June 27, 2021 at 12:39 pm #382013
Thank you for correcting the silly to dreamy.
“It just gets on my nerves when… people suffering in Iraq and other countries, from all kind of mental health problems, and they don’t get any help or sympathy”-I am very sorry that the U.S., under then President Bush, invaded Iraq for a reason that was not at all true (“weapons of mass destruction”), proceeded to conduct a war that was poorly planned, leaving Iraq with tens of thousand of deaths and injuries, destruction of infrastructure, and lots of misery, including mental health problems all the way to the present (plus, the post-war misery led to the birth of ISIS, which is turn is causing more death, more injuries, and more misery in Iraq and elsewhere).
The human cost and the magnitude of the injustice done to the Iraqi people is incomprehensible. Bush got away with it because, as George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm (substituting humans for animals): “All humans are equal, but some humans are more equal than others”.
“honestly all lives don’t matter”, you wrote. All lives do matter, says I, even if I was the only person in the world saying so.
“Regarding your pessimism, you wrote: “my father is enough proof since it implies its genetic”- pessimism is learned; it is not genetic!
“it’s not that you didn’t try hard enough, its me, I already choose what I have to do and think, it’s too late now”- thank you for letting me know that it’s not that I didn’t try hard enough.
– You answered that my understanding is 100% accurate: your pessimism is a disease that is eating you alive, there is no hope whatsoever for you to ever live without this disease, the good times you enjoy do not make your life worth living, and the only way to stop the disease is death. You added that your desire to not change is part of the disease, and it’s too late for you to change.
Because the issue of life and death is resolved in your mind, all questions answered, what is the point of discussing topics that are already fully and permanently resolved in your mind? Unless you have a good answer for this question of mine, an answer that will satisfy me, I think that you and I should leave behind all the issues that are 100% resolved in your mind, and no longer discuss them. It will be a great relief for me to not discuss these dark issues when there is no benefit in such discussions!
anitaJune 27, 2021 at 1:51 pm #382016
<p style=”text-align: left;”> I think that you and I should leave behind all the issues that are 100% resolved in your mind, and no longer discuss them</p>
Yes i agree, i really don’t know why we discuss them in the first place, in my first post, i didn’t even thought that anyone will answer, and i chooseed a section that you don’t regularly go in, my thoughts was “to make a good argument why this is a good idea” and just let the other party accept this argument, now i came to believe that some people won’t accept any logical argument if it touches some taboos, such as death, which i call them norimes, to not waste either party time, i was sleepy at that time, and made the post recklessly, i imagined that people will be shocked by my logic and argument
Although i did come to a good ending with teak, she silently accepted that its a lost case, which kinda made me glad, i like having arguments honestly, they are the only things that makes me change my mind, if you right now made a good argument to why i should live, and made a very sound argument to why im wrong, i might need to process how on earth i got it wrong, but i think i will accept your argument, im just saying, im honestly bit tired of talking about this, and i imagine you are too, especially with the heat
I hope you are having a good evening, since it seems this is kinda the end of this conversation, feel free to ask me anything, i also want you to listen to a song i think you might like, (Michael Kiwanuke – Final days),i think you can also relate to itJune 27, 2021 at 2:48 pm #382017
In my yesterday post, I asked you: “this (1-4) is your worldview, which you are absolutely 100% sure that you will never, ever reconsider or change. Is my understanding in this paragraph 100% accurate?” You answered earlier today: “Yes anita, as always”.
You also wrote in your earlier post today in regard to being open to consider my thoughts and reconsider your worldview: “it’s not you really, its not that you didn’t try hard enough, its me, I already chose what I have to do and think, its too late now”.
Later today, you wrote: “I love having arguments honestly… if you right now made a good argument to why I should live, and made a very sound argument to why I’m wrong, I might need to process how on earth I got it wrong, but I think I will accept your argument“-
– there is a glaring contradiction here: if you were “absolutely 100% sure that you will not reconsider or change” your worldview, and it is too late for me to change your worldview.. then how can it be possible that you will process/ reconsider your worldview, accept my argument and change your worldview???
anitaJune 27, 2021 at 6:03 pm #382050
I will accept your argument
by accept i mean just agree and acknowledge you are correct, so far i don’t think you did that, i always asked you for the truth, no matter how ugly and how much i don’t wanna hear it, i don’t think that im 100% sure, i told you before i never be that sure, but im very convinced by my argument, if you provide a better one, i may take time to process it, i may even dislike you for a while, and my mind start eating me, but i will accept it, sooner or later, if it is the truth ofcourse
i should say, me saying that you are correct, it wasn’t accurate, you were close, to correct myself i will revisit your post
your pessimism is a disease that is eating you alive
you believe that its learned, and therefore changeable, un learn it, while this sound promising, it is not true, you said that there is no sociopath gene, i believe that science disagrees, i think that you refuse to believe in such because the latter is problematic to your values and beliefs, you like to think that people learn such thing, and unlearn it, a world without evil, the same things goes for believing in freewill, imagine thinking that there is no freewill, no morals, this isn’t a very nice way to look at the world, now i obviously just assumed those things, but i like to assume then to not, you can point out that im wrong
to back to our main argument, even if there was no gene for what i have, for the sake of argument i will accept this premise, i think that it doesn’t matter what is the reason, because the person have no desire to the other options, its more like homosexuality, if there wasn’t a gene for it, and we learn it, why couldn’t we just un learn it? if we aren’t very advance to do that, then i would assume my problem is similar, adding to that im already on the meds for whatso called depression
there is no cure for it, no hope whatsoever to live without this disease
i should say that i don’t use science solely to back my argument, i think that science is now very much effected by many factors, and that its not always correct (which is a good thing)
the only way to stop the disease is in death
saying its a disease meaning its must have a cure, to this day and age, i don’t see any, i always wished for a mind format, sad, no such thing exist, its funny because you mentioned animal farm, i rad 1984, and you know what i liked in that book? in the end when the guy torturing him to change his beliefs and thoughts, when i read this, i very much wished for such thing, in the end (if you ever see the movie) the main character finally accept, and he say “i love you, big brother” if i remember correctly, if there is such place, and the result is guaranteed, i would pay to be in such place, to finally not have this “me vs society”, to finally have peace, to accept society ideas and beliefs, to embrace it and live in it, the suffering would worth it
is your worldview, which you are absolutely 100% sure that you will never, ever reconsider or change
its not that i don’t wanna change it, its that i don’t care about it to do so, but i will hear a good argument against it, but sadly i don’t think i will change it, unless my mind start torturing meJune 27, 2021 at 7:41 pm #382051
I will read and reply to you in about 11 hours from now.
anitaJune 28, 2021 at 2:57 pm #382084
I got to know you a whole lot more in the last couple of days, and based on what I learned (that you are acutely dishonestly- manipulative, rude and arrogant)- I don’t like you nor do I love you anymore. It will be to my disadvantage to communicate with you any further. I am only a member here with no authority to decide who posts and who does not post in these forums, but personally, I wish you didn’t post again (something I have never expressed to a member before).
anitaJune 28, 2021 at 4:09 pm #382090
It went from 100 to 1 pretty fast, i think that if you loved me before and what i said back there made the love go away, and it turned to hate, then you didn’t love me really, you didn’t even know me, im not saying that you are wrong, i may possess some of the quality you mentioned, im actually surprised by your response, how did i not see that coming? I always expect the worse, but this i didn’t expect, anyhow this is my last post here, to respect your decision of not commenting with me
I will be answering peter posts right after, i was lazy to carry two conversations, take care anita, i still like you as much as the first time i talked to you, and there is nothing that you can say that will change this likingJune 28, 2021 at 4:39 pm #382092
“you didn’t love me really, you didn’t even know me”- you are correct, I didn’t know you, I didn’t understand who you are. And I didn’t understand why I liked you so much, why I felt love for you.
“I still like you as much as the first time”- no, I don’t think that you ever liked me. I think that you liked how you felt using me, in the context of these forums. The reason I liked you so much is because the idea that a rude and arrogant person such as yourself, can make an exception just for me, and be nice just to me (and to no one else) was a very attractive idea to me. it made me feel very special- something I yearned for a long time ago, as a child. Goodbye forever, Murtaza.
One more thing: I don’t like you, and I am not at all apologetic about it.
anitaJune 28, 2021 at 8:56 pm #382106
no, I don’t think that you ever liked me
Yes that’s true, because i don’t know you really, but i do like what you do here, how you talk and how you treat people
I think that you liked how you felt using me
At first, yes, in this post? No, you were the one who replied and show attention, i never asked for it, and i never asked for your love either, but i didn’t mind it, and i was very clear and honest to why im here
The reason I liked you so much is because the idea that a rude and arrogant person such as yourself
I know you aren’t even gonna replay to me, so i will speak freely, without fear of consequences, you build an image of me, and you loved that image, but now you realized that this image is bad, and it goes back to childhood trauma, and you must dismiss the person who you think have this image, without any proof that this person may not have the qualities of this image, unfair if you ask me, if i meant anything to you besides this image, you would at least tell me why you are ending this conversation, but besides that image? Im nothing to you, who is using who now?
I may sound arrogant, and rude sometimes, but i was never dishonest, that was a claim based on the image you bulild, pure projecting, a proof of my honesty is my replies to both peter and teak, by calling me those things, you made me re consider myself, (im i really that bad? Am i really dishonest? How?) But its only a defense
it made me feel very special- something I yearned for a long time ago
I wish i knew you to tell you that you are
I don’t like you, and I am not at all apologetic about it.
Sure you don’t, that only proofs my theory, the very thing i like, which is “not much likes me in this world”, you aren’t the first nor the last, the question would be, did you ever liked me for myself? I wonder what self that would be, because im still the same guy that “can’t cry”, i never changed, always showed the good and bad in myself “i value nothing” “i only have one goal” i acknowledge the ugliest truths about myself, and you call me dishonest and manipulative, i just wonder when did i do this, while this whole conversation we were only talking about me, maybe im not seeing your pov, which i wish i heard, before you just throw words at me
I really hope i didn’t hurt you in any way, or didn’t trigger anything, and if i did, im sorry, i didn’t meant it, not consciously, why would i ? You the only person who was nice to me, i wished that i somehow give something back to you, anyhow it doesn’t matter now, i wish you a very pleasant life, take care anita, and i really mean thisJune 28, 2021 at 9:14 pm #382109
Murtaza: leave me alone, don’t address me or mention me anymore. Don’t bother me anymore. Try to be a good, honest person with everyone else, make this miserable world a bit better, don’t make it worse.
anitaJune 29, 2021 at 1:11 am #382115TeaKParticipant
you mentioned me in two of your recent posts, and considering the developments here, I feel like saying something.
I may sound arrogant, and rude sometimes, but i was never dishonest, that was a claim based on the image you bulild, pure projecting, a proof of my honesty is my replies to both peter and teak, by calling me those things, you made me re consider myself, (im i really that bad? Am i really dishonest? How?)
My impression is that you were rude and arrogant with me, but I ascribed it to a part of you, not the entirety of who you are. The rude and arrogant part is the protective part, who is there to protect you from pain. I’ve already explained it in my earlier posts. In one brief moment you showed an openness to learn more about healing (on page 8):
If you’d like to know some more, I’d be happy to answer.
yes more, without the need of therapy nor people, just me and as clear as you can be (meaning when you say accept anxiety, i want you to tell me what exactly do i say and do)
But very soon you abandoned the idea, saying you don’t have money for online therapy (and that there are no adequate therapists in Iraq – which I believe, specially since you had a bad experience with therapy in the past). When I mentioned quality online resources for free, e.g. videos of world-known expert in healing of trauma and addiction (dr. Gabor Mate), you stopped responding.
I also offered my help (which is of limited capacity, but still) here on the forum – if you were willing to share a bit more about your childhood. You never took the chance. All this told me that you’re not really interested in helping yourself get out of your present state. Basically, it means your protective part is very strong and you’re almost completely identified with it, and so the smidge of interest you’ve shown in therapy and healing was immediately squashed by it. I accepted it and indeed, silently withdrew.
What I can say however, is that I didn’t see you as manipulative or dishonest. You were the same all the time, rejecting all arguments, insisting you cannot or don’t want to change etc etc. You didn’t try to manipulate people on the forum, except that now, towards the end you said to anita that you might consider her argument if she gives you a good one. Which is not really true because there is no argument that can convince you to change your mind – to consider changing it one iota – at least for now.
The proof for that is that sometimes, when it suits you, you use science as a proof that you’re right, and in the very next breath you say you don’t trust science. That’s how you can dismiss any argument you don’t like, and fill up all potential “cracks” where you could be reached. The end result: your fortress is super strong and guarded from all sides.
So perhaps at the very end you were a little manipulative with anita, when you told her that if she presents a strong enough argument, you might consider it and even change – even though you knew there was nothing she could say to change your mind. But in general, taking the entire thread into consideration, I haven’t experienced you as manipulative or dishonest.
You did respond with nice words to anita, but I don’t think it was to manipulate her, but because she treated you kindly too. She expressed her love and appreciation for you, she said she doesn’t quite understand why she feels like she does, but she felt love for you.
You haven’t changed much throughout the course of the conversation, on page 11 you still claimed:
Here i am, no feelings, no desires, no goals, only consuming, like an animal, at least an animal doesn’t have awareness, the drugs has made me even more apathetic, more numb, i kinda like it, this is why i laugh at everything that happens to me, because its all just a big joke, all of this
But anita seems to have been hopeful that her love and affection might change you:
I don’t have any other answer that you will be open to consider: ever since you first posted last summer, your intention was never to consider my thoughts and suggestions (or anyone else’s). Never has it been your intention to be open to change your thinking (or to change other people’s thinking). Your intention with me was to get a bit of attention and affection. You manage to receive it, but my attention, affection and love really make no difference in your life, not practically, and not in any way that will make you less interested in dying.
You didn’t give her the reason to hope that you would change, but she still did hope, and then got disappointed. In my opinion, you haven’t mislead her or fool her – you were yourself all the way. Still unreachable, impenetrable, but true to your Protector. So I don’t see you as manipulative or dishonest.
Having said that, I am sorry you’re unreachable at the moment. I do sincerely hope that this will change for you, and that you will have the chance to live from your true self, which is imprisoned within the walls of that fortress.
June 29, 2021 at 11:16 am #382137PeterParticipant
- This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by TeaK.
I would like to say something about this idea of love being communicated.
When a relationship ends its common to hear someone say. “I don’t love you anymore”, – “you never did”…
Is it possible to end a relationship as a experience of Love?
Joseph Campbell* liked to tell this story of a samurai warrior, a Japanese warrior, who had the duty to avenge the murder of his overlord. After some time, the samurai found and cornered the man who had murdered his overlord. He was about to deal with him with his samurai sword, when this man in the corner, in the passion of terror, spat in his face. And the samurai sheathed the sword and walked away.
Whether the samurai kill the man as a act of honoring his code (his center of “being”), or anger the murder would be just as dead. However, this is not a story about the murderer nor is it a story about justice, mortality or even the code of the samurai. It is about acting from a place of ones “being”, ones truth, responding to life needs from ones authentic center.
If I say Love is the code from which I serve and respond to life, and someone has “murdered” – crossed a boundary that duty requires a response. It is possible to pursue that responsibility of accountability as an act of Love?
(I argue here that personal, social wellbeing… meaning, purpose, joy.. arise from a experience of being loved which cannot exist without the experience of getting to be accountable. That nothing we do or are could be experienced as mattering and or experienced as “being” loved without the experience of <i>accountability for the “good” and the “bad”</i>).
Love, accountability, responsibility, fear, hate, forgiveness, vengeance, justice, freedom… all have something in common. They all involve the setting boundaries. The question, from which do we draw on to build the boundary?
With regards to relationship, it might feel necessary to use the energy of anger to create the boundary to end a unhealthy relationship. Perhaps better to say ending contact, as that is also a kind of relationship?
The problem with creating a boundary using the energy of anger is that it burns and does not care what or who it burns. I would suggest that the boundary that ends a person relationship can be maintained from the energy of Love. Ether way a boundary is created. It is possible to create the boundary without damaging the ‘code’ in order to fulfill the ‘duty required of the code’
It may seem to be a impossible paradox, as a seeming paradox words fail… here is a riddle to ponder
“Stillness is what creates love,
Movement is what creates life,
To be still, Yet still moving
– That is everything!”
Do Hyun Choe
There is a time for everything even the creation of boundaries from a place of hurt that may not feel like love, yet it still may be.
From what I’ve observed Anita response to those seeking dialog always comes from a place of love even when healthy boundaries require a dialog relationship to end.
* Google Ep. 2: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth – interview with Bill MoyersJune 29, 2021 at 12:20 pm #382141
Thank you for replaying teak, i should say that i needed validation to know that im not those things, but i thought about it and validate myself
In one brief moment you showed an openness to learn more about healing
Not really, i just asked to be sure that its a lost case, because i knew long time ago that this is the cure and its unreachable for me
But very soon you abandoned the idea,
I will quote you here “its nearly impossible to heal without having the things you missed in your childhood” thus i abandoned the idea, cause its “nearly impossible” to get that in here, and for me
When I mentioned quality online resources for free, e.g. videos of world-known expert in healing of trauma and addiction (dr. Gabor Mate), you stopped responding.
Because i already know that this is just a waste of time, i already read books and watched videos, and did “healing” by myself, as you said, i need the things i missed in my childhood to heal, and those things requires another person
I also offered my help (which is of limited capacity, but still) here on the forum – if you were willing to share a bit more about your childhood. You never took the chance.
Your help is to “give explanation to why this is happened, and tell me what to do right now to make it better” while i appreciate your help, this doesn’t do much, i already know why i have all this, knowing won’t change a thing, and all the things you said, i was aware of them, i thought about my life for a long time before i make my decision, its bit silly “no offense” to someone to think about it for a few minutes and tells me about it, don’t you think?
All this told me that you’re not really interested in helping yourself get out of your present state
While its undertandable to think this way, but please don’t judge it from there only, i love myself, and im welling to do anything for it, just not the things you say or people say that “might” help, no i figure out my own life and the things that helps me, there isn’t any objective way to help people, there isn’t any objective way to live life, everybody should live according to his hands that he dealt
Basically, it means your protective part is very strong and you’re almost completely identified with it
No, I am the protective part, if you ever listened to the song i mentioned, you would understand
so the smidge of interest you’ve shown in therapy and healing was immediately squashed by it
I only asked you about therapy to validate myself, validate that its a lost case, and i was right
that you might consider her argument if she gives you a good one
If i remember correctly, i said that i might accept her argument, not consider it, i also mentioned this in last few replaies, and im gonna say this again, if you give a good argument, i might accept it, acknowledge the fact that you are right, “just like when you mentioned that therapy needs other people and that i need the things i missed in my childhood” i accepted this, acknowledge it as the right solution
Which is not really true because there is no argument that can convince you to change your mind
Just to be clear, im gonna repeat this point, yes there is no argument that will change me, but if you make a good argument i will accept it, i will have to, if it is true and logical
when it suits you, you use science as a proof that you’re right, and in the very next breath you say you don’t trust science. That’s how you can dismiss any argument you don’t like,
Didn’t i accepted that therapy requires other people? That us human beings need other people? And that the healing requires exactly that? Those all based on science, i only dismiss things that seem suspicious, for example you mentioned that there is plenty of evidence that there is freewill, but science never said there is one, there is plenty of evidence there is no freewill either, and what I’ve heard and saw, people only dismiss this argument because of the moral issues it brings, not because of science, no one wants to live in a world of chaos, i do trust science, not all of it, that would be stupid, and i sometimes make my own observations and ideas, because i respect my mind more then any “science”, science nowdays is very controlled by the masses
So perhaps at the very end you were a little manipulative with anita
Im not perfect, and if i ever did that it wasn’t consciously, and i didn’t manipulated her, i just manipulated the truth, its more like i fooled myself, if she said that i was dishonest with myself, i might accept that
you might consider it and even change
Thats a pure Strawman, i never said that i will change or consider it, but acknowledge that she is right and im wrong, there is a big difference
You didn’t give her the reason to hope that you would change, but she still did hope
I had a very strong opinion about my life and the things i want to do, and i never discussed them to change them, only to see what other opinions are there, “to see not to consider or change”
I am sorry you’re unreachable at the moment.
You don’t understand, i will always be like this, until death comes, im determined, thats why i wanna do it
and that you will have the chance to live from your true self
Its funny because there is no true self, there is no self, only the illusion, and science does say that, but most people does reject that because of the strong feeling of the illusion, but don’t take my word for it, wait for science unitl it confirms it (p.s he will never do that, because people won’t like it)
Though i think you mean the self i was given by my past and environment, i will never let it live for a few reasons, A. It like saddnes and being a victim, B. Very insecure, C. Very needy, and as you said those requires therapy to heal, well too bad, im not a fool, i won’t accept such self for a temporary reward, a possible reward, and i won’t accept it as long as im alive, because it conflicts with my goals, which im very determined to make it true, i will never change or let anyone or anything stops me from pursuing this goal, no feelings, no values, no people will ever change that goalJune 29, 2021 at 12:38 pm #382143ZeezaParticipant
I hope you don’t mind if I reply in your thread. If so please disregard this message.
Suicidal thoughts and living in isolation has been a theme of my life I call it history on repeat. What keeps me going is the science of building new neuron pathways. Our minds are flexible and the more we repeat things the new neuron pathways grow. I’ve spent years trying to make new memories new moments that aren’t fill with dread or the past coming to haunt me. There would be times I would become angry if someone hugged me because it felt so foreign and like a lie. It is hard to believe anyone cares when all you knew was what was dealt to you at a young age. Because of this I try to keep my mind as open as possible because my sense of the world can be skewed by fear.
do you like animals? Does looking at the sky for clouds and stars? Everyone is different but I have found this to be a safe space and peace of mind. I hope you can feel safe.
if I could go back in time 10 years ago when I was in my darkest hour of wanting to escape I would say you deserve to live and the best revenge is not letting the scars define identity. I don’t know if this is applicable or relatable to you but thought I would share because sometimes we need alternative evidence to see differently.
zeezaJune 29, 2021 at 12:52 pm #382144TeaKParticipant
Thank you for replaying teak, i should say that i needed validation to know that im not those things, but i thought about it and validate myself
As for the rest, I don’t want to argue or discuss further – you have a cemented opinion, and that’s it. I should say though that if you really had an interest in healing, you would find a way to scramble for at least one session, since you do have your father’s pension and seem to live a fairly pleasant life. It doesn’t seem like money should be such a huge problem for you, and even if it were, you could always get a temporary job to earn enough for the next session. But you don’t want to. And that’s fine, it’s your choice.
True self exists – because I’ve experienced it. It’s our essence. It’s pure love and compassion and willingness to help, and faith and trust and lack of fear. It’s also where our unique gifts and talents are stored. That’s what I was referring to, not your wounded self.