Dear Livia: I will reply in the morning. For now, I’d say: your feelings are important, your pain is real.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

I will reply further in the morning, but for now: no need for you to break up with him or confront him tonight. You can just have a nice evening if it suits you. I want you to be okay, whatever it takes.

I wouldn’t say anything to him about gaslighting. How about asking him to elaborate on what he meant when he told you “are you bothered??? I’m not” 10 minutes after arguing, as in an open ended question, not accusing him of anything (you are more likely to get some of the truth this way, if not all).Try to remember his answer and let me know what it is..?

I know that you are emotionally and physically very attached to him, so this is not the time to initiate a detachment/ break from him. I hope to read from you in the morning, about how it went, or before. I will be back to the computer in a couple of hours.

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

No reason to apologize to me.. you have done me no wrong!

“I feel like he was not always this way and I fear I turned him into..“- his father and mother turned him into what he is during his Formative Years aka his childhood, when he was formed. He met you after his formative years. You do not have this kind of power over him.

“confused about whether or not he is intentionally being controlling or gaslighting and if we just have different views that lead to this dynamic“- (1)  if he is controlling and gaslighting unintentionally but consistently, he is still controlling and gaslighting. (2) when my mother hit me (I was a child, later a teenager), her view was that I made her hit me. (“Look what you did to me“, she’d exclaim). I was confused and believed her. Did the two of us have .. two different but legitimate views about that dynamic…?

I am sorry that I cannot help further at this point. Maybe you should not meet him for a while, maybe you should have quality psychotherapy before meeting him again..? (I will soon be away from the computer).

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

Take your time.. I was afraid that the last post was too much for you and that I will never read from you again! I am fine but tired, so I’ll probably reply to your yet to be submitted post thoroughly tomorrow, followed by a short reply today.

anita

Dear Priyan:

How are you? I hope to read from you again.

* To Livia:

You shared that back in Oct 2022, you met a guy for the first time on a plane flying on vacation to Miami. You didn’t see him again in-person during that vacation. Being that the two live very far from each other, you chatted via calls, texts and WhatsApp for a whole year. You met him in-person for the 2nd time a year later (Oct 2023) on another vacation, and the two of you had sex for the first time. During your vacation, he called you every day, dropped you off at a mall, took you out to dinner and showed you around town. When your vacation was over, you texted him that you arrived home safely and you continued to chat.

He is a divorced man, a father of a teenage girl and he seems to care about being a good father to his daughter (“he did not want to slip up as a father“). He has never made a commitment to you and neither have you made a commitment to him (“we never made any commitments to each other“). It seems to me that you wanted him to make a commitment to you because after he told you that he needs to not slip up as a father, you told him: “I understand & I can wait“, wait for a commitment from him, as I understand it.

Less than 2 months ago, he blocked you. You shared:  “I’m still hurting and still trying to understand why…  I know I am blocked. I tried to call him but he declined. I am confused, I feel foolish and hurt and I need clarity…. I felt safe in his arms. He was great. Please help me understand what went wrong here“-

– I am guessing that what happened is that you wanted a commitment from him, a commitment that he wasn’t ready for. You perhaps pressured him to commit to you (perhaps by “throwing a tantrum” or two..?), and he reacted by blocking you. Is that what happened?

I am sorry, Livia, that you are going through a heartbreak and I hope that you will feel better soon!

anita

Dear Laelithia:

You are very welcome. I will be able to reply further Monday morning. If you can add before I return what it has been about B’s behavior to cause your therapist to think of him as Narcissistic, it may help me with your question. Or anything you can add about B’s behavior over time.

anita

Dear Laelithia:

* I am about to submit this post and I feel that it will be difficult for you to read, Please read if you are calm and prepared, take a break if it gets to be too much, or choose to not continue to read. My goal is to be helpful to you.

You are very welcome and thank you for your kindness and grace.

In your February 21, 2023 post,  you shared that you’ve been very busy working, taking care of your lovely baby daughter, and working on your relationship with B, your baby’s father, barely having time to sleep. Sometime in the year before (2022), B finally secured a job but earned commission only, not a dependable income, and therefore you continued to overwork to the detriment of your health. You were having panic attacks, and reached out to your doctor who prescribed sertraline (an SSRI).

Sometime around April 2022, B changed: “B seemed to have given up on any attempt to improve our relationship and began treating me poorly. Gone was the person that was at least always polite and kind to me. Now, not only was he financially draining me, but he also was indifferent and sometimes cruel“.

You referred to B as “someone so irresponsible, reckless and immature despite being almost 10 years my senior“. Your therapist at the time “labelled B a narcissist based on his actions“, and strongly recommended that you end the relationship with him. You and B agreed to take some time apart: “I visited my parents… and B promised to finally organize and clean the house he had promised to do when we moved in about a year ago. Lo and behold, he was out with his friends at the bars and drinking rather than doing this, so I snapped. I was not very nice to him on the phone, and the next thing I knew, he had blocked me and I received a message from his sister-in-law that they (his parents included) had helped him move out“.

Your main concern at the time: “I can’t seem to get over the idea of sharing parenting and not seeing my daughter every single day. That side that worries so much about that is motivating me to try to mend things with B, perhaps finally try counselling together… Another side of me feels like a man in his 40s is unlikely to change. I just don’t know… I find myself more lost than ever…  I still hold a tiny bit of hope that maybe some time apart and some maturing and perspective on his part will maybe allow for us to be a real family“.

Nine months and nine days later, yesterday (Nov 30), you shared that following the above happenings back in February, you tried to reconcile with B following this relaliztion: “I had been too hard on him, and didn’t appreciate what he brought to the table (helping with my daughter, keeping the home tidy, and helping some with bills)“.

A few months later, in the summer of this year, you had “a complete break, and considered seriously ending my life“. The relationship with B ended permanently in the summer. Since the separation in the summer, B has not been involved in your daughter’s life, save for a few visits and minimal financial contributions.

(I will be adding the boldface feature selectively to the following quote from yesterday, and to quotes I will bring back from the past): “I still find myself incredibly saddened by the loss of the nuclear family I wanted so badly, as well as the shame I feel of not being able to have provided that for my daughter, and as a therapist myself, how that looks externally. I wanted so badly to have that picture perfect life, but I feel I could not manage it. It plagues me still in wondering if I had been nicer to B, more understanding and nurturing if this still would have been the case… I hope I will feel differently in the future, that I will feel it was right for my daughter and I, or at the very least it wasn’t my fault“.

The first day we communicated, Laelithia, was on May 9, 2017. On May 19, 2017, you shared in regard to your parents when you were growing up: “I longed so deeply to be seen by them, to be heard, to hear loving words of affirmation. However.. I don’t think they had the ability to do so for me… I tried so hard to get her (your mother’s) attention, I would clean the house as a child during the nights to surprise her, I would work so hard at school, I would try to engage with her. But she was emotionally aloof”.

On January 11, 2019, you wrote: “I felt Wrong as a child, a problem, a burden. I tried very hard in my younger years to rectify this with my mother by helping her with chores, caring for my siblings, anything I could do to make her happy. But after several years of realizing this wasn’t working, I became an extremely angry and sad teenager, and I suppose in many ways, emotionally I still am that angry and sad girl“.

On January 14, 2019, you wrote about your mother: “She would often shake her head or sigh at me, while simultaneously being so cheerful and encouraging to my younger sister. She often identified being similar to my younger sister when she was younger, and told me I was more like the girls that bullied her in school. To this day I’m not sure why she told me that, as I have never been a bully“.

I don’t have the date for the following quote (I took it from one of my replies to you), in regard to your mother: “I remember feeling like I was a trouble maker to her, always needing more of her attention and getting upset with her over things and feeling hurt that she didn’t console me after an argument“.

On January 14, 2019, you wrote about your mother: “She would often shake her head or sigh at me, while simultaneously being so cheerful and encouraging to my younger sister. She often identified being similar to my younger sister when she was younger, and told me I was more like the girls that bullied her in school. To this day I’m not sure why she told me that, as I have never been a bully“.

In your relationships with men, like in your relationship with your mother as a child or a teenager, you longed so deeply to be seen by the man, to be heard… to get the man’s attention.. try to engage with the man… to rectify this with the man by helping him. But after…  this wasn’t working, you became an extremely angry and sad woman, and you became a trouble maker to the man, always needing more of his attention and getting upset with him over things and feeling hurt that he didn’t console me after an argument, having become a bully within the relationship”.

This is how it looked in the relationships:

Jan 22, 2019: “When it comes to this new partner, my regret is tied completely to horrible behaviours I engaged in knowing better. Specifically, venting to him about my past, lamenting about it, and not respecting his wishes to stop talking about it with him“.

Jan 23, 2019: “I have talked more with my partner, and I am devastated by what he shared with me. He is so angry and hurt over me constantly talking about my past with him (especially exes and what was done to me), not giving him enough space or time to do the things he wants in his life, and for saying hurtful things when I felt he was rejecting or abandoning me. He said he wants space, that he wants to be on his own”.

May 19, 2019: “I met a man online… we did have a few silly arguments (usually after having too much to drink). Anyway, when I got back home, I noticed his contact was far less than before. I pointed this out, and before I knew it, my perfect man was saying he wasn’t sure if he was ready for a relationship after all. This after he had been the one pushing for things to move so quickly”.

August 3, 2020: “I met someone.. he was kind, assertive, generous… He told me how he had ‘done the math’ and how we had a great connection and our future goals aligned… I, unfortunately, uninvited him from meeting my brother and became short and cold to him. As if that wasn’t bad enough, I proceeded to have too much to drink that night and ended up sending some really odd texts that I now regret. He then told me he had a date scheduled the next day, and I really lost it… I felt bad about this in the morning, so I said ‘sorry.. When I asked if he was still planning on getting my bike today, he said ‘I’m sorry not after our last interactions.. I was hoping for some space…He said he was worried about a few comments I made and was bothered  by my mixed signals”.

February 21 & Dec 1, 2023: “B promised to finally organize and clean the house he had promised to do when we moved in about a year ago. Lo and behold, he was out with his friends at the bars and drinking rather than doing this, so I snapped. I was not very nice to him on the phone, and the next thing I knew, he had blocked me and I received a message from his sister-in-law that they (his parents included) had helped him move out… I had been too hard on him, and didn’t appreciate what he brought to the table (helping with my daughter, keeping the home tidy, and helping some with bills)”.

You have been a victim to a cold, unloving mother and you tried hard to get her positive attention. Seems to me that you’ve been repeating (as often is the case) your relationship with your mother in the context of your romantic relationships, including in the one with B. Not that any of the men was perfect or close to perfect, but it is your part in the relationships that follows a pattern: quickly getting emotionally attached and placing the man on a pedestal, and then.. trying hard to be heard and adequately attended to (to rectify your childhood experience with your mother), and motivated by hurt, you get aggressive and bully them.

Does this read true to you?

anita

Re-submitting in effort to try and get rid of the excess print:

Dear Seaturtle:

* I just finished the post.. warning: I am shocked myself by my current understanding, so take your time reading, maybe read in parts, taking breaks, maybe read after taking a hot, relaxing bath.

“To N/ I don’t want to leave my bed,/ it’s warm under the covers/ and it’s cold out there“- N= familiar, feels safe; After N= unfamiliar, feels risky/ may be dangerous.

“Plus, there’s a man called/ Nathanael who melts into/ my skin & like the ocean/ it binds like one“- physical and emotional attachment, a force that binds/ connects you to him.

“His hair is smooth and soothing/ to touch, as is his back,/ warm to the bone./ In bed we play games, throw/ pillows and suck face,/ we even get to talking/ and gaze into space./ The way he sees the stars/ is a melody new to my ears,/ I think ‘yea’ I could listen/ to this song for years. * * */ But help me Universe I feel/ conflicted,/ is it possible the love here is/ constricted?/ I can’t tell what I feel but/ I do not like it,/ ‘it will all be ok I am going/ to fight it.’“- so far, in your poem, you didn’t indicate, not even suggest, any reason for you to feel constricted by N, all that you shared about him is gloriously positive, just like it’s been on your thread. This is why, for the longest time, I thought that your conflict, the constriction you mentioned here, in your poem, had nothing to do with N and everything to do with F whom, I thought, you inaccurately projected into N.

“Day after day coming home/ from battle/ Nathanael tells me what/ I worry about/ does not matter./ I ask him please come to/ therapy, or let’s take a small/ break? He says not, suck it up it’s/ only an ache. ‘ache’/ Dear ache, why do you/ bother? is it all because/ of my father?/ Oh yes! perhaps I can/ solve all of it myself!/ take responsibility for my part./ But wait…in the mean time,/ this growth, this battle…/ he doesn’t even start?/ I am fighting alone in/ the world of connection./ Confused and alone while/ he’s right by my side.“- first, I didn’t know that you suggested couple therapy to N and he refused? Second: The Question: is your conflict, constriction, ache in regard to N: is it all about F.. or does N have something to do with it? In other words, using your verb (which I like, in this context): is N constricting Seaturtle?

“We argue about nothing,/ the c-word, the cash./ But not 10 minutes later/ when I ask,/ ‘how do you feel?’ (as we had just fought)/ All he says is ‘are you bothered??? I’m not?’ I don’t understand this/ lack of awareness“- this right here is very important part in shining light into the relationship that I wasn’t adequately aware of: his response indicates that he negates the reality of what just happened: there WAS a FIGHT.  Either he is like Teflon, and fighting slides off him like oil off Teflon (which was not the case in the c-word incident, the bad driver did not slide off N), OR N is CONTROLLING your mind, or trying to control your brain: your brain is telling you correctly that there was a fight and therefore, the fight left some distress behind it. N tells your brain: Brain, you are Wrong, there was no fight.

“’I have to be the constant/  communication?’/  *enter unfairness*/ ‘I’ll be there all day.’/ ‘no 12’/ ‘actually 2’/ Calls me ‘see you at 3:30’/ Enters the door at 4./ As he sits on the couch like/ nothing is wrong,“- Nothing is wrong.. not because nothing is wrong, but because N SAYS (or suggests by his silence that) nothing is wrong.

“I feel exhausted, for I am sick of/ my own; communication song./ I sit and I wonder, do I bring/ this up?/ Or will he be annoyed.. there’s/ no way to win.“- something IS wrong but N says nothing is wrong, something must be wrong with Seaturtle’s perception then.. her brain must not perceive/ process information correctly.

dictionary. com: “Gaslighting is the act of distorting the truth in a way that’s intended to make another person accept the deception due to doubting their own memory, reality, or sanity. It’s considered a form of psychological manipulation or emotional abuse… The term gaslighting is often applied in the context of emotionally abusive relationships, such as romantic relationships or among family members… When the deception of the person who is engaging in gaslighting is questioned, they often react by dismissing the accusation as a delusion, an emotional reaction, or an overreaction—thus conditioning the person to internalize those assessments”.

Wikipedia: “Gaslighting, also called coercive control.. In contemporary language, gaslighting is a colloquialism, describing the subjective experience of having one’s reality repeatedly questioned by another… Gaslighting involves two parties; the ‘gaslighter’, who persistently puts forth a false narrative in order to manipulate, and the ‘gaslighted’, who struggles to maintain their individual autonomy. Gaslighting is typically effective only when there is an unequal power dynamic or when the gaslighted has shown respect to the gaslighter. Gaslighting is different from genuine relationship disagreement, which is both common and important in relationships. Gaslighting is distinct in that: * one partner is consistently listening and considering the other partner’s perspective; * one partner is consistently negating the other’s perception, insisting that they are wrong, or telling them that their emotional reaction is irrational or dysfunctional.

“Gaslighting typically occurs over a long duration and not on a one-off basis. Over time, the listening partner may exhibit symptoms often associated with anxiety disorders, depression, or low self-esteem. Gaslighting is distinct from genuine relationship conflict in that one party manipulates the perceptions of the other…Motivations:  Gaslighting is a way to control the moment, stop conflict, ease anxiety, and feel in control. However, it often deflects responsibility and tears down the other person… Learned behavior: Gaslighting is a learned trait. A gaslighter is a student of social learning. They witness it, experience it themselves, or stumble upon it, and see that it works… Habilitation: It can be difficult to extricate oneself from a gaslighting power dynamic… Those being gaslighted must learn that they do not need others to validate their reality, and they need to gain self-reliance and confidence in defining their own reality”.

Psychology today: “… ‘Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.’ —Paramahansa Yogananda… Here are seven stages through which a pathological gaslighter dominates a victim, excerpted from my book How to Successfully Handle Gaslightgers & Stop Psyhological Bullying. Depending on the situation, there may be variations in the order and the number of gaslighting stages involved: 1. Lie and Exaggerate. The gaslighter creates a negative narrative about the gaslightee (‘There’s something wrong and inadequate about you‘)… 2. Repetition. Like psychological warfare, the falsehoods are repeated constantly in order to stay on the offensive, control the conversation, and dominate the relationship. 3. Escalate When Challenged. When called on their lies, the gaslighter escalates the dispute by doubling and tripling down on their attacks, refuting substantive evidence with denial, blame, and more false claims (misdirection), sowing doubt and confusion…. 4. Wear Out the Victim. By staying on the offensive, the gaslighter eventually wears down their victim, who becomes discouraged, resigned, pessimistic, fearful, debilitated, and self-doubting. The victim begins to question her or his own perception, identity, and reality. 5. Form Codependent Relationships… the gaslighter elicits constant insecurity and anxiety in the gaslightee, thereby pulling the gaslightee by the strings. The gaslighter has the power to grant acceptance, approval, respect, safety, and security. The gaslighter also has the power (and often threatens to) take them away. A codependent relationship is formed based on fear, vulnerability, and marginalization.

“6. Give False Hope. As a manipulative tactic, the gaslighter will occasionally treat the victim with mildness, moderation, and even superficial kindness or remorse, to give the gaslightee false hope. In these circumstances, the victim might think: ‘Maybe he’s really not THAT bad,’ ‘Maybe things are going to get better,’ or ‘Let’s give it a chance.‘ But beware! The temporary mildness is often a calculated maneuver intended to instill complacency and have the victim’s guard down before the next act of gaslighting begins. With this tactic, the gaslighter also further reinforces a codependent relationship.

“7. Dominate and Control. At its extreme, the ultimate objective of a pathological gaslighter is to control, dominate, and take advantage of another individual”.

Back to your poem (which I didn’t read yet): “I love this bed, don’t get/ me wrong/ It’s comforting and beautiful,/ what could go wrong?/ Do I worry about nothing?“- the gaslightee doubting reality.

“No I do not“- no you do not.. except when you do.

“This next one won’t be so easy/ to proceed,/ I’m also assuming it won’t be easy/ to read./ I know you so hate to be/ controlled“- his fear of being controlled motivates him to control.

“.. If you can’t rely on one half/ the other must control it./ At some point you started to/ see me as weaker“- gaslighting, a form of coercive control where one is strong and the other is weak

“You think my strengths a/ weakness but you’re wrong“- he needs you to think that you are weak. If you believe that you are strong, in his mind, it means that he is weak. So he needs you to feel weak, mentally weak. It reminds me of the quote above: “Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.“

“I see, I feel, I touch, I/ smell./ to certain things I am/ repelled./ You think it’s fear, but it is/ not./ I can sense when an area is/ rot./ As much as I love this bed/ we are in,/ it is starting to smell deep/ within.“- it smells of.. gaslighting to me.

“You claim it is not about/ the money/ But you see, it is, it controls/ you, honey./ I do not mean to sound/ condescending“- he is the one condescending.

“But admit it, you think I owe/ you something“- here is one area where N and F share, both controlling you, or trying to control you by the money spent on you.

“I want to be believed/ in, seen as strong…  It is now at the point/ where I value myself more/ than you do me. which is/ why this must end/ Because I am stronger,/ just me… Who knows what’s to come/ but I’ve cherished you SO./ This end will be painful please/ take care of yourself“- I don’t think that you can be seen as strong, not by him and not by yourself, if you continue a relationship with him. I think that his gaslighting of you is likely to get worse if you marry him.

You wrote yesterday (I am adding the boldface feature here): “I do want to end things. I just doubt my ability to express why to him… I feel he will have excuses that sound valid in that moment, or he will blame me“- in other words, you are afraid that he will gaslight you.

“for example if I say he has been controlling I am almost certain he would tell me that I gave him that control. He has spoke about this before about how we have opportunities to take control and give it and he makes sure not to give people control of him. He will tell me I gave him control and as my mental state stands currently, I will believe him.”- reads like a.. textbook example of gaslighting, doesn’t it? Your mental state is that of the gaslightee and therefore you will believe the gaslighter…

“I do not want to waste time with someone controlling. If there was a button to break up right now and move on I would press it, but it’s more complicated because there needs to be a conversation and he will say all the right things“- he will say all his gaslighting things..

“Or maybe I did give him the control? by letting him pay for things, I just feel like I am blinded a bit. I feel like I have something blurring my ability to see that he is controlling”- that something blurring your ability to see him as he is .. that something is gaslighting, isn’t it?

“because I love so many things about him. He says that if one day I was able to financially care for him he would be so happy, not saying that I needed to but he has expressed that would be his dream… So if I was able to be that for him then our relationship would be good? We have had so many good moments, and I am struggling to see the controlling as overpowering those”-

– # 6 above: “As a manipulative tactic, the gaslighter will occasionally treat the victim with mildness, moderation, and even superficial kindness or remorse, to give the gaslightee false hop.”- hope that IF you financially care for him in the future, then the relationship would be good: false hope.

Wow, Seaturtle! The gaslighting possibility- which I believe to be true to your situation with N- did not occur to me before today. I figured recently, after reading about the two examples, that he was controlling, using people skills to manipulate you, his apologies and other expressions being appearances/ style, not substance.. so there has been some evolution of my understanding most recently, leading to this.

anita