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  • #332691
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I know this is heavy, a heavy topic. Sometimes I don’t know if you will be back, when what I suggest in my posts to you is so very unpleasant to contemplate or consider. But I don’t back away from what I learn to be true, no matter what. I know that you will choose to read or not, when to read, when to reply, and what to do in your life. I also know that if I post too much, you can (and did) take your time, take the breaks you need to take and return if and when you want to return.

    So, I was thinking about our exchange yesterday on my walk and it occurred to me that I can identify what is in the core of my past relationship with my mother/ your past relationship with your mother/ your current relationship with your sister:

    = what it is, is that they attack you when you feel affection for them and try to help them; they attack you when you love them.

    This is it.

    Jan 9 I wrote to you: “I am so touched.. It brings a tear to my eyes, some sort of emotion, touched, affectionate toward you”. It was awkward for me to write those short sentences and I got stuck. I wrote: it brings tears to my eyes, and then I said to myself, tears plural is too many, better write a tear, singular. Then I checked, do I really have tears, it was a very thin mist in my eyes, not full tears. I wrote: “some sort of emotion”, not committal, uncomfortable.

    The day after, I read your response: “I too felt that affection.. I think it’s best for me”, and I thought that next, you I will read: best to end this communication, this friendship. I felt a sort of a .. little dread perhaps (not committal to the dread either) and then I read that you weren’t ending our communication.

    I didn’t feel a strong relief just as I didn’t feel a strong dread. And my affection before was repressed, cautious, uncomfortable, somewhat alarming.

    Why all this reaction? Because to feel affection for my mother was returned by her aggression against me. So affection is punished, returned with pain. Is it a wonder then that feeling affection, of softness for another is scary?

    And isn’t it why you’ve had great trouble feeling/ expressing that softness toward your husband?

    When your sister asked you some  time ago why you don’t appear to be in love with your husband, she wasn’t aware, and neither were  you aware at the time, that your sister herself was a big part of why you didn’t feel and express that softness to your husband or talked about him with that softness.

    Her part in it is that when you repeatedly reached out to her with affection, with love, with the sincere desire to help her so that she will feel better, what was her response: bite you where it is soft, throw dust at you so that you will stumble.

    Well, no  wonder then.

    anita

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by anita.
    #332693
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I’ll read your post and yesterday’s again in an hour and reply. I am currently selling some furniture and will be able to read and write shortly. Happy Saturday to you.

    #332731
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I wanted to update you again, do not worry nothing that you have written has been in any form too heavy for me. In fact, it is the perfect timing for our conversations. Sorry I wasn’t able to reply earlier I am in the middle of selling a lot of my furniture. It is actually going to continue until the rest of the day. Therefore I will reply to you with a fresh mind and reread everything tomorrow morning. Thank you so much for understanding and your post above.
    it’s sat with me all day. More soon. Tomorrow!

    #332733
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I feel good that you posted the above, thank you. I hope you sell your furniture for a good price, I bet it is of fine quality. Have a good rest of Saturday!

    anita

    #332843
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Good morning. So much progress so little time.

    I have a lot to say and it’s hard to organize it in a sequence, so I figured I will just start. I will let things flow and hopefully get to it all.

    First of all, I didn’t comment about what you stated, the dread that you felt that perhaps I was going to end contact. When you read my statement of “maybe it’s best…

    It’s not surprising actually, think about it, this recently happened with you and my sister. We aren’t exactly the same, but it wasn’t long ago. You did develop some affection towards my sister and some degree of attachment, which quickly ended. Anytime any kind of relationship ends quickly or drastically like that it does affect us of course. It’s a slight shock -obviously much more if the person is extremely important to you.

    Reading a certain language for me probably triggered that and you thought wow, again!

    Also everything that you wrote about your mother it makes perfect sense. Something pleasant and positive has to be followed up by negative. I know exactly what you mean when it comes to this. Always waiting for the other shoe to drop, too good to be true. All of that!

    but no worries Anita- that is not the case here!

    I woke up today and I had a lot of thoughts swimming around in my head. Here’s the first one, it may not go in sequence in what we have been writing -but it is important for me to get many of these out, because it is processing the relationship that I have had with my sister. You did a wonderful job of bringing up these old quotes,  because it brought me back especially to that time when we were visiting California last year, and how much my experience with her overshadowed everything. That was very key.

    SoLet’s say her diagnosis of borderline personality disorder, BPD, is official. Let’s leave it at that I will get back to that. Obviously a very very crucial point.  The MOST CRUCIAL!!

    So, about 2 1/2 years ago before I was going to go no contact, you likely remember me saying something to you. I told you that my husband had this concern, that if I want no contact with my parents, it would make things much worse for my sister. Which I understood would likely be true as well. I mention this to you and you had a good response, you mentioned how it may be true but at the end of the day the people are really negative and toxic for all, so it is not a reason to stay in contact with my parents. Something of that sort.

    so I know it’s not a game of who harassed who more, but I did put a lot on my sister. During the time I want no contact, on February 15, 2018. My parents called her thousands of times overnight, while she was in Phoenix. By herself. The next morning I also bombarded her with millions of text messages. I was an emotionally unraveled person, and I was not Messerli thinking of her state. After this time, I was no contact with my parents. I did not communicate with my sister about her happenings with my parents. But I know for sure that things were much worse with her during this time. You know this as well. It got so bad for her that she too wet no I’ll contact. I know in a way this is almost a good thing. It led her to make this decision that was likely best for her future. However, the key here is that because of me things were worse for her. I recall a few years back I had not gone home for Christmas, instead I had gone to my in-laws. Something like that. Well when my sister came home for Christmas, they were entirely silent with her. Because they were so angry with me and what I had done, they punish her.

    There were many times where I did not think about what was going on in my sisters life and continue to text and bombard her with all of my drama. Issues with my mom things like this over and over. I know I did it.
    I’m not saying all this to excuse her behavior now, but it does make sense that my sister is so angry and resentful of me, perhaps now more than ever. She likely feels that she has gotten so much crap and burden from my parents over these past two years because of me that it made her life a living hell. But in reality, I know that showed her the truth pathology that is my parents and of course it made her leave.  The other thing is that I think deep down inside she gets angry when I place boundaries such as, I can’t talk about this right now, etc. She’s probably thinking in her head, what about all those times where you used to bombard me at any hour when mom was going crazy on you. What about that?

    I respond to this now if somebody was to ask me by the following. I didn’t know better then, I was not on the path. I was not on the journey. Now that I do know better, I don’t treat others this way. I have respect for other people’s time, and what they are going through in their old life. I will try my best not to bombard anyone with what I am going through if I know that they cannot handle it. In fact, I am developing my own coping skills so that I don’t actually have to unload on others all the time in general. That is true adult hood and emotional maturity.

    So yes I think that is my answer. But her more recent anger and resentment likely comes from all of this plus of course a lifetime of other things but we don’t have to get to that.

    Next, I recall at that birthday she said something about how I really need to change, and that even Anita said the same thing. I didn’t ask further because I know that the relationship that you and her had was in confidence. But what she was trying to insinuate is that her and yourself, we’re going to have some sort of intervention with me for my behaviors.

    When I heard this, I felt like well I probably do need this help, I have been acting pretty bad especially to my husband, and I get so frenzied I can’t control it.  I wonder what that intervention was going to entail, you don’t have to talk about it I Needa. It’s probably not relevant now anyway. But it seems like my sister was very defiant and in emphatic, thinking gosh, Cali Chica you need help, even Anita says so!!!!! Roar.
    Yes her roar is directed towards people. She has lots of anger towards people. If you take me out of this equation right now and think about her friends. All she does is have anger and negativity towards her friends. It’s true.

    I have a lot to say about the borderline aspect of things, it’s very enlightening to me. But I will wait for your reply this morning.

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by Cali Chica.
    #332849
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Some typos above. I meant to write that you don’t have to talk about that intervention that my sister mentioned if you don’t want to. I’ll respond after you reply

    #332857
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita, just read your reply and had simultaneously posted this:

    I am going to go ahead and post this next, as it is flowing freely now.  Feel free to respond whenever!

    I am back, now ready to focus on the crux of the matter.  I will write down key points you made. Key understanding of my sister.

    A relationship with a bpd person is a source of great distress. It didn’t occur to me until this morning.. it is more serious than I thought.

    Yes, it is more serious.  It is more serious than you thought, and more serious than I thought.  BUT – this realization feels good and settling.  It feels like that “ah ha” moment that I have been waiting for.  I obviously got that with my parents, and never looked back on the decision I made.  This isn’t the same.  Yet, having this understanding is epic and will be life changing.  I know it. I feel it already.  In fact, in the last few days that we have discovered this, my relationship with my husband has exponentially improved.  Skyrocketed even!!! Why? Well that goes to your next and most important message:

    When your sister asked you some  time ago why you don’t appear to be in love with your husband, she wasn’t aware, and neither were  you aware at the time, that your sister herself was a big part of why you didn’t feel and express that softness to your husband or talked about him with that softness.

    Her part in it is that when you repeatedly reached out to her with affection, with love, with the sincere desire to help her so that she will feel better, what was her response: bite you where it is soft, throw dust at you so that you will stumble.

    Well, no  wonder then.

    I continued to reach out to someone, my sister, with softness, and in turn I got bites.  I got so many bites between my mother and her, I had no softness left.  My sister always says this thing: “well that’s on you, no one is asking for your help all the time.” This would enrage me, I would thing – yes yes you are!!! And seeing it now it is the ultimate slap in the face.  It is someone who is so unraveled and incapable of predictable stability that continues to bite the hand that feeds her.  Wow.

    So above I mentioned that I have noticed (and my husband has) monumental change of recent.  As you know I told my sister I was going to be MIA for the rest of the month to which she responded nothing (classic).  And thus, I have not been constantly morning to night worried about her.  Feeling the need to reply back instantly, etc.  You know Anita, one of her biggest complaints to me is how I am always doing a million things at once and always responding to someone immediately etc.  Well how ironic – I learned this as a trained behavior from the two most bloodsucking individuals in my life!!!!

    Neither my mother nor sister can function predictably or have healthy relationships.  Of course my sister is doing a better job now and hopefully will continue to heal so that she may.  But regardless – it is the case.  Both of these individuals relied on me so heavily to fill this void for them, and to help them “not be” this way.  It wasn’t a spoken cry for help – it was – well just was! As a result I have had to multi-task my whole life.

    So here we are now, of COURSE I didn’t have space for love for my husband.  I was fooled into thinking NC with parents would provide  that space, as it became ENTIRELY occupied by my sister.  and NO not because that is my choice, it is because it is her pathology and pattern.

    My husband sat with me on the couch yesterday and told me with true vulnerability, “our chance to be happy in NYC was robbed from us.” As soon as we stepped foot back here, excited for our new chapter – we were bombarded by your sister. Well he would never say bombarded by sister, those are my words – he is far too kind to say so.  But I encouraged him to let it all out.  I then read to him the above quote – about how I have had trouble with softness with him for this exact reason.  I then talked about how I see (and Anita sees) the real issue now.  She true has no value or appreciation, and her erratic and unpredictable ways are constantly bites and disrespect to the people she does have.  Insanity.

    I saw my husband there, true sadness in his face.  And I felt Anita, oh I felt.  I felt sadness.  I felt I would do anything to go back and remove the obstacles from our life that didn’t allow us to truly be just us.  Because when we are just us – we are wonderful.  I assured him that our last obstacle is gone, and whether we live East or West – I know better now.  I know that truly nothing will come in between us.

    Over the last few days I have been able to be entirely present with my husband.  Entirely.  It is two team mates working together completely.  Notice, how you predicted in the past, he was able to be vulnerable with me and express his true deep emotions.  It felt so good Anita to see this.  But of course heartbreaking.

    You know Anita, my family and the insanity that comes with it (including me) has broken his heart.

    I will do everything to fix it, and no sister will ever get in the way.  Anything it takes.  He is first.  Now I know better than ever.

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by Cali Chica.
    #332861
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    Good Sunday morning. First topic in your today’s post, my affection for you/ fear of pain the other day, it is not separate from the topic of bpd and your sister. What I do every day on these forums when I read a person’s story, I go into myself and see how it applies to me. The way I learn about people is not by looking at a person from the outside, as a specimen to study in a laboratory. I study the person and myself at the same time, back and forth, going inside- going outside.

    Regarding your sister’s life being worse because you went no contact with your parents- this is not clear to me at all, because I read her posts early on, in your old thread, in her old thread,  and I don’t think there is such a thing Worse than what she expressed to me about her life experience before you went no contact.

    Regarding: “she said something about how I really need to change, and that even Anita said the same thing.. we’re going to have some sort of intervention with me for my behaviors”- I have zero memory of suggesting to her or agreeing with her that she and I will have an intervention with you for anything. If I did, I’ll be worried because maybe I had a stroke and didn’t know what I was typing away to her and since then forgot all about it, or such thing. What I am going to do after submitting this to you, is go to her thread and look for evidence of a stroke on my part or anything she may have misinterpreted and will get back to you afterwards.

    Regarding you bombarding her when you went NC, well, you can think of a financial restitution that you can make so to compensate her for that, much like is done in civil court cases (you can research what would be a fair amount looking at existing records of people’s cases). If you already gave her money or spent money on her, such as paying for her rent, deduct that from the restitution sum. Also, put together her bombarding  you with her stuff and take that off the restitution sum. If there is a net sum owed to her, pay it.

    But don’t sacrifice the rest of your life by giving her .. more “equal (?) time” to bombard you!

    Post more if you want, I am going to her thread now to re-read.

    anita

    #332889
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I didn’t read yet your 10:23, your time. I am back from a trip down memory lane that I didn’t want to take! I read  mostly my posts to your sister in the 20 pages of her newest thread, ending Oct last year, because I figured I will not be posting to you her words, but my words.

    Before I get to what I found regarding the reason I went to her thread, I want to bring up something I noticed at the end of the communication with her. The trouble between me and her started on Oct 26. This is what I wrote to her: “I am in an all-business attitude regarding our mentorship plan, that is, I mentoring you. I want to create something that will work for you in practical ways. I don’t want our talks to disappear into the past but instead, translate to real-life practice. So we come up with things, I suggest and you agree or disagree, then I readjust my suggestion until it is acceptable to you.. and eventually we agree.. If over time adjustments need to be done, we’ll discuss and adjust”.

    Later that day I wrote to her: “This is why my mentorship suggestion (brought about by you referring to me as your mentor in email) is a long term project… Okay,  let’s start then. I am very serious about this and am ready. Let’s form rules for your  behavior in the context of work and in context of your relationship with your sister. The latter is very relevant because in two days you will be spending time  with her on vacation. These are the rules I already suggested regarding work:

    1. Do  not say to one employee anything about another employee other than 100% positive.

    2. Do not flirt with any employee in any way, shape or form, nor will you seek a relationship with a man at work outside the strictly professional work relationship in the workplace.

    3. Do not share with employees any information on .. other private information that can be used against you. Be friendly to all co-workers, but a friend to none.

    Edit the above and suggest more..”

    Later on that day, I wrote to her: “A bit more about goals. These are the first goals I have in  mind for you, the two in the highest priority group:

    1. Maintain your physical health and safety.

    2. Maintain your current job.

    .. I would place a love relationship with a man in a lower priority group, a long-term goal. I would invest in perfecting a list of rules.. to serve as guideline to your behavior in different contexts such as at work and with your sister. And, very important: you are welcome to not do this work with me. But better do some work with someone, because you need someone’s help and guidance.”

    Later: “I will not chase you to do this work, don’t want to feel like I am pulling teeth”.

    Back to now: the above was the end of the mentorship program. I will not quote to you her words. But my experience was that she was not interested in mentorship. She referred to me as a mentor, but well, she didn’t to engage. She got angry at the pulling teeth comment, her anger lasted to the next day, Oct 27 which was the last of our communication.

    You can tell me what you learned from the above.

    Second part, the alleged intervention. Because of what seems to me a misrepresentation of facts by her, I will mention in a minimal way her input to me. I have qualifying comments after the following account. Thread started Oct 1. Oct 4 I wrote to her: “I was wrong June: I inaccurately projected my mother into you”. She then brought up (her idea, her initiative) that other people do the same thing. I asked her “who and what?” and she answered that you did (still didn’t specify the what part, and I didn’t ask, but wrote to her: I could easily see your sister inaccurately projecting into you and .. so  did I… I did, she did and we both hurt you that way. I can assure you one thing: I will do my very best to not do that again… From what your sister shared it was obvious that you were very, very considerate of her and not at all the histrionic person I thought you were (a projection of my mother into you, an inaccurate projection)… and your sister is wrong as well, suggesting that you are like.. your mother. We both projected our mothers into you.. I regret and apologize for it.”. She then asked me to let you know that which I wrote to her and I agreed. Oct 8 I told her that I did and asked her if she wants me to send her a quote of what I posted to you. She said yes, so I sent her the quote of what I sent to you: “I was wrong about her.. inaccurately projected my mother into her, thinking that your sister was histrionic and manipulative. I was wrong. As you shared about her after June 2018, different scenarios, I realized I was wrong.. What a relief to know that she  is not histrionic.. it is clear that she has been trying hard to deal with her own distress without burdening you.. it became clear to me that you too  inaccurately projected what is not true. It is your mother that instilled in you the idea/ role that you have to take care of her, to get her to be social and so forth. Your care- taker family role was given to you by your mother, not by your sister… On your part, watch that roar so it is not expressed against her. Always remove yourself from an interaction with her (take a time out) when you feel triggered.”

    Your sister then thanked me very much for that post above, but asked me to add to it (send you another post, that is) that she is going through something huge (the NC) and that you should respect it. I agreed. Oct 15 I wrote to your sister regarding her latest request: “I expressed to your sister the part I told you that I  will days ago. I wrote to her that I think it is a good idea that she expresses to you (if she hasn’t so far) that she is proud of you for the NC choice that you make, for this huge step  in your healing, that she respects you for making this huge step”.

    Later I wrote to her: “You and your sister are two precious individuals who had the misfortune of being born to a mother-from-hell, stating it in a simple way. Of course, the relationship between two siblings from this background is not going to be smooth. The two of you separately did NC.. Next step  is to create a ‘New and improved’ (part of the title of your thread) relationship between the two of you.. It is not and will not be easy to any one of you… For the relationship to continue to improve- and to not regress- the two of you have to practice empathy for each other and to not accept mistreatment. The rules that you sent her are all reasonable. What you need to see during the trip is that she is trying hard, that when she forgets this or that rule (and she will),that what follows is she correcting herself. Same with whatever rules she sends you- if they are reasonable- see to  it that you try and if and when you forget- correct yourself… The aim of this vacation is to have fun and relax. The aim of the ground rules is to increase the chances that this happens… Soak in the sun and let the sun relax those over-worked brains of yours (yours and hers).”

    — Back  to now (I am exhausted!):

    1. No, there was no intervention planned. (I did not suffer a stroke, good thing).

    2. It is very important to get to know a person not through a third person’s account but by personally witnessing and interacting with a person, first hand. What happened is that you shared a lot about your sister after I no longer interacted with her, and according to your accounts she was acting fine and dandy, she was attending therapy, doing better, not bombarding you with stuff, and being very considerate of you. So I assumed she was.. well, fine and dandy and not  whom I thought she was. Time has passed since my communication with her, I read your stories, positive stories and well.. I took a leave of absence from my first hand experience with her and believed a second hand account. According to your accounts, she was not acting histrionically, nothing like my mother. I figured I inaccurately projected my mother into her.

    3. There are elements that you did indeed inaccurately projected into her, I think the social care taking role of her is such a thing, something your mother gave you, not your sister, just like I wrote to her. Also, there were times that you mistreated her, of  course.

    4. Your sister doesn’t want rules, she doesn’t want boundaries.

    5. She doesn’t want help if the help offered her includes her re-evaluating her thinking and behavior. She will not consider that her thinking may be distorted or that her behavior may be dysfunctional. The help she will accept from you  or anyone else must not include any suggestion that her thinking is distorted or that her behavior is dysfunctional. This is the hallmark of personality disorders. No one enjoys considering these things, it is uncomfortable for all, but for your sister and people with severe personality disorders, such consideration is so distressful that they reject it automatically and vehemently and attack the person suggesting any such thing.

    She will attack anyone who will challenge her distorted thinking and dysfunctional behavior. In other words, she will attack anyone who threatens her mental illness, in practice. In yet other words, she will attack anyone who sincerely and competently try to help her.

    6. I was so smitten by your sister, my goodness, I saw her in the best possible way Oct last year. For a while there I didn’t see her as she was.

    –Enough for now. Take your time with this.

    anita

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #332891
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I just read your earlier 10:23 post. I love it. It makes my exhaustion this morning worthwhile!

    Comment, regarding your role helping her (spending your time, energy, money etc.), yes, of course she encouraged that, of course she did, taking advantage of you this way. Regarding helping her socially, that would be, seeing that she has friends and company, I don’t know about it. Maybe. There are so many factors to the relationship I can’t be exact about everything, every aspect of it. But at this time I am sure about  the main elements of it.

    Which brings me to something I made a note of yesterday, remember I wrote to you a long time ago that  all that you did for your mother was in vain, and you  were moved by that statement I made, all in vain, remember?

    Same thing with your sister, all  was in  vain, all that you ever did for her and all that you will ever do  for her will be in vain. At the end of the day, at the end of let’s say 40 years of trying to help her, she will tell you what she already told you: “well that’s on you, no one is asking for your help”.

    All in vain. Don’t throw more of your and your husband time, energy, money and health down the drain.

    anita

    #333171
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    hello and good afternoon! I just read your posts and wow what a walk down memory lane. Well your work was well worth it, believe me. Seriously!  As I was reading all of it I realized many things. I will organize these thoughts when I have a bit of time. I will respond to you tomorrow morning. For the rest of the day I am out dealing with some east coast west coast decisions! Ahhh! All will be settled soon ! And all will be fine! To health and inner circle without those that drag us!

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by Cali Chica.
    #333189
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    “To health and inner circle without those that drag us!”- I agree, concur, I high-five it. Have a good rest of Monday and looking forward to the next time you post!

    anita

    #333499
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Sorry for the delay in reply. Just got home but was going to write to you now. If you’re at the computer let me know, I assume that you are away spending great time with your husband and  perhaps on your walk. Regardless In my next post I’m going to gather my thoughts and respond to what we have been corresponding about

    #333501
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Cali Chica:

    I am at the computer. Guess what… I fell yesterday during my walk, slipped  on thin ice, I know we stated no falls this winter, but I failed and fell, or fell and failed. Anyway, bruised chest muscles, little sleep last night, and obviously Tylenol doesn’t go with red wine, which is probably why I lost consciousness at night, in the bathroom, falling there.. again.

    Other than that  I am fine, walked four miles just now on the treadmill, some pain but.. I don’t think I will ever walk again when there is any ice at all on the road.

    I am now ready for your post, available.

    anita

    #333503
    Cali Chica
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    first and foremost what happened with Tylenol and red wine? Details please!!! I am concerned about the bathroom fall aspect. Well – I just had a nice glass of Pinot noir before arriving home. By myself in a nice cafe. Oh it was splendid!

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