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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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Viewing 15 posts - 91 through 105 (of 166 total)
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  • #431598
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Roberta,

    “If you  two were in the habit of mini breakups & arguments & then kiss & make up then there maybe a presumption that you were still in an ongoing relationship with B therefore it was cheating.  If you thought that this was the final breakup then from your point of view, therefore not cheating.” Every time we broke up, we assumed it would be the last. But one week is not enough time to confirm that, especially since it was common for us to have these fights and break up and get back together in a few days. But this last one is a break up that happened early last month, so it’s been a month already so the break up lasted long enough to be considered a permanent break up. So is it still cheating? Based on your definition, probably not.

    Paradoxy

    #431625
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The more I talk to you, the more aware I become, the more broken I get

    I am very sorry, Paradoxy. I was rather harsh, specially in my last post, because I was trying to break through the thick veil, where you still wanted to find excuses for her and ascribe her behavior to stupidity and naivete, rather than manipulation. I was trying to tell you: don’t you see?? she is fooling you! Get away!

    But I am very sorry for what happened to you. Yes, she was manipulating you, and I actually found a “proof” that she was lying about the half-naked photo too. I’ll present it to you now, just in case she ever comes back claiming she was never lying and that it was all a “misunderstanding.”

    So on March 20, in your first post, you wrote that she admitted (back when it happened, in Nov 2022) that the man in the photo is her ex, whom she briefly got back together with, since she still had feelings for him:

    I confronted her when I realized she deleted it and she told me it was the ex that she still had feelings for, and it happened on the day after that we broke up from the decision that its better to not date at all. Obviously I was hurt and I broke up with her in that moment of pain but then I decided to take her back on the technicality that we were still broken up when this happened, so I cannot accuse her of cheating. She got forgiveness on a technicality.

    So basically she admitted to having slept with him, but you forgave her since on that particular day you were broken up, right?

    But then a few days ago, on April 9, you said that she later gave you a different explanation of the photo:

    She said that on the day she took the picture and video with her ex, she was actually in her towel with her ex’s sister who was removing her braids but when she got busy, the ex’s sister told the ex to remove the braids for her and so she just allowed him to remove her braids for her. Keep in mind that she was naked, but she had the towel wrapped around her body so her naked body is not visible to her ex.

    So now, according to this version, she claimed that she didn’t sleep with her ex, but that he was only helping her with her braids.

    So when the half-naked photo was originally taken, sometime in November 2022, she admitted she slept with the guy in the photo. Only you didn’t know at the time that this guy was also living with her, as her housemate. But then a year later, when you found out that the guy in the photo is actually her housemate ex, she told you a different story: that she didn’t sleep with him, but that he was only helping with her braids.

    In other words, she was lying…

    You probably forgot what she said a year ago, and so when she came up with this new explanation, in which she presented herself as innocent, you believed her. And she got away with a lie.

    I can imagine there were more examples like that. You actually said it yourself that you don’t remember exactly what happened more than a year ago, which is only normal:

    the issue is I don’t know the exact dates of her “cheating” and she said she doesn’t remember and since it has been more than a year, even my memory is not that accurate.

    I found another example, related to the prostitution case, where you in recent days remembered the events more favorably for her than what you stated in your first posts, some 3 weeks ago. Perhaps as you were arguing about these events in recent days and weeks, she was coming up with new versions of the story, different than what she told you even 3 months ago.

    So it seems to me that she was twisting the story all the time – to make it more favorable for herself – and you couldn’t follow it any more. And you wanted to believe her, and so you did.

    Anyway, I hope that you see now that she wasn’t innocent and oblivious, but unfortunately wanted to deceive you.

    Now everything feels fake. What if every moment we had was manipulated? What if all the happy moments I had were fake? What if I was being used the entire time? The realization is breaking me. I want to cry.

    I hear you, Paradoxy.  She was fake, I mean she wasn’t honest with you. She might have liked you, but she had her own demons and her own crooked ethics, which she learned from her aunt and probably the rest of her family too. That’s not an excuse at all – so please don’t see it as an excuse and a reason to reconcile. Because she did hurt you immensely.

    But it is a lesson, a learning experience, as you say. And you had this important lesson early in your life, at only 19. If you learn from it and heal what needs to be healed, you can have a much healthier relationship sometime down the line.

    You can still find a loving and caring woman to be your wife. But in order to do that, you’ll need to do two things: 1) heal the emotional wounds from your childhood, and 2) update your view about women – get rid of the false beliefs.

    But what now? I have no one. Not my parents. Not my friends. I am just all alone. Like I was, once before. My suffering is all for me to bear.

    Dear Paradoxy, I hear you, people on this forum hear you. You are not alone. And also, it would be important to have someone with whom to release and process your emotions. Please talk to a counselor, if you’ve got one at college.

    I want to cry. I want to release my pain but I have exams and other things to worry about. In a week, I will be traveling to my parents’ place again and I cannot show them my grief cause they will ask questions.

    Your urge to cry is understandable. You do need to cry it all out. But you’re right, it wouldn’t be good to show it in front of your parents, because you’d probably only get judgment and scolding from them. They would hurt you even more. So no, don’t show your pain to them. But show it to someone you can trust. Perhaps to the close friend of yours, whom you confided in about your fights with B?

    But the best would be to express it to a counselor. Because they are professionals, they know how to “hold you” and contain you as you express your pain.

    You don’t have to be alone in this, not this time. You were alone and helpless as a child, but now you can help yourself, by seeking people who can understand and who can help you. A counselor, primarily. And it’s good that you reached out here too, baring your soul, even though it wasn’t easy.

    I feel like God gave me this experience to teach me to be careful what I should wish for.

    Well, I believe you had this experience to learn and heal, as I said above. Please don’t use it to make false conclusions, neither about yourself nor about women in general. You can come out of this a new man, a healed man, who is ready for a healthy and a truly nurturing relationship. So use this opportunity for good: for growth and for healing.

    I am here, if you need to talk. I have more things to say, but I’ll stop for now. I hope to hear more from you, as you start a new phase.

    I know it’s hard, it’s excruciating to have your dreams crushed like that. But you know, what you had with her was a house built on sand. Now you need to build it on a solid rock… and as I said, that requires healing…

     

    #431649
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Yes Tee, I understand, there is nothing wrong about your harshness. I was just afraid to face reality.

    I don’t exactly understand what you are trying to say about the man in the photo issue. I don’t see where you could have assumed that she slept with the ex. I will reclarify everything from that event:

    After a week of dating, on a Friday, B told me that she still had feelings for ex and was having trouble deciding between me and her ex. She asked me what I would do so I told her that I would not date either person because it would be better to not date at all than have a relationship with someone while still holding feelings for the other. She agreed and we broke up, but we got back together cause she said she “chose me”. Several weeks later, I found a picture/video on her snap with her in a towel with a man removing her braids. I didn’t say anything at first but when I saw that she deleted the video, I confronted her and she said it was one of her exes, the one who she still had feelings for. She did not imply anything about sleeping with the man. I am the one saying that she COULD HAVE slept with him, and she could just be lying to me by not giving the details of what happened on that day, cause she was naked with only a towel wrapped around her. Everyone has hormones and if she was sexually stimulated enough by her ex, she COULD HAVE slept with him. Due to that fear of being lied to, I broke up with her, but took her back the next day.

    Couple more weeks later, I had the fight with her housemate, and I found out that he is one of her exes. His face looked familiar, so I asked B whether this guy was the same ex who was removing her braids. She told me it was not him. Every few weeks, I would ask her again if her housemate was the ex that she took the towel video in, and she would keep denying it, but his face was too familiar for me to just let go. Then this year January came and she confessed what happened last year January. And this prompted me to ask her again, whether the man in her video, was actually the ex that was living with her. She finally told the truth and admitted it was him.

    Then recently, I asked her what happened on that day and she told me that her female housemate was removing her braids but had to do something, and so the female housemate asked her brother (B’s ex) to finish removing the braids for her, and that is when she took the video. So her explanation from the time I found the video had no implication that she slept with the guy. So both stories align, so there is no evidence that she lied.

    I don’t remember recalling events more favorable to her. I am considering all the factors that are playing in the situation.

    My stupid self was too much in love to see reality then. I wish I could have gone back to the video and rewatched it before she deleted it.

    We do have a counselor here but that is the last thing I want right now. The only place where I get to rant is here. Besides, I have priorities. I find comfort in making music now as it is what I wanted to do more than med, and I find that good enough for now.

    I can’t even confide in the close friend of mine because everyone is human, I can’t just rant to him like that. He most likely wouldn’t want to support me in that manner. That is why I said I have no friends. He is literally all I got and I am pretty sure he is tired of my drama cause I tell him most of the time whenever B and I break up only to get back together.

    I am just disappointed that everyone was right about her. I believed she would be the exception to the stereotype everyone (not my parents) kept describing.

    I will probably come back here several months or years from now, ranting about why I am still single 😂😂. I hope to talk to you again. If you have more things to say, might as well finish it off in this thread because you never know when we might talk again. Thank you for all the advice and support you have given me.

    Paradoxy

    #431650
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Yes Tee, I understand, there is nothing wrong about your harshness. I was just afraid to face reality.

    I am glad you didn’t find it offensive or inconsiderate. But yes, unfortunately the truth can sometimes be harsh.

    Regarding the half-naked photo, I think your assumption that she could have slept with him is actually right:

    I confronted her and she said it was one of her exes, the one who she still had feelings for. She did not imply anything about sleeping with the man. I am the one saying that she COULD HAVE slept with him, and she could just be lying to me by not giving the details of what happened on that day, cause she was naked with only a towel wrapped around her. Everyone has hormones and if she was sexually stimulated enough by her ex, she COULD HAVE slept with him.

    She said he still had feelings for him, and you later realized that he had feelings for her too (because he was jealous of you). So what do you think happened when they reconciled and she told him she still loves him? I am pretty sure they didn’t remain platonic, and then, after they’d presumably abstained from sex, they made a photo with her naked, wrapped only in a towel.

    I mean, it’s pretty clear what happened. She actually told you that indirectly, but she also said it doesn’t count, because you were broken up in those few days. You said that’s her logic: even if you break up and reconcile every second week, sleeping with someone else in between wouldn’t be cheating, according to her. So it wasn’t “technically” cheating. But I am pretty sure it happened.

    But then, when she talked about it a year later, suddenly they didn’t sleep together…

    I don’t remember recalling events more favorable to her. I am considering all the factors that are playing in the situation.

    Okay, here it is. On April 8, you asked:

    Is it still considered cheating if she only slept with the man AFTER we broke up? Even though preparations were made WITHOUT her knowledge?

    However, in your very first post, on March 20, you said that the preparations were made with her knowledge. You said she knew where the money was coming from, but didn’t want to tell you:

    SHE KNEW BEFORE IT HAPPENED THAT THE MONEY WAS COMING FROM A MAN AND SHE DID NOT TELL ME WHEN SHE FOUND OUT.

    Also:

    The aunt told her about the married man when B and I started dating. So she was already in a healthy relationship when she learnt about the married man. And when the suggestion was made, she already told me that her aunt wanted her to do it and we had already discussed how wrong that was and it was obvious that I did not want her to do it and she had agreed.

    And:

    It so happened that her aunt had been giving her money for several months, which she had told me before but I told the fact that her aunt is giving her so much money is weird because no one gives money like that without expecting something in return.

    So she clearly knew about her aunt’s plan – she even told you about it. And when the money started coming, she knew where it is coming from. But she didn’t tell you, although you were suspicious about it.

    So that’s what you said on March 20, in your very first post. But on April 8, you said that the preparations were made without her knowledge. I mean, she knew about her aunt’s plan, she was receiving money beforehand….  there wasn’t much unknown to her.

    That’s why I thought that either she changed the story, or you started remembering it differently, to be more to her favor, because that was a part of self-deception. You wanted to believe her so badly, to make her seem innocent, and so perhaps you started remembering things differently?

    We do have a counselor here but that is the last thing I want right now. The only place where I get to rant is here. Besides, I have priorities. I find comfort in making music now as it is what I wanted to do more than med, and I find that good enough for now.

    Good to know you’re finding comfort in making music! Perhaps some day, soon enough, you’ll decide to see a counselor too.

    I can’t even confide in the close friend of mine because everyone is human, I can’t just rant to him like that. He most likely wouldn’t want to support me in that manner. That is why I said I have no friends. He is literally all I got and I am pretty sure he is tired of my drama cause I tell him most of the time whenever B and I break up only to get back together.

    I understand. He might not know what to say or how to support you properly. But you can tell him that you broke up with B (this time for good) and that you’re pretty devastated. But I guess you’ve already told him that?

    I am just disappointed that everyone was right about her.

    Yeah, sometimes it makes sense to pay attention, if everybody is telling you the same. But it’s hard, it often takes a big disappointment and disillusionment, before we can see the truth.

    I believed she would be the exception to the stereotype everyone (not my parents) kept describing.

    Yes, that’s hard – to believe you’ve managed to find a good woman, who doesn’t fit the stereotype, only to fall into one.

    Actually, I think the stereotype your parents (and everybody else) taught you consists of two parts: one part of the stereotype is that women do stupid things (women “overthink” and “don’t listen”, as you expressed). And the other part of the stereotype is that most modern women are gold-diggers and/or immoral.

    I think you didn’t completely adopt the second stereotype – you didn’t completely believe that all women are gold-diggers. You thought there are exceptions (and you thought B is one such exception). But you completely believed the first stereotype: that women tend to do stupid things, or behave stupidly. And that’s what made you believe that B’s behavior is stupidity, rather than manipulation. So believing in Stereotype No 1 blinded you to B’s true nature.

    That’s why I said that a part of your healing should be to get rid of those stereotypes, i.e. false beliefs about women.

    If you have more things to say, might as well finish it off in this thread because you never know when we might talk again.

    Yes, I wanted to write some more about how suppressing emotions leads to believing that women do stupid things, i.e. to Stereotype No 1. I’ll try to get to it soon.

    Thank you for all the advice and support you have given me.

    You are most welcome, Paradoxy!

     

    #431658
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    here are my thoughts on suppressing emotions…

    We’ve already talked about your father and how he believes that emotions are bad and should be suppressed. Since women aren’t able to disregard their emotions so easily, and are more prone to be lead by emotions, I think he believes it makes them less rational, less smart, and therefore, more stupid. He believes that “succumbing” to emotions causes them trouble.

    As we have established, your father doesn’t want to get in touch with his emotions, and so he accepts a worldview where emotions are bad and inferior, and where he, with his “pure logic”, is superior. Consequently, women too (as more prone to be governed by emotions) are inferior to men, who are (or should be) governed by “pure logic”.

    Unfortunately, you have experienced on your own skin how logic can be twisted. Because B was twisting logic: she was claiming that sleeping around isn’t cheating, as long as on the day of cheating she is officially not in a relationship with you. Even if she was with you a week before and a week after having “gone astray.”

    This logic was unfair to you, it was hurtful, but you couldn’t find a way to dispute it (“I don’t know how to argue with the technicality”), because indeed, she wasn’t with you on the days she slept with another man.

    You couldn’t dispute this “logic”, which is focused on “technicalities”, without taking into account the emotions: your emotions, to be more precise, and your pain. You were being treated unfairly, you were emotionally abused, but the logic said: “she hasn’t cheated”. But your heart knew the truth: that she hurt you. And that you were in pain, because of her.

    Your father used logic too, without considering your emotions. He could shut you down, using pure logic:
    <p style=”margin-left: .5in;”>my father is a pro at psychology, and he is so rigid that everyone, whether it be his own boss, his friends, or our own relatives, knows that he should not be messed with because he always speaks the truth and can put anyone in their place by using pure logic.</p>
    And it seems B too could shut you down too, with her twisted logic. She could disable you and you didn’t know how to fight against it.

    Because your father taught you not to fight against it – he taught you that emotions are not important. So you couldn’t just say “she is hurting me, I am leaving.” Because that’s not an “argument” for your father. Emotions are simply not an argument.

    So this is my take on how suppressing emotions can lead to a twisted, heartless logic. It’s not even logic, but a kind of reasoning that excludes the heart and emotions. It’s a false reasoning… technical reasoning, perhaps, which disregards the heart of the problem (pun intended).

     

    #431659
    Tee
    Participant

    Sorry, bad formatting. Here it is again:

    Dear Paradoxy,

    here are my thoughts on suppressing emotions…

    We’ve already talked about your father and how he believes that emotions are bad and should be suppressed. Since women aren’t able to disregard their emotions so easily, and are more prone to be lead by emotions, I think he believes it makes them less rational, less smart, and therefore, more stupid. He believes that “succumbing” to emotions causes them trouble.

    As we have established, your father doesn’t want to get in touch with his emotions, and so he accepts a worldview where emotions are bad and inferior, and where he, with his “pure logic”, is superior. Consequently, women too (as more prone to be governed by emotions) are inferior to men, who are (or should be) governed by “pure logic”.

    Unfortunately, you have experienced on your own skin how logic can be twisted. Because B was twisting logic: she was claiming that sleeping around isn’t cheating, as long as on the day of cheating she is officially not in a relationship with you. Even if she was with you a week before and a week after having “gone astray”.

    This logic was unfair to you, it was hurtful, but you couldn’t find a way to dispute it (“I don’t know how to argue with the technicality”), because indeed, she wasn’t with you on the days she slept with another man.

    You couldn’t dispute this “logic”, which is focused on “technicalities”, without taking into account the emotions: your emotions, to be more precise, and your pain. You were being treated unfairly, you were emotionally abused, but the logic said: “she hasn’t cheated”. But your heart knew the truth: that she hurt you. And that you were in pain, because of her.

    Your father used logic too, without considering your emotions. He could shut you down, using pure logic:

    my father is a pro at psychology, and he is so rigid that everyone, whether it be his own boss, his friends, or our own relatives, knows that he should not be messed with because he always speaks the truth and can put anyone in their place by using pure logic.

    And it seems B too could shut you down too, with her twisted logic. She could disable you and you didn’t know how to fight against it.

    Because your father taught you not to fight against it – he taught you that emotions are not important. So you couldn’t just say “she is hurting me, I am leaving.” Because that’s not an “argument” for your father. Emotions are simply not an argument.

    So this is my take on how suppressing emotions can lead to a twisted, heartless logic. It’s not even logic, but a kind of reasoning that excludes the heart and emotions. It’s a false reasoning… technical reasoning, perhaps, which disregards the heart of the problem (pun intended).

     

    #431676
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Unfortunately we cannot work with just assumptions, I don’t want to take that chance.

    “However, in your very first post, on March 20, you said that the preparations were made with her knowledge.” In a recent conversation she claimed that she found out where the money was coming from a day before the guy took her. But she was told that a man was interested in her, though she declined, her aunt still made preparations without her knowing and only informed her on the day the guy came to take her for a drive. She slept with the man the next day. So based on that, she knew her aunt’s plan, but she had apparently rejected that plan. But the plan was still in motion without her being aware of it until the guy came for her. When the money came, she assumed it was from her aunt, but she found out the real source when the guy came. That is what she told me when I asked about it again.

    Maybe stereotype number 1 did blind me. But a lot of guys told me it was normal, so I thought it was normal too.

    As for suppressing emotions….
    My father never said that women are inferior, he just said that women will be hard to deal with cause of their actions are based on emotions than logic, but they should still be treasured. Yes B is twisting logic. And It is unbearable. She sent me a message recently which I will share with you but it has me very very very pissed of at how she is twisting the truth and my ego refuses to let go of it. I still tried to fight against her logic but the anger that was induced by what she said was too hard for me to control. But I still somehow managed to control it cause of what Anita said lol. I will share what she said in the next post.

    Paradoxy

     

    #431677
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    This is what she said:

    I have dated you for almost 2 years.
    We started on rocky grounds, and I am fully aware of that. The fights and lies were a lot to deal with for both of us. We both had things about us that, if worked on at the time, would have put us in a better place right now.
    I know for a fact that some of the things I did were unacceptable, and I never should’ve done them. I never should have lied to you about Trevor being the one who was taking out my braids, and I never should’ve kept what happened in January from you.
    You had a right to know both pieces of information. And I am sorry I didn’t tell you. I know that we have had many mini-fights that could have been avoided if we really knew what we were doing and how to do it correctly.
    Though we have talked about this before and we have some clarity on the matter, I will still make mention of it.
    When we just started dating, everything felt new. You fell in love with me immediately, but I have loved you over time. I took the time to learn about you and love you as I went. I never had a fairytale belief in love; I knew that love would hurt and disappoint, so I never expected anything from you other than respect and faithfulness, and I believe that this is what contributed to my overlooking many small, hurtful things you did. Because I gave up on the idea of “my ideal love/fairytale love,” there is no perfect person, but there is someone perfect for everyone. But because I was your first relationship, you had expectations, and when those weren’t met, I was crucified but made excuses for it at the same time.
    Do not misunderstand; dealing with someone who has never been in an actual relationship before is a beautiful experience, but the emotional pressure you are put under is a lot. Because I know I am being held to a certain standard, I have always told you that I felt like you were pure, and I didn’t like that I had sex with you. I felt terrible because I knew that I had so many things to deal with that I could never tell you. Though I was your girlfriend, it felt like I was your protector, like I was supposed to deal with whatever was thrown at me by myself but show up for you in the best way possible as well, and that’s why I didn’t explain the January situation to you as it happened. It was 2.5 months into the relationship, and I never felt safe enough to tell you because I felt like I needed to be the one who was there for you. I didn’t feel protected by you, Godwin. You think I didn’t wish I could just run to you and lay everything at your feet? You think I didn’t want to just tell you everything and know that I was safe and secure? You don’t think I would love the feeling of me feeling like I don’t have to worry because my man got me?
    Godwin, you had broken up with me while I was going through the inhumane things I was experiencing, and then the things your parents said about me that had you upset and coming to me, which then turned into a fight later, made me feel like I really needed to handle things on my own.
    I did not feel safe telling you any of that. How can I go to you and tell you that after what your parents said? Your parents labeled me as a gold digger, a girl trying to secure her future by dating you; they said I was taking advantage of you; I would cheat on you, etc., all because I am black and from the west. I know you are going to say it’s because we don’t have the same race, morals, etc. Same difference.
    I had already never felt safe. I love you, and I felt like over time we would reach that level of security in our relationship, but I was not feeling it, and with the fight and what your parents said added on top of it, I decided to deal with it on my own.
    I do not blame you or anyone else for anything. I was a grown 21-year-old who was dumb in my ways. I take responsibility for my actions.
    I never intended on taking you back. I knew I loved you, but I planned to love you from afar. My aunt had suggested that I let you be with an Indian since your family wants you to be with one. She told me to leave you alone. My cousins told me to leave you alone, and my friends told me to let you go date an Indian.
    But I didn’t leave you alone; I spoke to you after, like, nothing happened. I was wrong for that. But it felt like you were the only good thing in my life at the time, and I just couldn’t let you go either, so we talked about the breakup and got back together.
    A few months passed, and we had mini-fights throughout, and you called me a bitch, etc.—a whole lot of name-calling. We addressed those and talked about them.
    Then one day, you were over here. We slept that night, and the morning we were laying in bed together, and I asked you what your type of woman was. You looked at me and said, Lightskin, straight, long hair, slim. Godwin,I am a black, afro-haired, slim woman. I was so broken. I could not believe it. I cried so much after you left. It scarred me. I started looking at everything differently, but we had many conversations regarding it, and you kept getting annoyed each time I brought it back up. You keep saying you explained it the last time, and it was just what your parents made you believe, but you should keep bringing it up. And you disliked me for that. You couldn’t understand that I was truly hurting from it. You just saw me as annoying.
    And each time I mentioned it, we fought because you didn’t want to hear it because you felt like you explained it and solved the issue. But that’s not how healing works. Just because I brought up something you did in the past doesn’t mean I misunderstood your original explanation of it or that I need you to repeat it again. Sometimes I just want you to listen keenly to how it made me feel and not tell me how I should feel since you explain it.
    Sigh Godwin I have always loved you, and I always will. You were a good man with some bad ways, and that’s fine.
    You lied to me about Prayanka, and you deleted the messages, but I had already seen them. But you were unaware, and you lied to me straight up about it. I was asking you about it for days, and you would look at me and lie. Then, when I told you, I read the conversation with you and her before you deleted it. You confessed that it happened and that you were sorry, and then you left me.
    You left me to find the truth. And I went back to you. I literally begged you to stay with me. Godwin, you packed up everything and were walking out the door. I wrestled with you to stay over something you did to me. And Pryanka is what you described as your type; she matches your own definition.
    You never posted about me. You never comment under my posts, but as we broke up, you went under a light-skinned married woman post and commented thirsty stuff. You don’t tell me I’m beautiful, but you will let a stranger on the internet know that. You don’t make me feel wanted. And you get so upset when I wear a bikini to the pool. To a private pool. And I posted the photo on my story. You may have been my boyfriend, but there were certain areas of me that needed you, and you ignored those. Do not misunderstand; I am not saying I posted my photos on my status because I wanted attention. I felt like I was cute, so I posted them. And at that time, you left me again.

    Back to what I was saying, we were together in bed another night, and I found out that you messaged other people on the app that I knew about. When I went through the messages, you were texting multiple women who were not even responding to you. Then you tell me they are like “sisters” to you. As I was scrolling, you started shouting, telling me to stop, but I looked at everything. Then I turned to you, and I started crying, because that was all I could do. Then I said, I thought you said you weren’t in a relationship before and you’ve never gotten nudes, and you said, “I forgot about those.”
    I cried again and again, and you decided to leave me, AGIAN!!! over something you did that I found out. Lol. And you know what I did? I stood like a woman with no self-worth and begged you not to leave. I told you it was okay, and I tried to tell myself all sorts of lies to have you around. I had lost all forms of self-respect.
    I cried so much and begged you to stay. Then you did. A few months later, I suggested we go on a picnic since it would be cute, a lot of people wouldn’t be around, and it would just be nice to spend time with you. You started an argument, then told me we are incompatible and we probably shouldn’t be together. Lol.
    I am crying as I write this because I cannot believe I went through this much. Anyway, I had a conversation with you again, and I found myself apologizing to you for wanting to go on a date with you. Lol. Sigh, oh Lord. And I accepted it. I took the blame for asking. Your reason was that I am an extrovert and you don’t like people, etc., and being in the open makes you anxious, etc. So I said okay. And I left it alone.
    The last time we had a fight, I asked you for 15 minutes to do me a favor, and you said you were busy, so I stated I would wait, and then you got upset, then I started saying you preferred your game over mine, then you left me and told me I crossed the line right there.
    I told you about January a year later because I felt like we were at a place where I could tell you what I went through and we could’ve handled it together. But you turned the entire thing around. And you got offended. You you I cheated on you; I never did. We were not together, and I hope you are not out here telling anyone I cheated on you because I never did.
    Godwin This message is not to start a fight with you or to blame you for anything. I know how you are; you will pick things from what I say to come and argue with me about, and I really don’t have the nerve for it.
    Before I met you, I was happy and glowing. While I was dating you, I became unrecognizable. I was sad; I was always trying to please you, wear what you wanted me to wear, say what you wanted me to say, and do what was pleasing in your eyes. I don’t know how I got to that point.
    Now you tell me every chance you get that you hate me with a passion. That I am stupid and annoying, etc., etc., I go on and on about the thing I went through and all.
    But I have said enough.
    I have no problem with you at all as a person. You had your good ways, and so did I, and we both had our bad ways.
    Maybe we were bad for each other, but like I said, we are probably good for someone else.
    Never date a woman outside your race again if you actually care about her mental health.
    I saw you showing interest in an Indian that ignored you, but you will find your person when the time is right. Don’t force it.
    I leave you in peace. I have no ill feelings toward you, and I will focus on bettering myself and loving myself more.
    Have a good life. Bye bye.
    I want you to read all of this and tell me your take on what she said, cause I want to read your understanding of this before I explain everything. It doesn’t look like this thread is going to end any time soon.

    Paradoxy

    #431680
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Unfortunately we cannot work with just assumptions, I don’t want to take that chance.

    It’s more than an assumption, but a very strong likelihood, if we take into consideration everything that happened and the type of person she is. It is actually common sense to assume that she slept with him, since they both had feelings for each other. And she’s not some prudent girl, but someone who believes that it’s okay to sleep with another man if she on that particular day is broken up with you.

    Moreover, she conveniently lived in the same house with him, perhaps not in the fist week of your relationship, when the half-naked photo was taken (because you said she had a female housemate at that time?), but soon enough. Because in December he was already living there, and was angry and jealous of you when you came to her place. So that was an arrangement she was hiding from you. I have no doubt in my mind that her intention was to deceive you.

    In a recent conversation she claimed that she found out where the money was coming from a day before the guy took her.

    As I said, in recent conversations she was twisting the truth, making herself appear more “innocent” and less responsible for what happened. She was re-touching the story and changing the facts.

    based on that, she knew her aunt’s plan, but she had apparently rejected that plan.

    Well, she hasn’t rejected the plan.

     

    Maybe stereotype number 1 did blind me. But a lot of guys told me it was normal, so I thought it was normal too.

    Those guys obviously grew up with the same stereotype. In what part of the world do you live, if I may ask?

    My father never said that women are inferior, he just said that women will be hard to deal with cause of their actions are based on emotions than logic, but they should still be treasured.

    Well, if emotions are inferior and women base their decisions on emotions, it does make women’s decision making inferior, doesn’t it? And so, women are inferior too, at least when it comes to decision making about important things in life. The conclusion: women shouldn’t be trusted to make important decisions, right?

    but they should still be treasured

    How should they be treasured? If they fulfill their role of wife, housewife and mother? Cleaning, cooking, taking care of their husband’s needs, and… not having a say in important life decisions?

    I will comment on B’s message a bit later. But what I notice is that she is presenting herself as the victim and minimizing her own bad behavior: her lying and deception regarding her ex, as well as her prostitution, as if those were minor things.

    I never expected anything from you other than respect and faithfulness,

    When a promiscuous girl like her tells you she wanted faithfulness…. and she started cheating from practically Day 1. It’s called hypocrisy. She is not seeing the log in her own eye, and then blaming you for your own.

    In fact, your own “log” (the false belief about women) is what made you fall for her excuses, but it also made you look down on her and treat her with contempt (telling her she was stupid, a whore, etc). Your own log upheld this toxic relationship, and it did hurt her as well.

    But her log is huge, and she isn’t willing to take responsibility for it, but is blaming you.

     

    #431684
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    She apologized for saying that it was not my business to know about what happened in January but she could still be manipulating the truth. I live in the Caribbean country.

    “Well, if emotions are inferior and women base their decisions on emotions, it does make women’s decision making inferior, doesn’t it? “ Yes it would make the women’s decision making SKILLS appear inferior in general cause emotions cause you to make rash decisions a lot. But that doesn’t mean women’s opinion should be invalidated. My father taught me to still consider it because there are times when the women is actually right but it is my responsibility to make sure if the woman’s decision is logically viable. There are certain things that women are good at and certain things that men are good at. Please don’t misunderstand, I am not trying to be disrespectful to women.

    Treasured does not mean they should take care of their husband’s needs. Treasured is more like saying the women should be considered a prize. Someone who should be protected at all costs. Someone who should be loved and cared for and understood and valued.

    B keeps saying that she is not trying to justify her actions. She says that she is only explaining how she felt. I understand my mistakes and I want to correct them. But reading her messages make me feel like maybe she is right, maybe I am the problem overall. Maybe women are just better off without me.

    Paradoxy

    #431690
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    She apologized for saying that it was not my business to know about what happened in January but she could still be manipulating the truth.

    It was also very recently that she was still claiming that you didn’t need to know about it, because you were not together in that week:

    We are already broken up, but we still kept in contact since she owes me a lot of stuff but she cut out the last part of me that cared for her when she told me that what happened to her in January was none of my business because it happened right after our break up and that she shouldn’t have even told me because we were not dating when it happened

    So I wouldn’t trust any of her apologies. Because it seems that’s her modus operandi: first she tries to find an excuse, then she blames you, and then if you’re still insisting that what she did was wrong, only then does she apologize. Her goal is take the responsibility off of herself, at all costs. No matter what she does, she isn’t to blame. Everybody else is, including you, but not her.

    In her letter, her 3rd sentence is already a lie and twisting of truth:

    The fights and lies were a lot to deal with for both of us.

    She doesn’t say “I lied to you”, but she makes it seem as if you both lied to each other. Which isn’t true because she was lying and hiding the truth about her ex. You did nothing of the kind. She was lying to you, but she makes it seem as if you both lied.

    because I was your first relationship, you had expectations, and when those weren’t met, I was crucified but made excuses for it at the same time.

    She blames you for having expectations, and says that you had those expectations only because it was your first relationship. As if having expectations is wrong. Well, your expectation that your partner shouldn’t lie, hide the truth from you, or deceive you are totally legitimate expectations. But she feels “crucified” for not having met those basic expectations.

    She was shamelessly lying to you, and when found out, she feels “crucified”. That’s victim blaming. She blames you for calling you out on her dishonesty and deceitfulness. She presents herself as the victim, as the “crucified one”. Whereas you – the real victim of her lying – she views as the perpetrator. She is not only twisting the truth with this one, but turning it upside down!

    Because I know I am being held to a certain standard, I have always told you that I felt like you were pure, and I didn’t like that I had sex with you.

    As if the biggest problem is that she had sex with you. A much bigger problem is that she had sex with other people, while being in and out of the relationship with you.

    I felt terrible because I knew that I had so many things to deal with that I could never tell you.

    Well,  she did tell you (very early in your relationship) about her aunt’s plan for prostitution.

    Though I was your girlfriend, it felt like I was your protector,

    Protecting you by hiding crucial information from you, such as that her ex (whom she still had feelings for) is her housemate? How “thoughtful” of her…

    You think I didn’t wish I could just run to you and lay everything at your feet? You think I didn’t want to just tell you everything and know that I was safe and secure? You don’t think I would love the feeling of me feeling like I don’t have to worry because my man got me?

    If you were “her man”, why was she secretly living with her ex?

    Godwin, you had broken up with me while I was going through the inhumane things I was experiencing, and then the things your parents said about me that had you upset and coming to me, which then turned into a fight later, made me feel like I really needed to handle things on my own. I did not feel safe telling you any of that.

    Your parents labeled me as a gold digger, a girl trying to secure her future by dating you; they said I was taking advantage of you; I would cheat on you, etc., all because I am black and from the west.

    I had already never felt safe. I love you, and I felt like over time we would reach that level of security in our relationship, but I was not feeling it, and with the fight and what your parents said added on top of it, I decided to deal with it on my own.

    Let’s see: she was hurt by your insensitive question (whether she was a gold-digger) and by your parents’ (alleged) racist comments, where they warned you that she would cheat on you and that she is a gold-digger, only because of her skin color? (is this true btw?).

    She felt they labelled her unjustly. She presumably felt alone and abandoned by everyone, and then…. she decided to deal with it on her own? So her way of dealing with an offer for prostitution is to accept it?

    And then to blame you (and your parents) for “forcing” her into it?

    See how insidious it is? She is again playing the victim: this time she is the victim of your “racist” parents (and of you, who is upholding their beliefs), and she had “no choice” but to accept the offer for prostitution. But why? That’s a very twisted logic. Actually I think I know why she accepted it, but it has nothing to do with you or your parents offending her. You are not to blame. But she is still blaming you.

    Even though in the very next sentence she says she is not blaming you:

    I do not blame you or anyone else for anything. I was a grown 21-year-old who was dumb in my ways. I take responsibility for my actions.

    Yeah right. The whole previous paragraph was about blaming you and your parents for her prostitution.

     

    Okay, I’ll stop here because it’s hard to read all those lies and manipulations. I might continue analyzing her letter later.

    B keeps saying that she is not trying to justify her actions. She says that she is only explaining how she felt.

    But you see that she IS trying to justify her actions and blame you in process, don’t you?

    But reading her messages make me feel like maybe she is right, maybe I am the problem overall. Maybe women are just better off without me.

    No, she is manipulating you because she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her actions, even if she claims she does. She is still blaming you, while claiming she is not. Pretty insidious!

    I understand my mistakes and I want to correct them.

    Good to hear that. But you shouldn’t take advice from her on what to change, because she is a very manipulative and abusive person. Please don’t believe her words, don’t believe her judgment of you.

     

    #431711
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I’d like to comment some more on her letter, because it is quite telling…

    So here are some things she said about you:

    you had expectations, and when those weren’t met, I was crucified but made excuses for it at the same time.

    I never felt safe enough to tell you because I felt like I needed to be the one who was there for you. I didn’t feel protected by you

    you had broken up with me while I was going through the inhumane things I was experiencing [btw, did she tell you before that fight for Christmas that her aunt is pushing her to prostitute herself (if those are the “inhumane things” that she is referring to)?],

    and then the things your parents said about me… your parents labeled me as a gold digger, a girl trying to secure her future by dating you; they said I was taking advantage of you; I would cheat on you, etc., all because I am black and from the west.

    So around Christmas 2022, before she prostituted herself, she saw you as someone:

    • with whom she felt crucified for not meeting his expectations,
    • with whom she never felt safe enough,
    • who couldn’t protect her,
    • whose parents are racists and will never accept her, and
    • who is under the influence of his parents and will not marry someone they don’t approve of (“I told her why my parents would not approve of her and the consequence of us dating would be that I would have to choose my parents over her when it is time for marriage if my parents reject her“).

    And yet, merely a week after the prostitution, she came back to you, wanting to reconcile because: “it felt like you were the only good thing in my life at the time.”

    So she described you as a judgmental, unsupportive, bigoted guy, who is most probably not going to marry her. And yet, she wanted to return to you, because “you are the only good thing in her life”.

    And then, as the time went by, she says you were “destroying” her more and more, and that she became unrecognizable:

    Before I met you, I was happy and glowing. While I was dating you, I became unrecognizable. Sad. Always trying to please you, wear what you wanted me to wear, say what you wanted me to say, and do what was pleasing in your eyes.

    But still, she always wanted to go back to you. After each break up she would tell you she misses you… even though, according to her, you were abusing her.

    I was thinking how is that possible. One explanation could be that she developed a trauma bond with you (trauma bond is when the victim is trying to get love from her abuser, and therefore cannot leave the abuser). However, that could have been an explanation for her behavior – if she truly became a different person and “unrecognizable” due to being in the relationship with you. For example, if she became isolated from her friends, depressed, sitting at home all the time, wearing only the clothes that you approve of, not posting anything on social media, etc.

    However, based on everything you said, it seems to me that she didn’t become a different person: she actually kept behaving the way she liked, not the way you told her to behave. You did try to control her and change her, which was a mistake (because controlling someone like that and trying to force them to be something they are not is abusive. But that’s a different topic).

    So you wanted to try to fit her into your vision of a perfect wife, but she never “gave in”. She might have apologized, but those were fake apologies, because she continued to do stuff that you didn’t want her to do. So in that sense, I believe she never “succumbed” to your pressure, and never became a different person.

    That’s why I think that she wasn’t really your victim, as she is portraying herself, but in fact stayed with you for a reason. Not because she was trauma bonded and wanted your validation, but for a very pragmatic reason: because you were helping her financially.

    In the beginning I thought she might really need your validation (and that’s what she herself claimed). But after the financial aspect of your relationship became clear, I realized that she most probably doesn’t need validation, but money.

    Anyway, that’s my current understanding. I believe she wasn’t your victim, but chose to stay with you for her own purposes. It doesn’t mean you treated her well, even though you believed you were a loving boyfriend. We can talk more about your own mistakes.

    But in any case, I believe she wasn’t a naive, innocent girl whom you harmed, but rather, she seems like a calculating woman, who stayed with you for her own interests.

     

    #431735
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “She doesn’t say “I lied to you”, but she makes it seem as if you both lied to each other. “ She is referring to my high school crush incident that I shared with you which unfortunately looks like I lied, from her perspective.

    “She blames you for having expectations, and says that you had those expectations only because it was your first relationship.” Exactly, that is one of the things that pissed me off because she only had one job and that was to be a loyal respectful girlfriend and she couldn’t even achieve the basic rules of a relationship so it is definitely not about my expectations being too high.

    “Because I know I am being held to a certain standard, I have always told you that I felt like you were pure, and I didn’t like that I had sex with you.” She is saying that she didn’t like that she was the one to take my virginity because she believed it meant I wouldn’t know anything about being a boyfriend and sex and etc.

    “If you were “her man”, why was she secretly living with her ex?” I am not sure if you can say that she was secretly living with her ex. She did not hide the guy, she just hid the relationship between the guy and herself.

    “Let’s see: she was hurt by your insensitive question (whether she was a gold-digger) and by your parents’ (alleged) racist comments, where they warned you that she would cheat on you and that she is a gold-digger, only because of her skin color? (is this true btw?).” Not true, but it is what she understood, no matter how many times I tried to explain myself, she was too emotional to take the time to calm down and listen to what I had to say. It is the same stereotype of the modern world that my parents had which I shared with you already. My dad even called today telling me about a teenage girl next door trying to seduce a guy to sleep with her before her mom came home 🤦‍♂️. I tried to explain to B that what my parents said was not specifically about her because they don’t even know her, it was just their general opinion/warnings based on the experiences they have had. My method of informing her was flawed, which is why she easily misunderstood my intentions.

    “She felt they labelled her unjustly. She presumably felt alone and abandoned by everyone, and then…. she decided to deal with it on her own? So her way of dealing with an offer for prostitution is to accept it?” Essentially, yes. But I think by dealing with it on her own, she is referring to just breaking up and staying away from me, but her aunt took advantage of her mental and emotional state and she did nothing to stop her.

    “But you see that she IS trying to justify her actions and blame you in process, don’t you?” Yes I do see it. But it is extremely difficult for me to knock some sense into her, as she does not have the patience to listen and arguing with her is a waste of my energy.

    “No, she is manipulating you because she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her actions, even if she claims she does. She is still blaming you, while claiming she is not. Pretty insidious!” I am perfectly aware of that, but for some reason it still feels like I played a role in the way things are now and that guilt is hurting me.

    I don’t think the financial aspect is still valid since she has a stable job right now that pays better than her previous jobs. She is not in need of money as of right now, so does that mean she still wanted my validation?

    Why does it seem like she is not even aware though? Like even in the long message she sent, she appears to not even be aware that she is the one acting like a victim and blaming me. I don’t want to be the cause of her pain but I don’t see any other option but to leave.

    Paradoxy

    #431741
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    She is not in need of money as of right now, so does that mean she still wanted my validation?

    I don’t think so, since she has already moved onto someone else:

    I just found out that she already started flirting with a guy who she knew in high school and he expressed that he has some feelings for her already. And she told him that she is healing from a relationship that ended FEW months ago.

    And she is already twisting the truth to the new guy, telling him you broke up a few months ago, which is not true, because you broke up beginning of April, right? (and you stayed broken up only because you refused to reconcile, right?)

    So she is already feeding the new guy a re-touched version of the story, according to which she is “healing”, presenting herself as the victim of her ex’s (your) abuse.

    And besides, she made it clear in this letter that she doesn’t want anything from you, she wished you a “good life”. So she knows she can’t get anything from you anymore. However, she doesn’t want to come out of this fight as a loser, as a defeated one. She wants to kick you one last time (They were not all slaps, they were different types of hits, like an elbow to the face when she opens the door or something, and the next time she kicks me in the shin while walking).

    I see this letter as her “parting gift”, in which she repeats once again all of her “grievances” against you, and blames you for her own actions. A letter where she presents herself as the victim, and you as her abuser. And she managed to achieve her goal, because you are again doubting yourself, thinking that what if it’s all your fault:

    But reading her messages make me feel like maybe she is right, maybe I am the problem overall.

    I don’t want to be the cause of her pain

    She has been falsely accusing you all this time, making you believe that you are the cause of her pain. That you are harming her, when in fact, she was harming you. The pain she caused you with her lies and deceptions (and false accusations) is much bigger than what you caused her by trumpeting your parents’ false beliefs about women.

    So if you are looking at the bigger picture – which you should, rather than focusing on details and technicalities – she is not your victim, but you are her victim. And she is trying to turn that around: turn the truth upside down, and present herself as the victim.

    I don’t want to be the cause of her pain but I don’t see any other option but to leave.

    I hope that you’re not entertaining the thought of reconciling again? I thought that chapter is closed, and frankly, I wouldn’t like to keep convincing you that you should stay away from her, and why.

    So I do hope you can start moving on, i.e. start healing and learning from your mistakes.

     

    #431755
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I’d like to comment on something else she said in her letter:

    You don’t tell me I’m beautiful, but you will let a stranger on the internet know that. You don’t make me feel wanted. … You may have been my boyfriend, but there were certain areas of me that needed you, and you ignored those.

    It seems like she didn’t feel wanted by you, while she has the need to feel wanted. So she fulfilled that need by being in the company of men who desired her, who lusted after her. Right there she admitted what I told you earlier in my analysis.

    So she wanted to be desired by you. But you said you didn’t want to have sex with her after you found out that she prostituted herself. Around that same time you also found out that the guy in the half-naked photo was her ex, who was living as her housemate.

    After she dropped those two “bombshell” news on you, no wonder you didn’t want to have sex with her anymore:

    But ever since finding out what happened, the pain and sorrow never left me. The inner turmoil I felt was eating me up from the inside. I no longer wanted to have sex with her. I feel disgusted. I hated myself. I hated the pain. I wish I could just die. Though we continued to date, nothing was ever normal again despite trying my best to.

    Your reaction was normal. How can you appreciate and be intimate with a woman who sold herself for money, and who was lying to you about her involvement with her ex. You cannot. But she was blaming you for that – as if you suddenly and for no reason at all stopped desiring her. She saw herself as the victim, completely disregarding the causes of you turning cold towards her.

    I just wanted to mention this, because I think it showcases how she was blaming you for your reactions, without acknowledging her own actions – her own bad behavior, which led you to react the way you did.

    But it is extremely difficult for me to knock some sense into her, as she does not have the patience to listen and arguing with her is a waste of my energy.

    A person who doesn’t want to admit their own mistakes and be accountable for their actions behaves like she does. You can’t reach them. And they turn everything around: they blame you for being upset about their bad behavior. That’s what she has been doing to you.

    Why does it seem like she is not even aware though? Like even in the long message she sent, she appears to not even be aware that she is the one acting like a victim and blaming me.

    She doesn’t want to be aware. There are people who always blame others and never take responsibility for their own actions. She seems to be one of them.

    There is no point in arguing with such people. The only way is to let them go.

    In some languages, there is a saying “The smarter one gives up first” (as in, gives up fighting, gives up arguing). That’s what you should do with her – give up trying to make her understand. Give up arguing. Let her go.

    And refrain from replying to her letter, because it will be futile, and you’ll risk getting entangled in another round of pointless, exhausting arguments (that are aimed at blaming you and portraying you as the bad guy).

     

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