Dear Seaturtle:

* I just finished the post.. warning: I am shocked myself by my current understanding, so take your time reading, maybe read in parts, taking breaks, maybe read after taking a hot, relaxing bath.

“To N/ I don’t want to leave my bed,/ it’s warm under the covers/ and it’s cold out there“- N= familiar, feels safe; After N= unfamiliar, feels risky/ may be dangerous.

“Plus, there’s a man called/ Nathanael who melts into/ my skin & like the ocean/ it binds like one“- physical and emotional attachment, a force that binds/ connects you to him.

“His hair is smooth and soothing/ to touch, as is his back,/ warm to the bone./ In bed we play games, throw/ pillows and suck face,/ we even get to talking/ and gaze into space./ The way he sees the stars/ is a melody new to my ears,/ I think ‘yea’ I could listen/ to this song for years. * * */ But help me Universe I feel/ conflicted,/ is it possible the love here is/ constricted?/ I can’t tell what I feel but/ I do not like it,/ ‘it will all be ok I am going/ to fight it.’“- so far, in your poem, you didn’t indicate, not even suggest, any reason for you to feel constricted by N, all that you shared about him is gloriously positive, just like it’s been on your thread. This is why, for the longest time, I thought that your conflict, the constriction you mentioned here, in your poem, had nothing to do with N and everything to do with F whom, I thought, you inaccurately projected into N.

“Day after day coming home/ from battle/ Nathanael tells me what/ I worry about/ does not matter./ I ask him please come to/ therapy, or let’s take a small/ break? He says not, suck it up it’s/ only an ache. ‘ache’/ Dear ache, why do you/ bother? is it all because/ of my father?/ Oh yes! perhaps I can/ solve all of it myself!/ take responsibility for my part./ But wait…in the mean time,/ this growth, this battle…/ he doesn’t even start?/ I am fighting alone in/ the world of connection./ Confused and alone while/ he’s right by my side.“- first, I didn’t know that you suggested couple therapy to N and he refused? Second: The Question: is your conflict, constriction, ache in regard to N: is it all about F.. or does N have something to do with it? In other words, using your verb (which I like, in this context): is N constricting Seaturtle?

“We argue about nothing,/ the c-word, the cash./ But not 10 minutes later/ when I ask,/ ‘how do you feel?’ (as we had just fought)/ All he says is ‘are you bothered??? I’m not?’ I don’t understand this/ lack of awareness“- this right here is very important part in shining light into the relationship that I wasn’t adequately aware of: his response indicates that he negates the reality of what just happened: there WAS a FIGHT.  Either he is like Teflon, and fighting slides off him like oil off Teflon (which was not the case in the c-word incident, the bad driver did not slide off N), OR N is CONTROLLING your mind, or trying to control your brain: your brain is telling you correctly that there was a fight and therefore, the fight left some distress behind it. N tells your brain: Brain, you are Wrong, there was no fight.

“’I have to be the constant/  communication?’/  *enter unfairness*/ ‘I’ll be there all day.’/ ‘no 12’/ ‘actually 2’/ Calls me ‘see you at 3:30’/ Enters the door at 4./ As he sits on the couch like/ nothing is wrong,“- Nothing is wrong.. not because nothing is wrong, but because N SAYS (or suggests by his silence that) nothing is wrong.

“I feel exhausted, for I am sick of/ my own; communication song./ I sit and I wonder, do I bring/ this up?/ Or will he be annoyed.. there’s/ no way to win.“- something IS wrong but N says nothing is wrong, something must be wrong with Seaturtle’s perception then.. her brain must not perceive/ process information correctly.

dictionary. com: “Gaslighting is the act of distorting the truth in a way that’s intended to make another person accept the deception due to doubting their own memory, reality, or sanity. It’s considered a form of psychological manipulation or emotional abuse… The term gaslighting is often applied in the context of emotionally abusive relationships, such as romantic relationships or among family members… When the deception of the person who is engaging in gaslighting is questioned, they often react by dismissing the accusation as a delusion, an emotional reaction, or an overreaction—thus conditioning the person to internalize those assessments”.

Wikipedia: “Gaslighting, also called coercive control.. In contemporary language, gaslighting is a colloquialism, describing the subjective experience of having one’s reality repeatedly questioned by another... Gaslighting involves two parties; the ‘gaslighter’, who persistently puts forth a false narrative in order to manipulate, and the ‘gaslighted’, who struggles to maintain their individual autonomy. Gaslighting is typically effective only when there is an unequal power dynamic or when the gaslighted has shown respect to the gaslighter. <sup id=”cite_ref-Vox_18-0″ class=”reference”></sup>Gaslighting is different from genuine relationship disagreement, which is both common and important in relationships. Gaslighting is distinct in that: * one partner is consistently listening and considering the other partner’s perspective; * one partner is consistently negating the other’s perception, insisting that they are wrong, or telling them that their emotional reaction is irrational or dysfunctional.

“Gaslighting typically occurs over a long duration and not on a one-off basis. <sup id=”cite_ref-Haupt_2022_4-2″ class=”reference”></sup>Over time, the listening partner may exhibit symptoms often associated with anxiety disorders, depression, or low self-esteem. Gaslighting is distinct from genuine relationship conflict in that one party manipulates the perceptions of the other…<sup id=”cite_ref-Vox_18-1″ class=”reference”></sup>Motivations:  Gaslighting is a way to control the moment, stop conflict, ease anxiety, and feel in control. However, it often deflects responsibility and tears down the other person… Learned behavior: <sup id=”cite_ref-JacobsonGottman1998_26-0″ class=”reference”></sup>Gaslighting is a learned trait. A gaslighter is a student of social learning. They witness it, experience it themselves, or stumble upon it, and see that it works… Habilitation: <sup id=”cite_ref-Stout2006_28-0″ class=”reference”></sup>It can be difficult to extricate oneself from a gaslighting power dynamic… Those being gaslighted must learn that they do not need others to validate their reality, and they need to gain self-reliance and confidence in defining their own reality”.<sup id=”cite_ref-Vox_18-5″ class=”reference”></sup>

Psychology today: “… ‘Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.’ —Paramahansa Yogananda… Here are seven stages through which a pathological gaslighter dominates a victim, excerpted from my book How to Successfully Handle Gaslightgers & Stop Psyhological Bullying. Depending on the situation, there may be variations in the order and the number of gaslighting stages involved: 1. Lie and Exaggerate. The gaslighter creates a negative narrative about the gaslightee (‘There’s something wrong and inadequate about you‘)… 2. Repetition. Like psychological warfare, the falsehoods are repeated constantly in order to stay on the offensive, control the conversation, and dominate the relationship. 3. Escalate When Challenged. When called on their lies, the gaslighter escalates the dispute by doubling and tripling down on their attacks, refuting substantive evidence with denial, blame, and more false claims (misdirection), sowing doubt and confusion…. 4. Wear Out the Victim. By staying on the offensive, the gaslighter eventually wears down their victim, who becomes discouraged, resigned, pessimistic, fearful, debilitated, and self-doubting. The victim begins to question her or his own perception, identity, and reality. 5. Form Codependent Relationships… the gaslighter elicits constant insecurity and anxiety in the gaslightee, thereby pulling the gaslightee by the strings. The gaslighter has the power to grant acceptance, approval, respect, safety, and security. The gaslighter also has the power (and often threatens to) take them away. A codependent relationship is formed based on fear, vulnerability, and marginalization.

“6. Give False Hope. As a manipulative tactic, the gaslighter will occasionally treat the victim with mildness, moderation, and even superficial kindness or remorse, to give the gaslightee false hope. In these circumstances, the victim might think: ‘Maybe he’s really not THAT bad,’ ‘Maybe things are going to get better,’ or ‘Let’s give it a chance.‘ But beware! The temporary mildness is often a calculated maneuver intended to instill complacency and have the victim’s guard down before the next act of gaslighting begins. With this tactic, the gaslighter also further reinforces a codependent relationship.

“7. Dominate and Control. At its extreme, the ultimate objective of a pathological gaslighter is to control, dominate, and take advantage of another individual”.

Back to your poem (which I didn’t read yet): “I love this bed, don’t get/ me wrong/ It’s comforting and beautiful,/ what could go wrong?/ Do I worry about nothing?“- the gaslightee doubting reality.

“No I do not“- no you do not.. except when you do.

“This next one won’t be so easy/ to proceed,/ I’m also assuming it won’t be easy/ to read./ I know you so hate to be/ controlled“- his fear of being controlled motivates him to control.

“.. If you can’t rely on one half/ the other must control it./ At some point you started to/ see me as weaker“- gaslighting, a form of coercive control where one is strong and the other is weak

“You think my strengths a/ weakness but you’re wrong“- he needs you to think that you are weak. If you believe that you are strong, in his mind, it means that he is weak. So he needs you to feel weak, mentally weak. It reminds me of the quote above: “Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.“

“I see, I feel, I touch, I/ smell./ to certain things I am/ repelled./ You think it’s fear, but it is/ not./ I can sense when an area is/ rot./ As much as I love this bed/ we are in,/ it is starting to smell deep/ within.“- it smells of.. gaslighting to me.

“You claim it is not about/ the money/ But you see, it is, it controls/ you, honey./ I do not mean to sound/ condescending“- he is the one condescending.

“But admit it, you think I owe/ you something“- here is one area where N and F share, both controlling you, or trying to control you by the money spent on you.

“I want to be believed/ in, seen as strong…  It is now at the point/ where I value myself more/ than you do me. which is/ why this must end/ Because I am stronger,/ just me… Who knows what’s to come/ but I’ve cherished you SO./ This end will be painful please/ take care of yourself“- I don’t think that you can be seen as strong, not by him and not by yourself, if you continue a relationship with him. I think that his gaslighting of you is likely to get worse if you marry him.

You wrote yesterday (I am adding the boldface feature here): “I do want to end things. I just doubt my ability to express why to him… I feel he will have excuses that sound valid in that moment, or he will blame me“- in other words, you are afraid that he will gaslight you.

“for example if I say he has been controlling I am almost certain he would tell me that I gave him that control. He has spoke about this before about how we have opportunities to take control and give it and he makes sure not to give people control of him. He will tell me I gave him control and as my mental state stands currently, I will believe him.”- reads like a.. textbook example of gaslighting, doesn’t it? Your mental state is that of the gaslightee and therefore you will believe the gaslighter…

“I do not want to waste time with someone controlling. If there was a button to break up right now and move on I would press it, but it’s more complicated because there needs to be a conversation and he will say all the right things“- he will say all his gaslighting things..

“Or maybe I did give him the control? by letting him pay for things, I just feel like I am blinded a bit. I feel like I have something blurring my ability to see that he is controlling”- that something blurring your ability to see him as he is .. that something is gaslighting, isn’t it?

“because I love so many things about him. He says that if one day I was able to financially care for him he would be so happy, not saying that I needed to but he has expressed that would be his dream… So if I was able to be that for him then our relationship would be good? We have had so many good moments, and I am struggling to see the controlling as overpowering those”-

– # 6 above: “As a manipulative tactic, the gaslighter will occasionally treat the victim with mildness, moderation, and even superficial kindness or remorse, to give the gaslightee false hop.”- hope that IF you financially care for him in the future, then the relationship would be good: false hope.

Wow, Seaturtle! The gaslighting possibility- which I believe to be true to your situation with N- did not occur to me before today. I figured recently, after reading about the two examples, that he was controlling, using people skills to manipulate you, his apologies and other expressions being appearances/ style, not substance.. so there has been some evolution of my understanding most recently, leading to this.

anita

Dear Laelithia:

I am so very pleased to rad back from you. I will be back to you in the morning when I am more focused. Good night!

anita

Dear Seaturtle;

It’s been almost a year that your mind hasn’t rested much from the question: to break up with him or to not? (for the relationship to be or not to be?). No need to rush now. I think that what you need most at this time is to distract yourself from this question and to relax, best you can.

Also, I can’t read minds and there is no way for me to know what he meant when he said X, Y and Z, especially not having the context around each time. It is too complicated. I can bring up possibilities, as I have done.. but few certainties.

I wonder: did you ever tell him that you were considering breaking up with him, and if you did, how did he respond?

Here is an idea in regard not knowing with certainty what you need to know: can you put together 10 questions for him, hand him those questions asking him to answer them (typing his answers)?

(I will be away and back to the computer in a few hours).

anita

Dear Seaturtle: I am in the middle of putting a post together for another member, and will be back to you after I am done with it.

anita

How are you Caroline?

anita

Dear Seaturtle:

In response to your Nov 28, 12:41 pm post: I wrote to you:” Or.. N appears to understand and has better social skills than your friend’s boyfriend“. and you told me about your friend’s boyfriend being “very immature and yes, bad people skills”, yelled at her, shoved her out of the house. One evening, your friend’s boyfriend was playing basketball in a bad area where there are frequent arrests and violence. He texted her at 7:30 pm that he was wrapping up the game and was on his way home, She called you terrified at 9 pm because he was still not home, gunshots were reported in that area, and there was no response to the texts she sent him. He did make it home at 10 pm, saying he got caught up with another basketball game.

“She was absolutely furious and crying, she told me he had no idea why she would be upset, he said ‘I was just hanging out with my friends why are you freaking out.‘”.

When you told this story to your boyfriend N, he said that when he was growing up, no one cared about his whereabouts and he knew that if he was stranded, no one was coming to help him: “you learn that in life no one will save you“.

“He went on to say ‘In our relationship I had to make the decision to allow you to care about me, and tell you where I was and when I would be home. My initial reaction was the same as [my friend’s bf], I would shudder at you caring about me and my whereabouts, but I learned you just cared about me and so I still to this day work on telling you against my instincts.‘ I found this all very interesting but psychologically made sense to me. What do you think about this?”-

– You caring about his safety made him shudder, his word. To shudder= to tremble convulsively as a result of fear or revulsion/ to violently shake in horror or extreme disgust (online dictionary).

It is against his instincts (against anyone’s instincts) to unnecessarily be filled with fear or revulsion/ disgust. It is against N’s instincts to tell you about his whereabouts (where he was and when he’d be home) because it makes him feel either fear or disgust, or both.

This is one explanation (in addition to him being a workaholic) why he was late to the first date with you and why he didn’t show up at all to your third date (“he was late for the first date… our third date he..  stood me up” (7/29). And why he has been repeatedly late since (“Last weekend he was an hour late to my house and him being late is a pattern in our relationship“, Oct 11). I figure that in his mind he is resisting being controlled by you when he is late or a no-show.

By being late, he keeps you.. in your place, so to speak, a place of depending on him to show up- or not- and when. He doesn’t shove you, like your friend’s boyfriend did to her, an overt act of asserting one’s power over another. N.. does it covertly by making you wait, never knowing when he will show up.

N’s motivation to assert power over you was very evident at the grocery store recently, when he harassed you about having more cash in your wallet that he figured you should have. That was an overt behavior of asserting unfair power/ control over you. This is why that and the other example were game changers for me.

Back to your yesterday’s post: “Speaking of N, knowing how to act as a good person, and when he is tired is his more real self is very concerning, and I want to make sure I don’t accuse him of this (in my head, not to him) and it not be true. Because accusing someone of having these sociopathic tendencies is very serious to me. My dad has many sociopathic tendencies and I definitely want to avoid this in a future partner. But perhaps it is the reason I have had such doubts about N, yet it is hard to be sure of this”-

-(1) “It is hard to be sure of this“- N’s controlling behaviors are usually covert. This is why it’s difficult to be sure. The example in the grocery was an exception. I suppose he was too tired to operate covertly at that time. Plus, N is a complex person: sometimes he considers what you say.. maybe he does. I don’t know and can’t know what goes on in his brain at all times. It took the two OVERT examples of late to lead me to understand a part of him that he usually keeps in a Covert State.

(2) “Speaking of N, knowing how to act as a good person, and when he is tired is his more real self is very concerning, and I want to make sure I don’t accuse him of.. having these sociopathic tendencies is very serious to me“-

– “sociopathic tendencies” sounds like an extreme term to a common behavior of trying to appear like a good person in public, so to be liked and to promote one’s interests. It takes effort. This is why it’s tiring. Then in private, when living with someone 24/7, let’s say, a person is too tired to execute an appearance 24/7.

I just got your most recent post of a minute ago:

“for responses that you bolded parts yourself I am going to leave them as is so I don’t change the message, let me know if it is as all confusing!”- that’s fine.

“wow, it is scary for me to imagine that his honest state is authentically angry. How do I know this for sure? There are times I want to bring up a topic, regarding something in our relationship, like him being late or a lack of something in the relationship, and I have to walk on egg shells to speak about it cause it will upset him“-

– (1) I wrote the above about him being late as a way to control you BEFORE you submitted the latest post. Isn’t it amazing. So, yes, being late is his way to keep you anxious (waiting for him) and therefore, under his control. Another way he controls you is to express being upset when you bring up a topic he doesn’t want you to bring up. A person walking on egg shells is a controlled person.

(2) “How do I know this for sure?“- you know for sure by his overt behaviors: the recent example in the grocery store and the one while driving are overt. There are people who never say the words and otherwise display the overt behaviors that he exhibited on those two occasions.

“I don’t feel like it was always this way though. When we lived together and I told him something that bothered me, he felt sad that he hurt me…I have seen genuine authentic sadness in his eyes… He teared up as well and was wiping away tears as he saw me so sad. Is this not a sign of authenticity?“- it can be a sign that he is qualified to play Shakespeare on the stage with you. it is only recently that I criticized someone in real-life, someone who was repeatedly rude. He was sitting in front of me. He started sort of crying and saying that he wants to be a good person. He looked very upset. I think it was an act. And I was wondering the morning after, remembering the scene, how he appeared so genuine. I figured that in his act, he brought into his awareness some real, genuine sadness that he felt before.. so he really felt sad, but not about my criticism.

His motivation was to make me feel sorry for him because my opinion about him matters to him in regard to a certain self-interest he has (I don’t want to elaborate on it here).

“So the question is, is he being polite because he genuinely understood our conversation that words do matter? Or is he pretending he understands“- you are asking this about a man you’ve been in a relationship since Aug 2021, a man you doubted as the right man for you since Dec 2022, soon to be a whole year of doubting him and thinking about breaking up with him. For a long time- because of the gloriously positives you shared about him vs the .. minor-sounding dissatisfactions you expressed about him- I thought it was all your projection of F into N. After your two recent examples of his overt major misbehaviors on his part, I changed my mind. (I say major as in the difference between the way you described him before and his behaviors in these two examples is MAJOR)

“How can I be sure about this? I don’t want to incorrectly accuse him here.“- it is impossible for anyone to read his mind and know if at any one moment he means what he says. Rely on the overt examples and other overt examples you never shared about, if they exist.

“When we first met I was making a lot more money. I worked at Verizon and did very well in sales… N met this version of Seaturtle. I paid 50/50 for a lot of things we did…  we went to a Hawaiian BBQ place for dinner…  about 2 months before officially moving out. It was like a ‘house-cleaning’ I had with my dad. He told me he felt taken advantage of, he said I lived in a fantasy world… He did pay for the majority of things now… a day or two later…  he said it wasn’t about money, oh yea he said ‘I am not asking you to pay rent, it is not about money..”- it WAS about money.

F’s motivation during those “house cleaning” sessions was to control you through guilt. I don’t know if N wants to control you through guilt about spending money on you. What is clear to me is that N really dislikes or hates spending money on you for some time, by now.

“It is just hard for me to imagine N being someone who is more invested in style. I guess what do you mean by style?“- by style I mean appearances, trying to create a favorable impression of oneself in others with no care for the connection or lack of connection between the appearance/  impression and authenticity.

“N is off-put by people trying to tell him what he wants to hear. He is actually constantly alert of others not being authentic with him….hm“- it is common for people to get annoyed by other people doing what they are doing.

“For example at my cast party dinner after opening night, we sat at a table with several cast members. I saw him staring at this girl.. He responded ‘I was trying to tell if she was acting a certain way to impress us.’“- she was doing what he is in the habit of doing. He doesn’t like to see/ be confronted by his own motivation and behavior, is my guess.

“I responded to him ‘Well she is only 16 and the rest of the cast is older I think she was trying to fit in and be her mature self,'”- N is invested in appearing mature.. Same motivation as hers.

“he nodded in agreement. If someone can spot someone not being 100% authentic, does that make then authentic or not?“- if one gets angry at another’s behavior, a behavior that is not rude or abusive or destructive in any way, it’s likely because they see their own behavior in that other person and feel shame about it, or some kind of other distress.

“I am feeling appreciative of your support right now Anita”- you are very welcome.

As to your question: “Can you help me come up with a post-breakup plan? Or is this something between Seaturtle and hatch only?“- no, I can help you, Seaturtle.

It’s been almost a whole year, if I count 8 months back from the time of your first thread, July 29, 2023: “Please help me, my mind hasn’t rested in 8 months“, that you’ve been considering breaking up with him. I don’t think that you are currently ready to break up with him, are you?

Whether you break up with him or not is .. or should be totally up to you and not at all up to me. So, I will help you best I can in putting your mind to rest following a year of unrest in whatever way it takes: breaking up with him or… (don’t know the option, I mean, if there is an option)…?

anita

Dear noname:

My goodness!!! This is you!!! I m obviously excited to see you back here but I am also sad to read that your cousin was murdered back in March 2022,  a month or two after you posted here last.

Your last post here was on January 29, 2022, exactly 1 year and 10 months ago, being that today is Nov 29, 2023. On that day, you shared: “This week has been a rollercoaster“. Today, you wrote: “The past couple years have been a rollercoaster“.

A year and 10 months ago, you were about to meet your old therapist/ mentor for tea and guidance. You were still a beginning therapist about to take your licensure exam in a couple of weeks later. You felt bitter about some of your clients making way more money than you did as their therapist, regretting that you didn’t choose a lucrative career instead of psychotherapy. You were still struggling back then, and needed support with feeling “worthy and lovable“. You wondered on that day “if cutting back from alcohol, porn, and weed.. has anything to do with the intensity of the emotions” you were experiencing.

Today, you shared the very sad news that your cousin was murdered while trying to help his friend. He is on your mind and heart every day, and you miss him.

You are currently in an okay relationship, “overall a positive experience no matter what the outcome may turn out to be” and still “continually stressed about finances“.

You shared that the housing market is at an all time high. “The majority of my stress has to do with not having secure housing, and not being able to afford psychological help despite doing it for others. My day to day existence is overwhelming and unenjoyable but I have no one to blame but myself for being a therapist instead of an engineer or businessman. Oh well. I hope I can hold on, the lack of emotional and financial support is drowning me. Such is life.“-

– Don’t blame yourself, noname. Please don’t. Empathy for yourself (not blaming yourself) will give you much needed relief from much of your stress. It will tune down the volume of the overwhelm factor. Directing empathy toward yourself is the emotional support that you need and have needed for so long.

You ARE worthy and lovable and you deserve to rest in this truth.

“Anita how have you been?“- there are challenges in my life too and I am doing okay. As far as mental health, I am better than ever in my life, and a big part of it is directing empathy toward myself. Any time that I notice that I feel badly about something, if I figure that it is invalid guilt that I am feeling, or an exaggerated guilt considering a wrong I committed, or guilt that is not useful anymore and all it does is to make me suffer.. I am able to stop indulging in that guilt and to care enough for myself to .. wish myself to not suffer unnecessarily.

Back to you: the housing market being at an all-time high is a sort of necessary suffering, being that you have no control over it. But blaming yourself for choosing a (notable, valuable) career is an unnecessary suffering.

I am so glad to read back from you after all this time: you made my day, noname. Thank you!

anita

Dear Dave:

I know about your scapular winging and a whole lot more because we talked about it when we communicated for years in your previous accounts. So yes, I know a lot about you. More than anything, I know about your anxiety. But I can’t stop your anxiety: I don’t have that power. All that I can tell you in my efforts to help you, I already did.. over and over again.  This is why I keep recommending that you see a mental health specialist.

Again, I wish you well. There is nothing else that I can do but wish you well and,, recommend, once again, that you see a mental health professional so to treat your long-term anxiety.

anita