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This topic contains 735 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  anita 6 days, 11 hours ago.

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  • #316793

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    So, do you think that because they never valued us and we sensed it far before we had any true awareness – it made us feel no one values us (especially since others are bad) —> baseline hostility especially at people. Assuming bad, magnifying bad, assuming we have it bad – almost always.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Cali Chica.
    #316797

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    “we sensed it far before we had any true awareness”- no, we did have true awareness when we noticed she didn’t love us- we didn’t have the education of later on, using vocabulary and terms from books, but we had perfect of awareness.

    It was because it hurt too much that we closed our access to that awareness aka disassociated and as we earned knowledge from books and such, we got confused, all those terms but so little awareness of early childhood.

    “it made us feel no one values us”- in the beginning mother was Everyone, and without her there was no  one. She not valuing us felt like the end of the world, so-> removed that from awareness.

    This is in the core. Other people being bad, according to her, empathy for her because of other people hurting her- that is around the core, next level of trouble.

    anita

    #316799

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    The biggest take home for me from this response was the dissociation that we had because we saw and knew the reality,  but it was far too much to bear. Far too painful.

    It’s been a while since I have focused on dissociation or that we have discussed it. I would like to discuss this more if you would like to as well. In the beginning of my journey, I read a lot about it a ton – given that I felt numb about everything – and this Concept deserves another deeper look. It is the right timing

    Perhaps we can continue where we left off tomorrow morning, I’m going to head home from work now and perhaps go for a run, it’s these scattered days of fall before winter that are perfect for being outside. I Hope you have a pleasant evening, and there is no hail storm in your way.

    If I think of something later in regards to our last exchange, I might write about it this evening, but regardless we will touch base tomorrow morning.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Cali Chica.
    #316803

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I was thinking the same thing- continue tomorrow. This is the right time for me too, to  take a break. I hope you have a good afternoon/ evening. The hail stopped long ago, rained and now a break in the rain.

    anita

    #316963

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    The following is my Wikipedia based preparation for our ROAR topic (I know you are a MD and the following science part is very basic and simplistic scientific information but I think it will do for what we need. Also added are and points and quotes from wiki’s entry on anger that I think may be jump-start points for discussion:

    Our emotional experiences of Fear and Anger are very similar and involve the very same physiological processes made possible primarily by two chemicals that function as neurotransmitters (released by neurons in our brains)  and hormones (released by a gland into the blood): adrenaline, aka epinephrine and noradrenaline, aka norepinephrine. The two increase the blood output of the heart, blood flow to the muscles and blood sugar level, preparing the body for Flight or Fight. These chemicals increase the experiences of arousal, alertness, vigilance, restlessness, and great.. discomfort and distress.

    We experience fear when we perceive “the threatening behavior of another outside force,” but we perceive anger when we perceive “deliberate harm or unfair treatment by others”. My thoughts here: we are  likely to feel way less anger when hail damages our car than when a person does, even if the hail damage is greater. We are likely to feel way less anger, if any, at a fellow driver who hits our car because of an unpreventable, unpredictable stroke, than at a driver who hits our car because the driver texts while driving.

    We are likely to feel more anger for harm done to us by a person if the person intentionally aimed at harming us than for harm done to us by a person being inattentive, not  aiming at hurting us.

    We feel anger following “perceived deliberate harm or unfair treatment by others” and the aim of anger is “correction of wrong behaviors, promoting social justice”, “To avoid conceived loss or fear that something will be taken away”.

    “The angry person usually finds the cause of their anger in an intentional, personal, and controllable aspect of another person’s behavior”.

    “The behaviors associated with anger are designed to warn aggressors to stop their threatening behavior.. anger is connected to the impulse of self preservation. It is shared by human and other animals. and it occurs when the animal is tormented or trapped”.

    “At the beginning of life the human infant struggles indiscriminately against any restraining force, whether it be another human being of a blanket which confines his movements.”

    People feel angry when they sense an offense that someone is responsible for and “when they feel they can still influence the situation”.

    “angry people are more likely to demonstrate correspondence bias- the tendency to… rely more on stereotypes, and pay less attention to details and more attention to the superficial… unlike other ‘negative’ emotions such as sadness and fear, which promote analytical thinking”.

    “Showing anger during a negotiation may increase the ability of the anger expresser to succeed in negotiation… the anger expressers were perceived as stubborn, dominant and powerful.. people were inclined to easily give up to those who were perceived by them as powerful and stubborn, rather than soft and submissive”.

    anita

    #316965

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I see that you just posted.  I will read and respond to your post tomorrow morning, when I have clarity and a little more time.  I look forward to it, and I am glad that we will have a “systematic discussion.” Rest well the rest of the afternoon and this evening.  Sending you a smile from the east coast.

    #316969

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    A smile from the east coast has been received and one from the west coast has just been sent. Talk to you later tomorrow then, whenever it is the right time for you.

    anita

    #317233

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    angry people are more likely to demonstrate correspondence bias- the tendency to… rely more on stereotypes, and pay less attention to details and more attention to the superficial… unlike other ‘negative’ emotions such as sadness and fear, which promote analytical thinking”.

    How interesting this quote is. Just this week we talked about the concept of perhaps misjudging my sister. And seeing qualities in her, maybe based on stereotypes and maybe less attention was paid to details.

    I wasn’t sure how to begin my reply to your post, I read it a few times yesterday and today. It is an excellent post- I would like to book mark it as I know that going back to it over and over will allow me to get more out of it depending on what I am feeling at the time, and the type of situation I am in. We both know learning is also very dependent on our current state of mind, and the current present ability to absorb new information.

    Based on your post, I saw that anger has so much to do with sensing another person’s accountability in creating a negative situation.

    A point that really stood out to me is “the purpose of anger is to aim at correcting wrong behaviors.” You have spoken about this, about having to go out into the world and undo the wrong that was put onto your mother, making it right for her. Same for me I see, I was going out there to be a warrior and fight these battles for my mother, subconsciously believing that if I would fight these battles she would have some peace or happiness, or that retribution would be gained and lead to some positive benefit.

    Of course looking back I can think of a few small scenarios in which I had done this, it never worked out this way. In fact it always backfired and ended up making me or my mother, or both look even worse.  I remember a small example of having some boy trouble in medical school and opening up to my mother about it, and her response was of course to be vengeful and angry. So I carried the sentiment with me back to Philadelphia. When I spoke to this guy, I pretty much reiterated exactly what my mother would say to me, like a parrot. I remember his look was dumbfounded. It was as though I was speaking gibberish.  I remember becoming even more angry at this time, thinking that he was so callous and unemotional. Exactly the mother voice. She always perceive people who didn’t understand her hysteria to be disloyal, dishonest, and not trustworthy people. Because of course she deemed herself as someone who always spoke the truth, and her emotionality led to the fact that she was a truth teller and honest of heart, while others were Stonehearted and not good. I believed this. Of course at the end of the day that boy trouble was small, and it wasn’t like that this boy was important to begin with – but the story is. If I think back to this almost 10 years later, I was speaking  gibberish. Yes I truly was.

    I adopted what my mother was telling me: jump at the throat of this person, don’t take the whole context into the picture, don’t look at both sides of the story, and jump out with a weapon because everyone is out to get us. I was taught this, so of course this is difficult to get rid of with intellect. Of course now I am more educated, I do understand the concept of catastrophization and hysteria.  More educated of course in medicine, and life, and more educated about what the mother voice really is.

    I was thinking today about how anger is so harmful to us. They always talk about how anger is like drinking poison but expecting the other person to die. We have all heard of this so many times, but it is beginning to make more sense. I am only just starting to see the true detrimental effects of anger. We Talk about win-win so much here, and anger is ——lose lose. No one wins.

    Let’s think of a scenario, I am snappy with my husband as soon as he walks in, because I have anger that I am unable to contain, something happened to me at work and it was brewing inside of me all the way home. As soon as he opens the door, roar it leashes out. Of course now he is annoyed, and he closes off and the interaction with us becomes cold and distant. I may feel guilty, and then try to make up for it, but it doesn’t work. Or instead I may not feel bad and guilty, I may feel angry and feel that he is not being supportive. Either way I feel bad. Interesting at 34 years old I am saying this out loud as though it should be common sense. But it’s not. It Doesn’t matter of it sounds simple- more importantly, It it’s true.

    Either way I feel bad with anger.  Suffering is increased.

    And yes suffering for the opposite party is increased too, but for this conversations sake we are focusing on us.

    So someone like me, and perhaps yourself, I feel entitled to this anger. I think to myself, look what annoying thing happened to me at work! How dare this happen to me, I have a right to be angry, of course I am angry! It is not fair that this happens to me and I am mistreated like this! How could I not be angry! Feeling the need to go out there and undo that harm, roar!!! And when husband comes home, I want to relay this to him, perhaps I want him to feel equally as angry! Look what happened to me! Aren’t you angry, aren’t we angry! Let’s roar together!!!!

    I remember my mother being so happy when someone would get as upset as her about a topic, it was so validating to her, she found great comfort in making someone as emotional as herself. How disgusting! Perhaps subconsciously I may find comfort in this too. Maybe not at this exact moment, but at the beginning of my relationships in the past when I was more hysterical and emotional without really thinking, perhaps I too wanted the opposite partner to be equally as hysterical. I can definitely see that…

    So anyway, back to a lose lose scenario, now I am suffering more because I feel bad. In the compulsive mind I felt that leashing my anger out would help me feel better, but the consequence was perhaps one second of emotional release, followed by an even worse feeling.

    So today, after reading your post yesterday, I really kept this in mind. Especially the aspects of judging situations by stereotypes and superficialities, and not necessarily paying attention to emotions and other intricacies. I thought that was interesting, considering that I am someone who is  in tune with many people, and I believe myself to be a good reader of people, so how can I not be so in tune with this? And this is because of the baseline hostility. It is also because of projecting the mother into other people. It is also because of her voice. Perhaps all of these things are sort of separate in small ways, but also all at the same time tied together.

    Baseline hostility as you mentioned, assumes the worst. It assumes that someone is out to get us, and it assumes the worst of a person.

    okay…

    But I took it to a different place today, I thought about the concept of self suffering. As above the lose lose scenario of anger leading to more personal suffering. And I kept that pearl in mind. So, I am at work, and I think a bad thing about person X, I find myself getting angry about something about person X. This increases the neurotransmitters going through my body, norepinephrine and adrenaline increase, my shoulders tense up, my heart might start beating faster, I might start clenching my jaw.  Knowing my own neural pathways and knowing myself now I start going into a tailspin. I start thinking about how person X is annoying, and then I start thinking about how gosh why does everyone act like this, and then it might lead to well why don’t I act like that, and other people get away with it. And then it may lead to thinking how everything is unfair and bad. Just an example. Lose lose – in brain and body, end result: feel wound up tight and uneasy. Feeling bad.

    So today I tried a different approach. Something that person X was slightly perturbing.  OK. But whether I get angry or not about it -it’s going to affect my own suffering. This is the new point- how can I increase feeling good? And decrease feeling bad?

    So I thought about this person, and I thought about how he is so different than me. I thought about how we are almost two people who speak entirely different languages, and therefore many things that he does are not taken by me as normal or innate. And perhaps many things that I do are probably not taken by him as normal or innate.   I thought about this, and slowly the thought was put to rest. It did not go into a tailspin. It did not grow bigger and bigger and tumble down into a Downward spiral. Nope the thought entered my mind I processed it and then it left! Until this moment that I am writing about it, it didn’t bother me at all! That is the real work right there. Wow!

    Of course this is one example, and it is very difficult to continue this in daily life, but practice starts with one example. And I am happy to share this one.  The end goal of all of this was to feel better. I am not going to change him whether I become angry or not. And he is not going to change me.  No, I am definitely not someone who believes that never being angry is the goal, as I do believe that having true emotions and authenticity is the true goal. You know this. But our work here is about having intrinsic anger that leads to suffering, which is entirely unnecessary. Jumping to anger as a first emotion, which is unnecessary and harmful to ourselves.  Anger that leads to Unnecessary suffering.

    I also learned today that when I approach this in the second manner, I had a lot of mental space left. If there was a scale, if I approached the situation in the first way with anger:that led to a circuit of different thoughts, my brain capacity would be nine out of 10 saturated. In the second way: I felt like I was only three out of 10 saturated. I had 70% more neurons available for peace or other thoughts. I wasn’t entirely encompassed by these thoughts.

    I noticed this it was a palpable feeling of having more freedom in my brain.  I think this is a specially key, because that burn out of the brain by rumination and angry thoughts is extremely toxic and harmful.

    Lastly, having space in the brain will allow me to really understand what I am truly feeling. As you know, something that I have been really struggling with is jumping to a compulsive action or thought based on patterns or the mother voice, before assessing what I truly think and feel about it.  Knee jerk.  This means that I never truly processed anything, I just reacted. I never allowed myself to sit with thoughts or feelings first. Always reacting never processing. This is something I truly want to work on as it will lead to the greatest outcome.  When you have 70% mental space available you can process so much more than when you have 10%. Right? And that is the real work.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Cali Chica.
    #317245

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I am glad you posted and looking forward to read and reply to you tomorrow morning. I hope you have a restful night.

    anita

    #317323

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    “I adopted what my mother was telling me: jump at the throat of this person, don’t take the whole context into the picture, don’t look at both sides of the story, and jump  out with a weapon because everyone is out to get us. I was taught this”-

    – so girl cali chica thought she and mother were a team, “everyone is out to get us“- cali chica and mother against the world.

    Interesting how you described wanting to be a team-in-anger with husband: “Look what happened to me! Aren’t you angry, aren’t we angry! Let (us) roar together!!!!”

    Anger was a bonding moment with your mother, a team-in-anger: “I remember my mother being so happy when someone would get as upset as her about a topic, it was so validating to her”- nothing you wanted more than to make her happy, so of course you joined her in anger.

    “So, I am at work, and I think a bad thing about person X, I find myself getting angry.. my shoulders tense up, my heart might start beating faster.. clenching my jaw.. I start thinking about how person X is annoying.. why does everyone act like this.. other people get away with it.. everything is unfair and bad.. wound up tight and uneasy. Feeling bad… I thought about how (X) is so different than me.. we are almost two people who speak entirely different languages“.

    My input today: learning not to automatically and impulsively react to intense anger (“jumping to a compulsive action”) and creating that “mental space” you mentioned is work done in many anger managements workshops, classes, group therapy and so forth. This does not require insight into the past, it is the learning and practice of skills. This is not what I will be attending to here, on this post.

    Your anger: when your mother got angry at others, you got angry with her, a team. She looked and sounded happy when you joined her in anger, so you were encouraged to do just that, get angry with her. And you definitely did not want to be one of those other people she got angry at! Never will cali chica be one of those people unaware of pain and suffering and unfairness, those happy go lucky people who have it easy in life, daring to attend to their own needs and get away with it!

    Loyal to mother, loyal to the team, cali chica will be  like her mother and unlike all those other people, she will suffer like her mother and never be like all those other people.

    And even though from time to time, your mother turned against you, and you became one of those people she was angry at, you didn’t figure something like this: but wait, I am not like those other people, why is she angry at me?? Instead you kept your loyalty to her and continued to be unlike those other people. Loyal to her mother, loyal to a non-existing team. Even after a long time of no contact, doesn’t matter. She is still that warrior, looking for those other people who are so unlike her mother-and-herself, ready to fight them (heart beating fast, muscles contract, get tense, ready for attack).

    But the emperor wears no clothes- the other people are not unaware of pain and suffering. Other people are not happy go lucky. Other people are also suffering, many unselfish, giving and giving to others. And your mother, when she showed off her five-star-lifestyle to family in India, she was selfish, showing off, wanting them to envy her, wanting them to suffer envy. And she got away with it!

    Oh, it is your mother who got away with a whole lot.

    Those other people, they are not the enemy. Some are- those in prisons or should be in prison, but overall, the people at the workplace, on the street, they are not happy-go-lucky, selfish, getting-away-with-it people. You see them through your mother’s eyes. They are not that way, they are not aliens to the suffering mother-you team.

    There is no team!

    The others are not an alien species and they are not the enemy.

    anita

     

     

    #317351

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Happy Friday.  I did not get to read your post yet.  Crazy Friday, 18 cases, no lunch – impending headache.  I will take my time to read and reply likely on Monday.  I will think about what we spoke about over the weekend, and take my time to be mindful of any signs of baseline hostility or anger that is a knee-jerk reaction.  I have been very cognizant of this since this last week, and have had great success.  Have a great weekend and we shall continue our topic next week.

    #317355

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    Glad you had great success with topic 1, the ROAR aka baseline hostility. Have a restful, successful weekend and I hope to have the same. Here to continue our work next week.

    anita

    #317703

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I read your post yesterday and reflected on it.  I am going to break it down into segments so it is easier to follow along.  This topic 1, ROAR, is vital for the path. There are so many branches of it – that ROAR. Yet, the fundamental roots are what you have discussed above.

    1) Anger was a bonding moment with your mother, a team-in-anger:

    Yes it was.  As you know there were often times that  I would return home, and “find” things to talk about.  Controversial topics that would make mother entertained. Oh so and so is getting divorced, my mothers face would light up: see!! See! I told you she wasn’t really happy.  My mother’s energy lifted by her “ability” to  know better than others, and bask in the fact that in fact – others were NOT happier than she.  Sigh – she knew it didn’t she!

    I recall innately never really being interested in these topics or gossip, but yet robotically “dumbing” myself down to these conversations.  It was in fact to join in the team bonding.  to say yes! we unite, look at those idiotic people thinking they are so happy – they aren’t after all! or oh look at those selfish horrible people, ROAR at them together! Absolutely, you are right Anita.

    2) Never will cali chica be one of those people unaware of pain and suffering and unfairness,

    those happy go lucky people who have it easy in life, daring to attend to their own needs and get away with it!

    This one is key.  Absolutely key.  I thought about this throughout the day yesterday.  Luckily I had a slow relaxing Sunday during which I could let it sink in.

    1 – My loyalty and understanding of being a “good daughter” or person perhaps/a righteous one – involves never being those people who are unaware.  I must at all time be so aware of all the pain and suffering in the world, and that others cause us – and vocalize it.  It is my right! It is a must.  —– well why? (hmm good question – I tried to answer it – and there is no true answer more on this later)

    2 – The ROAR comes from anger and resentment that “those” people have it easy.  They think of themselves first – and they get away with it without repercussion.

    I am not sure if I ever mentioned this pearl – but it is important here. So as you know my mother had troubled relationships with her siblings here in America, it was the majority of my childhood that was focused on this, and why we were so alone on holidays – and how other people have great families and we don’t – etc etc

    So- my mother always spoke about  bad luck and jealousy.  She always said that if other people were selfish and just did whatever they wanted, it would be fine.  They would be respected, and people would still reach out to them and want to be their friend/have their company – and maybe even be more intrigued by them.

    But if she (us) did that, we would be pushed to the side and become alone.

    As in, if my mother just stopped “trying” and just did her own thing (whatever that is) and went on her merry way – she would NOT have the luck of having people still flock to her and want her in their life.  She would be forgotten. She may even be criticized.

    Thus, the concept of people attending to their own needs – and getting away with it – is even more key! The idea that there are those that do this and are successful and happy and worry free-  and then there is US – the opposite.  We are unable to do this.  We would not get away with this.  And if we try, we will just be alone – no one will care about us.

     

    So back to my loyalty of never being those people, the blissfully unaware that (god forbid) focus on their own lives.  How toxic to think this way. And yes during the wedding planning time and after, I was accused of being  just that! THOSE people.  And for a while there I believed it. I harassed my husband and believed that perhaps I was forgetting my poor mother and becoming smug and selfish.  And then slowly I realized that was hardly the case – as i was miserable! No one was winning, she was “miserable” and so was I.  Lose-lose.

    But as you stated, never during this time did my pattern shift – to think wait – how bogus – now I am getting accused of being those people, the type we were united against! It did not shift, but what I did start seeing is that everyone is “those people” everyone in the world to my mother, except her own self.

    At this stage in my life, I would hope that would correspond to the idea of – “those” people aren’t the enemy – and in fact the only “enemy” there ever was – was her.

    Afraid to focus on inner circle out of fear of being those people.  Out of fear of being “called out”for being selfish.

    Well has that happened? No…In fact no one cares.  Everyone is busy attending to their own inner circle.

    And if I don’t and continue to “sacrifice” my own needs/or that of my family – so not to risk being smug and blissful – what is gained? Misery for all.  Lose-lose.

    Only a fool would do this.

    #317707

    Cali Chica
    Participant

    to add- nothing bad has come from the short amount of time I acted like “those” people, focusing on my inner circle

    1) no one criticized me

    2) no one shunned me from their world (in fact I have been doing the limitation of who is in my life)

    3) there is no omnipresent being that judges this daily and says; scoff CC look at you, so different and selfish now,  It is hard to believe this as the mother voice to me IS that being

    If I understand the above, and slowly begin to true believe it, The ROAR will significantly diminish.  As I know, that the largest component of my ROAR right now – is “wanting to be those others” but still being held back by guilt/discomfort from the “omnipresent judger”

    #317715

    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    (This is a long post but I believe a very important one. It requires your patient, focused, reading)

    “there is no omnipresent being that judges… the mother voice to me IS that being”-

    A walk in memory late- January 2018: “at Disney World at the age of 10 or so, my sister was around 3 years old. I remember we were posing for a picture and a classic picturesque Disney World moment. My mom looks to the side and sees a family abundant with many family members 10 or 15 or so and says to us, wow are they so lucky they have such a huge family here with them wouldn’t that be nice”-

    – Mother is not looking at ten year old Cali Chica and saying: wow, aren’t I lucky, I have you CC! Cali Chica is sad that her mother is looking over there for happiness, not over here, where CC is. Two decades later, as CC tells the story, her focus is her mother, not herself. The camera in her memories screen is pointed to her mother, not to herself.

    Jan 2018: “I always wanted to know – what does it feel like to have a sense of relief – that (aah) feeling. Sure at the end of a yoga class I do feel slightly better, less tense in the muscles, more uplifted. But what does it feel like to take a deep breath in and out and let off some steam and feel a release.. and it makes sense why. Because my baseline has always been suffering and anxiety. I have no idea what it feels like to even come back from vacation and feel ‘lighter, more relaxed, at ease’ (sure some relief from headaches or muscle tension, and 10 percent better mentally but what does it feel like to REALLY FEEL better. Like oh you just got married – wow must be a huge sense of relief.-nope, don’t feel any better just the same (like body is tensely holding onto something unable to let go) ”

    – Cali Chica’s life experience has been the same no matter her life happenings and changing circumstances because she has been re- experiencing her mother’s (perceived) life history, a life history told to Cali Chica repeatedly, a story that is in the past, over and done with- no wonder Cali Chica’s life experience doesn’t change with her own changing life circumstances (vacations, marriage, etc..).

    CC has been re-experiencing something that never changes because it is a two dimensional story that she heard repeatedly, not something she experienced herself.

    (Jan 18): “inability to ever daydream, feel excited about the future – as above the baseline state is tense and not ever relieved, my mind doesn’t fathom anything different“- there it is, CC’s inability to experience anything different from how it feels to re-experience the same old, same old bad story that never changes, never becomes something different.

    “We always thought of it as: Mom’s life was so bad, everyone was bad to her, she had this magical childhood and life before she got married and moved here, and it all went downhill because how much others caused her harm.”

    – this is the bad Story that CC has been re-experiencing, a story that does not allow a different kind of experience.

    “I have been feeling as though my trauma and pain is stuck in my body (body aches, tension, headaches) and no amount of running, yoga, lifestyle changes will release it unless I work on ’emotional trauma release.’ What does that mean exactly?… I am breathing and ‘functioning’ but I am not living.  And I feel it boiling inside me recently – I feel this strong feeling that I want to explode – strong tension in my upper back, my body screaming.”-

    – the trauma and pain that is stuck in CC is her own story (not the mother’s story) screaming to be heard, her own muted voice (not the loud mother’s voice) aching to be actualized- In Disney World it is the sadness she experienced. What does it mean, “emotional trauma release”- it means you hear your own voice, experience your own life experience, not your mother’s. That “body screaming”- is your own Voice wanting to tell your Story.

    It’s all been about your mother, her alleged and perceived pain and suffering, her childhood, her marriage, even her affair, always her. What about Cali Chica, what about CC’s pain and suffering, childhood, marriage? No space to experience her own life when what is dominant in her brain is her mother’s story.

    Your mother’s life has always been a story you heard. Only a story. True, fictional, doesn’t matter.  Wherever you were, what you did, even no-contact, you have been re-experiencing a Story.

    “The first thought that comes to mind, is sad – very sad. Something like this: ‘my poor mother suffered a terrible life since she came to America, she dealt with abuse from family and others”- the Story that has kept you from experiencing something different. Notice the focus= mother.

    (Still Jan 18): “my poor mother.. and her focus then was me – yes it is toxic and has continued to be in adulthood – but she relies on that so much to the point she cried a month ago when I left .’How could I hurt her like this'”- you only imagined that your mother’s focus was on you. Reality has been that your focus was on her, so much so that no space has been available for you to experience anything other than Her Story.

    “The idea of losing her daughter is crippling to her.. when she felt she was ‘losing me’ even over the last year bc of her delusions related to my in laws – she was besides herself”-

    -CC’s real-life trauma is the idea of losing her mother. She only imagines it to be the other way around. It is CC who was “besides herself” over the fear of losing her mother, this is why she was so scattered as a child, forgetting things.

    “She would likely get our whole extended family involved, maybe even end up hospitalized due to deep despair, hysteria, and psychosis related to the idea of ‘losing me'”-

    -This is how desperate in real life CC has been for her mother; she only imagined it was the other way around. After all, fast forward- after a long time of no contact- last I heard, your mother came back from yet another vacation overseas, most recently, from Spain. No despair, hysteria or psychosis (not more than before NC). No hospitalization. No looking for you in the streets on nyc. I don’t think she even wrote and sent you a letter, did she.

    “If I wasn’t at a family event she was sad, If I was coming, she would be excited and her whole day would revolve around it… my mother made it her whole life that she ‘needs my help.'”-

    -no, it was CC who  was sad when her mother was sad, it was CC who  was excited to see her mother happy. It is CC’s life that revolved around her mother’s sadness and happiness. Not the other way around.

    It is CC who  “made it her whole life” to help her mother be happy- so that she can finally be seen and heard by her mother, no longer invisible and mute to her mother.. and to herself.

    In your many posts I don’t remember you ever mentioning that as a child you were happy to  see your mother, missing her, wanting to be with her, needing her. You wrote a lot about her being happy to see you, needing you– see, your own voice is mute and you inaccurately project it to your mother.

    “My mom was trying to live vicariously through me”- no, it is the other way around. Even long after No-Contact.

    Here is how it happened that CC’s own life experience became invisible and mute:

    June 2019: “I thought about young Cali Chica, She brought her mother a flower. Mother said: oh I used to have these in India all the time – these flowers.’-

    – She made your act of bringing her flowers not about you. She made it about her, her  life in India. Her story.

    “(CC) grew up: She brought her mother her new shiny engagement ring, thinking oh yay, my mother will be so happy and proud! Finally I got to the goal she wanted me to, a nice boy, and a nice engagement…Mother replies: oh I too am going to get a new diamond ring…she doesn’t even look at Cali Chica’s…Cali Chica then tries to say, oh you know my fiancé designed this and did this – shows the small details…her mother: not a glance, not a care.”-

    – you see, it is not true at all that your mother’s life revolved around you- you were invisible to her. She was blind to you as you interacted with her, made it all about her Story. She didn’t say: I like your choice of flowers, of a ring, of a nice boy. Tell me what you like about these flowers, this man..?

    -No, she turned it all around to.. Her Story.

    No wonder your focus has been on her story and not on your own life. She made it all about her- no acknowledgement of you as an individual person with your own tastes, feelings, thoughts, motivations, values. Do you see how it is farthest from the truth that her life revolved around you? She didn’t even see you or hear you. (And so, you didn’t see yourself or hear yourself).

    “At 22 I recall feeling that ‘breakdown’ and I usually went to my friends for the typical ups and downs – but I remember it was so bad I instantly called my parents. I recall talking to both parents and they said things like: we don’t know what to tell you, ever since you were young you’ve always had a problem. You came out of the womb crying and you continue still. We just don’t know what to do with you. This is too much you’re an adult now. I had totally forgot this until 2 weeks ago, something on TV reminded me and I told my husband and he was horrified.”

    cali sister’s recollection of the same event (posted on your own thread, not on hers): “I remember being there when my sister came home and finally opened up to my parents. I remember where I was sitting. I remember feeling tight. Like I wanted to explode. Like I wanted to elicit a stronger response from them… I saw my sister- coming for help. And like she said, all they continued to talk about even after she left was – how she’s always a problem. Never focuses on herself. Always focuses on friends and boys”-

    – you wrote “breakdown” inside quotes because you.. didn’t think it was a breakdown since your mother/ parents did not treat it like a breakdown? Is it that the breakdown became invisible because it was not seen as such… Definitely, there was no empathy for you, no visibility of your pain. Cali Chica was dismissed, once again, at 22. Unseen, unheard. Cali Chica’s is dismissed.

    In the context of a dismissed CC, her mother’s story became her non-changing, painful life experience, and her mother’s voice is what she hears, not her own.

    To experience something different (Accel, is that the word you chose?), it will take speaking your voice, point the camera away from her story and to your real-life experiences of past and present. Have your life center stage in your life, no longer her two dimensional story.

    In your posts today you wrote (quotes from here on are from today): “I would return home.. my mother’s face would light up.. My mother’s energy lifted.. .. robotically ‘dumbing’ myself down… we unite.. ROAR at them together”- the focus is on her being happy while you were robotic and dumb. And the “we unite” and “together”- there was just her, no “we”.

    “My loyalty and understanding of being a ‘good daughter’ or person perhaps/a righteous one – involves never being those people who are unaware.  I must at all time be so aware of all the pain and suffering in the world, and that others cause us – and vocalize it”-

    – this is it: being a good daughter meant that you at all time be so aware of .. her Story. The camera pointed at all times (wherever you are, no matter what is happening in your personal life) to her Story. And what is her Story: her “pain and suffering.. and that others cause (it)”.

    Notice, you wrote: “I must at all time be so aware of (her Story).. and vocalize it“- it is her Voice that is vocalizing her Story.

    “my mother had troubled relationships with her siblings.. it was the majority of my childhood that was focused on this“- this being your mother’s Story, chapter (whatever): Troubled Relationships with Her Siblings.

    my mother always spoke.. She always said… She would NOT have the luck of having people still flock to her and want her… She would be forgotten. She may even be criticized”

    “and then there is US.. We are unable to do this. We would not get away with it”- there never has been an us or a we. There was only her and an invisible, inaudible, robotic you experiencing a two dimensional story that is not yours.

    Cali Chica- we have to stop retelling Her two dimensional (and quite fictional)Story and start telling your three dimensional true-life story.

    anita

     

     

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