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PeterParticipant
Sorry I don’t follow your logic.
In the past your skill level was crap, today your skill level has improved, but because it was crap in the past today’s experience of skill no longer matters?
When I was a baby was was crap at walking, pretty much crap at everything needed to take care of myself. When I first started dancing I was crap after years of practice my skill level has improved. Should I stop walking or enjoying dancing because when I started I was crap?
What ever has gotten you down isn’t about surfing skill, past or present. When you were struggling to learn a new skill did something else happen to you that you are now projecting onto you surfing. The surfing now triggering a unconscious memory of the a past situation that you now how to deal with
PeterParticipantWorry about being whiney is whining about being whiney like worrying about worrying which can only be self defeating.
Ahh panic attacks. I get it. When were under the influence of a panic attack rational thought becomes difficult and we tend to be in an animal reactive, fight of flight state, vice a responsive one.
If you want to move forward your going to have to do some work on understanding how your panic attacks are triggered. The good news is that your posts indicate that you know what the problem is and how to fix it.
You note that when you start to worry about the future, “what will happen to me if..”, “what will I do with my life if…” if, if, if… Its this worry that seems to trigger your panic attacks and even suicidal thoughts.
You stated that when you quit and stop taking class you calm down… for a while… but then start the process over again as you worry about where you will end up clinging to the idea of needing to have career path defined, certain and nailed down, which eventually leaves you feeling suffocated which triggers the panic attack and restarts the circle
See your ahead of the game. You know what triggers your panic attacks what calms you.
You tend to live in an imagined future that is overly influenced by your fears of “if”. Your afraid of the idea of a career path while clinging to the idea of needing to have a career path. You can see how you created a repeating pattern of behaviour which has very little to do with what courses you might be taking or career path you selected. The immediate problem isn’t knowing what path to choose but the idea of having chosen on of having a path.
You might find it helpful to find a physiologist or some other third party expert (not family or friends) to dig into your resistance to the idea of a career path (committing) and why at the same time you cling to the idea of needing/having one (clinging is never helpful)
They may also help you with this tendency to project yourself into an imagined future…
You never waste an opportunity to worry today about something you might not get to worry about in the future. Most of the crap we worry about happening never happens. And if it does, we deal with it, that just what we do. So, you can see the absurdity of living in the future and that what might really be happening is a growing addiction to worry and anxiety. Yes, the body can get used to and even crave the chemicals released by worry and anxiety.
You also mention a fear of physical death however I also suspect an unconscious fear of physiological dying. The reality is that, physiologically the self is always in a cycle of birth, death and re-birth. So, its likely that these experiences of suicidal thinking are not about a wish to physically dying but the unconscious Self expressing a need for a physiological dying so that a rebirth is possible. You are stuck in physiological loop that is keeping attributes within the Self from dying so that they might be reborn leading to your becoming. Attributes, ways of thinking, ways of doing, feeling that need to “die” – let go of – so that you grow.
PeterParticipantSorry to hear about your experiences
You Mentioned “But now, I feel nothing but doubt.”
For many the concept of doubt and uncertainty are things to fear and avoid. For some the fear of doubt and uncertainty is really about the fear of not having control.
Such people will often criticize them selves whenever the feel this way and only make the issue behind such experiences worse.
There is nothing wrong with being uncertain and having doubts and I believe such states of being actually lead the way to learning and experiencing new things. As for control, life laughs when we make plans and try to control it. Give yourself a break and let it go and embrace your doubts.
With regards to career Most People will change careers a few times over their life time. In this fast-changing world, its important to be flexible, adapt and overcome. After 40 years in the work force I can tell you that most people would have never guessed ending up in the jobs they have.
Yet everything you lean at school, even the failures, when looked at creatively, can lead to many different unexpected opportunities.
Collage should be a time of exploration so don’t be so hard on yourself. Don’t fear doubt but use it to open yourself up to the experience. Do your work, pay attention to what sparks with you and see were that might lead.
Fear is to Courage as Doubt is to Faith. Not necessarily a religious faith but faith perhaps in Life. Throughout all the junk you dealt with Life continued and you dealt with it. Sure, you might have found better ways to deal, but your still here, (and maybe learned a few thing) so there is no reason not to have faith that you will deal with whatever comes your way… only now perhaps, without the fear of doubt, finding better ways.
Let it go. let all the worry about some imagined future and fear of what happened in the past go. Do your work, pay attention, adjust when required and breathe. Learn better, do better, repeat. What more can anyone ask of themselves.
Enjoy your time of doubt because that’s when anything might happen and you might even learn something
PeterParticipantYou certainly have had a hard year. I can’t address the issues you have experienced however would like to say something about the concept of hope.
If I mourn my hope that all will improve due to simple luck, will this allow me to move on and redefine my own goals and aspirations?
I think it depends on how you understand and exercise this thing we call hope.
Though some will disagree with me I believe that Hope is a skill. Most people I have observed assume they “know” what concepts such as hope, forgiveness, love… without ever questioning their expectations, of those ideals, and so hope unskillfully.
We can hope with eyes closed (Passive) or with eyes open (Active). The danger with passive hope is that is often not hope but wishful or magical thinking. Active hope is more intentional even when the hope is for something that is beyond our control.
Hope with eyes open is hope that is not attached to the outcome of what’s hoped but open to a something not yet visible. It is a kind of hope that is a doing by not doing. You might hope for your parent’s well-being to improve and work towards that goal, acknowledging as it says in the serenity prayer, changing what you can and accepting what you can’t, unattached to how that well-being might look. In this way, you create space for what is hoped to emerge in ways you might not have thought of.
There is a difference between fantasy, a dream, a goal, and an intention, and before we hope it might be helpful to become conscious of what our hope is pointed to. Is the hope pointed to a fantasy, a dream, a goal or an intention? Once that is identified we might better know what we are really hoping for and if its worth holding on to.
For example, I might hope to win the lottery, but never buy a ticket. Such hope would be hope with eyes shut and unskillful. When I examine that hope I see its a fantasy hoping that luck will lead to Financial Security. The reality I’m really hoping for financial security. If I let go of the hope to win the lotto and instead hope for financial security, working towards that goal, while remaining unattached to how that Financial security must look like and be experienced I suspect I might discover that perhaps such security might not have anything to do with money at all.
We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality. -Seneca
“the most painful state of being is remembering a future, particularly the one you’ll never have.” – Kierkegaard
PeterParticipantPerhaps its in how you define purpose. I think everything has a inherent purpose for example a seed purpose is to become a flower, a tree, a weed… That we are capable of recognizing or acknowledging purpose within ourselves and others is different question.
Of course when most people talk about purpose they are usually thinking of something grand and easily recognizable and maybe even applauded by others (so we “know” it counts).
PeterParticipantI think in dealing with anger we need to accept it as a valid emotion and experience. There is a time for all things.
You were hurt, it sucks, and its appropriate to feel some anger over what happened. The question then becomes what do you do with those feelings.
Acting out of anger would more likely to be a reaction to the experience then a response to it. And in reaction there is always a danger in becoming stuck in in anger where we become a victim to all that befalls us.
All emotions serve a purpose and anger contains the energy within it to address the issue to which the anger points to. That energy however can also be turned against ourselves and deplete us so we need to make our anger as conscious as possible and use the energy wisely.
PeterParticipantIn Buddhism, I think the teaching might be to experience your life consciously, as it is with intention but without being attached to results, as in demanding that the result have certain outcome. One remains engaged in life while detached from results.
PeterParticipantWould the earth be better off with out humans?
Yes, environmentally certainly, but it would not be conscious as being so.
Then again, the sun could explode and destroy the earth… and one wonders if in that moment the earth would have felt it had purpose and that perhaps without it the universe might not be better off? Where would such wondering end?
I feel that the answer to the question lies in the question of consciousness which we know surprisingly little. Most spiritual writings, when the worlds are aloud to speak, suggest that Life/Universe/God/Love longs to become conscious of itself. That there is a kind of gravitational push towards a collective unconsciousness becoming a collective consciousness. Even within the study of quantum theory there is a hint that the mind participates in the creation of the material world if more often then not unconsciously. Such a realization would demand we become more conscious individuals. (which could be our purpose/meaning we give to life)
When one starts heading down that path of reasoning for an answer one sees that all experience are valid regardless of our judgments as they push us into consciousness. It is my conjecture that we become conscious when confronted with the problem of opposites. We do not become aware of cold until we have also experienced warmth.
If, in my opinion, the question of meaning is a question of consciousness we bring to life, then the next step is learning how to say Yes to Life as it is, all the good and the bad, all the joy all the pain, and know it to be Love.
The trick is being able to say Yes to Life as it is and still stand for one truths in the moment one knows them as truths. Fulfilling our destiny as we exercise our free will.
In such a place of being the question of if the earth would be better off without humans is no longer asked.
PeterParticipantWow you wrote my story. I am also a 54-year-old bachelor, living modestly, with aging parents and little social life.
I am concerned as I’m not sure how I will get on if I continue to be unable to envision something changing. My work keeps me preoccupied, killing time, which I am grateful for but my weekends can be hell. I am not depressed though I am sad. Its becoming more and more difficult to connect to others and a part of me wonders if I might be less sad if I just accept life as it is as based on my actions I must want to be alone.
I have no answers Dustin but I’m begging to think there are a lot of us out there in the same position.
PeterParticipantThere are some who might view the story of Cinderella as being about gender roles. However as though symbolic language we see that the story might be about a time a cinders, grief, depression and a guide as to how to work through such times.
Like a dream each of the characters within the story represents a attribute of the dreamer/person hearing the story.
The story starts with a a persons who’s psych – feeling and being state – is in a time of ashes. The inner mother attribute in stead of being nurturing has become the ‘step mother’ – negative self talk, your not good enough, pretty enough, strong enough, lovable… The sisters representing the creative impulses, things ones liked to do have turned against you, no longer enjoyable and unable to pull the psych out of this time sadness. Alas the inner father – ability to set and defend ones boundaries – is missing and there are no brothers. It is a dark night of the soul
Here the story shows its wisdom. When we first find ourselves in a time of ashes the feeling/being aspects of the psych is not equipped to fight or defend itself. The advice here is for the psych to focus is on daily tasks of life. Go to work, clean the house… In symbolic language the house is often a symbol of the self. To work through the time of ashes we must take care of ourselves, our basic needs. We create in small ways a environment where healing can take place.
Cinderella does not role up in a ball, hide in a corner or shake her first of the unfairness of all. The focus is on the tasks of ones daily routine but with eyes open. The story insures that a numinous moment will come when something happens that points to some other possibility, a ball (wholeness). A possibility where her rags are turned to a ball gown. Cloths often symbolize the ideals in which we dress are selves in. Cinderella (feeling/being) gets a glimpse of seeing herself different. This is not something Cinderella (feeling/being) forces to happen but allows to happen. She is going with the flow and doing so gets the help of a deeper nurturing archetype of the God Mother.
Of course the negative self talk will be right there telling you you can’t go, your not good enough, lovable… and here Cinderella does not confront the negativity but sneaks off with the help of the God mother and other smaller perhaps over looked attributes of the psych that ones hasn’t paid much attention to before.
The story has a warning, at midnight (time of transition) she must return home. We are not meant to stay in these time numinous moment. I think the danger is getting stuck always looking for that next numinous moment. The seeker who is always seeking the next numinous moment but never becoming the finder. Never taking what one learns and turning it into action/wisdom.
This moment awakens the Prince, the psych inner warrior. The story changes from one of passively taking care of daily needs to action, a search, and working to reconnect to ones feeling and being nature.
The shoe does not fit the step sisters, no mater how you might try to make them fit. The ways of coping in the past and that might have fed ones creativity in the past may not be the way out. This is a search that will lead to a new way of seeing things and finding the right fit. This is a finding and connection to ones authentic self.
In the end the stories promises that if one goes though these trials there will come a time when ones doing and thinking marries up with ones feeling and being becoming the King and Queen of the psysh. Once that connection is made new adventure await. Children attributes of the psych you have yet to discover will be born and require to be nurtured but that is another story.
So yes you are on the right track. 🙂
PeterParticipantWell said PeaceHawk, thanks for the reminder
PeterParticipantThanks for sharing your hurt
PeterParticipantFor someone prone to depression the questions of purposes and meaning can become self defeating.
Such questions have been asked since the birth of consciousness… why am ‘I’ here, naked, shame… how can I endure, there must be meaning.
The answer to such questions I think require skill. I mean by this knowing when to ask the question and seek its answers.
For myself I think Joseph Campbell answered the question that I relate to the most. “Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.”
It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer… Life does not give you meaning, you give meaning to Life.
In such light, even my depression is purposeful and meaningful and brings meaning to Life. I do not fully understand it, yet I… ‘taste’ that it is true, and enough, and so I no longer ask the questions.
As for being Happy. The idea of happiness and the experience of being happy can become so confusing and wrapped up in each other. Especially when you read something like the following:
“If you decide that you’re going to be happy from now on for the rest of your life, you will not only be happy, you will become enlightened. Unconditional happiness is the highest technique there is. This is truly a spiritual path, and it as direct and sure a path to Awakening as could possibly exist.”
― Michael A. Singer
Right, sounds so easy, if I just decide to be happy I will be happy? How does one decide such a think… and what is this Happy that this Michael speaks of? The feeling, an experience, and idea…. I think for Michael Happiness was getting to a place where he could give an unconditional Yes to all of life’s experience, those we experience as good and those we experience as bad. Happiness is getting to experience Life as it is and so give life meaning.
I would change the quote to read:
“If you can give an unconditional Yes to life’s experiences from now on for the rest of your life, you will not only be happy, you will become enlightened. Unconditional Yes is the highest technique there is. This is truly a spiritual path, and it as direct and sure a path to Awakening as could possibly exist.”
Unconditional Yes/Unconditional Happiness… I don’t know I’m still working it out, yet I know there is a truth to that statement. I can taste it 🙂
You might find the following Ted talk interesting: He does not say it but I think he found a way to give a unconditional Yes to his experience of depression and doing so found if not happiness, meaning, and in finding meaning… Happiness… Not a feeling, not a moment in time, but a happiness in being?
“The opposite of depression is not happiness, but vitality, and it was vitality that seemed to seep away from me in that moment.”
- This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by Peter.
PeterParticipant“To attain true inner freedom, you must be able to objectively watch your problems instead of being lost in them… Once you’ve made the commitment to free yourself of the scared person inside, you will notice that there is a clear decision point at which your growth takes place.” ― Michael A. Singer, The Untethered Soul: The Journey Beyond Yourself
Best wishes Colby, very happy for you
PeterParticipantI wonder if Balance is not the freedom from fear or desire but the ability to hold the tension of freedom and desire without attachment, And so we dance.
Dance the art of falling and catching ourselves gracefully. Dancing from the still point
“At the still point of the turning world. Neither flesh nor fleshless;
Neither from nor towards; at the still point, there the dance is,
But neither arrest nor movement. And do not call it fixity,
Where past and future are gathered. Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline. Except for the point, the still point,
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.” TS Eliot -
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