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August 5, 2019 at 10:39 am #306661Cali ChicaParticipant
Dear Anita,
Yes, instead we are traumatized fear takes hold of us.
Yes, and it is this fear that is detached from its primary source.
When I was fearful of the reply of my friends, it wasn’t that all encompassing gripping fear I would have with my mother. But STILL the fact that there was ANY fear in a scenario that deserved none – that’s the stuff!
That’s the stuff -that’s the reality. Any ounce of fear in a scenario that warrants none – must be examined. Yes human beings have fear and anxiety, but we aren’t talking about them – we are talking about me!
So of course these friends reply in a way that is NOT my mother. They did not respond in the way that my mother did saying: oh what you’re too busy for me? it seems you have time for others.
They didn’t try to take and take.
They are normal human beings with their own lives and support systems. They do not NEED me or RELY on me. It is not my ROLE to be their caretaker. No one’s caretaker.
Well no, that’s not true. I am the caretaker or some sort for my husband.
Funny how I never adopted this role, the term is not caretaker per se, but you get my gist- it is CARING, invested, a supportive spouse that makes him my number 1.
August 5, 2019 at 10:52 am #306675AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
“It is not my ROLE to be their caretaker. No one’s caretaker”- I think I get your gist:
It is not a child’s role to take care of a parent who is throwing a temper tantrum !!!
When your father called you repeatedly, when you were an adult, that is, to help him with your mother/ his wife while she was throwing a temper tantrum (be it about her extramarital affair or in the example of your first post today), that means your role was already established!
You use “ROAR” sometimes. Think of this: a lion cub is throwing a temper tantrum, the mother lioness is not perturbed is she. Now think of the lioness, towering over the cub, powerful jaws, throwing a temper tantrum in front of her cub, what does the cub feel? Answer: scared she’ll kill him with those powerful jaws. The roar of the cub is small. The ROAR of his mother, well, that is scary!
anita
August 5, 2019 at 11:08 am #306687Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
You made a very powerful point just now, that I haven’t outlined before, or thought of this way:
The ROAR of the child is a lot less powerful than the mother.
How interesting to me. My mother made it seem that she was a child, when convenient to her. Convincing me that her roar was no stronger or detrimental than mine.
This is entirely untrue. Wow what a lie!
Her ROAR is horribly oppressive to a child! How quickly I still forget that she was in fact a MOTHER, and I was the cub/child!
How not innate it is to me to not see her as someone in authority given that she played the victim “save me” pretend role throughout her life (when convenient).
How not natural it is for me to think: someone with her authority and her power should NEVER abuse it in this way, roaring like a lion.
if she was here, she would say, well look at you ROARING AT ME!
as if to say: well if I do it – its fine, because you do it back – and you hurt your poor mother – tit for tat
how idiotic, how horrific, how juvenile – how disgusting…
August 5, 2019 at 11:29 am #306691Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
To add on. I thought about the concept of C-PTSD, and displaced fear.
I think about how there is so much fear about people who are not nearly as important as my mother reacting in a poor way.
I used to think because my mother was so outward focus, and focused on what others did and said – and so of course I was taught this way.
Yes, but this is only one portion.
I now see that ALSO, I see the roar of others as the roar of my mother. A fear inducing roar that can paralyze me and change my entire day, week, etc. Feeling no power over this roar – and assuming that others will roar the same..
August 5, 2019 at 11:33 am #306693AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
“The roar of the child..”- what roar? The cub doesn’t roar at her mother the lioness, never !
You were scared when she roared, you whimpered in return, you didn’t roar. But you forgot that because over the years, as a teenager perhaps, you started getting feisty. You roared back some. But the fear and whimper of the early years, when you had no roar, this is the fear of every day now.
It is difficult, when we think of our childhood, to see the beginning of it, the early years, the years before you had a roar.
anita
August 5, 2019 at 11:39 am #306695AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I read your recent post after I submitted my reply above (there may be more double posting..)
“A fear inducing roar that can paralyze me and change my entire day, week, etc. Feeling no power over this roar”- this is it, the fear of the early years, when the mother roars at her cub: paralyzing. And nothing feels the same anymore. After that first ROAR, that trauma of the first roar, nothing feels the same anymore, it is like time stops and … this is when disassociation happens and indeed, the emotional experience changes drastically… this is why and how nothing feels the same anymore, the day, the week, the years and decades that follow the trauma are experienced differently.
anita
August 5, 2019 at 11:53 am #306707Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
I read both of your replies.
Wow, what roar?
Exactly right, remember my “feisty” years, teenage and on when I would talk back, “roar back.”
What a misrepresentation of the roar story (lol – had to say it as it made me chuckle)
What a misinterpretation of the cause and effect scenario, the hierarchy of the lioness and cub – what a mind f***
Clearly Cali Chica is not just distressed, she is confused.
She is smart, and she is “knowing” of many things, but she is utterly confused. Of who and what.
Of people’s roles, priorities. What comes first? What comes second?
How would she know? How should she know?
By starting fresh – my assuming nothing – by going back to the beginnings…
August 5, 2019 at 12:08 pm #306713AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I think that your recent post is the most advanced writing you have ever done on this healing path of yours. Where you are today is a place you haven’t been before. You are understanding what it is. I am awed of you.
Anytime, next this afternoon, later, tomorrow, anytime you want to develop what you wrote here, please do.
anita
August 5, 2019 at 1:25 pm #306753Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
Wow what a compliment. I re read my entire post to gauge what made you say this. And it began to make sense.
I will elaborate and develop.
There is a humbling necessary to grow, a lack of know it all. A lack of understanding. If an individual wants to start anew, needs to start fresh – it is surrending to not knowing. To starting primitively at basics.
An expert can surely not start from scratch. Well and expert who deems himself an expert that’s for sure. How can I start fresh If I believe that all I’ve been doing thus far has been working.
I notice I am not humble in My journey. When you mentioned the term humble last week “be humble like your husband”
I thought. Yes. Like him! She knows!
Not like me.
I believe I have been doing it okay so far, and that perhaps I can continue exactly as I’ve been doing but expect change. Sure having made changes along the way, change in habits, removing certain people.
But change in priority? In value?
Well here comes the part about confusion. Cali Chia is confused. She isn’t confused because she’s an idiot. She’s confused because her “guider” was cruel. Cali Chica has been misinformed and misled. Just because many parts of her life turned out okay or more than okay means nothing in regards to her being misled by her mother, not receiving appropriate guidance.
Cali Chica doesn’t know truly who and what are important. She is fearful. Now that she’s an adult she’s fearful to choose what her new “guiders” advise her. Whether it be Anita, a therapist, books and education. She is fearful of this because the roar of her mother has traumatized her so deeply that she expects this roar from Many corners. She still believes her mother exists – lurking in the corners in the background – ready to attack, mock, or ridicule.
So take both confusion and fear together. Both together and it’s a miracle she even moves forward.
Confusion and fear together sounds to me like a lost child. Finding their way slowly. Looking up at adults and strangers with both fear and invalidated trust. Saying is this the way?
But the thing is Cali Chica is not a child. She is an adult, a hardened one. So instead of this sweet innocent child, CC is RESISTANT to change. She is a lost child yet she is resistant to being open to finding a new way. As her “own” way in the past never worked. Always came with a roar.
In order for her to find her way or the right path for her, she must start fresh. It is imperative she start from scratch – be fresh. Have no fear. Speak your truth. Start anew
August 5, 2019 at 1:30 pm #306757AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
I am looking forward to read your recent post (and anything you may add to it) first thing when I return tomorrow morning. I am especially exhausted today. Be back Tues Morning.
anita
August 6, 2019 at 7:00 am #306801AnonymousGuestDear Cali Chica:
An important day, yesterday. Here are quotes from all our exchanges yesterday (I added the bold, italicized in parentheses are my added words today. I suggest you edit/ reform the following to your liking and print it for yourself):
CC: C-PTSD, fear detached from its origin... we can not truly “feel” the weight of our entire trauma, our bodies and minds protect us from it…I woke up with a text from S asking how my London trip was. Instant dread I had. Woke up to remembering my sister texted me last night (nothing important) more dread.…If I am to relinquish the social butterfly role it is the in-the-moment fear that is key…Voice says this: .. Oh my sister hope she is doing well, sometimes I think she is a ticking time bomb. No wait, its been months since she has been this way – in fact I AM the one who has had much more distress recently and she has been supportive. Change the narrative….(assertive action, text sent:) “Sister – glad you had a great night. Logging off today going to spend the day with my husband in BK.” Done… In the shower at first…dread – what will they say. (ex. of how the healing relationship in your life works:) My husband was washing his face…He asks what’s wrong. I tell him about the texts. He says great – what’s the problem?.. He said, c’mon this is your closest friend from college, you and her go way back, she is so supportive. I said yes you’re right.. (ex. of mindfulness in everything:) I take the rest of my shower deliberately.. I washed my hair slowly.. deliberate change must be enforced. In speech and in physical movement. I didn’t go check my phone abruptly right after, as I always would…I now look at my phone. No responses. Feeling the physical discomfort. The shoulders tensing. Then reminding myself that I got myself a nice massage the day before to combat this, to enjoy the results of it a little longer. We headed to Brooklyn.. I say stop. I physically stop. I shake my head (physically) and say. Lets not talk about this today. Lets enjoy this view… You taught me last week that I am not assertive. I am not assertive at all. I can become aggressive yes, but assertive no… Since I have not been doing this, I end up with severe frustration, annoyance, and rage. It takes a higher level ability to speak your truth in an effective way.. in a way that is safe and gentle – non attacking.
anita: Excellent mindfulness practice and three perfectly worded assertive emails… the big mother is throwing a tantrum. What does a child do? Can’t possibly conceive being assertive with the mother, or aggressive…Instead, we are traumatized, fear takes hold of us, that dread you mentioned in your mindful recent post. We are afraid of this big, out of control mother.
CC: Yes, instead we are traumatized fear takes hold of us. Yes, and it is this fear that is detached from its primary source… Any ounce of fear in a scenario that warrants none – must be examined… So of course these friends reply in a way that is NOT my mother. They did not respond in the way that my mother did.
anita:… You use “ROAR” sometimes. Think of .. the lioness, towering over the cub, powerful jaws, throwing a temper tantrum in front of her cub, what does the cub feel? Answer: scared she’ll kill him with those powerful jaws. The roar of the cub is small. The ROAR of his mother, well, that is scary!
CC:… The ROAR of the child is a lot less powerful than the mother… My mother made it seem that she was a child.. How quickly I still forget that she was in fact a MOTHER, and I was the cub/child!
anita:“The roar of the child..”- what roar? The cub doesn’t roar at her mother the lioness, never! You were scared when she roared, you whimpered in return, you didn’t roar. But you forgot that because over the years, as a teenager perhaps, you started getting feisty. You roared back some. But the fear and whimper of the early years, when you had no roar, this is the fear of every day now.
CC: I see the roar of others as the roar of my mother. A fear inducing roar that can paralyze me and change my entire day, week, etc. Feeling no power over this roar.
anita: this is it, the fear of the early years, when the mother roars at her cub: paralyzing.. After that first ROAR, that trauma of the first roar, nothing feels the same anymore, it is like time stops and … this is when disassociation happens and indeed, the emotional experience changes drastically… this is why and how nothing feels the same anymore, the day, the week, the years and decades that follow the trauma are experienced differently.
CC: Wow, what roar? Exactly right, remember my “feisty” years, teenage and on when I would talk back, “roar back.” What a misrepresentation of the roar story (lol – had to say it as it made me chuckle) What a misinterpretation of the cause and effect scenario, the hierarchy of the lioness and cub – what a mind f*** Clearly Cali Chica is not just distressed, she is confused. She is smart, and she is “knowing” of many things, but she is utterly confused. Of who and what.Of people’s roles, priorities. What comes first? What comes second? How would she know? How should she know? By starting fresh – my assuming nothing – by going back to the beginnings…
anita: I think that your recent post is the most advanced writing you have ever done on this healing path of yours. Where you are today is a place you haven’t been before. You are understanding what it is. I am awed of you.
CC:.. There is a humbling necessary to grow, a lack of know it all. A lack of understanding. If an individual wants to start anew, needs to start fresh – it is surrendering to not knowing. To starting primitively at basics… Cali Chia is confused. She isn’t confused because she’s an idiot. She’s confused because her “guider” was cruel. Cali Chica has been misinformed and misled… She is fearful… the roar of her mother has traumatized her so deeply that she expects this roar from Many corners. She still believes her mother exists – lurking in the corners in the background – ready to attack, mock, or ridicule. So take both confusion and fear together. Both together and it’s a miracle she even moves forward. Confusion and fear together sounds to me like a lost child.. But the thing is Cali Chica is not a child. She is an adult, a hardened one. So instead of this sweet innocent child, CC is RESISTANT to change. She is a lost child yet she is resistant to being open to finding a new way…In order for her to find her way or the right path for her, she must start fresh. It is imperative she start from scratch – be fresh.”
anita
August 6, 2019 at 8:12 am #306811Cali ChicaParticipantDearest Anita,
I started reading your incredible post to me today, and I paused – I was not focused. I was not focused so I paused – naturally I would push through – I did not.
Let me explain further. Something went on inside of me just now that is perfectly relevant for this discussion.
I mentioned to you last week that I will be having a Gyn appt soon to start the process of a work up – if needed. Given that I am not getting younger I do want to get an idea of where some of my labs etc stand.
The appt is today at 4 pm. It was the only one available until October. I looked ahead at the schedule and knew that if I left by 3:40 pm from work I could make it. Would it be rushing? yes, but this rushing I couldn’t avoid.
So here we are 11 am on this work day, there are now 2 add on patients that will go until 5 pm. I asked the other physician to see if they could come earlier, but unfortunately they can not.
And this is the stuff.
I first felt anger, clenching of the jaw, tension building up in my neck and shoulders. “god of course doctors are the worst patients, we can’t even get to our own appts, that we seldom even go to anyway!”
Then next thought: “of course half my doctor girlfriends have infertility and issues, how ironic, its stressful to make it to the Gyn office to BEGIN with let alone start a work up let alone be low stress enough to get pregnant!”
The next patient of mine had a know it all attitude, some rich real estate man, showy, boisterous, arrogant.
It made me more annoyed, “look at people like this that make all this money and have all this autonomy!” And here I am doing good work and having trained so hard and I can’t even make it to a F*** doctors appointment!!!
And then I paused:
I did the following, what am I feeling right now?
- annoyance at lack of control – I can’t dictate my own schedule and that is frustrating
- annoyance at the field of medicine and how it can be oppressive, and difficult to take care of our own health ironically
- anger at the fact that there was a last minute change, even though I tried my best to ensure I could make it to this appt
- annoyance that this doctor – who I liked at first visit is so hard to book!
And then
- I know this is the state of affairs with my field, if I find it oppressive, and if in the future I find it is getting in the way of my emotional health, and ability to not rush – I can consider looking at another position or going part time. I have the option
- Speaking of options, just because I feel this now doesn’t mean it is forever, doesn’t mean that I will always have difficulty attending to my own needs – medical or otherwise
- I am happy for my level of training and great resume, so I will have more options in the future if/when needed, in NYC and beyond.
And thats it Anita.
I noticed I SKIPPED OVER what I was feeling and went straight to anger and annoyance. Lets say my husband – my easy go to punching bag – was standing right in front of me. I would have had anger and annoyance at him, as though he was the culprit! How wrong! How ridiculous. How juvenile. How INEFFECTIVELY COMMUNICATING! HOW NOT ASSERTIVE!
Let’s say he was in front of me now, I would say this:
I feel sad and disappointed I won’t make this appt I was looking forward to. I realize my birthday is coming up in October, I will be 34, which makes me at that age of increased infertility, closer to the age of 35. I notice that I have increased anxiety about getting into see a doctor and getting some blood work done sooner than later given this. I am educated and know it is just a matter of a few months, and it isn’t about dates. Regardless, I feel annoyed I don’t have freedom to control my schedule and attend to this important thing.
Sigh.
And that’s being mature. And that’s effectively communicating – to myself and others. And that – most of all – is not jumping over awareness and mindfulness and what I am feeling, straight to anger and rage.
August 6, 2019 at 8:36 am #306823AnonymousGuestDear/ Dearest Cali Chica:
“straight to anger and rage”- because fear is the most uncomfortable emotion there is, no emotion, no experience is more difficult to endure, more undesirable than fear.
Two patients were added to your schedule, “I fist felt anger, clenching of the jaw, tension building up in my neck and shoulders”- the muscles tense as if you are about to feel pain (this is why people tense when seeing a needle, knowing they are soon to feel that needle pierce through). The pain your brain perceived at the moment you found out about the added two patients is Fear.
Fear itself is pain. The muscles contract so to push the fear away. We go straight to anger, not noticing fear is there first. Fear of being stuck in an undesirable schedule, fear of being stuck. And then, the fear expands maybe, fear of being infertile, of having to go through a treatment, fear maybe of pregnancy itself, fear like fire, igniting available fuel.
Straight to anger, better stated: quickly to anger is a way to not experience fear.
anita
August 6, 2019 at 8:47 am #306831Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
Fear itself is pain. Wow.
Go straight to anger, not noticing fear.
That’s exactly it, better said. I do not notice fear, I skip over it – so It seems – and go quickly to anger. I do not RECOGNIZE MY FEAR.
Especially fear of being stuck. Especially.
Going quickly to anger does not benefit anyone, not myself, not my husband – no one.
I will work hard to keep awareness of doing this. Okay on to your first post of the day
August 6, 2019 at 9:19 am #306843Cali ChicaParticipantDear Anita,
I read your first post, an excellent compilation of our important talks – I will print this out and add it to my folder, with the notes you re typed from your therapist from 2011.
I notice that I have fear for many reasons, but one main reason – I expect things to go wrong.
When it comes to the Gyn, yes expecting I will be rushed and not make it to the meeting. Expecting the high stress levels of both my husband and I will lead to infertility. Fearful of this, although we aren’t pushing to have kids asap, knowing that I fear it will be in my future. And anger at this high stress level, because of my trauma predominantly – feeling angry that I can not be relaxed.
it is all related. it is all fear and negativity – it is all assuming that the worst outcome will be tied to me.
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