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wouldn’t be a mercy if i just ended my life?

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  • #380838
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    I am not very focused at this time, 4 pm on a very warm beginning-summer day, but reading some of your most recent posts made me smile, still smiling, feeling good about you- about you being YOU!

    I will be back to your thread in about 14 hours from now. I hope you are sleeping now, or very soon, it being 2 am where you are. Good night, Murtaza.

    anita

    #380852
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza,

    But I understand you don’t want to change your thinking. That’s your free will

    though why ? why did i chose not to want to change? you are missing something here, the reason behind our action

    “it’s not my lack of will to change – it’s how I am created”

    ok, why do i say that? why im more prone to do such thing instead of “healing” ?

    I’ve explained it in my previous post – because healing requires facing the old wounds, and that might be painful. It also requires admitting that you have needs, which is also painful. And lastly, even if you heal, it’s not a guarantee that you won’t be hurt and rejected again, which might cause you new pain. All those are reasons to stay in the status quo – basically to avoid pain. You think it’s easier.

    but where does this action come from? where does the desire to change our thinking come from? is it really free? how so?

    There’s a famous quote by Anais Nin: “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”

    This is usually when the decision to change happens: when the pain of staying in the status quo, stagnating, fearing, suffering, not living from our true self… becomes larger than the pain we might experience when we choose to come out from our protective shell and give ourselves a chance.

    You have been living in your protective shell for quite a long time, and I am glad that you actually agree with my notion that you came up with the entire philosophy and belief system, so you could stay protected from pain:

     It’s a belief system, a mental construct, which serves a purpose. And I believe the purpose is to protect you from pain which you don’t want to experience again.

    sounds smart move if you ask me.

    guilt is so strong that made me make a new value system and philosophy

    Yes, it’s a smart move, it keeps you from one kind of pain, but it still makes you miserable. It’s like a patient refusing surgery because he’s afraid of the treatment and prefers to live with a broken limb. Or decides it’s best to end his life, because broken limb causes too much pain. Is it really smart?

    Healing is possible, but you’d need to be willing to dismantle the protector, and it seems like you’re not willing to do that, at least not at the moment.

    in iraq? forget it

    And elsewhere?

     

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by TeaK.
    #380867
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    First, an experience I had at the taproom last time I was there, Sunday early evening: I wasn’t paying much attention to the conversation until I heard the word “birdman”, and it brought back to my mind that you used the word, it being the title of a movie that you like very much. It made me think of you, Murtaza, being right there at the taproom that evening! I paid attention to what was said: a local man whose family has lived in this town (where I live in the last 7 years) for generations, an attorney who writes about the town’s history, was talking  about a research he has done, in which he discovered that the “Birdman of Alcatraz” was a cousin of his, a second cousin I think, who lived right outside our town for some time before he was incarcerated. The Birdman of Alcatraz (Robert Franklin Stroud, 1890-1963) was one of the most notorious criminals in the U.S., spending 54 years in various prisons, until his death.  During his time in prisons, including Alcatraz (1942-1959), he became a respected ornithologist, studying and writing about birds, earning his title Birdman.

    Second, the rest of my post: (1) Yesterday you wrote that you did not start this thread asking for help: “my post wasn’t cry for help, it was and still stand as a logical argument”- let’s talk about your logic vs your emotions a bit:

    Yesterday, you wrote: “the past is already gone, and whatever has been produced from such past, can’t live here, and I have proofs of such”. Later you wrote “the past really makes the present, doesn’t it? sadly“- the second statement (the italicized) contradicts and negates the first statement. I think that the first statement was said when you were unemotional (emotion was not part of the statement), and the second statement was said when you were emotional (emotion was part of the statement).

    To have a true picture of reality that involves human emotions, it takes logic and emotion, both. Not only logic, or only emotion.

    (2) “I lost the desire to want to be helped.. when I had it before..  it made me feel like s***.. it made my suffering more”- so that’s why you are angry and impatient with those members who are truly trying to be of some help you. In the past, people who tried (or pretended to try) to help you- hurt you more.

    (3) “You know there is sociopath gene right?”- No. You are wrong about this: there is no sociopath gene.

    (4) To my “babies don’t talk, can’t have a conversation with a baby”, you responded with: “I really like how you avoid my question just because you don’t wanna say the ugly truth lol, I won’t insist though”- you got me, it is what I tried to do, and part of me knew it at the time. (It’s almost cute, isn’t it, the way I was avoiding the question, like a child..). Thank you for not insisting.

    (5) “I remember mentioning sexuality in my past post and you not liking such post.. though thank you for telling me”- you are welcome and thank you.

    (6) To my “If you then ignored my request”, you responded with “why on earth would I do that?”- people have done this, even recently in these forums, a member recently ignored my (reasonable, fair, simply and empathetically, kindly stated) request repeatedly, and kept doing what I requested to not do- being aggressive this way.

    (7) You wrote about who you are: “a human with a desire and goal to not be human, and that’s why I’m different”- different as in insane then. A human who desires to not be human is insane, says I (claiming to be sane at this time of typing these words). But then again, the sentence you wrote should be understood in the context of time- it was a product of your thinking at that moment when you typed it. It is not a permanent thought.

    anita

    #380880
    Murtaza
    Participant

    “the past is already gone, and whatever has been produced from such past, can’t live here, and I have proofs of such”

    what i meant by this, is that i can’t accept my inner child needs and persona, it simply can’t live in this world, a part of my inner child is insecurities and my mother raising, bad raising, especially for a man, so i won’t accept such persona just because my luck was bad, i really can’t live with myself accepting such persona

     

    the past really makes the present, doesn’t it? sadly

    that is the fact, the thing is even though i repress this persona, i still have some qualities of it (the easy way) (dreamy thinking), but i think im getting better with those, i can’t change who i am completely though, this is why i accepted some good qualities from this persona (the easy way) (being kind)

     

    It’s almost cute, isn’t it, the way I was avoiding the question, like a child

    i do think its cute, but a respectable way to not answer a question

     

    different as in insane then

    yes :D, though what’s you definition of insane? a doctor i went in the past diagnosed me with mid paranoia, it might be linked to that, but again he wasn’t that good of a doctor, i remember reading about paranoia that people with it tend to label people, although i almost meet no symptoms, at least in my pov

     

    It is not a permanent thought

    im really welling to take the label insane in order to prove that im different 😀

     

    though its interesting that you meet such people in the taproom, it must be a one time thing

    #380882
    Murtaza
    Participant

    because healing requires facing the old wounds, and that might be painful. It also requires admitting that you have needs, which is also painful. And lastly, even if you heal, it’s not a guarantee that you won’t be hurt and rejected again, which might cause you new pain. All those are reasons to stay in the status quo – basically to avoid pain. You think it’s easier.

    (begging the question) yes, but why some people do this healing, and i choose not to do this healing ? you avoid the question, why do i choose the easy way, and some people don’t ?

     

    There’s a famous quote by Anais Nin: “And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”

    appeal to authority

     

    This is usually when the decision to change happens: when the pain of staying in the status quo, stagnating, fearing, suffering, not living from our true self… becomes larger than the pain we might experience when we choose to come out from our protective shell and give ourselves a chance

    black and white

     

    It’s like a patient refusing surgery because he’s afraid of the treatment and prefers to live with a broken limb

    its really not the same

     

    Or decides it’s best to end his life

    it is, all his future and present pain will go away

     

     

    because broken limb causes too much pain. Is it really smart?

    personal incredulity

     

    and I am glad that you actually agree with my notion that you came up with the entire philosophy and belief system

    (false cause) i don’t agree, its a possibility, not a fact

     

    though i still like how sure you are about everything you say, like its a fact, even though you are talking about me, a person that you have no clue who he is, only from what i said here, you think all my problems come down to emotion, well i guess thats your freewill
    <h1></h1>

    #380884
    Peter
    Participant

    So anyone who challenges your thinking must disagrees with it

    no, though why challenge such thinking ? what would be the point?

    To learn and engage with others, to develop better arguments?

    No one as you point out can fully understand another. If the criteria with engagement with another is that they must fully understand you  and where understanding means agreeing 100% with your life philosophy and never challenge you… I don’t think that’s makes for healthy relationship. One thing I am certain of is that relationships challenge everyone involved. Perhaps its one of their purposes as they create the crucible for growth and becoming. (I assume here that Life desires/demands growth) It’s perplexing or a wonder as a relationship may be experience as healthy or unhealthy, the possibility of growth is always present. More madding that it often takes a unhealthy relationship to create the growth.

    If I understand your argument you believe that the accumulative past experiences will eventually become hardcoded and so determine a individual reaction to the present moment. That argument can’t be disproved as you can always say that anyone who questions it only questions it because of their past, their nature and nurture have conditioned them, its in the gens, at at some tipping point can’t be changed?

    i asked you a simple question, if you really do have freewill, can you say NO to life? not only saying no, but having the same attitude and beliefs as someone saying no, its a hypothetical question i know, but tell me what do you have to do to end up saying No? cause you really can’t, you simply say yes, lucky i would say

    Not really a simple question: My view on freewill is that we have it but that it is very difficult to exercise. Between stimulus and response, the time between the unconscious and conscious, measured to be about a half second, we react or respond. In that half second the present becomes the past (filtered by our past and future hopes).

    A person may practice meditation and mindfulness to make the gap between the unconscious and conscious as small as possible. The do this by making the filters conscious. A skillful practice removes the unhelpful filters as well as any cognitive distortions we may have. This creates the possibility of influencing the experience of the present. It does not change the present only the experience of the present which then becomes memory, and then may or may not become part of a filter through which future stimulus will be processed.  A filter replacing a filter, the reflection of the present moment  always a reflection of the past, there is always a gap. (perhaps a Buddha might be able to remove the gap)

    My personal experience has shown me that mindful reflection can change the experience of memory/past and that doing so has change the experience of the present. The painful experience of a relationship ending can be the worst experience of someone’s life, then latter discovering that experience lead to personal growth and strength. From one perspective that’s just messed up, from another amazing. Both experiences now in the past as memory combined, bitter sweet. Is their choice in how the present will be experienced with such a past, now memory?

    I don’t know, your argument still stands, maybe its all determined by our gens or maybe its all an illusion. Yet even so, a Buddhist might say one approach to such a illusion may be more skillful then the other. A philosopher may say either way you are accountable. Was that an exercising of freewill? I can’t prove it.

    With regards to the idea of answering Yes and No to Life. I grew up the the semiconscious notion that because of ‘sin’, man broke life, but could fix it, usually by following the rules and being ‘good’. This notion in hind sight was really saying No to Life but we can fix it!

    In the first half of life this was very useful as it gave me meaning and purpose, Energy to engage with life. Not so much as it was but as I was trying to shape it. Some are able to maintain that view point but in my opinion, only if they refuse to look at life as it is. I could not and hit my head against the problem of , pain/evil – the problem of duality, the problem of opposites.  This turned to a time of depression, when my response to Life was a ‘No get me off this ride’.

    That prove very unhelpful. After much search of how others dealt with this response/reaction to Life I explored a response of Yes. This response didn’t change the past or present however it did change my experience of my past and imagined future. Its difficult to describe as its a personal subjective experience. As a taste I would describe it as bitter sweet. (the teste of life?) There is a sense of peace, even contentment but also sorrow that comes with a Yes, which feels like a paradox but isn’t. A Yes does not look away from the reality of Life but flows with it

    Today I move from No let me off this ride and a Yes, the challenge has been falling into a trap of indifference. Can a person remain still as they dance with life? To be contemplative and act, knowing their actions will end as all actions do?

    Their is the practice of sand painting. The artist spend hours creating a masterpiece, takes a movement to ‘see’ it and then destroys it. Such is Life as it is. Can their be pleasure in the creating and a detachment of the inevitable end of all things, all moments? This is what I wonder… My own experience answers… maybe. I’m a work in progress , each moment a practice that starts anew.

    When I find myself distraught. I take a breath and ask myself, how am I in this moment responding to Life. Most of the time its a reactive No, I don’t want to play. The dis-ease most often arising not from the moment but my reaction of No. Wishing to ‘fix’ Life, that it be other, and not wanting to play.  In the next breath I attempt to be more skillful with my answer and sometimes even succeed. This of course does not disprove your theory of Life.

    #380885
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    “I do think it’s cute, but a respectable way to not answer a question”- I  want to make sure this is not a typo: you meant respectable, not disrespectable?

    “what’s your definition of insane?”- in the context I mentioned it: a human with the desire and goal to not be human.

    “A doctor.. diagnosed me with mild paranoia”- I don’t see it.

    “I’m really willing to take the label insane in order to prove that I’m different”-no need: I declare you DiFfErEnT! No labels required.

    “What I meant by this, is that I can’t accept my inner child needs and persona, it simply can’t live in this world..”- following these kinds of thoughts is too difficult for me and it is useless because nothing good comes of it. Others may enjoy addressing your mix of logic and illogic, sanity and insanity. I quit.  We have other things to talk about, simpler things, nicer things. I am smiling right this moment because it feels nice to be talking to you, to know that you exist in  this world.

    anita

    #380887
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza,

    and I am glad that you actually agree with my notion that you came up with the entire philosophy and belief system

    (false cause) i don’t agree, its a possibility, not a fact

    If it’s a possibility, how do you relate to it? Does it help you expand your perspective a bit, or you want to dismiss it? In fact, I am sure that one part of you wants to dismiss it (it’s your protector), but is there another part of you who considers it helpful?

    #380889
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    I think that you are very intelligent (evaluating your intelligence from the position of my intelligence, of  course). Based on my interactions with you here, and witnessing your interactions with other members, I admire you for not being a people-pleaser, for not submitting/ bending over so to accommodate others’ feelings and motivations, for not faking being nice… for being as honest as you are, for standing for what you believe (and for what you don’t believe), for asserting yourself.. for being a fighter (in the context of interacting with members), for not presenting yourself to members as less-than.

    When I mentioned your mix of logic and illogic, sanity or insanity- this is a mix that probably all people exhibit, but I delight in my free will to not engage in such when I don’t feel like it, or when I had enough (especially when you did not ASK for help in regard to your cognition!) But this does not mean that I don’t want to talk with you- it just means that I am not going to respond to a lot of you saying something and then un-saying, or twisting a thought this way and that way, so to deliver this or that message. But I do acknowledge your cognitive creativity (impressive! Especially considering you live in a conservative, Islamic society).

    I was thinking earlier what I would like to talk to you about and I had a few ideas. (Nothing that is directed to change you and the way you live your life). I hope you are okay at this time, 1:31 am your time. I wonder how you spend your day and what you do (that which would be appropriate to share) when you are awake every night, seems like, way into the early hours of the morning.

    anita

    #380918
    Peter
    Participant

    I’m taking a social media break.

    Just wanted to say thank you for challenging me Murtaza. I hope it didn’t feel like we were gaining up on you.

    #380933
    Murtaza
    Participant

    i remember i once talked to an old lady, around 50, the place in which we talked was strange, it was online of course, she understood me and accepted me in a time where i was so alone, it was back in 2019, feels like forever to me, anyway, as we talked she mentioned that i should join Buddhism, because i don’t like to fulfil my desires, i thought about it, and didn’t see much trouble in such life, though i would suffer greatly because of my need for love and intimacy, though i wanted to remove such need, or at least make it less, so that i don’t be so desperate for it, there must be something wrong, needing it that much, maybe its that i don’t love myself ? another responsibility, another fear of not doing such responsibility, another guilt, and here i am, exactly what i wanted, very chill and relaxed, most of my days, don’t have my basic needs, but not much bothered about it, unless when the days i have GAD, then i begin to worry about the future, what’ve could done, what i didn’t already do, worry after worry after worry, a storm of bad feelings and thoughts, there is a lot of things im grateful for having in this life, that i might be able to have them if i didn’t had this life, my little sister, not only we understand each other, but know most of our qualities, we love each other, i like how she look at me, waking up and not having any responsibility, eating my favorite breakfast, slowly and at peace, while listening to piano music,  smoking in the roof, while listening to my favourite songs, thinking about life, and just taking my time, then getting down, with the possibility to do anything with my time, doing/not doing, without having any guilt or shame, that i must do something, without having the care for time, just living, going with the flow, not worrying, enjoying what i have, so am i miserable? maybe, but am i am contented with myself, at least when i don’t have GAD or any other problem, another thing is that finding someone like you anita, not only understand me, but love me, when i have my bad days, and i hear this voice “nobody will ever love you for who you are” i can remind myself, i have a proof now, that this is possible, to be able to keep this voice away, what i like about this love is that it doesn’t come from just anyone, no, it comes from a very wise and intelligent person, that’s why it has value, because the person knows me, i couldn’t ask for anything more.

    #380934
    Murtaza
    Participant

    i will replay soon to you (peter and teak and anita)

    #380938
    anita
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza:

    It is true, you do have the proof: your sister loves you, and online, another very real person (me) loves you too. In over six years of daily participation in this website, I did not use the word love in this simple, direct way, not a single time. And now, it is so simple, to just say these words: I love you.

    anita

    #381209
    Murtaza
    Participant

    If it’s a possibility, how do you relate to it?

    i would say that a young lonely boy did what he can

     

    Does it help you expand your perspective a bit, or you want to dismiss it?

    its a good hypothesis actually, so no i don’t dismiss it, otherwise i wouldn’t have mentioned it

     

     I am sure that one part of you wants to dismiss it

    sure, but that doesn’t change the fact that it still a solid hypothesis, that i acknowledge

     

    but is there another part of you who considers it helpful?

    its funny you mention parts, well there is a song, when i wanted to suicide i told my sister to listen to it, to know me, and my struggles, she didn’t liked it ofcourse, anyhow, if you wanna know what parts im in you should check it out (im the devil-lil b), to answer your question, i do think that i might did this whole thing to escape feeling bad, but this whole thing is based on truths, mostly, unless i get sneaky and use my own definitions, and im not just emotion (your claim that i did this whole thing for the only one goal), there is a mind that think and value things (truth), the truth is, i don’t wanna change, and i came here to have what i don’t have from the outside world, love accepting and understanding, and i already did, and im satisfied.

    #381214
    TeaK
    Participant

    Dear Murtaza,

    to answer your question, i do think that i might did this whole thing to escape feeling bad,

    okay, so you see (or potentially acknowledge) that you’re not created differently, in a way that guarantees misery, but that you’ve come up with a belief system which tells you you’re a victim of bad programming. When it’s much more likely that you are a victim of bad upbringing…

    but this whole thing is based on truths, mostly, unless i get sneaky and use my own definitions

    It is based on the truth of life as you experienced it. But did you know that the child’s neocortex (the thinking part of the brain) starts developing only at the age of 2, when we start speaking. Before that time, the child cannot think rationally, it can only absorb impulses and sensations from the environment, and can only feel: pleasant vs unpleasant, expanding vs contracting, warm vs cold, anxiety vs calm. Mom’s face smiling vs mom’s face sad/angry. Mom caressing me vs mom hitting me.

    For the entire 2 years the child just feels and absorbs like a sponge, and only later it starts giving meaning to the experience. So if a child is born into a violent home, his basic experience of life is that of anguish, anxiety, coldness, harshness, terror. Such child starts thinking that the entire world is a hostile and dangerous place. He/she bases his conclusions on his personal experience, which he sees as the entire truth.

    So when you say, it’s the truth – yes, it’s your truth. And it started first in your bones and tissues, not in your mind. It started with negative bodily and emotional experiences, and only after that you made a conclusion, with your rational mind, about yourself and the world.

    im not just emotion (your claim that i did this whole thing for the only one goal), there is a mind that think and value things (truth),

    Definitely, you’re not just emotions. But I’ve just explained, and it’s backed by neuroscience, how it all starts with emotions and bodily sensations, with the so-called “felt sense”. We build our “truth” i.e. our perception of reality based on those very visceral experiences. Luckily, it’s possible to change those early emotional/bodily imprints, so that they don’t define our adult lives. That’s what healing is all about….

     

    • This reply was modified 5 days, 16 hours ago by TeaK.
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