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Should a “Cheating” Girlfriend be forgiven over a technicality?

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  • #430551
    Tee
    Participant

    Hi Paradoxy,

    isn’t admitting the mistake similar to taking responsibility for the mistake?

    No, it’s like saying “Yes, I robbed the bank, but you made me do it.”

    She is blaming you for sleeping with other men, basically.

    She is abusing you and then blaming you for the abuse. It is called victim blaming.

    If that obliviousness is actually fake, then that girl deserves an oscar for her performance cause that is how convincing it is.

    Maybe she should be an actress. And second, if you want to be with someone so “oblivious” and “stupid” (this level of stupidity makes me wonder whether she is actually 24 or actually 5), then go ahead. I don’t want to keep trying to dissuade you, if that’s what you really want.

    I just can’t imagine any other girl caring for me the same way B cared for me. Like which girl would help dealing with dandrives in someone’s hair?

    Well, that’s nice of her to try to help. But you should know that when two people get married, they vow to be there for each other in sickness and in health. It is normal to care for one’s partner if they are sick. However it’s not normal to lie to them and cheat on them.

    But today she has taken full responsibility for her actions and promised to not bother me anymore but claims to have trust in God that I will come back to her….

    So she and I have come to the agreement that we are now broken up and we will no longer talk about the relationship but she is welcome to ask for my help for her work or whenever she needs it.

    Good that you decided to stop going back and forth on it. You said she has finally taken full responsibility for her actions – what exactly did she say?

    My attraction for her has nothing to do with her stubbornness. I definitely do not want someone who is too high on their horse to acknowledge what is right and what is wrong. Yes I want someone who understands me but I definitely do not want someone who literally drains all the energy out of me before they finally understand me.

    But you keep trying to make her understand. For more than a year now, with no success. Until all your energy was drained. And you still want to give her another chance. It seems you really want this stubborn (“oblivious”, according to you) girl to finally listen to you.

    You said something similar about your father: you said he was incapable of understanding your feelings (he is INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING). She too seems incapable of understanding. So I see a pretty big similarity there.

     

    I’ve seen how these girls behave, literally no respect for their partners. These girls make B look like she is a perfect angel from heaven

    How are these other girls worse than B? Because I have a hard time imagining bigger disrespect than cheating on you and then blaming you for it.

    Besides, the girls who are actually worth it, won’t even give me a chance. So I am just stuck with my fate.

    Based on what you said about your online encounters with girls, between ages 15 and 17, you did have some success, but it was either your parents or the girl’s parents who put an end to your online romance. But you concluded – incorrectly – that none of those girls were interested in you. So I am guessing it’s not true now either – that none of the normal, decent girls (which can be found, I guarantee you!) would be interested in you.

     

    #430555
    Roberta
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy

    What an unusual place you live in where the majority of women  in your opinion appear to be either badly behaved or way out of your league.  Are there any quiet calm places like a library that you can hang out, where you stand a better chance of meeting a kind gentle person,that & volunteering where you will meet people who prioritize compassionate actions over the need to use someone to make their shallow lives feel better.

    As for taking B back for just one more time to see if any or all that has been discussed with you on this forum is true. You know deep down that she is like fire and burns you up, & yet you  (ego) are willing to think up any excuse to put your heart back into the inferno.

     

    #430564
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Yea you are right that I should not be dating someone who behaves like she is 5, I just believed that she is only behaving like a 5 year old because no one guided her properly and so I thought I could guide her to behave like a grown woman, but I guess I was wrong.

    “But you should know that when two people get married, they vow to be there for each other in sickness and in health.” Yes that is what we are SUPPOSED to do, but I have not found a single unmarried woman yet who takes that vow seriously. The woman here believes that they will only behave like a wife when they become a wife but they expect men to behave like husbands when they are not even husbands yet. I do admit that men here are horrible too but so are the women. I have not found any female who takes the marriage vow seriously other than B, so far. But maybe I will. My naiveness is probably making me blind since B is my first gf. Most of the women here want men to treat them like queens but they don’t give anything else in return except maybe sex but I am not interested in sex.

    “You said she has finally taken full responsibility for her actions – what exactly did she say?” She said that she will deal with the consequences of her actions, and she has stopped blaming me, but maybe she is still blaming me in her mind and she just chose not to say it directly to me. Maybe she still believes that all of this is my fault but she is not expressing it, so I won’t know. But despite agreeing to the terms, she does occasionally text me saying that she misses me and everything but she stops when I tell her to stop.

    “But you keep trying to make her understand.” I just held out on hope. Finding excuses to convince myself that she would change. But some people cannot change until something really really bad happens. Maybe she didn’t have the motivation to change her ways in the past cause the arguments prior to January were not as complicated as it is now. But now that she knows that I am serious about the break up, maybe she will change.

    “She too seems incapable of understanding.” No she seems to be capable of understanding, she just chooses to ignore the understanding. Like she knows exactly what I am trying to say but her emotions cause her to overthink unnecessarily and misunderstand things too easily. My father is INCAPABLE of understanding. Like it is very obvious that I am wasting my time trying to explain things to him, but to B, she will eventually understand things but it just takes a while for her brain to register.

    “How are these other girls worse than B? Because I have a hard time imagining bigger disrespect than cheating on you and then blaming you for it.” I have told you a few stories already about some women here. But I can give you more stories. There is a girl here who is dating three men at the same time, and none of them know each other. Each man treats her well but as soon as one man leaves for work or something, she has the next man come over. And another thing is that she ensures that she does no service other than sex for the main bf. So far as to make sure that she cooked something for herself and ate it right before her bf came over. She has her man literally starving whenever he comes over or he brings food for her himself.

    The men here are no better either but I noticed that it is actually a cycle. Either a man or woman gets cheated on, and then they proceed to become a cheater in their next relationship and then whoever they cheated on becomes the next cheater and the cycle continues.

    There was another girl, who was dating a rich chinese dude. Whenever he invited her to dinner or something, she would bring her real man claiming that he was just a friend or she would have him buy gifts for her, which she either kept for herself or gave to her real man. Eventually the chinese guy figured it out and he left but still, the audacity of the girl to cheat RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM is crazy.

    “But you concluded – incorrectly – that none of those girls were interested in you” Tee, my first online relationship ended cause of my parents, but when we got back together for a few weeks, she told me she didn’t want to date at all, only for me to find her dating another guy. Then she proceeded to ghost me after finding out the guy was interested in another girl. Even if the first break up was my parents’ fault, she still chose to dump me after we had gotten back together, so doesn’t that mean she was no longer interested in me?

    My second online girlfriend dumped me, went on a date with another guy, then got back together with me. Doesn’t that prove that she was not really interested in me but was actually using/manipulating me?

    My third online girlfriend was fine, but she also ghosted me cause of her parents without informing me of her circumstances first. She could have at least ended it properly so I don’t go waiting for her in vain. Fine, let us assume that her parents completely prevented her from coming in contact with me, but if she really cared, she would have found some kind of way to give me one last goodbye message, like through school computer or through her friends or something. FINE, let us assume she could not do any of that either. I SEARCHED FOR HER EVERYWHERE UNTIL I FINALLY FOUND HER. She could have informed me about her circumstances WHEN I CAME BACK FOR HER! All she said was that her parents forced her to stop contacting me and we proceeded with our relationship but if the circumstances were actually that bad she could have told me that our relationship would not work or at least tell me whether I should wait for her if her parents get involved again. She did none of that, she left me abandoned on my own birthday.

    So tell me, were these girls actually interested in me? Am I incorrectly assuming here? Only the third online gf can be given SOME benefit of doubt even if the evidence is against her. But do you actually think they wanted me? I have girls in my own class telling other people that I am useless and does nothing despite all the work that I have done. Even the female “friends” that I talk to have shown that the only reason why they talk to me is cause of my guy friend who is the common friend between us. They don’t even want to get to know me. Not that I am interested in them but they don’t even want to know who I am. THEY EVEN GET MY NAME WRONG COUNTLESS TIMES DESPITE ME CORRECTING THEM BRUH.

    Maybe I am in fact the issue. Cause there is a saying that in a class, if one student fails, then it is the student’s fault for failing, but if EVERYONE fails, then it’s the teacher’s fault for not teaching properly. In the same way, if everyone thinks that I am not worth their time, maybe I am in fact not worth their time. Maybe it is my attitude too, maybe it is my stubbornness, maybe it is the fact that I am the dumbest in my class. I’ve been insulted and treated like trash so many times that I am now too afraid to even talk to people so I reserve myself and do not talk more than necessary. I have made a fool of myself in front of people so many times that I am pretty sure they all see me as some insignificant idiot.

    So based on all this, I don’t think there is any normal, decent girl who will be willing to give me a chance.

    Paradoxy

    #430565
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Roberta,

    There are libraries here and etc but I don’t think I will have any luck there. Besides I need to heal from my last relationship and focus on my priorities which is med right now.

    As for B’s case, I am just naive enough to believe that people can change, naive enough to hold on to hope that doesn’t even exist. I was never given a chance when I desperately wanted one, and I don’t want anyone else to go through that. I know I gave B a lot of chances already, but even the Bible indicates that I should forgive an infinite number of times. However, I guess even the Bible doesn’t want me to be taken advantage of.

    Paradoxy

    #430566
    anita
    Participant

    * Because the following includes many quotes from online sources, it may include a lot of excess/ messy print, in which case, I will resubmit it for a clear, easy to read text.

    Dear Paradoxy:

    I am back to your thread because it would be socially irresponsible of me to leave a question  you asked 16 hours ago unanswered. Here is the question that you asked in this public forum: “Doesn’t that make me an abuser too? Because I have called her names in anger and apologized to her later, only to repeat it the next time she pissed me off. The only difference is that I did not just call her random insults (except recently with the use of the term bitch, whore (which I already explained), garbage, trash etc.), I made sure to use terms that literally described how she was behaving, such as brick wall, stupid, dumb, fool etc.”

    I will take my time answering your question as thoroughly as I can. It will be a long post.

    You called her (B) names, names that you placed in 2 categories: (1) “random insults” and (2) “terms that literally described how she was behaving“.

    You listed examples of the names you called her under the 2 categories: bi**, wh***, garbage, trash, etc. (category 1), and brick wall, stupid, dumb, fool, etc. (category 2).

    The “etc.” clearly suggests that there are other names in  each category, names that you called her, but you didn’t list those names.

    You stated that you called her names, apologized for it later, only to do it again. And you stated that you called her names “in anger“, when she “pissed (you) off“.

    very well mind: “Verbal abuse is a type of emotional abuse. It is when someone uses their words to assault, dominate, ridicule, manipulate, and/or degrade another person and negatively impact that person’s psychological health. Verbal abuse is a means of controlling and maintaining power over another person”.

    Wikipedia: “Verbal abuse (also known as verbal aggression, verbal attack, verbal violence…) is a type of psychological/ mental abuse that involves the use of oral, gestured, and written language directed to a victim.. (including) the use of derogatory terms, the delivery of statements intended to frighten, humiliate, denigrate, or belittle a person”.

    Psychology today: “Verbal abuse is a way of hurting others, using words or silence as a weapon. Unlike physical abuse, verbal abuse doesn’t give rise to broken limbs, black eyes, or bruises. Yet it can be just as emotionally disturbing and often leads to anxiety, fear, despair, or depression”.

    very well family: “Everyone has heard the saying: ‘Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.”‘ The problem is, this statement is not the least bit true. Name-calling is one of the most damaging and painful types of bullying… It is a form of relational bullying… Name-calling can have serious consequences on mental health. In fact, many researchers feel it is one of the most damaging forms of bullying”.

    definitions, us legal: “Verbal abuse is the use of words to cause harm to the person being spoken to… The most commonly understood form is name-calling. Verbal abuse may consist of shouting, insulting, intimidating, threatening, shaming, demeaning, or derogatory language, among other forms of communication. Perpetrators of verbal abuse often misuse their authority and prey on those in a subordinate position”.

    Christian website: “Verbal abuse can leave deep wounds that are not easily healed. If you or someone you know suffers from this, you may wonder – what does the Bible say about verbal abuse? Read on as we explore biblical truths about this difficult topic. The quick answer is that Scripture clearly prohibits abusive speech and behavior. Time and again biblical authors condemn harsh words, insults, slander, and more. The Bible calls us to love one another, which leaves no room for tearing others down with our words… The Bible has strong words against verbal abuse and hurtful speech…

    “The Bible says ‘the tongue has the power of life and death‘ (Proverbs 18:21). Our words carry tremendous power and we are accountable for how we use them. Scripture condemns verbal abuse in passages like Ephesians 4:29: ‘Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.’ Hurtful speech tears down rather than builds up… Words have incredible power. They can uplift and encourage, or demoralize and destroy. Verbal abuse inflicts deep wounds. Studies show it negatively affects mental health and can lead to anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, PTSD, and even suicide…

    “Words also impact us physiologically. Being yelled at spikes blood pressure and stress hormones like cortisol. Over time, this damages health. At an extreme, words can even kill. Scripture says ‘cruel words crush the spirit’ (Proverbs 15:4 CEV). Abusive speech destroys relationships and tears families apart. It breeds insecurity, resentment, and dysfunction. God desires our speech to build up, not tear down. As Ephesians 4:15 (NLT) says, ‘We will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ‘…Proverbs 18:21 declares, ‘Death and life are in the power of the tongue.‘…

    “We have a sobering responsibility in how we use our words… Jesus emphasized the importance of our words in Matthew 12, where He said we will give an account on judgment day for every ‘careless word’ we have spoken (v.36). Sobering words indeed!… Ephesians 4:29 provides a helpful filter we can apply to our communication: ‘Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.’ Before speaking, we ought to ask ourselves, “Will this comment contribution positively to this conversation and to the people participating?” If not, it’s better left unsaid…

    “The first recorded instance of verbal abuse in the Bible is when Cain insulted his brother Abel. Genesis 4:3-8 describes how both brothers brought offerings to God. Abel’s offering of the firstborn of his flock pleased God, but Cain’s offering of fruit did not. This angered Cain greatly and ‘his face fell.‘ Rather than examine his own heart, Cain took out his anger on his brother, mocking his offering. This ultimately led to the first murder when Cain killed his brother…

    “Many faiths uphold the inherent worth and dignity of all people as made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Degrading words can violate this God-given dignity. Scripture calls us to ‘speak evil of no one’ (Titus 3:2)..

    “The Bible compares the tongue’s power to a flaming fire that can consume what it touches (James 3:6). Our speech has creative potential for good or ill. As Matthew 12:37 states, ‘By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned’. Golden rule: Jesus taught to ‘do to others what you would have them do to you‘ (Matthew 7:12). If we wouldn’t wan t to receive harsh words, we should be unwilling to inflict them on others. Applying the Golden Rule to our speech promotes compassion”.

    Back to your words of 16 hours ago, Paradoxy: “this is not the first fight/break up we have had… this constant break up and getting back together was a cycle“- I wanted to ask you a long time ago, but didn’t: since you met B, if you add all the time you and her were together vs apart, were you apart longer than you were together? Also, who initiated a breakup every time a breakup took place? Were all the fights about her sexual misconduct, or were there other topics? Did she start the fights, did you, or was it a mix? Last question for now: when you called her names, how did she react?

    You didn’t mention that she called you names. You shared that in  regard to her sexual misconduct, she lied to you, accused you and blamed you for it, for example, saying that she prostituted herself once or twice because you broke up with her. In adult, romantic relationships, often it is not the case that one of the parties is The Victim and the other, The Perpetrator. Often there is wrong-talking and wrong-doing on both sides.

    Back to what you wrote yesterday: “most of these girls here are worse than B. I’ve seen how these girls behave, literally no respect for their partners. These girls make B look like she is a perfect angel from heaven“-

    – this worries me. You repeatedly called a “perfect angel from heaven” (by comparison to other women), terrible names.. if you got into a relationship with any of the “worse than B” women, what would you call them..?

    Of course, I hope you wouldn’t call anyone names, which brings me back to your question. The answer: yes, you verbally abused B, and repeatedly.

    I just read your most recent posts. You ended your 2nd post a few minutes ago with this: “I know I gave B a lot of chances already, but even the Bible indicates that I should forgive an infinite number of times. However, I guess even the Bible doesn’t want me to be taken advantage of. Paradoxy”-

    rock solid faith: “If a spouse is unfaithful, the Bible teaches that they can ask God for forgiveness, and He will forgive them“- not that B is a spouse, but nonetheless, ask your God to forgive her. Learn from the experience, correct the behaviors on your part that need to be corrected, and forgive yourself.

    anita

    #430572
    anita
    Participant

    * Editing the very last paragraph:

    rock solid faith: “If a spouse is unfaithful, the Bible teaches that they can ask God for forgiveness, and He will forgive them“- not that B is a spouse, but nonetheless, she can ask God to forgive her.

    Learn from the experience, correct the behaviors on your part that need to be corrected, and forgive yourself.

    anita

    #430629
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    Prompted by Anita’s post, I would like to address the fact that you see B’s behavior with men (sleeping with other men, sexting, walking around scantily dressed etc) as stupid, whereas it could be a result of unresolved psychological issues, as I’ve tried to explain before.

    You called her (or her behavior) stupid numerous times in your posts, including when she slept with another man for money:

    I do not hate her. I hate the things she did. I hate her stupidity.  … She was already aware of what was going to happen DAYS BEFORE it happened. She had time to prepare. Time to think. Time to decide. Yet she still chose wrong.

    SHE IS A 22 YEAR OLD ADULT WHO SHOULD HAVE THE COMMON SENSE TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISION AND SHE CHOSE THE WRONG ONE. WHAT MAKES MATTERS WORSE IS THAT B AND THE MAN CONTINUED TALKING FOR COUPLE MORE WEEKS AND SHE EVEN ADMITTED TO DEVELOPING FEELINGS FOR HIM.

    I am just confused as to how this situation even happened. My only logical explanation is just plain stupidity.

    Her parents did not take care of her well and so it was her aunt who actually took care of her so that would explain why she is so stupid.

    I cannot even blame her for being stupid cause I know she is trying her best to do the right things. How do you even improve someone’s decision making skills? Like how do you teach someone to make better decisions?

    I have tried to explain to you that women don’t prostitute themselves out of stupidity, but because of external conditioning (e.g. being taught that it is something normal and desirable) or because of lack of self-respect, i.e. some inner brokenness and trauma.

    Agreeing to prostitution, without being directly coerced into it, is a sign that the person is emotionally and mentally unwell, not that they are stupid.

    I’ve got to say, this notion of yours that she is stupid rather than emotionally wounded reminds me of your father’s attitude that suicidal people are idiots. He believed that you were stupid for having suicidal thoughts. Whereas you were not stupid, but you were hurting.

    I believe this is similar – B is not stupid, she is hurting in some way. What she said in the following 2 sentences tells me that she might actually feel loved by the men who desire her, who view her as a sex object:

    B told me that my parents and I ruined her life, that she entertained the other men and slept with the guy cause she liked the feeling of not being discriminated against.

    The fact that she said that I ruined her life, that I would cheat (despite how loyal I was to her), the fact that she liked how she felt with other men unlike me, all hurt me.

    She even developed feelings for the guy who was paying her for sex:

    WHAT MAKES MATTERS WORSE IS THAT B AND THE MAN CONTINUED TALKING FOR COUPLE MORE WEEKS AND SHE EVEN ADMITTED TO DEVELOPING FEELINGS FOR HIM.

    This tells me that she confuses being loved with being sexually desired. If my assumption is correct, she didn’t go to prostitute herself because she was stupid, but (bizarre as it may sound) because she wanted to feel loved, to feel good about herself. Which she claimed she didn’t always feel with you.

    Let me be clear, I am NOT condoning her behavior whatsoever. I am just saying that her sexually inappropriate behavior is not the result of stupidity, but of her own unmet emotional needs, especially the need for love.

    Of course, the way she behaves with you – lying, cheating and acting out sexually – is not a loving behavior. And I understand why you can’t love her for that. But she is not doing it because she is stupid.

    You have convinced yourself that she is innocent and oblivious and stupid, and that she behaves in sexually provocative ways without being aware of it:

    in the case of her hugging the guy and wearing the bikini, I see pure stupidity cause the pictures she took indicate that she is oblivious to the fact that the guy friend’s friend has his arm around her back ending near the breast region while the bikini incident occurred at around 6 am where she assumed everyone would be asleep, but obviously not cause her guy friend was awake. I also noticed that the outfit that she chose to wear are extremely short, cut jeans while everyone else including the females were wearing long, more modest clothing.

    I pointed out all of these things and she acknowledged that she was not thinking when she did all of this and apologized for it but idk if I should even consider her apology.

    The way that she behaves just shows how stupid and oblivious she is. She doesn’t even appear to be intentionally doing it, she is just operating on literally three brain cells, so it is hard to assume that she is craving the attention, she is just an extrovert that likes to party and enjoy life etc.

    She told you she wasn’t thinking, and you believed her, but the more likely explanation is that she actually liked these guys’ attention, because she herself admitted that she felt good being with men who desired her. She isn’t bothered by being sexually desired by men – on the contrary, she likes it (by her own admission).

    My addition is that she might even feel loved by them, because she might be confusing love with sexual desire.

    Anyway, I don’t see oblivion or stupidity in her behavior, but rather an unmet emotional need, which she is trying to meet in wrong ways. Ways that will only harm her. But that’s the nature of all addictions and all unhealthy behaviors.

    That’s why I would like to suggest to you to re-evaluate your stance that she is stupid and oblivious. And start thinking of her as someone hurting inside. Someone with unmet emotional needs. Perhaps even someone like you, even though she is displaying a very different behavior than you.

    This doesn’t mean you need to get back together and start tolerating her bad behavior. You should definitely not do that!

    But what it means is that you need to stop trying to teach her, guide her and educate her out of her “stupidity”. Because she is not stupid, she knows all those things (you said she reads her Bible every day). And she is a medical student, so she certainly has more than 3 brain cells working!

    You said you loved her and tried to help her heal (I am the only person who took on the role of helping her heal). But telling her that she is stupid, dumb, brick wall etc isn’t love and isn’t conducive to healing. Realizing that she has mental health issues and then suggesting therapy (individual therapy) would be more helpful.

    And then letting her go, because her emotional wounds cause her to behave in ways that abusive and hurtful towards you. And you don’t need to endure that.

    Anyway, I think a change is necessary in how you view her…

     

    #430631
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    So basically, you are saying that I am indeed verbally abusive. But I want to understand, is it still verbally abusive if the things that are said are actually true? And it is not like she felt any remorse over her decisions/actions. Would calling her a brick wall be considered verbally abusive, when she is actually behaving like a brick wall by not listening to me or give me a chance to explain myself or by not keeping an open mind when I try to correct her misunderstanding? Even you probably thought of me as a brick wall when I appeared to be too stubborn to listen to your advice even though I was listening to your advice.

    Keep in mind that the only time I crossed the line with my namecalling was recently when she pissed me off worse than ever before, but the usual namecalling were minor terms such as stupid or brick wall etc, each used in situations where they accurately describe her behavior. Even if it sounds like an insult, the purpose of the use of those terms were to describe her behavior, except recently when I crossed the line with the namecalling.

    “I wanted to ask you a long time ago, but didn’t: since you met B, if you add all the time you and her were together vs apart, were you apart longer than you were together?” No we were together longer than we were apart. Because every time we broke up, I just chose to forgive her when she apologized.

    “Also, who initiated a breakup every time a breakup took place? In the early part of our relationship, the break ups started with her, when she broke up over reasons such as having feelings for another man or the age difference being an issue or other people’s opinions regarding our relationship or other false accusations/misunderstandings such as me not responding to her calls due to me being asleep etc. I started initiating break ups in more severe cases like finding out that she spent time naked in a towel with another man (her ex which I was unaware of at the time), when she was disrespecting my parents, when she was too stubborn to listen to me when I tried to correct her misunderstandings etc (she was draining too much energy from me when I try to correct her). I have caused fights three times, which I am willing to take responsibility for due to my rash decisions and my own forgetfulness even though the situation only became an issue as a result of her misunderstanding. I have already told you about what happened in those three fights where I was the problem. But all the other fights started with her, but she says that she started the arguments cause of the way I made her feel. An example would be when she believed that my parents were calling her a gold digger and manipulator, which offended her, but in reality I was just telling her about the experiences they had with women from this side of the world. The annoying thing is that it was already explained, clarified to the point where she already apologized for her misunderstanding, but every time we have a fight, she goes right back to her assumptions proving that she never accepted any of the explanations I had for her misunderstandings. Another example would be when she got offended by me when I could not give 15 minutes of my time for her cause I was preparing for exams, which made her feel neglected and unwanted, but I had already told her that if it was something that was planned, I could have changed my schedule to give her my attention cause I can’t just immediately change up my plans just for her because dealing with Med is a pain, and despite the fact that I tried to resolve the issue, she crossed the line when she said I would rather be with my gamer friends than with her, which rubbed me wrong and I initiated the break up then, but she reinforced my decision to break up with her by doing all the extra things which I informed you about already.

    “When you called her names, how did she react?” She was obviously hurt, but every time I called her names, they were terms such as brick wall or stupid or dumb, which are normal terms used to describe an individual’s behavior. If she called me those terms, I wouldn’t mind at all if she was telling the truth about my decisions/actions being stupid and etc. I always speak the truth, even if it is the harsh truth. I’ve been working on decreasing my verbal abusiveness and it was considerably reduced until she crossed the line in our arguments. Even in the fight where I called her a whore and etc, I only called her those names because she called me a moron first and when I asked her to prove that I am a moron, she couldn’t but I had proof that she was a whore because she was paid to sleep with that man in January.

    “You didn’t mention that she called you names.” Well she used to call me “a piece of sh*t” but she stopped calling me that when I told her not to use that name since there was no evidence of me behaving like a “piece of sh*t”. But recently she called me a moron in one of our arguments but when I asked her to prove that I am a moron, she couldn’t do that either. I mean I understand that she is just angry but at least let the anger by justified. At least be fair in your anger bruh. At least be angry with me if I deserved it. If I honestly did something wrong, I would gladly accept my mistake and apologize for it. But all she does is make these false accusations and when I ask her to prove it, she doesn’t have any evidence. Like how is that even fair to me? Whenever I am angry with her, I always pointed out exactly and precisely what bothered me and why what she did was wrong. But in her case, she is just angry cause of her OWN MISUNDERSTANDING. HOW IS THAT FAIR BRUH? How is it fair for her to be angry over her OWN misunderstanding and she doesn’t even let me correct the misunderstanding. Why should I put up with that???? I am more than willing to take responsibility for my mistake but at least be fair when judging me.

    “If you got into a relationship with any of the “worse than B” women, what would you call them..?” Trust me when I say this, if I were to date the women who were actually worse than B, there wouldn’t even be time for namecalling. That relationship would have ended instantly. But even if there is time for namecalling, I would be fair. If they cheated on me, I would call them a cheater or a whore or something of that level. If they did something incredibly stupid like wasting a thousand dollars, obviously I would call them out for their actions and say they were stupid for wasting the money. I used to say that I was in love with B despite her flaws, but now the flaws are like porcupine spines piercing me every time I try to hug her.

    “The answer: yes, you verbally abused B, and repeatedly. Fine, you are right, my verbal abusiveness was harsh, but how else did you expect me to react when you are trying to explain the same point for DAYS or even WEEKS and she just REFUSES to listen. I do not INSTANTLY go straight to being verbally abusive. I go there after HOURS or DAYS or WEEKS of CONTINUOUS ARGUING over the SAME STUPID ISSUE and I reach that point of being verbally abusive when I RUN OUT OF PATIENCE. She is the only person that I wanted to correct. The only person I wanted to understand. I don’t care about anyone else, my parents, family, friend etc. SHE IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO I WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HER MISTAKES SO SHE CAN CORRECT THEM BECAUSE I WANTED TO LOVE HER WITHOUT HER CAUSING ME MORE PAIN. Honestly Anita, how do you expect me to react when she sleeps with another man and then blames me for it? Like how? How would YOU react if your OWN PARTNER slept with another woman and then BLAMES YOU for it, saying that it is YOUR FAULT for making them feel abandoned, YOUR FAULT for making them sleep with another woman? Maybe you would have handled the situation better than me, but please understand the amount of anger that I was feeling in this situation and other similar situations. All I have been doing is pouring out love to her. The only wrong thing I did was my verbal abusiveness which ONLY OCCURS WHEN WE ARE FIGHTING FOR HOURS OR DAYS OR WEEKS NON STOP. Some people just forget all the good things that someone has done when they do something bad one time.

    If a spouse is unfaithful, the Bible teaches that they can ask God for forgiveness, and He will forgive them“- not that B is a spouse, but nonetheless, she can ask God to forgive her. She already indicates that she regrets her actions and I am sure God has forgiven her, and I have forgiven her too, but how can I forget the things she did, knowing that it was her own decision and not 100% forced decision. I want to forgive Anita, I want to fix this. I want to pour out my love to her again. I don’t like calling her names. I wish I didn’t get as angry as I did but it is so difficult when she keeps testing my patience. If the situation was actually my fault, I would gladly accept it. So why is it so difficult for her to take full responsibility for her mistakes? She claims to take responsibility for her mistakes only to try to justify her mistakes the next day. Just like what Tee said, how can I continue to date a 5 year old who is incapable of making proper decisions,  living in a 22 year old girl’s body?

    I repeat, I know that I am verbally abusive and I regret my actions but I only entered that state due to the helplessness I feel when she is too stubborn to be deal with, when she refuses to listen to me or even give me a chance to correct her. I just feel so helpless when I am forced to just shut up and listen to her false accusations when she doesn’t even have proof of these accusations other than her own misunderstandings. Please understand the anger I felt in that moment, which caused me to be verbally abusive.

    Paradoxy

    #430632
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Ok Tee, you may be right, maybe it is due to her external conditioning, I just categorize all of it as stupidity cause I couldn’t think of any other term to describe it at the time.

    “B is not stupid, she is hurting in some way.” She said that she was hurt by the break up, she was hurt by my parents’ views on the women today due to the horrible experiences they have come across. But that was just a misunderstanding, because they are not saying that she is a gold digger and etc, they are saying that she COULD be and I asked her if she had any ulterior motives to dating me since there were some signs that were a little similar to a gold digger like when she told me she and her friend were planning to date a med student since they make a lot of money and I am coincidentally a med student. Besides, her own aunt is a gold digger because she married multiple men for their wealth, status etc so what is going to stop B from becoming a gold digger especially since her aunt heavily influences her? So would being hurt by what my parents said be considered a valid reason to prostitute herself?

    ” If my assumption is correct, she didn’t go to prostitute herself because she was stupid, but (bizarre as it may sound) because she wanted to feel loved, to feel good about herself.” That is precisely correct. She said she felt more loved by other men than with me cause of the stereotype my parents had of women in general in the modern world. I just call it stupid because how can I pour out so much love but she is still too blind to see the difference between the love I poured into her and the love other man poured into her. I said it was stupid cause how can she ignore my pure love for her but love the fake love that other men had for her. Even as someone who has being studying psychology for years, it is still hard for me to wrap my mind around her ungratefulness.

    “She told you she wasn’t thinking, and you believed her, but the more likely explanation is that she actually liked these guys’ attention, because she herself admitted that she felt good being with men who desired her.” That is difficult to tell because these men are like 60 or 70 years old, even her guy friend is married and close to his death (I think he has pancreatic cancer but I don’t remember exactly). But maybe you are right, maybe she has the subconscious desire for men’s attention that even she is not aware of. I just thought my love could fix those issues, those flaws in her.

    “That’s why I would like to suggest to you to re-evaluate your stance that she is stupid and oblivious. And start thinking of her as someone hurting inside. Someone with unmet emotional needs. Perhaps even someone like you, even though she is displaying a very different behavior than you.” Fine, I could start seeing her like that. And then what? How do I fix it? How do I correct this subconscious desire in her? I thought I could fix it if I loved her right, but that didn’t work. I thought that my desire for her would have enough effect on her to not appreciate other men’s desire for her.  Would a therapist help? She doesn’t have that kind of money right now so that will have to wait.

    “You said you loved her and tried to help her heal (I am the only person who took on the role of helping her heal). But telling her that she is stupid, dumb, brick wall etc isn’t love and isn’t conducive to healing.” Helping her heal and calling her stupid and dumb happened in totally different situations. Like I told Anita, I only entered the verbally abusive phase after fighting for HOURS, or DAYS, or WEEKS, nonstop to the point that I feel helpless and energy drained. I am able to accurately describe how she feels and she knows that I am the only person who understands her so well, but that doesn’t mean I do not have a limit to how much foolishness I can tolerate. I am the one who keeps trying to simplify her argument so that she does not misunderstand easily. I am the one who breaks down the situations into bullet points so that she understands where she went wrong. I am the one who showed her how a real boyfriend should treat her. I respected her throughout most of the relationship until those severe moments when I ran out of patience for her bs. Like I am human. I have a limit to how much foolishness/stubbornness I can take. I have a limit to my patience. I cannot be calm 24/7 when she gives me the stupidest excuses of her behavior. Like come on, how can you expect me to not get angry when she sleeps with another man and then blames me for it? It is so draining to have an argument with her cause of how stubborn she is. It is very unfair that I get judged for the times that I was verbally abusive when it is very obvious how wrong her behavior is. But I will still consider what you have said, but I think I need to cut ties with her cause she comes back telling me how hurt she is and etc that I am detaching when it is so obvious that I am detaching cause of the numerous amount of times that she has hurt me.

    Paradoxy

    #430633
    anita
    Participant

    Like I said before, you love to hate her. If you had a girlfriend who was as perfect as can be, where would you direct all this hate that’s inside you?

    anita

    #430654
    Tee
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy,

    She said that she was hurt by the break up, she was hurt by my parents’ views on the women today due to the horrible experiences they have come across.

    When I said she was hurting, I was referring to the hurt that predates your relationship. The hurt that made her prostitute herself. The hurt that makes her feel loved and accepted by people who pay her for sex. That kind of hurt. Because those are not sentiments and reactions of an emotionally healthy person. Those are reactions of someone with an emotional injury.

    She might have been offended by you asking if she was a gold digger, but it wouldn’t have caused a normal person to go prostitute herself. She is blaming you for hurting her, but she had been hurt much earlier, by her parents and other family members, in her childhood and youth. And she is still carrying that hurt, and acting out from it.

    She said she felt more loved by other men than with me cause of the stereotype my parents had of women in general in the modern world.

    I think she actually has self-esteem issues, she feels unworthy, otherwise she couldn’t have prostituted herself. And she seems to want validation from you – that’s why she is talking about discrimination and is so easily offended by your parents’ views (you had numerous fights about that, right?).

    But she is not getting any validation, partly (1) because of your general suspicion of women, which you inherited from your parents (spiced up by the fact that her aunt is actually a gold-digger and a woman of suspicious morale), and more importantly (2) because she behaves in inappropriate, sexually provocative ways with men.

    So she feels rejected by you and your parents, but at the same time she is behaving in ways that prove your parents’ suspicion. She is offended that you don’t give her more respect, while at the same time she is not warrantying that respect – based on how she behaves with men.

    My guess is that she is in her own vicious circle of wanting approval and ruining it with her own actions. But then she doesn’t want to accept that it is HER who is ruining her own credibility, but is blaming you for that. That’s the double abuse I was talking about: first by lying/cheating, and then by blaming you for it.

    So this could be her inner struggle: wanting respect and ruining it. Feeling worthless (and doing things with which she further humiliates herself), but wanting to feel worthy.

    You didn’t cause her to feel worthless (it happened in her childhood and youth), but you are adding to the feeling, by staying in a relationship with her and trying to force her to be decent, and teach her about it (about the rules and moral codes), and calling her stupid when she doesn’t comply.

    This whole attempt of yours to “save” her is futile, because her problem is not lack of knowledge, but an internal battle. A battle that she is waging with herself, and you got caught in the middle. You are trying to save her, but as I said before, only she can save herself.

    Fine, I could start seeing her like that. And then what? How do I fix it? How do I correct this subconscious desire in her?

    You cannot. Only she can help herself – if she chooses to. If she acknowledges that she has a problem and then goes to therapy with it.

    I thought I could fix it if I loved her right, but that didn’t work. I thought that my desire for her would have enough effect on her to not appreciate other men’s desire for her.

    I just thought my love could fix those issues, those flaws in her.

    That’s not how our psychological problems work. If something is missing from our formative years (from that cement that goes into the foundations of the house), it can only be healed by inner work and inner transformation. No external substitute will do. Even if you were the most perfect boyfriend, and even if you tolerated her cheating, she would still have the internal battle within herself. And she would still find reasons to falsely accuse you of things.

    You thought you were helping her heal by accepting her lame excuses and giving her another chance. And then trying to educate her how to behave, getting pissed off with her, calling her names, etc. This had zero positive effect on her, it only added fuel to the fire. And it ruined you and lead you to exhaustion, as you said, because she was completely closed for any kind of “correction”. Because as I said, her problem is not lack of education, but an internal battle.

    I am able to accurately describe how she feels and she knows that I am the only person who understands her so well, but that doesn’t mean I do not have a limit to how much foolishness I can tolerate.

    You don’t understand her, Paradoxy. She is not stupid or foolish. She is in an internal battle with herself, on one hand wanting to feel worthy and respected, and on the other probably believing she doesn’t deserve it. And then sabotaging it by acting out sexually. That’s just an assumption on my part, but whatever it is, it’s not something you can fix for her. She would need to acknowledge that she has a problem first, and then seek therapy.

    Like come on, how can you expect me to not get angry when she sleeps with another man and then blames me for it? It is so draining to have an argument with her cause of how stubborn she is.

    It’s normal to get angry, but it’s not normal to repeat the cycle endless times, trying to make her see how she is hurting you, and she not wanting to listen, and you trying to force her to listen (the amount of pressure I have to put to force her to listen is really high. I have to figuratively shut her mouth with tape to make her listen, that is the level the situation has become.)

    I hope you haven’t actually taped her mouth (!) but it shows how strongly you are attached to changing her. Which is an unhealthy amount of attachment. You would need to let her go.

    You cannot force the person to see you, to have empathy for you, to understand your pain – they have to feel it themselves. And she doesn’t feel it. She is very much in denial of the destructiveness of her actions and her own responsibility in it.

    I will still consider what you have said, but I think I need to cut ties with her cause she comes back telling me how hurt she is and etc that I am detaching when it is so obvious that I am detaching cause of the numerous amount of times that she has hurt me.

    I never said you shouldn’t cut ties. On the contrary, I advised you not to get back together with her. She is still trying to lure you back, to make you feel sorry for her, telling you that you broke up for stupid reasons etc. When the truth is that you have every right to detach yourself from her, after everything she did.

    So yes, I’d encourage you to detach yourself, to stop wanting to change her, to stop believing you can heal her. Because her healing can only come from within – if and when she is ready for it.

     

    #430675
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Anita,

    Where did you see me indicating that I love to hate her? If she was as perfect as can be, there would not be any hate to direct in the first place.

    Paradoxy.

    #430676
    Tommy
    Participant

    To me, the indication of love and hate can be seen in your first post to ask whether or not to forgive her. You may not wish to declare the love and hate strongly but the length of your first post shows a deeper emotional connection. You have been given advice to leave her alone as you can not change her. She will not be a better person for you. You will only entangle yourself in something far too complicated for your emotions to handle. But, it is your choice.

    #430679
    ParadoxMusic
    Participant

    Dear Tee,

    Even if you are referring to the hurt that predates the relationship, she said it herself that the hurt that made her prostitute herself was my parents’ opinion and the break up itself. Cause there were other situations where she could have prostituted herself but she didn’t because she knows it is wrong and she was not hurting in those periods. Such as when her own manager wanted her to sleep with him to save her job, she refused to do it because she was emotionally healthy then and she knew it was wrong.

    In the end, all the hurt that she has endured all her life factored into her decision to prostitute herself but it was our break up and what my parents said that put her in a weak, mentally unstable position where she could not think straight nor form proper decisions. That is how I understand it. Cause she could have prostituted herself in other situations but she didn’t.

    She said that I ruined her self-esteem, and that is why she wants validation from me. She specifically said that. Despite how many times I clarified the situation, it still offends her because she is too blinded by the emotion to understand my clarification.

    You are right about everything else that you said about her. But how do I fix that? Even therapy doesn’t gurantee 100% chance at fixing that kind of behavior, not to mention how expensive it would be by the time she is healed.

    She also told me when she confessed her cheating that most of the fights that she caused last year were excuses to leave me cause of her internal conflict so that she doesn’t have to deal with the guilt of proving my parents right. But the fact that she still loves me makes her want to get back together with me, and my dumbass self keeps forgiving her too.

    Even if only she can help herself, wasn’t there anything I could have done to help her in the process of healing?

    I just thought that if she was craving attention from men, then having all my attention would be good enough. If she wanted the feeling of being loved and cared for, I thought I could provide that feeling. I thought I could make her feel worthy and validated, but I was not aware that she was still holding on to things that I had already explained and corrected.

    I know that calling her names added fuel to the fire, but I didn’t expect educating her to behave properly would also act as fuel.

    “You don’t understand her, Paradoxy. She is not stupid or foolish.” I already stated that I said stupid because I could not think of any other term to describe her behavior. I am not saying that she is actually stupid. And I said I understand her because I am able to accurately describe how she is feeling. There are countless arguments where she told me that I don’t understand her, and then I proceed to describe exactly how she is feeling, to which she admits that my description is correct. So do I still not understand her? I was already aware of a degree of the internal conflict because she already told me that she was looking for excuses to leave me but also wanted to be with me. I was just naive enough to believe I could be the solution to her internal conflict.

    I think I am actually insane because insanity is when you do the same thing and expect a different outcome, and by going through this same cycle a 100 times, maybe I have gone insane in the end.

    I told her at the very beginning of our relationship how clingy I am and how attached I become to the person I love the most. I guess it came back to bite me in the ass. Should have seen the red flags when she was dry and cold and behaving weird in the first couple days of our relationship. Everyone told me not to date her when I showed them what she was doing but my stupid self continued to love her.

    We just had another two day argument yesterday where she made false accusations again regarding the same things we have already discussed and it hit my ego cause of how she is incorrectly describing what happened. Eventually I corrected her but it was still another 2 day argument that still drained me. I wish I could just block her or something but she still has my belongings such as laptop, mouse and a lot of money which she cannot return as she is not financially stable right now and her work requires her to have my laptop as she cannot afford her own. I really hoped that she would be the person I would end up marrying. Now all the dreams I had with her are crushed.

    Paradoxy

    #430680
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Paradoxy:

    So basically, you are saying that I am indeed verbally abusive“- yes.

    But I want to understand, is it still verbally abusive if the things that are said are actually true?“- telling anyone that they are a “brick wall” is abusive no matter the IQ of the person. As a matter of fact, it is unintelligent of a person to call another dumb, a brick wall, etc., if one wants love and respect in return.

    Would calling her a brick wall be considered verbally abusive, when she is actually behaving like a brick wall by not listening to me“- she shouldn’t listen to anything you say for as long as what you say to her includes verbal abuse from time to time.

    Even you probably thought of me as a brick wall when I appeared to be too stubborn to listen to your advice even though I was listening to your advice“- I don’t think that you listened to my advice in this 5- page thread, not yet.

    I am more than willing to take responsibility for my mistake but at least be fair when judging me“- you didn’t yet take responsibility for verbally abusing her, you’ve spoken from both sides of your mouth in this regard: saying that you were abusive and then saying that if she is a brick wall, then calling her a brick wall is not abusive.

    “Honestly Anita, how do you expect me to react when she sleeps with another man and then blames me for it? Like how? How would YOU react if your OWN PARTNER slept with another woman and then BLAMES YOU for it, saying that it is YOUR FAULT for making them feel abandoned, YOUR FAULT for making them sleep with another woman?“- if I called my partner names, dumb, a brick wall, etc., and repeatedly, if I was arrogant, dismissive and abusive to him, I wouldn’t expect him to be loyal to me.

    Please understand the amount of anger that I was feeling in this situation and other similar situations“- uncontrolled anger is behind much of interpersonal abuse and crime, crimes of passion, it’s called.

    I always speak the truth, even if it is the harsh truth… All I have been doing is pouring out love to her“- the second part of this quote is one of the times that you have taken an exception to speaking the truth.

    Some people just forget all the good things that someone has done when they do something bad one time“- this is an accusation some abusive people make on a regular basis, accusing the abused of paying too much/ disproportional attention to the abuse. It’s a false accusation.

    Let’s look at what you shared back in March 2020, when you were 15, way before you knew that B existed in the world:

    I feel hollow inside…. I felt like a burden to others. But I never got angry… I created a pressurized vessel that I tried to blow on myself so I would die but it just injured my arm and I became known in my school as an expert in bombs… I have this weird pain in my chest that wouldn’t go away… My parents… have called me things in my main language which I cannot translate. Their insults made me so upset that sometimes I felt as if death was the only solution and they would only understand my value once I die. But for some reason, I kept forgiving and forgetting… There happened to be an incident where my neighbor threatened my parents that they would call social services since they saw how I was being treated… I love and care for my parents even if they mistreat me… I laugh when I see someone die in movies (especially gory deaths) while everyone else is horrified or sad. But I still don’t care… I laugh at gory deaths cause I think it’s funny how the person dies (For example: In the movie Final Destination 2, I laughed when I saw a girl being shot to death through the head with a nail gun by accident)“.

    B brought her past to the troubled, on and off, fight-filled relationship with you. You brought your past to the relationship. What I see in your past (quotes right above) is severe verbal abuse perpetrated on you by your parents, abuse severe enough for a neighbor to notice and threaten to call social services. I see you minimizing their abuse. I see you suppressing your anger at your parents and expressing it at yourself.. and at a woman in a movie, enjoying the portrayal of her violent death.

    I just noticed that you submitted a post for me a few moments ago, you wrote: “Dear Anita, Where did you see me indicating that I love to hate her? If she was as perfect as can be, there would not be any hate to direct in the first place.”-

    – the hate predated you meeting B, she did not create your hate.

    You did a lot of fighting within the relationship with B (“I only entered the verbally abusive phase after fighting for HOURS, or DAYS, or WEEKS, nonstop“, April 5, 2024), and you do a lot of fighting on your thread, arguing a lot. Good thing you don’t call your responders names (I suppose that you know that it’s against website regulations). But you argue and argue. It’s like you are addicted to arguing and fighting.

    I wish I could reach you virtually with a motherly hug, and hush your anger, hush your distress, so that you can relax and be calm and have peace within you.

    anita

     

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