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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • #430357
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    The factors that affected you will not be the same factors that affect me, and therefore the solutions you suggest won’t work in certain situations

    The funny thing is that regardless of where we were born, and in what circumstances, every child needs the same to be happy and healthy. The basic needs of a child are to be loved, appreciated, seen, validated, supported and encouraged by their parents of primary caregivers. These needs are like sunshine, water and soil for a plant to thrive. Without them, we will wither. Maybe not physically, but emotionally for sure.

    Unfortunately you had very few of those needs met. And that’s why your inner child is hurting and still wants to have those needs met.

    Some of those needs were met by B, and that’s probably one of the reasons you grew so attached to her. This is what you said about B:

    she tried her best with my emotional needs as well, I just didn’t think of listing them which is why I said etc. She tries to motivate me whenever the stress of medicine gets to me. She even supported my music development, computer engineering projects etc.

    So she encouraged you to do what you love…. whereas your parents discouraged you:

    They have never listened to me. Always discouraging me from what I wanted to do. Even this med career was their fault. I never wanted this. I wanted to do music or computers.

    Being encouraged meant a lot to you (it means a lot to everyone!). It also includes being seen for who you are, appreciated for who you are as a person, not trying to change you. You spoke more about it here:

    I was never offered a chance to show my real personality to anyone, so they all pushed me away. The one person who didn’t push me away was B.

    She saw you and accepted you for who you are. She didn’t reject you, like your parents did. You felt seen and accepted by her, haven’t you?

    She is the first person to have ever loved me. … She was the only person who treated me like I meant something,

    She was the opposite from your parents in some aspects, and it felt so good to you (and your inner child). You felt loved when she treated you like that. So loved that you were willing to disregard all the hurt she caused you by having sex (or sexting) with other men after each of your (very frequent) fights.

    I know I am repeating myself, but I’ll say it once again: I think that she might be using sex (or sexual behavior, such as sexting) as an emotion regulation strategy, as a coping mechanism, when she feels bad about herself. That’s why I suggested it might be like an addiction, because she kept doing it, even if she promised she wouldn’t. I believe the only way for her to really stop is to a) admit she has a problem, and b) starts working in it in therapy.

    You are still deliberating whether to give her another chance, because to paraphrase you, “everybody deserves another chance”, “things are complex”, “I need to consider all factors” etc etc. Well, you already gave her plenty of chances, and as I’ve explained above, people with addiction/compulsion cannot change unless they truly heal and transform from within. Which she hasn’t done, and she cannot do without a serious dedication on her part and professional help. You explaining to her why it is wrong, or begging her not to do it, won’t cut it.

    Anyway, as I said above, I think the real reason why you can’t let her go is because she was meeting some of your unmet childhood needs (such as the need for acceptance and validation).

    And it felt so good, to the point that you thought she was “wife material”, completely disregarding the entire range of very un-wifey behaviors, such as lying to you, sleeping with other men, sexting etc.

    But your reaction is not strange. In fact, this is what typically happens when we have unmet childhood needs, because we then blindly stick to the person who gives us even a fraction of what we needed as a child. Even if they are abusing us in other ways.

    She was a mix of positive and negative (quite negative, I should say), but you were tempted to endure the negative, just so you could have the positive.

    Your inner child wants her (the positive aspects of her), and then your rational mind is trying to find excuses why you should give her another chance. These rationalizations are driven by your inner child – by your emotional hunger – not by any sound logic.

    This is why it’s important that we meet our unmet emotional needs from childhood – because they are like hungry wolves, howling and wanting, even if it goes against our own well-being. Mind you, those needs are legitimate, but they need to be met by proper inner work and healing, not by expecting others to meet them for us.

    You said one of your subjects is psychology. There is a great video by a licensed therapist Kati Morton, who is talking about those unmet needs. It’s on youtube, titled 10 things you parents should have provided. It’s worth watching…

     

    #430358
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy:

    I am the one adding the boldface & italic feature selectively to the quotes in this post): “My father is a pro in speaking the truth in such a logical way that he is able to prove everyone wrong. It is not mere convincing, he is able to use evidence and logic in such a clear form that you cannot argue with logic... he is actually PROVING that his stance is right. If it was mere persuasion, people would still be able to argue with him. But he shuts everyone up with pure logic. It’s like he can PROVE that 2+2=4 instead of 5 and nobody will go against it cause they know he is right

    “The inconsistencies occur because the lifestyle I grew up in is more complex… too complex for me to explain… I am able to argue back against the advice given because… I expected solutions that I have not already thought of but I keep getting answers that I am already aware of“-

    – are you aware of the topic of the use of logic vs the abuse of logic? Here is one book that addresses this topic: “How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic“. Here is another, “Crimes Against Logic..“, and another, “The Thinker’s Guide to Fallacies: The Art of Mental Trickery and Manipulation“.

    From the third: “The word ‘fallacy’ derives from two Latin words, fallax (‘deceptive’) and fallere (‘to deceive’). This is an important concept in human life because much human thinking deceives itself while deceiving others. The human mind has no natural guide to the truth, nor does it naturally love the truth. What the human mind loves is itself, what serves it, what flatters it, what gives it what it wants, and what strikes down and destroys whatever ‘threatens’ it… When we look closely at human decisions and human behavior, we can easily see that what counts in human life is not who is right, but who is winning. Those who possess power in the form of wealth, property, and weaponry are those who decide what truths will be trumpeted around the world and what truths will be ridiculed, silenced, or suppressed

    “The human mind… achieves insights and fabricates prejudices. Both useful truths and harmful misconceptions are its intermixed products. It can as easily believe what is false as what is true… It can love and hate. It can be kind and cruel. It can advance knowledge or error. It can be intellectually humble or intellectually arrogant. It can be empathic or narrow-minded. It can be open or closed. It can achieve a permanent state of expanding knowledge or a deadening state of narrowing ignorance… How can humans create within their own minds such an inconsistent amalgam of the rational and the irrational? The answer is self-deception. In fact, perhaps the most accurate and useful definition of humans is that of
    ‘the self-deceiving animal.’… Every culture and society sees itself as special and as justified in all of its basic beliefs and practices…

    “It is not possible to create an exclusive and exhaustive list of fallacies… It is common for people (in their thinking) to: … fail to notice contradictions... use only the information that supports their view… fail to notice their assumptions.. lack insight into their prejudices…”-

    – fascinating, isn’t it?

    anita

    #430390
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    I have already agreed with what you have said Tee, every child deserves to be loved and cared for and me lacking those feelings made me seek the same comfort in other people.

    B told me that my parents and I ruined her life, that she entertained the other men and slept with the guy cause she liked the feeling of not being discriminated against. I had already told her that whether I date/marry her or not is not dependent on what my parents believe, but I did tell her my parents’ general opinion on women, to which she was offended, which was why she broke up in January, leading to everything else. Everyday it is feeling more and more like I am the real problem. Maybe it is me after all. She had told me not to tell my only other close friend that we broke up, but in a weak emotional moment, I told him that we were fighting. She found out and she told me that I lied to her and made her look like a fool. She also said that if I am able to hide her from my parents for two years, then I can also hide a “bitch” from her too (implying that I would cheat).

    She said that out of all the fights that we had, the only major one was the one where she cheated, and the one now. That all our other fights were minor and we only broke up now cause of me not being able to forgive.

    The times when I was the problem were 3 times, the first one where one of my crushes from high school (who is a family friend so we still talk) asked me about how college life was and whether I cook and stuff and I told her that I cook simple meals like pasta and noodles and she told me that I should cook for her one day. I obviously declined that offer. B saw those messages and couple days later asked me about what I would do if a female asked me to cook for her. And my stupid self completely forgot about the conversation with the girl as I had decided to keep her out of my life by deleting everything related to her (including that conversation). B took offense to that and assumed I was lying and the guilt over the misunderstanding made me suggest a break up, which further infuriated her. Though we did not actually break up then, the tension indicated that we were extremely close to breaking up.

    The second time was when she asked me what my type was and I described the type of woman my parents wanted me to marry instead of the type of woman that I wanted, and she was offended because the type of woman that my parents wanted was nothing like her (she still holds on to what I said then despite clearing the misunderstanding). She cried for the night and the guilt from hearing her cry made me want to leave her to remove myself out of her life so that she is not burdened by nor feel pain cause of me, which further infuriated her. We did not break up here either but the tension was still high because I had still made the decision to break up.

    The third time was last night regarding my friend, who I told that B and I are fighting, despite her telling me not to tell anyone. And she said I made her look like a fool and that a liar like me can easily cheat on her, despite the fact that she was the one who actually cheated.

    The fact that she said that I ruined her life, that I would cheat (despite how loyal I was to her), the fact that she liked how she felt with other men unlike me, all hurt me. Each day she would come back saying that those things were only said out of her anger, which I understood cause in my anger I had called her names, but these names included terms like selfish, narrow minded, brick wall (cause she is stubborn and refuses to listen when I explain) but then recently when she crossed the line too far, in my anger I said that she was a whore (because she was paid to have sex with the man in January), and I also used terms such as bitch as well. This is the first time I went that far in my name calling but I said it out of anger too and I regret calling her those things.

    I also had given an example in one of our arguments that if she had crumbled paper in one hand and a clean plain paper on the other, which one would she use to write on, but she assumed that I was implying that she is flawed cause of the men she has slept with (despite telling her that I had forgiven her for her past, but I cannot forgive the one where she slept with another man while supposedly being in love with me. The correct meaning of the example I was trying to point out was to show that I would rather choose someone with less trauma (because she would also cause less trauma), who causes less problems, less arguments, less wrinkles as I write our story instead of someone who has a lot of trauma (which would make her cause more trauma), who causes more problems, more arguments, more wrinkles. But she was offended and hated me for using that example.

    Now she is saying that she is only embarrassing herself because she is the only one trying in this relationship and that I am stubborn and refuses to acknowledge that she is trying to change. She said that we broke up over a small reason cause I was always planning to leave her. That is false because when we broke up, we were already fighting about me not being able to give her some time out of my day cause of my studying for exams and when I finally gave her the time, she said that I would rather spend time with my gaming than with her, which pissed me off because she just showed that she was blind to everything that I have been doing for her and I felt there is no point in us having this relationship if that is what she thought of me. Though this would have been one of our normal break ups, the things she did after the break up convinced me to make it permanent: her going to a concert with her girlfriends right after the break up to party (which she knows I am not a fan of cause she gets hit on by men a lot, which is exactly what happened at the concert by a music artist), her going to a resort several hours away to be with her guy friend, hugging her guy friend and his friend too close, her wearing a bikini/revealing outfit (while with her guy friend) and posting it despite knowing that I hated it, going to the beach in another revealing outfit, combined with more arguments with her constantly blaming me for breaking up with her over a “stupid reason”, despite telling her about her mistakes. Each argument was so draining for me that it kept reinforcing my decision to not date her again. She also kept accusing me and my parents of being racists and ruining her life and self esteem etc by discriminating against her cause of her skin tone despite explaining to her countless times that the race is not the issue, it is the influence of the modern society because wicked women exists in all races. Fighting with her is mentally and emotionally draining but a part of me still cares about her. I know that I am an asshole but I thought I tried my best….

    All of this just kept feeding my core belief that everyone would be better off without me, and that I am better off being alone.

    You said that her compulsion cannot change unless she truly heals and transforms, which I told her and she asked me why I had to break up, why not just give space to each other until she is fully healed, which means she wants us to remain a couple in public but she would not bother me until she is fully healed, after which I could give her another chance to prove her worth. I told her that we are still breaking up but what she said recreated the doubt in my heart whether to give her another chance or not.

    My inner child wants her, doesn’t that mean that what my inner child wants is not always necessarily what it needs or necessarily right? So how do I differentiate between what is good for it and what is bad for it?

    Thank you for the video suggestion, I will look into it.

    Paradoxy.

     

    #430392
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    You are suggesting that the truth/logic can be manipulated and that is very true, but not all truths/logic can be manipulated and deceive us. No one can manipulate certain things such as the fact that 2+2 =4 or the procedure to handle or fix a piece of machinery etc. I am speaking from watching my father do it. I know that my father is a stubborn man who doesn’t factor in emotions to his decisions, but so far his decisions have been proven to be beneficial for everyone, even if it utilizes manipulated logic. That is why he is held in high regard by everyone he has interacted with, even his own boss. He was the one who figured out that my aunt was cheating on my uncle, with the small amount of interaction he had with her. He has been the one correcting a lot of people’s stupid decisions before they cause more problems. Everything you have said is true in general terms, but I have to speak on the specific terms as it relates to my father. He just cannot understand emotions, which is why he considers it in low regard and prefers to stick to just pure logic which is why he is stubborn and refuses to acknowledge he is wrong in his decisions regarding situations that involve emotions.

    Paradoxy

    #430399
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy:

    A couple of days ago, you wrote: ” I am able to argue back against the advice given because… I expected solutions that I have not already thought of but I keep getting answers that I am already aware of“-

    -in your 4-page thread,  in about ten posts (some of them very long), I did my very best to offer you answers and solutions to consider, such that maybe you were not aware of. But seems like you are aware of everything.

    Sincerely, I have nothing else to add.  Everything I had to offer, I already did, and you are welcome to re-read it if you’d like.  All I can do at this time, as I leave your thread, is to wish you the best, as well as to the people in your life.

    anita

     

    #430405
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    I appreciate all the advice you gave me. I am sorry if I sound like a spoiled brat, that was not my intention. You did open my eyes to certain things, and helped me organize my thoughts to be more confident in my decision. I wish you the best in life too. Thank you.

    Paradoxy

    #430409
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    as I am thinking about your situation, two main things come to mind. One is that she is accusing you, unfairly, of making her prostitute herself, and “ruining her self-esteem”.

    She told you that she was heart-broken after you asked her if she was a gold-digger, and this made her sleep with a married man for money.

    B also told me that she was heart broken and in pain cause of the break up, saying she felt abandoned by me

    I’ve explained to you why this is bs, because no heartbreak can cause a normal person to humiliate themselves like that, unless they are traumatized and broken inside to begin with. Her reaction to your offense was disproportionate, and there is no way that a normal person would do what she did. She is blaming you and guilt-tripping you for something she should take responsibility for.

    She is also blaming you (and your parents) that you ruined her self-esteem:

    She also kept accusing me and my parents of being racists and ruining her life and self esteem etc by discriminating against her cause of her skin tone

    First, nobody forces her to stay with you. She is the one begging for a second chance. If she believes you are ruining her life, she is free to go.

    And second, at the age of 24, she is an adult, she either has self-esteem, or she doesn’t. And you can’t ruin it for her. Based on how she behaves, it seems that her self-esteem has already been ruined in her childhood and youth. That’s why she could sleep with a guy for money. That’s why she sees herself as a sex object and craves male attention. So again, it is very unfair to blame you for her lack of self-esteem or for “ruining her life”.

    To summarize, B is blaming you and guilt-tripping you for something that is NOT you fault. She has wounds and self-esteem issues that predate you, but instead of admitting it and taking responsibility for it, she found someone to blame: you. She keeps transgressing (to use a Bible term), but instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she keeps blaming you. Very unfair. And abusive.

    She is abusing you in two ways: one is by her hurtful actions, such an lying, cheating, sexually explicit behavior etc. And the other is by BLAMING you for it. So she is hurting you twice.

    Another problem, which makes your conflicts more explosive, is your attitude towards women, which you adopted from your father, and which frankly is misogynist. It would hurt every woman to tell her that “most women are gold-diggers”. Or “women do stupid things, and it’s normal for them.” It is very offensive.

    However, I don’t want to put the stress on that right now. That’s another topic. What I want to emphasize right now is that B is abusing you, not only by her actions, but by unjustly blaming you for those actions.

    Can you see that?

     

    #430410
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    another thing: she is falsely accusing you of lying and wanting to cheat on her – whereas she is the one who actually did those things to you. She was hiding from you that her ex was her housemate, she was lying that it wasn’t him on that half-naked picture, and she was hiding from you for an entire year that she slept with another man.

    Those are some pretty major lies and deceptions. But now, she is accusing you of telling your close friend that you two broke up, which she asked you not to:

    She had told me not to tell my only other close friend that we broke up, but in a weak emotional moment, I told him that we were fighting. She found out and she told me that I lied to her and made her look like a fool. She also said that if I am able to hide her from my parents for two years, then I can also hide a “bitch” from her too (implying that I would cheat).

    Your “lie” was a small one, and it’s wasn’t a lie, it was telling the truth to a close friend. And it wasn’t some horrible, embarrassing secret that she asked you to keep, but simply the fact that you two broke up. Nobody was hurt by that admission, except maybe her ego, who for some reason wanted to keep it a secret.

    But then she had the audacity to assume that based on that minor “lie”, you would probably also cheat on her and hide a “bitch” from her – the things that she actually already did to you. She cheated on you and was hiding her ex in her house! Talking about not seeing a log in her own eye…

    So, Paradoxy, it is becoming very clear to me that this girl is a serious guilt-tripper and manipulator. She is hammering you with her false accusations until you start feeling that you are the real problem:

    Everyday it is feeling more and more like I am the real problem. Maybe it is me after all.

    Her accusations are confirming the false core belief that you have about yourself: that you cause other people pain.

    This is what you’ve learned from your parents, who too were false accusing you of being a problem, when you were simply a child who needed love and compassion, like all children do.

    You were falsely accused and emotionally abused by your parents. And now you are being falsely accused and abused by her as well.

     

    #430411
    Roberta
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy

    She had told me not to tell my only other close friend that we broke up,

    She made a demand to you, that you legitimately chose not to comply with. You were not lying, but the opposite you spoke the truth to your close friend.  If a bully told you to jump of a bridge, would you beat yourself up for not complying?

    Finding good healthy truths in your life are important, they will help protect you from being coerced & manipulated in future situations.

     

    #430498
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    I asked B recently why she did what she did and she told me that when we broke up, she was heart broken and felt abandoned and in that moment, she felt that the only person who cared for her was her aunt. So she decided to just do what her aunt told her to do, because she was under the impression that only her aunt cared for her. So heart break just became a catalyst for what happened, and her aunt was waiting for the opportunity like a predator waiting to pounce on their prey and B fell right into her trap.

    But despite that, it is still bs like you said cause she went with the man 3 times out of which she slept with him twice, with multiple opportunites where she could have gotten herself out of the situation, but she did not take those opportunities because she thought that she would get in trouble with her aunt as she is in a whole different country with no other place to stay. She is also claiming to take responsibility while also blaming me for my role in what happened.

    Nobody forced her to stay with me, but she said she felt the need for my validation. Like some psychological validation that she was worth it. Similar to how some girls who are popular with men gets their pride hurt when they find a man not interested in them, so they annoy the guy until they receive his validation.

    She may be 24, but I am starting to think that she is a child trapped in an adult’s body. Its like her brain resets every 5 minutes and everything I tell her just goes over the head. You can literally feel the words going in one ear and her processing it for a second and then leaving the other ear. Like she just threw common sense out the window and she has not even realized it. Thats how dumb it has become. And I think she is behaving like a 5 year old because she did not get the love she deserved from her own parents and family members. The lack of proper guidance prevents her from knowing how to act in certain situations, therefore resulting in the current drama. So can you really be mad at a 5 year old? I know I sound like I am making excuses but I would like to view the situation from as many angles as possible.

    And she said that she was not aware that the money was coming from the man until the man came to get her. But she could have rejected the man and told him that she would pay him back. It is not like the man could rape her cause then he would have no other option but to kill her, which he cannot do cause too many people are involved in the situation. But even if she got raped, I would have been able to forgive her cause then it would be against her consent, and therefore she would not have a choice. But the reality is that she did have a choice, she just chose wrong. And I don’t see her craving men’s attention, she just naturally gets the attention cause that is how physically attractive she is, so I don’t see any craving. She is fine with staying at home minding her own business if that is all she had to do. But she did say that all her dress ups were for herself  (including the bikini outfit), which I think is bs cause no woman dresses up in a fancy outfit just for themself. And another excuse she had for the bikini incident is that she was in her bikini early morning when everyone was asleep, which is so stupid cause she is literally at a resort, she cannot possibly assume that everyone would be asleep. This level of stupidity makes me wonder whether she is actually 24 or actually 5.

    She also said that she said all those things about me ruining her life and etc cause she misunderstood and she was just angry and she asked me to forgive her for what she said in anger, so should I? It still doesn’t change the fact that she felt that way cause of me, despite the fact that I have explained myself countless times.

    “She has wounds and self-esteem issues that predate you, but instead of admitting it and taking responsibility for it, she found someone to blame: you.” The funny thing is that she admits her mistake one moment, and then blames me again, then goes back to apologizing for her mistake and then comes right back to blaming me again. It is a continuous cycle of her apologizing and blaming me. I think she just wants me to be blamed for my role in causing her mistake, even if she takes responsibility for actually doing the mistake. So she takes responsibility over her actions AND blames me for causing her to do these actions.

    Regarding my attitude towards women, you clearly did not read what I said the last time we had this conversaion. I see women as persons that should be respected and loved and cared for and treated like queens. I have no other attitude towards women. What I do have is a stereotype that was created by observing real life situations of some women’s behavior to their own partner, not just something my father taught me. My father AND mother just supported the stereotype by advising me that cruel women existed, and most of them are women that are heavily influenced by modern society. It wouldn’t make sense if a woman was hurt by me simply saying that there are a lot of gold diggers out there. It would only make sense for the woman to be hurt if I said “You are a gold digger” because that is a direct insult. But of course there are the type who overthink too much and misunderstand what I am saying. We live in a society where divorce over stupid reasons is normalized; A society where men are constantly afraid of who they marry due to the possibility of losing half their wealth. Besides, can it really be considered misogynistic if there is actual evidence that proves the misogynistic theories to be true?

    I do see what you are saying and I totally agree with you, and I have already made the final decision but it is just difficult to cut off the part of me that still cares.

    “She is falsely accusing you of lying and wanting to cheat on her” B accused me of lying because I told her that I did not tell my friend that we were fighting, but I actually did tell him. But that doesn’t change the fact that her behavior and her lying is 1000x worse than my one lie. I also think that she came to the conclusion of the possibility of me cheating cause of that one interaction with my crush from high school which I forgot to tell her about, which she assumes to be a lie too. But like I said, she claims to have said what she said in anger, just like I have called her rude names in anger too, so should I really not forgive her for her false accusations?

    I believe that she did not want me to tell my friend that we broke up because she knows that my friend will ask for the reason behind the break up and she doesn’t want my friend to know what she did. So the reason behind the break up is the horrible embarrassing secret that she wanted to hide, and not the break up itself.

    I am pretty sure she is well aware of how stupid her accusations are. But in her moment of anger, she forgot all the things she did and only focused on what I did. So she knows that she has a log in her eye, she just chose to ignore it.

    I know that she is a guilt-tripper and manipulator, but it is like she doesn’t even realize she is doing it. It is like a 5 year old crying and throwing tantrums and pouting and showing glassy eyes to get what the child wants, and you just feel so sorry for the child that you just feel the temptation to give in to what the child wants. I think I actually just spoiled her by forgiving her so many times already.

    Everything else you said is true. I will just have to work on fixing it. There is a saying, that you should not go to the market when you are hungry because you will just buy the wrong things. Maybe I just picked the wrong person out of my own desperation for a friend.

    Paradoxy

    #430499
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Roberta,

    Yes she made a demand which I AGREED TO. The fact that I agreed with her demand makes my decision not to comply sound like I lied to her. So the technicality of the issue makes me look like I betrayed her and lied to her. I am not beating myself up because I told the truth to my friend. I am beating myself up because I had AGREED to her that I wouldn’t tell anyone but I still told my friend.

    Is it really manipulation if you already know you are being manipulated but you still choose to go along with it? B was being manipulated by her aunt into sleeping with the man, but she was aware that it would be wrong to sleep with the man but she still did it. So does the fact that she was being manipulated justify her actions?

    In the story of the Boy who cried wolf, if the people had just given him the benefit of doubt despite knowing he is probably lying, he would have probably survived, but in the end who had to experience the loss? The boy and his parents. Just in case I am wrong. Just in case she really did change. As naive as I am, I really wish I could take that chance.

    Paradoxy

    #430516
    Roberta
    Participant

    Hi Paradoxy

    I guess when someone demands something it makes it harder to say no in the moment.  I remember I saw a friend in the street loading her car up with empty wine bottles to take to the recycling and she said “don’t tell anyone” – shes an alcoholic. My reply was I don’t do secrets as that just adds a level of fear to the problem.

    Yes has had a very different upbringing, where ethical standards were definitely not the norm. I do not know if she can or will  make the decision to permanently change the way she is living her life.

    I hope that you find an uncomplicated person to share your life with.

    #430528
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    I asked B recently why she did what she did and she told me that when we broke up, she was heart broken and felt abandoned and in that moment, she felt that the only person who cared for her was her aunt. So she decided to just do what her aunt told her to do, because she was under the impression that only her aunt cared for her. So heart break just became a catalyst for what happened, and her aunt was waiting for the opportunity like a predator waiting to pounce on their prey and B fell right into her trap.

    This idea that she was a puppet of her aunt’s is a false one, because she already rejected her aunt’s wishes in the past. Her aunt told her to stop seeing Al, and she didn’t obey, which lead to her stopping contact with her aunt for an entire year:

    She told B to leave Al because she knew Al was not a good man but B, on her own accord, rejected her aunt and decided to stay with him. After which, she stopped talking to aunt 1 for a year.

    She could have similarly rejected her aunt’s wishes in the prostitution case too. But she didn’t. And eventually she even developed feelings for the guy.

     

    So can you really be mad at a 5 year old?

    You should certainly not date a 5-year old…

     

    And I don’t see her craving men’s attention, she just naturally gets the attention cause that is how physically attractive she is, so I don’t see any craving

    She gets the attention, but she also returns the attention, e.g. she started sexting with the classmate of yours who was hitting on her, right after you broke up. She went to the resort to meet her guy friend, right after another breakup of yours. She went to a concert, where the music artist started hitting on her – which means that she made herself quite visible, so the music artist would single her out from the crowd. This all seems like someone who is very much craving and seeking male attention, not only passively receiving it.

    She is fine with staying at home minding her own business if that is all she had to do.

    Is she really? Because after your most recent breakup, she didn’t stay at home, but immediately went to party with her girlfriends, and then she went to a resort to be with her guy friend, and then she went to the beach:

    her going to a concert with her girlfriends right after the break up to party (which she knows I am not a fan of cause she gets hit on by men a lot, which is exactly what happened at the concert by a music artist), her going to a resort several hours away to be with her guy friend, hugging her guy friend and his friend too close, her wearing a bikini/revealing outfit (while with her guy friend) and posting it despite knowing that I hated it, going to the beach in another revealing outfit,

    But she did say that all her dress ups were for herself  (including the bikini outfit), which I think is bs cause no woman dresses up in a fancy outfit just for themselves.

    If it were for herself, she wouldn’t have put it on social media.

    And another excuse she had for the bikini incident is that she was in her bikini early morning when everyone was asleep, which is so stupid cause she is literally at a resort, she cannot possibly assume that everyone would be asleep.

    Paradoxy, you are forgetting that she went to the resort with the goal to meet her guy friend. She didn’t go there to have a swim early in the morning while no one is around. She went to meet him. And she did. And they took a photo. And she posted it on social media. Her true intentions are very clear and transparent, but she is trying to muddle the waters with her ridiculous excuses. She is trying to make a fool of you, Paradoxy.

    She also said that she said all those things about me ruining her life and etc cause she misunderstood and she was just angry and she asked me to forgive her for what she said in anger, so should I?

    Please look up the term “the abuse cycle”: it is when the abuser is trying to convince their victim to stay in the relationship, by promising they would change and claiming they didn’t mean what they said, and that they are sorry. The victim agrees and the relationship gets better for a short while, but then the abuse starts again. The abuser never really changes. All those are empty promises.

    You said she never listens to you:

    Its like her brain resets every 5 minutes and everything I tell her just goes over the head. You can literally feel the words going in one ear and her processing it for a second and then leaving the other ear.

    You have been trying to explain to her why her behavior is hurting you, why it is wrong, but she doesn’t even want to hear it. To me this is a sign that she doesn’t want to change. She isn’t interested in hearing how she is hurting you. She is only interested in continuing the status quo.

    she admits her mistake one moment, and then blames me again, then goes back to apologizing apologizing and blaming me. I think she just wants me to be blamed for my role in causing her mistake, even if she takes responsibility for actually doing the mistake. So she takes responsibility over her actions AND blames me for causing her to do these actions.

    No, she doesn’t take responsibility for her actions. She is blaming you. She only admits that she did the deed (e.g. sleep with someone for money). But she is blaming you for it.

     

    But that doesn’t change the fact that her behavior and her lying is 1000x worse than my one lie.

    Yes, and your lie wasn’t a lie really. It was a promise to her not to tell the truth to anybody, even to your close friend. So she actually asked you to lie. And you didn’t oblige.

    So the technicality of the issue makes me look like I betrayed her and lied to her.

    Don’t get caught up on technicalities. Look at the bigger picture. As you yourself said, she is treating you 1000 times worse than you treat her. She is pointing out at the speck in your eye (your inability to hide the truth from your close friend, or you getting angry and calling her names), whereas she refuses to see a massive log in her own eye.

    But like I said, she claims to have said what she said in anger, just like I have called her rude names in anger too, so should I really not forgive her for her false accusations?

    No, you shouldn’t, because she will be “angry” again and will accuse you unjustly again (as it happens in the abuse cycle). And she is still accusing you for the fact that she cheated and prostituted herself. She took no responsibility for it – she is blaming either you or her aunt. But she herself took no responsibility.

    I know that she is a guilt-tripper and manipulator, but it is like she doesn’t even realize she is doing it. It is like a 5 year old crying and throwing tantrums and pouting and showing glassy eyes to get what the child wants, and you just feel so sorry for the child that you just feel the temptation to give in to what the child wants.

    As I said, better not have a relationship with a 5-year old…

    You know what one of the key features of a toxic person is? They never take responsibility for their actions and always blame others. You can say that she is a like a 5-year old, or you can say that she is a toxic person. Regardless of how you choose to view it, she is not someone you want be in a relationship with.

    There is a saying, that you should not go to the market when you are hungry because you will just buy the wrong things. Maybe I just picked the wrong person out of my own desperation for a friend.

    A very good and apt saying. Yes, she seemed supportive of your interests and hobbies (and maybe she really is), but otherwise her behavior is very toxic. As I said before, she is hurting you twice: first by her actions (cheating/acting out sexually), and then by blaming you for those actions.

    Perhaps a part of the attraction you feel for her is not only that she is supportive of your hobbies and interests, but also that she is very stubborn and doesn’t want to listen to you – just like your parents wouldn’t listen to you.

    So perhaps there is an urge in you to get your parents to listen and understand your needs, by proxy: by trying to get her to listen and understand your needs. Which she clearly doesn’t want to…

     

    #430544
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    “This idea that she was a puppet of her aunt’s is a false one” I still think there was a degree of manipulation though because she continued to date Al cause there was no negative emotion or anything making her vulnerable at the time, but in my case, the heartbreak made her vulnerable to the manipulation. I think B still made her own decision but it was heavily influenced by her aunt. You cannot compare Al’s situation with this one because Al’s situation happened in the country where most of her family is and there was always someone who will care for her (her dad at least) but in the incident in January, B was in a whole different country where the only family available to her was her aunt, who had the responsibility of getting her plane tickets and providing her a home and food etc. So knowing that there was no one else to turn to other than her aunt would probably be a factor in her decision to obey her aunt. Besides, she also told me that she did not want to tell her dad or anyone else because she felt embarrassed by what was happening because she had been telling people that the money came from the aunt but later she found out the money came from a man who wanted to sleep with her. Her pride got in the way of her decision making. But yes, I have told her that she had the power to say no to her aunt cause her aunt wouldn’t be able to force her into doing anything so in the end it was her own decision to go with the man but the Aunt set up the whole ordeal and influenced her decision making. And she said that she started to like the guy because he did not discriminate her like my parents and I did (which was a misunderstanding that I corrected after like a 100 arguments).

    “You should certainly not date a 5-year old…” Yea, I was naive enough to believe that if I loved her enough, I could teach her to act like a mature woman.

     “She gets the attention, but she also returns the attention” She didn’t go to the guy and start sexting him. The guy came to her to sext and she just entertained the things he said. The concert and her plan to visit her guy friend were always planned cause she had already informed me about being invited by her girlfriends to go the concert and the guy friend was visiting from Spain after several years and it was the first time in a while he came to visit. I had no problem with her going to these places, the real problem was how she would behave at these places. And she proved me fears to be correct. Based on the videos she recorded, it doesn’t seem like she was actively trying to make herself visible, and in the case of her hugging the guy and wearing the bikini, I see pure stupidity cause the pictures she took indicate that she is oblivious to the fact that the guy friend’s friend has his arm around her back ending near the breast region while the bikini incident occurred at around 6 am where she assumed everyone would be asleep, but obviously not cause her guy friend was awake. I also noticed that the outfit that she chose to wear are extremely short, cut jeans while everyone else including the females were wearing long, more modest clothing. I pointed out all of these things and she acknowledged that she was not thinking when she did all of this and apologized for it but idk if I should even consider her apology. The way that she behaves just shows how stupid and oblivious she is. She doesn’t even appear to be intentionally doing it, she is just operating on literally three brain cells, so it is hard to assume that she is craving the attention, she is just an extrovert that likes to party and enjoy life etc.

    Going to the concert and going to the resort were pre-planned things but she had told me that she did not feel like going but our fight as well as pressure from her friends probably convinced her to go to clear her mind from the fighting we were having. She definitely did not tell me the details of her plans though because I was only told that she was going to the concert and visit the friend, which I was fine with but she did not tell me about the things she were going to do at the resort (maybe she was not aware of what her friend’s plans were but idk).

    “If it were for herself, she wouldn’t have put it on social media.” That is exactly what I told her but she said that her status were only available for her girlfriends and me (but she accidentally made it available for my guy friend as well) and she took down the pictures after I told her.

    “She is trying to make a fool of you, Paradoxy.” Tee, if she is trying to fool me, she definitely deserves an oscar award cause that is how perfect her innocent acting is. The fact that she brought her bikini with her proves that she already had planned that she would be going to the beach and etc but the recordings she have shows how oblivious she is to everything around her. If that obliviousness is actually fake, then that girl deserves an oscar for her performance cause that is how convincing it is.

    “Please look up the term “the abuse cycle”: it is when the abuser is trying to convince their victim to stay in the relationship, by promising they would change and claiming they didn’t mean what they said, and that they are sorry” Doesn’t that make me an abuser too? Because I have called her names in anger and apologized to her later, only to repeat it the next time she pissed me off. The only difference is that I did not just call her random insults (except recently with the use of the term bitch, whore (which I already explained), garbage, trash etc), I made sure to use terms that literally described how she was behaving, such as brick wall, stupid, dumb, fool etc.

    “The victim agrees and the relationship gets better for a short while, but then the abuse starts again. The abuser never really changes. All those are empty promises.” Should I take her back just to see if this is true? If she does the same thing again, at least we know that her promises are in fact empty. Sounds stupid but just asking.

    “You have been trying to explain to her why her behavior is hurting you, why it is wrong, but she doesn’t even want to hear it.” She refuses to listen because she is blinded by her emotions. It is like how anger can blind certain people and prevent them from seeing things from a different perspective. Besides, she does apologize for her behavior, only to repeat the same thing again the next day. She told me she did that because she only thought of certain things to say after taking some time to think about what was said in the argument. So she is saying that in the moment, she understood what I was saying, but then when she had time to actually process what was said, she came up with thoughts that countered the things I said, which therefore restarted the argument.

    “She only admits that she did the deed (e.g. sleep with someone for money). But she is blaming you for it.” Fair point. But isn’t admitting the mistake similar to taking responsibility for the mistake?

    “So she actually asked you to lie. And you didn’t oblige.” Yes I know that but isn’t it still wrong since I already agreed to lie for her?

    “And she is still accusing you for the fact that she cheated and prostituted herself. She took no responsibility for it – she is blaming either you or her aunt. But she herself took no responsibility.” Well she takes the blame one moment and then shares the blame with me and her aunt. So it’s like she is taking 50% of the blame and giving 30% to her aunt and 20% to me and my parents. But today she has taken full responsibility for her actions and promised to not bother me anymore but claims to have trust in God that I will come back to her…. I finally told my guy friend the details of what was happening and he suggested that I break up with her and wait and see if she really does change and I should only take her back if the change is visible. So she and I have come to the agreement that we are now broken up and we will no longer talk about the relationship but she is welcome to ask for my help for her work or whenever she needs it.

    I just can’t imagine any other girl caring for me the same way B cared for me. Like which girl would help dealing with dandrives in someone’s hair? Wouldn’t most girls be disgusted by it and not even bother to help? But she willingly offered to help in putting the treatment into my hair and clearing the dandrives by hand. She even cleaned my room in secret because I don’t let her do it cause it just feels wrong. It is just weird because it feels like no other woman would take care of me the way she took care of me. What if I am actually throwing away the perfect person for me because I am blinded by her mistakes? Or maybe I am being naive and stupid because she is my first real girlfriend after all.

    My attraction for her has nothing to do with her stubbornness. I definitely do not want someone who is too high on their horse to acknowledge what is right and what is wrong. Yes I want someone who understands me but I definitely do not want someone who literally drains all the energy out of me before they finally understand me.

    I just wished that she was the right person because I always thought that I would marry the first girl I ever truly fell in love with. Now I feel contaminated by my experience with her and I don’t think any girl would want the remains of what was left by another girl. Now I am back to my sad lonely life.

    Paradoxy

    #430545
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Roberta,

    I just wanted to respect her wishes, and in the moment I felt that private matters should remain private. Besides this is not the first fight/break up we have had so I just assumed that we might just get back together later and I didn’t want to let my friend know that this constant break up and getting back together was a cycle, cause then I would look bad too. But in that weak moment, I told him what I was going through.

    I wish I could find an uncomplicated person like you said, but from the looks of it, most of these girls here are worse than B. I’ve seen how these girls behave, literally no respect for their partners. These girls make B look like she is a perfect angel from heaven. I am not saying that all women are this horrible. I am just saying what I have observed so far and the real life incidents that a lot of people have told me.

    Besides, the girls who are actually worth it, won’t even give me a chance. So I am just stuck with my fate.

    Paradoxy

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