my identity shift because of my past failures I was considering myself as a failure

    Okay, it could be that some “rewriting” of your childhood experiences happened in this very encounter with your parents. Because in this encounter, you’ve got the experience of standing up for yourself and speaking your truth, and not allowing to be silenced and guilt-tripped into obedience. If you still feel good about it, without doubt or guilt creeping in, then some “rewriting” has happened for sure.
    Yes I definitely think so, and there are some other “rewritings” are needed to remove the old beliefs

    Is there a part of you which still expects validation from your parents (and grandparents) that you are making good choices? Like, you know that you are right, but a part of you is still doubting it?
    No I don’t think I need validation from them.

    Do you feel that you still don’t believe positive things about yourself? That even though you receive praise from other people, you still have a hard time believing it?
    Perhaps now 2 voices are vying for dominance in your psyche: one is your newly found confident voice with which you just spoke to your parents. And the other is the “good old” (actually bad old) inner critic, caused by years of criticism and telling you you’re not good enough?
    Yes I think maybe it’s that. How to tackle that and make the newly found voice stronger?
    I’m slowly starting to believe about some positive things about myself but I do still have kind of inferiority complex even though I don’t compare myself to others

    You mean you are not longing for external validation? But you also feel that your inner “validator” is not strong enough?
    Yes Exactly

    What exactly do you feel you are missing right now?
    That’s the thing. I’m not sure sometimes I feel like I need to befriend with myself so I don’t feel alone or just self-sabotage and waste time

    #433318
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

     

    So the doctor didn’t touch your heart? Or she did, but she wasn’t able to break down the walls in your heart?

    You see – it’s not about the woman. It’s about you. If you fear (either intimacy, or losing something good and hurting afterwards), then you will keep those walls up, even if it’s the best thing that ever happened to you.

    If fear prevails, no woman will be able to break down the walls of your heart. The person who needs to do it is you.

     

    Yes I know it’s about me. and when talking to one of my friend after a while I think there could be some different thing playing role in this. I thought I had just mild ADHD but it I think it increased to moderate. Because my dopamine levels would low most of the time and I would keep seek novelty. That’s why maybe I’m just getting more curious at first and then when there’s no novelty like I know enough I get bored and move on to next

    #433319
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    I think doctor was able to get really close to my heart. But there was fear of intimacy. fearful avoidant attachment style you know.

    and I guess also part that I wanted something more again because I did enjoyed when we doing different things together. But then I got bored and after that because of the job anxiety I totally ignored her.

    #433339
    Tee
    Participant

    Hey SereneWolf,

    I think doctor was able to get really close to my heart. But there was fear of intimacy. fearful avoidant attachment style you know.

    I’ve never realized you were fearful avoidant, which is different than dismissive avoidant (I thought you were the latter). So I googled fearful avoidant and have come across a fantastic youtube video about it, titled: “Fearful-Avoidant: The Blindspot That Keeps You Repeating The Same Relationship Mistakes“.

    The detailed explanation blew me away. Let me know if you resonate with it. I can see how it might actually apply to you… because I am guessing you would be the fearful avoidant type who is leaning more towards the avoidant side (the other option is fearful avoidant who is leaning more towards the anxious side).

    Anyway, if it resonates, I think this video actually gives a solution to the problem, because it offers great ideas on how to heal. Do let me know if it applies to you!

     

    #433352
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hey Tee,
    Thanks for sharing. I’ll watch the video and share my thoughts with you.

    #433412
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    I’ve watched another video by the same psychologist (Heidi Priebe), where she goes into a great detail explaining the main features of the fearful avoidant style. The video is 1 hr long, and it’s called 10 Signs You May Have A Fearful-Avoidant Attachment Style. She herself used to be fearful avoidant, so that’s her specialty and she knows a lot about it.

    Anyway, I watched it and recognized similar features that you shared about your own behavior in relationships. Here are two signs of the fearful avoidant style that she described, which I think you’ve expressed too (her bullets are expressed in the “you” form, so I am keeping that form):

    1. You crave intimacy but fear commitment
    2. You want other people to be vulnerable before you are

    In the following, I’ll paraphrase what she said about each of these signs:

    1. You crave intimacy but fear commitment

    The false belief (based on their childhood experiences): to be in a relationship means to give up my independence and my sense of self to give endlessly of myself to the other person.

    Fearful avoidants like people and intimate connections, but they are afraid of losing their sense of self in the relationship. So they make a deal with themselves: “I’ll go into the relationship, I’ll get that hit of intimacy and a sense of connectedness, but then I am going to pull back and I’m not going to enter this relationship long term, because to be in a relationship long term means to lose my sense of self. So I’ll sacrifice my sense of self for a while, to get the intimacy I need and crave, but then I pull back because I can’t bear to lose myself on the long run”.

    They don’t realize that one can keep their sense of self and still be deeply emotionally connected to another person. They engage is merging with the other person, but at the expense of losing themselves, which is painful. So the fearful avoidant only feels comfortable in relationships when there is an expiry date. The idea of a long-term commitment, even to someone they really love, is terrifying.

    (end of paraphrase)

    You too expressed this same notion of losing yourself in the relationship, and completely focusing on the other person and their needs and wants:

    Sometimes I can’t say No to a person even though I’d like to say No. … I really fear disappointing them.

    In relationship I care too much and even if they’re little careless about their health or things that affect them or make them worry it makes me worry 3x times more and I can’t focus on my things.

    In relationships I just loose myself in the process because over caring and overthinking about partner. And it affects my mood and even the sleep…

    If I even notice even a little that what I suggested made them uncomfortable I wouldn’t hesitate to change my plans just to see them not disappointed.

    The above are the examples where you lost yourself in the relationship and started caring not to disappoint your partner, not to want anything for yourself. You also started overly caring about her physical and emotional well-being, to the point of getting enmeshed and not being able to focus on your own stuff, and even losing sleep over it. That was happening in both of your LDRs, if I remember well.

    So that’s the “hard” love that you want to avoid. The enmeshed, self-denying love, which is I guess the anxious part of your personality.

    No wonder you don’t want it. You get exhausted in such relationships. And then you go back to being alone and restoring your independence:

    I don’t like being even partially “dependent” on someone or affected by them. It could be because I like to control (It’s lot better than before but still) but not being controlled. Because I prefer some things should be my way. And It should be without judgements.

    Like I know I’m in touch with my inner child and I still do lot of things that an adult actually doesn’t do like I turned into a kid when I’m with kids, Different kind of bicycling, Singing and dancing for no reason (Lot of times while cooking, Watching Anime and Cartoons and lot of things like that). And I kind of fear they would judge me for that and not actually understand.

    When I asked you what you wouldn’t compromise, you said:

    I think my freedom and ability to do whatever I want.

    Also ability to go wherever I go. It’s like a parent would be like don’t go to hike there it’s dangerous out there and then even after she said no and I’d go I feel guilty.

    But the problem is when this independence turns into total self-reliance, which is the opposite extreme of enmeshment. Which again isn’t a healthy state. And so the goal, according to this psychologist, and I agree with her, is integration.

    Whereas now you might be prone to suppressing your emotional, overly reactive and needy part (the one that goes into enmeshment), you’d need to acknowledge it and give it more room for expression. For example, dare to speak up if something bothers you about the person’s behavior. Don’t suppress your frustration and pretend that you are so very tolerant and understanding (which you used to do in your LDRs, if I remember well). Set boundaries. Express your likes and dislikes. I don’t want to go into details in this post, but setting boundaries and expressing your dislikes would be the way to integrate your emotional, reactive part.

     

    The second feature of the fearful avoidant style, which I think also applies to you is:

    2. You want other people to be vulnerable before you are

    This is what Heidi Priebe says about it:

    People with fearful avoidant style do want emotional intimacy, but they also fear getting hurt. They are quite guarded, even if they are warm, empathic and engaging. They ask a lot of questions, but they don’t share too much about themselves (specially not the vulnerable parts). They are good listeners – they make other people comfortable and safe to express themselves and talk about deeper things. But they don’t want to share similarly deep about themselves until they are sure that the power dynamic is tipped in their favor.

    That’s because they believe that people are naturally inclined to hurt and betray each other. They don’t trust people. So the only way they are willing to open up and share vulnerable information about themselves is if they are sure that the other person is “worse off” than them, i.e. has bigger weaknesses than them. Or that the other person is more in love with them than they are with the person, and so the other person has more to lose than them.

    The fearful avoidant is always evaluating: what’s the likelihood that this person is safe for me to open up to. But their indicators of safety are not that the person is warm and kind and comforting, but it’s more likely to be something like: “this person has already shown me all of their cards, so now I can flip over mine, knowing that their issues are bigger than mine”.

    People with fearful avoidant style usually don’t pursue, but wait to be pursued. Because pursuing/chasing someone requires vulnerability, which fearful avoidants don’t want to show.

    (end of paraphrase)

    You talked about not wanting to be too vulnerable with your partner (in your LDRs). You also mentioned feeling inferior (at least in the beginning) with the doctor. And you were attracted to troubled people, whom you perhaps unconsciously saw as weaker, or with more problems, than yourself.

    So perhaps the tendency to get attracted to problematic girls is a part of this need to not feel judged by your partner, because you kind of feel “better” than them, and thus safer from their criticism and their ability to hurt you (which would be a defense against the wound your father inflicted upon you, criticizing you for your “weaknesses” and your “imperfections”). I am not claiming this, but it is a possibility.

     

    Anyway, it seems to me you do fit some of the features of the fearful avoidant style. And the good news is that it can be healed – via integration. Integration of the emotionally reactive, angry and needy part (which you are perhaps ashamed of and want to keep hidden from people) into your main personality. By allowing yourself to say No and have boundaries, basically.

    Let me know how all of this sounds?

     

    #433456
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    I just want to add: the fact that you’ve recently stood up to both your father and grandfather and expressed your frustration is a big deal! That’s the beginning of standing up for yourself, saying No to certain things, and setting boundaries. Exactly what you need in the next phase of your healing journey: to speak more freely and stand up for yourself, not suppressing your frustration and pretending you are fine with being mistreated (the latter is what your mother taught you).

    So it’s a huge huge step forward and an important milestone!

    It’s also great that your mother understood your need to speak up and didn’t try to silence you, once you’ve explained to her how much her “hushing you down” have cost you in terms of mental health:

    Although My father does started to tell my mom (Not to me or my brother directly) that we’re not obedient like before. We siblings talk back a lot. And My mother still just listens to that. But she did told me that if you think it’s hurting you then speak up I didn’t speak up in all these years so I don’t speak up or just rarely.

    So that’s a change of attitude on her part too. And you were clear that you won’t let her hush you down anymore. So I just want to reiterate: that’s a great progress, SereneWolf, and I think it’s actually a crucial step in becoming more authentic and self-confident (and free) – not only in the relationship with your parents, but in all of your relationships too.

     

    #433615
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

    Hope you’re having a good weekend.

     

    I’ve watched another video by the same psychologist (Heidi Priebe), where she goes into a great detail explaining the main features of the fearful avoidant style. The video is 1 hr long, and it’s called 10 Signs You May Have A Fearful-Avoidant Attachment Style. She herself used to be fearful avoidant, so that’s her specialty and she knows a lot about it.

     

    First of all thanks a lot for putting that much time for me. You’re a truly good mentor and supporter. It’s good that if she herself used to be fearful avoidant she definitely has more insights.

    I also watched the video you suggest and I do think I’m leaning towards more avoidant style

     

    Anyway, I watched it and recognized similar features that you shared about your own behavior in relationships. Here are two signs of the fearful avoidant style that she described, which I think you’ve expressed too (her bullets are expressed in the “you” form, so I am keeping that form):

    1. You crave intimacy but fear commitment

    2. You want other people to be vulnerable before you are

    Yes I agree I can resonate with both of the points and again leaning more on avoidant side

     

    In the following, I’ll paraphrase what she said about each of these signs:

    1. You crave intimacy but fear commitment

    The false belief (based on their childhood experiences): to be in a relationship means to give up my independence and my sense of self to give endlessly of myself to the other person.

    Fearful avoidants like people and intimate connections, but they are afraid of losing their sense of self in the relationship. So they make a deal with themselves: “I’ll go into the relationship, I’ll get that hit of intimacy and a sense of connectedness, but then I am going to pull back and I’m not going to enter this relationship long term, because to be in a relationship long term means to lose my sense of self. So I’ll sacrifice my sense of self for a while, to get the intimacy I need and crave, but then I pull back because I can’t bear to lose myself on the long run”.

    They don’t realize that one can keep their sense of self and still be deeply emotionally connected to another person. They engage is merging with the other person, but at the expense of losing themselves, which is painful. So the fearful avoidant only feels comfortable in relationships when there is an expiry date. The idea of a long-term commitment, even to someone they really love, is terrifying.

    (end of paraphrase)

    You too expressed this same notion of losing yourself in the relationship, and completely focusing on the other person and their needs and wants:

    Sometimes I can’t say No to a person even though I’d like to say No. … I really fear disappointing them.

    In relationship I care too much and even if they’re little careless about their health or things that affect them or make them worry it makes me worry 3x times more and I can’t focus on my things.

    In relationships I just loose myself in the process because over caring and overthinking about partner. And it affects my mood and even the sleep…

    If I even notice even a little that what I suggested made them uncomfortable I wouldn’t hesitate to change my plans just to see them not disappointed.

    The above are the examples where you lost yourself in the relationship and started caring not to disappoint your partner, not to want anything for yourself. You also started overly caring about her physical and emotional well-being, to the point of getting enmeshed and not being able to focus on your own stuff, and even losing sleep over it. That was happening in both of your LDRs, if I remember well.

    So that’s the “hard” love that you want to avoid. The enmeshed, self-denying love, which is I guess the anxious part of your personality.

    No wonder you don’t want it. You get exhausted in such relationships. And then you go back to being alone and restoring your independence:

    I don’t like being even partially “dependent” on someone or affected by them. It could be because I like to control (It’s lot better than before but still) but not being controlled. Because I prefer some things should be my way. And It should be without judgements.

    Like I know I’m in touch with my inner child and I still do lot of things that an adult actually doesn’t do like I turned into a kid when I’m with kids, Different kind of bicycling, Singing and dancing for no reason (Lot of times while cooking, Watching Anime and Cartoons and lot of things like that). And I kind of fear they would judge me for that and not actually understand.

    When I asked you what you wouldn’t compromise, you said:

    I think my freedom and ability to do whatever I want.

    Also ability to go wherever I go. It’s like a parent would be like don’t go to hike there it’s dangerous out there and then even after she said no and I’d go I feel guilty.

    But the problem is when this independence turns into total self-reliance, which is the opposite extreme of enmeshment. Which again isn’t a healthy state. And so the goal, according to this psychologist, and I agree with her, is integration.

    Whereas now you might be prone to suppressing your emotional, overly reactive and needy part (the one that goes into enmeshment), you’d need to acknowledge it and give it more room for expression. For example, dare to speak up if something bothers you about the person’s behavior. Don’t suppress your frustration and pretend that you are so very tolerant and understanding (which you used to do in your LDRs, if I remember well). Set boundaries. Express your likes and dislikes. I don’t want to go into details in this post, but setting boundaries and expressing your dislikes would be the way to integrate your emotional, reactive part.

     

    The second feature of the fearful avoidant style, which I think also applies to you is:

    1. You want other people to be vulnerable before you are

    This is what Heidi Priebe says about it:

    People with fearful avoidant style do want emotional intimacy, but they also fear getting hurt. They are quite guarded, even if they are warm, empathic and engaging. They ask a lot of questions, but they don’t share too much about themselves (specially not the vulnerable parts). They are good listeners – they make other people comfortable and safe to express themselves and talk about deeper things. But they don’t want to share similarly deep about themselves until they are sure that the power dynamic is tipped in their favor.

    That’s because they believe that people are naturally inclined to hurt and betray each other. They don’t trust people. So the only way they are willing to open up and share vulnerable information about themselves is if they are sure that the other person is “worse off” than them, i.e. has bigger weaknesses than them. Or that the other person is more in love with them than they are with the person, and so the other person has more to lose than them.

    The fearful avoidant is always evaluating: what’s the likelihood that this person is safe for me to open up to. But their indicators of safety are not that the person is warm and kind and comforting, but it’s more likely to be something like: “this person has already shown me all of their cards, so now I can flip over mine, knowing that their issues are bigger than mine”.

    People with fearful avoidant style usually don’t pursue, but wait to be pursued. Because pursuing/chasing someone requires vulnerability, which fearful avoidants don’t want to show.

    (end of paraphrase)

    You talked about not wanting to be too vulnerable with your partner (in your LDRs). You also mentioned feeling inferior (at least in the beginning) with the doctor. And you were attracted to troubled people, whom you perhaps unconsciously saw as weaker, or with more problems, than yourself.

    So perhaps the tendency to get attracted to problematic girls is a part of this need to not feel judged by your partner, because you kind of feel “better” than them, and thus safer from their criticism and their ability to hurt you (which would be a defense against the wound your father inflicted upon you, criticizing you for your “weaknesses” and your “imperfections”). I am not claiming this, but it is a possibility.

     

    Anyway, it seems to me you do fit some of the features of the fearful avoidant style. And the good news is that it can be healed – via integration. Integration of the emotionally reactive, angry and needy part (which you are perhaps ashamed of and want to keep hidden from people) into your main personality. By allowing yourself to say No and have boundaries, basically.

    Let me know how all of this sounds?

    Those are very good insights so thanks for pointing that out and the thing is that I’m trying to create a healthy boundaries but most of the time what is still happening that If I get a minor inconvenience or feel like they’re not respecting my boundaries even once or twice I distance myself from them and after that I kinda feel much less connected to them. Because something I really hate is repeating myself so like if I get vulnerable with them and say look this is what’s bothering me so it would be better if you be aware next time. And after that they still do that the respect I have for them starts to fade. Because I’m very strict when it comes to other people’s boundaries. And not in just romantic relationships but friendships as well.

    And the thing is that it’s draining for me.

    About the angry part I think I’m getting better like the recent things I told you I’m not suprassing my anger like before.

    But the needy part? That’s kinda hard I hate to kinda express people I need them. It does feel better when I know that I can be dependable (Not 100%) but to be honest in all this time life kept gave me reminders that I can only depend on myself so that’s why that part is hard for me. I do have some good friends but if I think deep enough I feel like really don’t want to be vulnerable with them that much. Does that mean I need friends? And I don’t think that some damaged people but hmm more like someone I can resonate with a little, Not too much different from me so it would be easier to open up for me.

     

    Also about the troubled people part, I don’t actually see them weaker like I said I stopped that kinda comparing while ago. But yeah maybe subconsciously. And I also agree with her on the Power Dynamics because that’s what I did in the part. I liked control. But just because this recent woman which I barely talked to her for like 2 weeks. We can’t say that I’m attracted to troubled people. Can we? But yeah she’s more troubled that’s for sure. And nowadays who isn’t troubled more or less everyone is troubled. Everyone is trying to fight their demons and heal. I just don’t want to deal with the women who aren’t even self aware about their traumas and not actively working on it. Because effort is something that really attractive to me. Kind of a priority. Because I did noticed that when I don’t see efforts I also lost interest quite fast. One of the reasons why I broke up with one of the Best LDR I had. Because I felt like I was the only one putting the efforts there. and that’s why in 2nd LDR I sensed like I don’t want to deal with the same thing because I felt like she wouldn’t even put the effort more than the previous one. so I broke up with her as well. and now I’m not interested in LDR at all. and now I crave physical intimacy more than anything. Hand holding. cuddling, kissing and just playful activities together etc.

    #433668
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    sorry, this will be a long post. I apologize in advance if it’s too much and if I perhaps missed the point…

    First of all thanks a lot for putting that much time for me. You’re a truly good mentor and supporter.

    You are very welcome! And thank you for your kind words. It seemed like an important material, and very relevant to you, so I figured I want to transcribe it, to have a written trace of it. I’ve learned a lot from it, and I am glad you too benefited.

    Those are very good insights so thanks for pointing that out and the thing is that I’m trying to create a healthy boundaries but most of the time what is still happening that If I get a minor inconvenience or feel like they’re not respecting my boundaries even once or twice I distance myself from them and after that I kinda feel much less connected to them.

    It could be that if they don’t pick up immediately that something is bothering you, you feel unseen by them, and you conclude that your needs don’t matter to them, and that they might hurt you (maybe it’s not even conscious but unconscious reasoning). And from that moment on, you are on guard and you start distancing yourself.

    If so, it means that a minor slip on their part leads to a major danger alert going off in your subconscious mind. And so you switch to defense mode, where you are on alert for being hurt. And in order to prevent being hurt, you preemptively withdraw and stop being open and vulnerable. This is what might be happening.

    The reason for that is the old trauma, which causes you to make a big deal out of a minor issue. And to put up your shields.

    What happened in your childhood is that your mother didn’t really care about your emotional needs: she didn’t care if your father’s anger outbursts hurt you. Moreover, she told you to accept it without any resistance. She basically told you your emotions don’t matter (in this case fear and anger), and that you should be able to control your anger and pretend that it’s not there. She told you that you should silently take the verbal “beatings” and be a good, obedient boy.

    In other words, your mother didn’t have much regard for your emotional needs. She didn’t let you have boundaries. Or to be rightfully upset for being mistreated. And it felt horrible. It felt like a prison. It felt so horrible that you left home at the age of 17.

    She didn’t let you set boundaries, and so you didn’t get the chance to learn how to set boundaries. The only way to protect yourself from being invaded was to leave. To remove yourself from the situation/relationship completely.

    So this is I think what’s happening: in a romantic relationship, when you feel that the person doesn’t care about your needs – and it could be that even a minor thing can trigger such a feeling – your knee-jerk reaction is to want to leave the relationship. Even if you don’t leave physically, you start withdrawing emotionally, and the intimacy is lost for you. Intimacy is not an option any more.

    So instead of working to repair the relationship – and maintain emotional connection and intimacy – you put a stop on intimacy. You block it. Even if you stay in the relationship, you stay in a self-defense mode, with your shields up (we’ve talked about the shield/armor around your heart).

     

    And I think one aspect of this self-defense mode is the superiority/inferiority dynamic, where you feel less vulnerable if you can feel superior than your partner.

    In the relationship with your father, you felt inferior and never good enough. It seems that with a romantic partner, you never want to feel that way: worthless, unlovable, not good enough. And so you either avoid relationships altogether, or if you opt for a relationship, you want to feel better than your partner. Because that’s how you feel safe(r) from her criticism.

    I think that’s why you also want to perfect yourself as much as possible before getting married:

    [I said] Maybe loving hard also means that you need to work hard to be lovable? That you need to be successful, so she would love you (“she can always find a rich husband but a for a guy, he got to be something good”)?

    [you replied] Kind of yes I guess like trying to perfecting the relationship and my partner too.

    I imagine it’s because the idea of being stuck with someone who criticizes you all the time (such as a criticizing, judgmental wife) is unbearable.

    But I think also the idea of being stuck with a woman who is full of faults, who is unaware of her issues and refuses to work on herself – is equally unbearable to you:

    I just don’t want to deal with the women who aren’t even self aware about their traumas and not actively working on it. Because effort is something that really attractive to me. Kind of a priority.

    In your last post you said the girl should be similar to you:

    I don’t think that some damaged people but hmm more like someone I can resonate with a little, Not too much different from me so it would be easier to open up for me.

    Putting all this information together, it seems to me that your perfect partner is someone who has similar issues, i.e. someone who similarly like you doesn’t feel good enough and wants to “perfect” herself.

    Your first LDR was like that, wasn’t she? She had many issues (mostly low self-esteem) and wanted to change. And you were keen on helping her to change. You two were stuck in the superior/inferior dynamic, where she was trying to change and be a better person, but was failing most of the times. You hoped she would change, but she never did, and after 3 years you had enough and called it quits.

    With your next LDR, you only stayed for about 2 months. This is what you said about her:

    She’s nice and mature but she is somewhat an anxious person. like whatever I suggest she be like it’s easy to tell, hard to do. even though I tried being patience she’s just doesn’t want to get out of her comfort zone.

    She’s mostly complaining that I’m being hard on her. Even though I’m trying to take this patiently. So what now I shouldn’t have some ground values of my own?

    She didn’t appreciate your attempts to push her out of her “comfort zone”. She thought you were hard on her. Maybe that’s because she had more self-esteem than your first LDR and showed more resistance to your attempts to “perfect” her. And since her resistance was greater (and more obvious) than your first LDR, you broke up with her rather swiftly:

    When I don’t see efforts I also lost interest quite fast. One of the reasons why I broke up with one of the Best LDR I had. Because I felt like I was the only one putting the efforts there. and that’s why in 2nd LDR I sensed like I don’t want to deal with the same thing because I felt like she wouldn’t even put the effort more than the previous one. so I broke up with her as well.

    Now this latest girl has issues as well, possibly some similar to yours (anger), but overall, she has bigger issues than you in terms of mental health. She also seems interested in working on herself (she has been in therapy for 4 years), which is a must for you.

    So right there you’ve got 2 potential attraction points: she has similar but greater issues than you, and she is (at least in theory) interested in self-improvement.

    You also said she is mysterious:

    I think I was curious because she seemed little bit mysterious at first. … She smokes, she’s dramatic and her anger is always on the edge. I tried to understood why she’s the way she is and I noticed that it’s just her coping mechanisms, At heart she’s kind and loving woman.

    It could be that you were intrigued by her anger (because it reminded you of your father), and started hoping that underneath her anger you might find a “kind and loving woman”. So she would be someone similar to your father, and yet different: someone who appears rough and angry on the outside, but is actually kind and loving underneath. This might have been a hope and the excitement that your inner child felt in the presence of this “mysterious” woman.

    Maybe I got carried away too much here. But in any case, I can see why you were intrigued by her, even if she appears the “opposite of what you like” (another friend told me how she is opposite of what I like).

    But just because this recent woman which I barely talked to her for like 2 weeks. We can’t say that I’m attracted to troubled people. Can we? But yeah she’s more troubled that’s for sure.

    Well, you were attracted to a troubled person in the past (your first LDR), with whom you stayed for more than 3 years. And you said she was your best LDR.

    Maybe I am looking too much into this, and I apologize if I am talking nonsense. But still, here’s what I am thinking: perhaps the reason why you considered her your best relationship is because she fulfilled the 3 criteria that I listed above: 1) similar but greater issues than you, 2) openness (at least declarative) to self-improvement and change, and 3) openness to being coached/helped by you, as someone who is “further along” on the self-development journey? Perhaps these are the “attraction points” that make you fall in love with a girl?

    Please note: this is just an assumption. Think about it, and see if it resonates at all. If yes, then it’s kind of a formula of how you fall in love, a formula which is more or less based on self-defense. It doesn’t really allow for intimacy and vulnerability.

    Let me know what you think. And I apologize if I went overboard with my assumptions and analysis.

     

    #433932
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hi Tee,
    How you doing?

    Sorry for little late reply.
    I finally started my travel journey! Yaaaaay!
    I started with world’s tallest statue, Statue of Unity. It was so much fun.

    It could be that if they don’t pick up immediately that something is bothering you, you feel unseen by them, and you conclude that your needs don’t matter to them, and that they might hurt you (maybe it’s not even conscious but unconscious reasoning). And from that moment on, you are on guard and you start distancing yourself.
    If so, it means that a minor slip on their part leads to a major danger alert going off in your subconscious mind. And so you switch to defense mode, where you are on alert for being hurt. And in order to prevent being hurt, you preemptively withdraw and stop being open and vulnerable. This is what might be happening.
    The reason for that is the old trauma, which causes you to make a big deal out of a minor issue. And to put up your shields.

    Okay I think this is moderately accurate. I do think that’s what might be happening

    What happened in your childhood is that your mother didn’t really care about your emotional needs: she didn’t care if your father’s anger outbursts hurt you. Moreover, she told you to accept it without any resistance. She basically told you your emotions don’t matter (in this case fear and anger), and that you should be able to control your anger and pretend that it’s not there. She told you that you should silently take the verbal “beatings” and be a good, obedient boy.
    In other words, your mother didn’t have much regard for your emotional needs. She didn’t let you have boundaries. Or to be rightfully upset for being mistreated. And it felt horrible. It felt like a prison. It felt so horrible that you left home at the age of 17.
    She didn’t let you set boundaries, and so you didn’t get the chance to learn how to set boundaries. The only way to protect yourself from being invaded was to leave. To remove yourself from the situation/relationship completely.

    Again accurate. Because boundaries felt like I’m being disobedient. Not a “good” in their perspective. So it was nearly impossible for me to put my needs first than that others.
    Like okay I started travelling yet somewhere I’m feeling guilty I’m not spending time with my siblings and family, specially my sister since she gave birth to a baby boy. even though I spent 3 months at my hometown. They told me to stay and like take care of my sister but still just listening to my grandpa nowadays boils my blood he’s old and sick so I don’t like to disrespect so I just wanted to leave. I did what’s good for myself. I raised my voice. Yet still I feel guilty for that.
    I had to told them even though I’m doing a remote job. I need lil more peaceful environment to focus on work and at home I can’t do that.

    So this is I think what’s happening: in a romantic relationship, when you feel that the person doesn’t care about your needs – and it could be that even a minor thing can trigger such a feeling – your knee-jerk reaction is to want to leave the relationship. Even if you don’t leave physically, you start withdrawing emotionally, and the intimacy is lost for you. Intimacy is not an option any more.
    So instead of working to repair the relationship – and maintain emotional connection and intimacy – you put a stop on intimacy. You block it. Even if you stay in the relationship, you stay in a self-defense mode, with your shields up (we’ve talked about the shield/armor around your heart).

    Hmm I see. Good analysis. I think it’s like the sergeant you mentioned before. Once he’s aware that there’d be an attack. All he thinks about is war. Not peace.

    And I think one aspect of this self-defense mode is the superiority/inferiority dynamic, where you feel less vulnerable if you can feel superior than your partner.
    In the relationship with your father, you felt inferior and never good enough. It seems that with a romantic partner, you never want to feel that way: worthless, unlovable, not good enough. And so you either avoid relationships altogether, or if you opt for a relationship, you want to feel better than your partner. Because that’s how you feel safe(r) from her criticism.

    Yes and also because of that my self esteem went lower so like even if I get women out of my “league” (It happened most of the time, Physically or career wise) I’d just question my worth like how did I get this kind of women? She way better than me there’s no way this is gonna be long term. Sooner or later she’d know that she’s somehow “better” than me and she’d obviously choose something better and leave. And I think that’s where superiority/inferiority dynamic is happening. and because of that I mostly tried keep on edge and improving myself like lil better than her.

    I think that’s why you also want to perfect yourself as much as possible before getting married:
    [I said] Maybe loving hard also means that you need to work hard to be lovable? That you need to be successful, so she would love you (“she can always find a rich husband but a for a guy, he got to be something good”)?
    [you replied] Kind of yes I guess like trying to perfecting the relationship and my partner too.
    I imagine it’s because the idea of being stuck with someone who criticizes you all the time (such as a criticizing, judgmental wife) is unbearable.
    But I think also the idea of being stuck with a woman who is full of faults, who is unaware of her issues and refuses to work on herself – is equally unbearable to you:

    Yes Exactly
    I just don’t want to deal with the women who aren’t even self aware about their traumas and not actively working on it. Because effort is something that really attractive to me. Kind of a priority.
    In your last post you said the girl should be similar to you:
    I don’t think that some damaged people but hmm more like someone I can resonate with a little, Not too much different from me so it would be easier to open up for me.
    Putting all this information together, it seems to me that your perfect partner is someone who has similar issues, i.e. someone who similarly like you doesn’t feel good enough and wants to “perfect” herself.

    Ah right Eureka moment haha! You right she kind of “Fulfil” those criteria and that’s why I felt good with her

    Now this latest girl has issues as well, possibly some similar to yours (anger), but overall, she has bigger issues than you in terms of mental health. She also seems interested in working on herself (she has been in therapy for 4 years), which is a must for you.
    So right there you’ve got 2 potential attraction points: she has similar but greater issues than you, and she is (at least in theory) interested in self-improvement.
    You also said she is mysterious:
    I think I was curious because she seemed little bit mysterious at first. … She smokes, she’s dramatic and her anger is always on the edge. I tried to understood why she’s the way she is and I noticed that it’s just her coping mechanisms, At heart she’s kind and loving woman.
    It could be that you were intrigued by her anger (because it reminded you of your father), and started hoping that underneath her anger you might find a “kind and loving woman”. So she would be someone similar to your father, and yet different: someone who appears rough and angry on the outside, but is actually kind and loving underneath. This might have been a hope and the excitement that your inner child felt in the presence of this “mysterious” woman.
    Maybe I got carried away too much here. But in any case, I can see why you were intrigued by her, even if she appears the “opposite of what you like” (another friend told me how she is opposite of what I like).

    Yes that could be also the thing. But nowadays who wants to show their true self? She mentioned few times how hard it is for her to open up and being vulnerable. But she makes me angry too. Like on Weekend she texted like She missed talking to me. I replied who’s stopping you? and then she replies me for that 2 days after with a funny IG reel. And I have much better things to do than focusing on someone like her who isn’t sure of anything and changes colour like a chamaeleon. Like I’m exhausted with dating games. Like if it’s a Yes or no. and confusing vibes. With Casual I can at least be straight forward and clear like hey I’m working on myself and I can’t commit with you for a full fledge relationship but I wouldn’t mind spending a good time with you if you’re okay with it. I want clear and straight forward things. NO BS. That way there’s also good possibility of gaining a friendship first which is must having a good time or like you know not feel alone since we’re all social creatures. And from friendship there’s also good possibility of deepen the relationship if things go well. Because I know my intentions are good and I’d prefer the same from her. and another pattern that I noticed is that if I’m good friends with a person I’d try be vulnerable with them more easily

    But just because this recent woman which I barely talked to her for like 2 weeks. We can’t say that I’m attracted to troubled people. Can we? But yeah she’s more troubled that’s for sure.
    Well, you were attracted to a troubled person in the past (your first LDR), with whom you stayed for more than 3 years. And you said she was your best LDR.
    Maybe I am looking too much into this, and I apologize if I am talking nonsense. But still, here’s what I am thinking: perhaps the reason why you considered her your best relationship is because she fulfilled the 3 criteria that I listed above: 1) similar but greater issues than you, 2) openness (at least declarative) to self-improvement and change, and 3) openness to being coached/helped by you, as someone who is “further along” on the self-development journey? Perhaps these are the “attraction points” that make you fall in love with a girl?
    Please note: this is just an assumption. Think about it, and see if it resonates at all. If yes, then it’s kind of a formula of how you fall in love, a formula which is more or less based on self-defense. It doesn’t really allow for intimacy and vulnerability.
    Let me know what you think. And I apologize if I went overboard with my assumptions and analysis.

     

    I like the word “Formula of How I Love” and no you didn’t go overboard and I request that you do. I’d prefer a brutal honestly.
    I mean it may have been somewhat true in past but I think now my formula of love has been changed. Or I at least have to meet someone so I can experiment/explore about this further.

    But I thought about it a lil and let me tell you things what kind of women attracts me the most or like kind of feeling of melting for her (Is that similar to love?)

    Similar life values & Someone who have the same priorities so we can support each other in our goals/shared goals
    Honesty & Trust – For me Love comes after those two things
    Feeling of Unconditional love – I know in past and also from my childhood I mostly felt ‘Conditional’ love. So I want to have proper feeling like what actually feels like when a person loves you unconditionally.
    I want to mention that in my 1st LDR I did feel unconditional love but not the level of reassurance that I’d like with that so it was a shaky feeling

    Kind to others (Specially animals)
    Empathic (Thanks for making me realize value for being empathic)
    Have some passion
    Creativity – I know I’m not that much creative person but I absolutely admire various kind of arts. So l like Art (Woman) creating an Art? How awesome is that? Another thing Is that I don’t know if its true or not but I think creative woman would be better at expressing her emotions. Something I can learn from her
    And above all someone who values of words and even more the actions. Because again Efforts are sexy. Show me how you love instead of just saying things.

    I know relationships aren’t about transactions. But I’m expecting these things because I know I can provide those things.

    #433933
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    I don’t know why quoting isn’t’ working as it should be. But I’ll try to come up with a fix next time.

    #434133
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi SereneWolf,

    (just as a side note, quoting is working fine for me: you select (copy-paste) the text you want to quote, and you press the quotation mark button)

    How you doing?

    I am not doing that well, since some old health issues (knee problems) resurrected again, which have magically disappeared in the last 1.5 years, since I’ve been suffering from back pain. Well now they are back, so now I need to start dealing with that too…aarrgh… I hope it’s temporary though and will get better…

    I finally started my travel journey! Yaaaaay!
    I started with world’s tallest statue, Statue of Unity. It was so much fun.

    Oh wow, congratulations! I’ve checked the Statue of Unity (didn’t even know about it), and oh my, it’s 182 m high, which is almost double the height of Statue of Liberty! Must admit, it’s not that beautiful :), but it is impressive, for sure. How did you cope with the high temperatures that were measured in India recently?

    no you didn’t go overboard and I request that you do. I’d prefer a brutal honestly.

    I am glad you don’t mind me being “brutally honest”, i.e. sharing my theory about what is possibly going on for you in a romantic relationship. So basically, a relationship for you means war, not peace (or at least it meant that till now):

    I think it’s like the sergeant you mentioned before. Once he’s aware that there’d be an attack. All he thinks about is war. Not peace.

    You expect to be attacked/judged/criticized, and you prepare for it by putting up your shield as soon as you feel some small conflict or disagreement. And even before you get into a relationship, you count on being attacked (and judged and criticized), and so you want to prevent that by perfecting yourself as much as possible, so you can be “good enough” and not that susceptible to criticism:

    Yes and also because of that my self esteem went lower so like even if I get women out of my “league” (It happened most of the time, Physically or career wise) I’d just question my worth like how did I get this kind of women? She way better than me there’s no way this is gonna be long term. Sooner or later she’d know that she’s somehow “better” than me and she’d obviously choose something better and leave. And I think that’s where superiority/inferiority dynamic is happening. and because of that I mostly tried keep on edge and improving myself like lil better than her.

    This sounds like the imposter syndrome: the belief that you are not good enough, that you are a fake, and that you will be “found out” sooner or later. You mentioned it once with regard to your job, but it seems that it applies to your love life as well.

    In fact, maybe your imposter syndrome is slowly weakening in the work setting (you said you feel quite good about yourself at your new job, and that the environment is very supportive too). But it may still be present in romantic relationships?

    The core of the imposter syndrome is the belief that you are not good enough. It seems you believe you are not handsome enough and that you don’t have a good enough/well-paid enough job (It happened most of the time, Physically or career wise). Perhaps you also believe you are not creative enough (I know I’m not that much creative person)?

    So you’d need to work on telling yourself that you are good enough to have a healthy, fulfilling relationship, that you can offer a lot, that you have all these great qualities (including empathy), and that you are a catch, not an impostor!

    Similarly like you were telling yourself about being a good work force – being an asset, not a liability – you need to be telling yourself about being a good partner. Do you think you can do that?

    In fact, you’ve already listed what qualities you value in a partner, so you can check yourself for those qualities…

    If I may make two remarks about it:

    Honesty & Trust – yes, sounds good, but are you aware that you actually lack trust when it comes to romantic relationships? You don’t trust that the person doesn’t want to harm you. You prepare for war…

    Feeling of Unconditional love – hmmm I think accepting the person as they are, without wanting to change anything major on them – would be a better goal. Because it’s okay to have certain expectations on our partner, but also to view them with love and acceptance, not as flawed and in need of change. If we cannot accept our partner as they are, but want them to change in some major way, that’s not a healthy relationship.

    Okay, perhaps that can be called unconditional love – accepting the person as they are, without requiring or expecting them to change in significant ways. In short, love and accept the person in front of you, don’t expect them to change 🙂

    That’s a principle you haven’t followed in your first and even your second LDR (because you wanted the girl to change). But I think you’ve learned in the meanwhile that it’s not the way to go.

    But nowadays who wants to show their true self? She mentioned few times how hard it is for her to open up and being vulnerable.

    So she is similar to you then? 🙂

    But she makes me angry too. Like on Weekend she texted like She missed talking to me. I replied who’s stopping you? and then she replies me for that 2 days after with a funny IG reel.

    Okay, so she acted vulnerable, expressing that she misses talking to you. But then you came back with a very non-vulnerable response, something like: “well if you miss me, why don’t you write more?” No wonder it took her 2 days to reply, and it was with some funny video. So she tried being vulnerable, but you shut her down, and of course she doesn’t want to be even more vulnerable, so she starts playing it “cool” too, waiting 2 days to reply and then sending a funny video.

    However, if she was trying to indirectly accuse you of not writing more frequently (i.e. not initiating conversations, or being slow to respond), while you know that it’s not the case, then I can understand your non-vulnerable response. Because if she is the one who ghosts you from time to time, or doesn’t reply on time etc, then it would make sense to be a bit sarcastic with her and not fall for her subtle accusations.

    So you’d need to see: is she really ambivalent and “changes colour like a chamaeleon”, while you are steadily present and responsive? Or you too are playing games, not wanting to show too much interest – and that’s why she is constantly switching from hot to cold?

    In other words: is only she playing games, or you are playing games too?

    And I have much better things to do than focusing on someone like her who isn’t sure of anything and changes colour like a chamaeleon. Like I’m exhausted with dating games. Like if it’s a Yes or no. and confusing vibes.

    As I said, you’d need to ask yourself: is she the only one who is sending confusing vibes, or you are doing the same?

    With Casual I can at least be straight forward and clear like hey I’m working on myself and I can’t commit with you for a full fledge relationship but I wouldn’t mind spending a good time with you if you’re okay with it. I want clear and straight forward things. NO BS.

    When you say casual, you’re talking about FWB, right? Not committing to a full fledged relationship, but having a good time with the girl?

    So would you like to be FWB with this new girl? Have you told her that? Because as far as I know, you refused a regular relationship, but you didn’t tell her you’d like FWB, right? You weren’t really “clear and straight forward”.

    Not that I support FWB relationships – I don’t think they are clear and straightforward at all. But still, ask yourself: did you tell her what you really want? And is it what you really want?

    That way there’s also good possibility of gaining a friendship first which is must having a good time or like you know not feel alone since we’re all social creatures. And from friendship there’s also good possibility of deepen the relationship if things go well.

    Hmm. It never happened with you though, because all of your female friendships ended up with the girl finding a boyfriend and sort of “abandoning” you, or at least not having that level of closeness with you anymore. So you’ve never progressed from friends to lovers.

    In fact, if I understood well, being friends and keeping it platonic is what enabled you to open up and be emotionally vulnerable with a girl. Because you didn’t feel the usual fear that you feel in intimate relationships. So you could relax and be more authentic, rather than being on guard, preparing for a battle…

    and another pattern that I noticed is that if I’m good friends with a person I’d try be vulnerable with them more easily

    Yeah, you were able to open up with girls whom you viewed as strictly platonic. So that might be a catch-22: that you can’t really be open and vulnerable with someone whom you consider more than friends. Because that’s what activates the fear response (fear of intimate relationship) and you go into the self-defense mode.

    In other words, it could be that “benefits” trigger a fear response for you, so once you get involved in a sexual relationship, you start being on guard and the intimacy and openness (and lack of fear) that you experienced as “friends only” is gone.

    So it could be that FWB wouldn’t really work for you. Actually you’ve tried it briefly with the doctor, but it didn’t work out and you eventually called it quits. I am guessing that even if she let you “off the hook” and dropped expectations about commitment, you still felt the basic fear that you feel in a sexual/intimate relationship, and that’s why you left?

    Because I know my intentions are good and I’d prefer the same from her.

    Well, as things stand at the moment, your main intention is not to get hurt. And you think you can achieve that by first being in a FWB situation, which will then gradually progress into a committed relationship, if all goes fine.

    But that’s a myth. First, because as soon as sex gets involved, it seems that your fear gets activated and you block vulnerability, and with it, the prospect of a long-term, committed, emotionally intimate relationship.

    And second, because FWB is not a good form of relationship for a girl either, because most girls want attachment and do get attached if being physically intimate.

    The girl might pretend that she doesn’t want a committed relationship, and that it’s all cool for her, but she actually does care (like the doctor did) and is getting hurt in such a relationship.

    Or the girl herself has intimacy issues and fears commitment, but in that case, she can’t be a good candidate for a long-term, committed relationship. So for example, if you are planning to find a potential future wife out of the FWB pool, you most likely won’t find her.

    You know what they say: you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t have fun in a non-committed, casual relationship and then expect that it over time turns into a committed, loving relationship that will potentially last a lifetime. Most girls don’t work like that. And you neither, as it seems 😉

    So when you say “my intentions are good”, I do think that your fear is governing your intentions when it comes to romantic relationships. And if you fear, it cannot be a basis for any kind of deep, loving relationship.

    Your fear cannot be solved (or dissolved) by going the FWB route either – I hope I’ve shown you that it’s kind of an internal contradiction and catch-22. And a very suboptimal solution, both for you and the girl involved.

    So… there is only one way to deal with your fear: heal it. If you try to avoid it and work around it, you end up with bad solutions, such as FWB or the sailor approach (just “benefits”, no friendship). None of those protect you from fear, but only add to the pain.

    You know the saying: “The only way out is through”. Which means: facing and healing the fear. (I could tell the same to myself, in another area of life. But anyway, no workarounds are possible…)

     

    #434144
    SereneWolf
    Participant

    Hi Tee,

    I am not doing that well, since some old health issues (knee problems) resurrected again, which have magically disappeared in the last 1.5 years, since I’ve been suffering from back pain. Well now they are back, so now I need to start dealing with that too…aarrgh… I hope it’s temporary though and will get better…

    Ohh I’m sorry to hear that. Knee and back pain, both. That’s hard to deal with. I hope you find the strength to deal with that pain. Try to rest as much as you can and don’t push yourself too much. I hope your pain eases up soon.

    To get to the essence, I understand your point of view. But are you suggesting me to find someone and have a committed relationship just when I started my travelling journey? Like I mentioned I don’t want LDR again.

    I mean I know as a good mentor you’re trying to point out the things and without facing that fear maybe there wouldn’t be true healing. Because all this time I just tried to tip my toes in the river instead of actually diving in and start swimming.

    Before I wasn’t very clear , But now I know that my real fear is being vulnerable with someone I try to be intimate with. That’s something I need to work on.

    But question is should my priority right now should be only working on relationships? or my self esteem? Or the sense of feeling good enough?

    I also wanted to mention that I started reading the book from the Vex King, Good Vibes, Good Life: How Self-Love Is the Key to Unlocking Your Greatness. Only read few pages (Because my focus span is still ain’t good) and I’m enjoying it.

    So would you like to be FWB with this new girl? Have you told her that? Because as far as I know, you refused a regular relationship, but you didn’t tell her you’d like FWB, right? You weren’t really “clear and straight forward”.

    Like I said I don’t want to continue  with this girl. We’re not enemies so we can talk sometime and that’s about it. Because even for FWB I have some ground rules that I follow and she doesn’t meet that area. FWB for me is more than casual sex. and I talked to my friend who warned me about her and she said she have many options so maybe that’s why she be playing games like who wins and I don’t want to be a part of that game. and I don’t understand what’s wrong in telling “well if you miss me, why don’t you write more?” Because I didn’t missed talking to her that much.

    I’ll write second part later on.

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